Superchargers & Reliability?

[Simmoyo]

Hey guys, I'm thinking of taking the FI leap. As I'm told, a supercharger wont degrade the engine as much as a turbo... plus its easier to set up.

What would experienced owners say about:
- Reliability
- Fuel economy
- For a daily car?

Anyone know of a second hand kit and where to get it installed for a good price?

Thanks

[trism]

I've heard the opposite.

If you use a positive displacement/rootes style supercharger, they develop boost from 0 revs, so the inside of the engine is always under higher pressure, as opposed to above 2krpm in a turbo or centrifugally supercharged engine.

Just means more stress on rods and pistons.

[euromandeluxe]

Most kits available are centrifugal, right?

[Simmoyo]

Aren't centrifugal's the best? and if you don't always drive hard then there wouldn't be too much strain on the engine coz it only kicks in at high revs I think

[trism]

A centrifugal supercharger works the exact same way as a turbo, but its driven off the crank shaft, as opposed to by exhaust gasses.

So it will have the same nothing nothing nothing BOOOOOOOOSSSSTT feel as a turbo. They also require the fitment of BOVs.

[trism]

Most kits available are centrifugal, right?

The most common (or rather, well known) kit for Honda motors is the J's Racing kit, which is a roots style that bolts up in place of the intake manifold.

Centrifugal kits for b series are avaliable, but tthey mount the supercharger near the dizzy, and run a driveshaft along the side of the rocker cover. Looks kinda ugly IMO.

[Simmoyo]

Would that mean you'd need to get an intercooler if you got a roots supercharger and used it at say 10 psi?

I was thinking of spending 3k on a second hand kit + installation but it doesn't look possible with all the extra's lol

[dlai5552]

Stay NA, and beat those booster mofo's around the track! haha

[trism]

Would that mean you'd need to get an intercooler if you got a roots supercharger and used it at say 10 psi?

I was thinking of spending 3k on a second hand kit + installation but it doesn't look possible with all the extra's lol

An intercooler is difficult on a J's racing kit, because it needs to get sandwhich between the charger and the block. And sometimes there isn't enough room because of things bolted to the firewall.

But if you run too high boost, without one, there has been cases of getting so hot, it starts to melt and warp the head!!

[u mad?]

An intercooler is difficult on a J's racing kit, because it needs to get sandwhich between the charger and the block. And sometimes there isn't enough room because of things bolted to the firewall.

But if you run too high boost, without one, there has been cases of getting so hot, it starts to melt and warp the head!!yikes!

[Simmoyo]

Stay NA, and beat those booster mofo's around the track! haha

sadly... this is starting to sound better every minute

[JamieP]

I recently put a Vortech supercharger in my car and I LOVE it! and your right, it works just like a turbo. The boost really kicks in at around 5-6k and from there on the pull leaves you giggling like a school boy who just saw his first set of boobs lol. In all seriousness though, as much as I loved my NA S2000, after going FI I could never go back to NA. I love having all this extra power. Im running a very conservative amount of boost (6.5 PSI and thats making 212 KW at the wheels!) and dont hammer it every time I drive it so Im quite confident that it wont do any real damage to my engine. Although I do plan on upgrading to bigger injectors in the very near future.

If you want some really good advice on going FI contact stevem355 on here. He's the guy who installed and tuned my car and he did a great job of it. He should be able to give you some really good advice

[Simmoyo]

I recently put a Vortech supercharger in my car and I LOVE it! and your right, it works just like a turbo. The boost really kicks in at around 5-6k and from there on the pull leaves you giggling like a school boy who just saw his first set of boobs lol. In all seriousness though, as much as I loved my NA S2000, after going FI I could never go back to NA. I love having all this extra power. Im running a very conservative amount of boost (6.5 PSI and thats making 212 KW at the wheels!) and dont hammer it every time I drive it so Im quite confident that it wont do any real damage to my engine. Although I do plan on upgrading to bigger injectors in the very near future.

If you want some really good advice on going FI contact stevem355 on here. He's the guy who installed and tuned my car and he did a great job of it. He should be able to give you some really good advice


Haha love it JamieP, thanks. I'm amazed at how much you got with only 6.5 psi! Do you notice any benefit at all in the lower range?

I'll contact him for sure, how much did it all cost you if you don't mind me asking?

[JamieP]

Oh definitely, its a lot more responsive in the lower range now as well. vtec also kicks in at 4 k too. But when you hit that higher rev range, you really feel it pull like crazy!

To do it right, its not a cheap thing to do. Originally I thought I could just get a cheap kit and install it and thats that. I purchased my kit for a bit over 4 gs shipped here from the states. I also purchased a haltech platinum computer and had to buy a few extra bits n pieces like oil lines etc etc. all up I spent just under 9 grand

[Simmoyo]

Wow... Do you think you'll ever need to upgrade the diff, axels, drive shaft... or can they handle it

[JamieP]

nah, they can handle it so long as your not being an idiot and doing heaps of hard launches

[ludecrs]

So much misinformation in this thread..

Jamie is right though. I had over 300KW@ the rears. Good fun. So much fun I lost my license in the process.

[Chulos2k]

Prob already been said before but reliabilty is all in the tune then its all up to how well you maintain it. The more power you make, more maintenance is required. I think its safe to say you will not regret it. Once you go boost you wont go back :)

[trism]

So much misinformation in this thread..



Instead of just saying that, explain what you mean.

[AusS2000]

So much misinformation in this thread..

Hey, it's OzHonda!!!

Seriously though, you can pretty much ignore all of page 1.

All FI solutions push air. Whether or not this is additional strain on the engine is not a result of revs, but throttle position. If you're not WOT (whole open throttle) much of that extra air will be vented off by the BOV (or bypass valve).

Also, I think someone is getting confused between J's Racing (Japanese tuning house) and Jackson Racing (US company formed by the Jackson family). To my knowledge J's don't make an FI kit and certainly not a PD supercharger. Jackson made several for the B and D series engines but not for the F20C. There was a PD supercharger for the S2000 made by someone but I don't believe it's in production anymore.

A centrifugal supercharger is driven by the crank but due to the scroll like design of the centrifugal compressor produces boost in direct proportion to RPM. At low revs it produces very little. At redline it produces it's maximum output. This is not ideal for the S2000 as it has such a long rev range. If your centrifugal SC produces 6.5psi at 9000rpm, at VTEC changeover point (6000rpm) it's probably only producing 4psi.

If you see this as a benefit we'll have to agree to disagree.

Contrary to popular opinion the 'nothing, nothing BOOOST' idea of a turbo is incorrect or at least outdated. If you purchase a properly sized turbo for your application you will not even notice the supposed 'turbo lag'. Even the Greddy kit (basic, but out top-ends the basic Comptech and Vortech kits) is at full boost by about 4000rpm. My ball bearing GT3076R peaks at 21psi but producing 16psi by about 6000rpm. Turbo lag my arse.

So basically my turbo produces way more top end than any of these kits, and has a much bigger midrange, yet unless I choose to put my foot down (and I often do ;) ) puts no more strain on the engine than NA.

[lilthug]

dont you get instant boost going supercharger?

[AusS2000]

dont you get instant boost going supercharger?

Not in the S2000 forum.

[lilthug]

Not in the S2000 forum.

?????

[AusS2000]

The instant boost idea comes from 'positive displacement superchargers'. The SC's for the S2000 are not PD, they are centrifugal.

[lilthug]

thanks for clearing that up for me

[Simmoyo]

Hey, it's OzHonda!!!

Seriously though, you can pretty much ignore all of page 1.

All FI solutions push air. Whether or not this is additional strain on the engine is not a result of revs, but throttle position. If you're not WOT (whole open throttle) much of that extra air will be vented off by the BOV (or bypass valve).

Also, I think someone is getting confused between J's Racing (Japanese tuning house) and Jackson Racing (US company formed by the Jackson family). To my knowledge J's don't make an FI kit and certainly not a PD supercharger. Jackson made several for the B and D series engines but not for the F20C. There was a PD supercharger for the S2000 made by someone but I don't believe it's in production anymore.

A centrifugal supercharger is driven by the crank but due to the scroll like design of the centrifugal compressor produces boost in direct proportion to RPM. At low revs it produces very little. At redline it produces it's maximum output. This is not ideal for the S2000 as it has such a long rev range. If your centrifugal SC produces 6.5psi at 9000rpm, at VTEC changeover point (6000rpm) it's probably only producing 4psi.

If you see this as a benefit we'll have to agree to disagree.

Contrary to popular opinion the 'nothing, nothing BOOOST' idea of a turbo is incorrect or at least outdated. If you purchase a properly sized turbo for your application you will not even notice the supposed 'turbo lag'. Even the Greddy kit (basic, but out top-ends the basic Comptech and Vortech kits) is at full boost by about 4000rpm. My ball bearing GT3076R peaks at 21psi but producing 16psi by about 6000rpm. Turbo lag my arse.

So basically my turbo produces way more top end than any of these kits, and has a much bigger midrange, yet unless I choose to put my foot down (and I often do ;) ) puts no more strain on the engine than NA.

Nice answer.. So if your foot isn't flat but you're at 6000rpm will pressure be @ 16psi or closer to 1psi? Does that mean you wont get extra power unless you floor it?

21psi sounds scary

How many months do you think you knock off the engine every time you floor it lol

[lilthug]

Nice answer.. So if your foot isn't flat but you're at 6000rpm will pressure be @ 16psi or closer to 1psi? Does that mean you wont get extra power unless you floor it?

21psi sounds scary

How many months do you think you knock off the engine every time you floor it lol

closer to 1 in that situation

[s2kjn]

Hey, it's OzHonda!!!

So basically my turbo produces way more top end than any of these kits, and has a much bigger midrange, yet unless I choose to put my foot down (and I often do ;) ) puts no more strain on the engine than NA.

Better than this :P

http://www.inlinepro.com/s1/p-16-stage-2-s2000-turbo-kit.aspx

[ludecrs]

Aus needs to man up to the 26 pound plate :p

[JamieP]

Im not saying who and its not me (wish it was though!!!) but I know of an s2000 thats going to be running a 30 pound set in the very near future. Cant wait to see how it goes. But thats turbo so way off the topic of super charging

[Touge Tom]

You cold try running the centrifugal blower with a high boost pulley. And place a waste gate between it and the throttle body. So when you reach your desired boost. The excess will be vented off. I've heard of these type of setups on commodore v6-3.8's. But never seen it.

[AusS2000]

Aus needs to man up to the 26 pound plate :p

How many pounds you running these days in your AUTOmobile?

Seriously though, even at 26 hot psi at redline I am still at higher boost than you were in midrange.

[AusS2000]

I've heard of these type of setups on commodore v6-3.8's. But never seen it.

There's often a good reason for that.

BTW, 'wastegate's are valves that allow exhaust to bypass the turbine in a turbo system.

[AusS2000]

Nice answer.. So if your foot isn't flat but you're at 6000rpm will pressure be @ 16psi or closer to 1psi? Does that mean you wont get extra power unless you floor it?

It's more a case of how far down my foot is pressed. The more I have it down, the more boost I get. The car has absolutely stunning midrange when I want it and purrs like a kitten when I don't.

One thing I have noticed though is that in street driving my foot is almost never all the way to the floor. There is just so much torque aching to break traction that you have to be careful.

[Touge Tom]

I know what waste gate are and do. I know it very unorthodox methood, but instead of venting exhaust gas to steady the spool of a turbo. Why not run a higher boost pulley and have more boost come on earlier, and more low down to mid range torque. So the system acts more like a positive displacement blower.

[Simmoyo]

It's more a case of how far down my foot is pressed. The more I have it down, the more boost I get. The car has absolutely stunning midrange when I want it and purrs like a kitten when I don't.

One thing I have noticed though is that in street driving my foot is almost never all the way to the floor. There is just so much torque aching to break traction that you have to be careful.

I want your car Aus

[AusS2000]

Too-gay (sorry, response to your sig), I have 'heard' of this sort of set up too but those that have tried it found it to be unreliable and inaccurate clunky mechanical method to try to cap boost. I'm not familiar with anyone who has been successful with it but would be happy to be proved wrong.

[Touge Tom]

If I had the funds. Id take you up on that challenge. Bout time someone understood my Sig.

[ludecrs]

How many pounds you running these days in your AUTOmobile?

Seriously though, even at 26 hot psi at redline I am still at higher boost than you were in midrange.


AUTOmobile. :lol: I'm in tears

People need to remember a turbo WILL ALWAYS be more efficient than a s/c.


Bleeding the BOV by running a higher PSI pulley has been done a few times. Mostly with fail, but up until recently success on s2ki.

[Simmoyo]

People need to remember a turbo WILL ALWAYS be more efficient than a s/c.




How?

edit: So the best bang for buck is a centrifugal s/c- cheap, easy, simple as piss and no need for an intercooler?

[AusS2000]

The main reason is that it takes engine power to drive a supercharger. So there is an immediate loss there.

Exhaust pressure and heat is effectively wasted energy, and a turbo makes use of this energy and uses to force air into an engine.

[Touge Tom]

What does to op want? High end power or more low down torque. Facts are turbos are better compressors. But I gotta say. I do prefer the immediate torquey feel of a twin screw. Imo, centrifugal blowers have more cons then pros. No bottom end torque and produce their power too late.

[Simmoyo]

- First I wanted more torque down low

learned = must be a turbo or something that does not run off the crank

- Then I wanted to know if I'd cut my cars life span in half if I got FI

learned = if I spend the cash, get a good ECU, tune it properly, not be a retard and keep it maintained = should be sweet

- Now I'm thinking whether its worth it or not?

.... sounds like it is if you can build an engine with your eyes closed

[s2kjn]

No need to build an engine. I too am in the hunt for a turbo kit - most probably the one posted before in this thread. I have contacted suppliers overseas, and they have advised that it is not neccessary to do so. There are a whole heap of FI s2k owners on s2ki that run over 400whp on the stock engine. Some even said that they have even kept the stock HG.

Aus himself is running near that amount of power (correct me if i;m wrong mate), and he's running on the stock engine too. Just to be safe though, I wil be getting a hg, dual springs/titanium retainers from inline pro for a small fee ontop of what they quoted me.

[Simmoyo]

No need to build an engine. I too am in the hunt for a turbo kit - most probably the one posted before in this thread. I have contacted suppliers overseas, and they have advised that it is not neccessary to do so. There are a whole heap of FI s2k owners on s2ki that run over 400whp on the stock engine. Some even said that they have even kept the stock HG.

Aus himself is running near that amount of power (correct me if i;m wrong mate), and he's running on the stock engine too. Just to be safe though, I wil be getting a hg, dual springs/titanium retainers from inline pro for a small fee ontop of what they quoted me.

Nice, what about an aftermarket ECU, petrol pump and exhaust? by the time its all done i'm estimating its going to cost around 10k. What I meant by "building an engine with your eyes closed" is that you'd have to be pretty clued up to keep the turbo running without damaging the engine otherwise it will cost more if you have to pay to keep it tuned and maintained

[s2krazie]

Thought Aus was running a stroked 2.3? engine.

[s2kjn]

Nice, what about an aftermarket ECU, petrol pump and exhaust? by the time its all done i'm estimating its going to cost around 10k. What I meant by "building an engine with your eyes closed" is that you'd have to be pretty clued up to keep the turbo running without damaging the engine otherwise it will cost more if you have to pay to keep it tuned and maintained
Engine & fuel management come with the kit included in the package.
As for exhaust, I've already got that covered on mine. There's no way I would stick a single exit exhaust on my car. Soo ugly IMO. But yes, $10k is around the mark as the kit will cost $7k shipped and I'll get a diff upgrade for about $3k. Then will need to get gauges and a few other tweaks

[Simmoyo]

Engine & fuel management come with the kit included in the package.
As for exhaust, I've already got that covered on mine. There's no way I would stick a single exit exhaust on my car. Soo ugly IMO. But yes, $10k is around the mark as the kit will cost $7k shipped and I'll get a diff upgrade for about $3k. Then will need to get gauges and a few other tweaks

Very nice... please keep us updated because it sounds like you're going to have a mean setup very soon.

I looked at other good looking convertibles for the price of our cars plus 10K, and nothing comes close to the 300rwkw that some people are pushing out.

I'd say its 10k well spent.

But back to the original question...

Any long term side affects from having FI? Does reliability go from "Honda" to "French made car"?

[son of eevil]

Very nice... please keep us updated because it sounds like you're going to have a mean setup very soon.

I looked at other good looking convertibles for the price of our cars plus 10K, and nothing comes close to the 300rwkw that some people are pushing out.

I'd say its 10k well spent.

I know a man with a Z3 that has a supercharged 1UZ-FE under the bonnet.

Car cost him $10, $1.5k for the engine did the work himself. Not sure what Tue total bill was bit it'd have to be less then $30k.

[AusS2000]

Thought Aus was running a stroked 2.3? engine.

Nup, stock block, although rebuilt by me. There's a thread on it on S2ki:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=470839

[emjays2k]

If you seriously are thinking FI, I would be looking at these kits.

Much more efficient than the US kits and much better R&D too.

http://www.rotrexsuperchargers.co.uk/Rotrex/pages/products/cars/s2000/prod_s2000.html

Only problem is the £ conversion :(

[Simmoyo]

wow good find.. the price includes a fuel pump and injectors so maybe not too bad