200fwkw from K24/20 - Possible?

[spetz]

Hi guys,

Out of curiosity are there any K series NA engines which can produce 200+ kw atw on pump gas?

[jdm18c]

I believe dr Honda did a build stroked to 2.5l and made 198kw

[Chr1s]

Theoretically, it's possible. Using the following assumptions and conditions

Peak power @ 8500rpm
100% Volumetric Efficiency
35% Mechanical Efficiency
98RON Fuel
10% Drivetrain Loss
12.8 AFR (Assumed maximum energy output for gasoline)
87x99mm

I result with 213kW at the wheels.

[jdm18c]

Just depends on how big your budget is

[u mad?]

Theoretically, it's possible. Using the following assumptions and conditions

Peak power @ 8500rpm
100% Volumetric Efficiency
35% Mechanical Efficiency
98RON Fuel
10% Drivetrain Loss
12.8 AFR (Assumed maximum energy output for gasoline)
87x99mm

I result with 213kW at the wheels.

how much would it cost realistically to build a motor like this? $20k +?

[TODA AU]

Theoretically, it's possible. Using the following assumptions and conditions

Peak power @ 8500rpm
100% Volumetric Efficiency
35% Mechanical Efficiency
98RON Fuel
10% Drivetrain Loss
12.8 AFR (Assumed maximum energy output for gasoline)
87x99mm

I result with 213kW at the wheels.

Boffin... :p

[u mad?]

In the slang of the United Kingdom, boffins are scientists, medical doctors, engineers, and other people engaged in technical or scientific research.

[EKVTIR-T]

Keep it clean guys,spam in spam thread

And OP the answer is yes

[GSi_PSi]

spetz - why so curious about k series engines lol, every now and again post up a thread asking questions

[spetz]

Theoretically, it's possible. Using the following assumptions and conditions

Peak power @ 8500rpm
100% Volumetric Efficiency
35% Mechanical Efficiency
98RON Fuel
10% Drivetrain Loss
12.8 AFR (Assumed maximum energy output for gasoline)
87x99mm

I result with 213kW at the wheels.

What if the rpm was raised, ie peak power at 9,000rpm?

@GSI_PSI, I want to build an engine (not a K motor) and I just want to know how it all works. When I say build an engine I don't mean have it built, but rather actually do it myself. It'd be a lot of fun

[Benson]

Hi guys,

Out of curiosity are there any K series NA engines which can produce 200+ kw atw on pump gas?

It's been done many times in America (backed up with 1/4mile).

Remember its not only the motor you need to get right, but also the supporting mods around the motor that will make it all work together.

If we can make 177kw on k20/k24 motor using OEM parts, i dont think it will be too hard to get it over 200kw chosing the right aftermarket components.

[jayeg]

Miss r integer has over 200kw atw google her car

[spetz]

Does it actually belong to a female?

[mocchi]

200 flywheel kilowatts. not at the wheels.

[TODA AU]

200 flywheel kilowatts. not at the wheels.
No, we're talking wheels...
It's not that hard* with a K24 with the right parts & tuning.
Maybe even on 98 pump fuel, E85 is no problem.

Edit: * Actually for some people it is cause they cut corners in the wrong places.

[mocchi]

No, we're talking wheels...
It's not that hard with a K24 with the right parts & tuning.
Maybe even on 98 pump fuel, E85 is no problem.

oh right, sorry title says fwkw.
NA right? not FI?

170kw+ for oem parts was really awesome.

[TODA AU]

oh right, sorry title says fwkw.
NA right? not FI?

170kw+ for oem parts was really awesome.

Yeah, normally aspirated...
Attention to detail is the key though.

[mocchi]

Yeah, normally aspirated...
Attention to detail is the key though.

would the powerband be peaky on max rpm or more wide and flat?
as in usable 200kw. in for more general parts info.

2.5" collector, straight through muffler or can be done with twinloop, 100cell cat, 3" vs 3.5" intake piping, IM design (rbc, rrc, rsp).
would love to see development with rsp IMs.

thanks adrian.

[TODA AU]

would the powerband be peaky on max rpm or more wide and flat?
as in usable 200kw. in for more general parts info.

2.5" collector, straight through muffler or can be done with twinloop, 100cell cat, 3" vs 3.5" intake piping, IM design (rbc, rrc, rsp).
would love to see development with rsp IMs.

thanks adrian.

Like this...

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/DRHondaK20K24Hybrid.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/NatK24DC5.jpg

[mocchi]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKEgRAHCtFUGQalXRo244iMXSZ31J9-n_WAYCQKx9GnbK7c17PJgwwYle-Qw

dat toda secret squirrel.

[u mad?]

Im guessing those two cars are using e85?

[TODA AU]

Im guessing those two cars are using e85?
Yep, both on E85. Both build K24's, Both with Toda F cams
Top one is Phil's (DrHonda) K26 - From memory is was B/C stroker kit, RSP intake manifold, 74mm throttle, R-Crex headers & ex etc...
2nd one is MissR K25 - 89mm bore, std 99mm stroke, IPS intake manifod & 74mm throttle, Toda headers, SK2 3" Ex etc

Below is IPS intake manifold vs PRB (AUDM DC5R) intake manifolds,
IPS + 74mm throttle + custom CAI (approx 1.3m length - 3"_
PRB + 70mm throttle + Injen CAI

Both tuned for best output, same engine combination (MissR)

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/PRBvsIPS2.jpg

IMO, the RRC is the way to go when chasing max output,
& the above combo with RRC & 70mm throttle & Injen would likey beat the IPS everywhere.

[EKVTIR-T]

200 flywheel kilowatts. not at the wheels.

At the wheels dude


Natalie is the owner of this DC5 Integra Type R, which she's been building over the past few years. Nat's a primary school teacher in Australia (I'm sure her students must love the fact she's a car nut!), but after hours she spends most of her time wrenching on her DC5. Powering her 'Teg is a fully built K24 which comprises of an ERL sleeved block, Wiseco pistons and Crower rods; while the K20A head has been retained (albeit with Supertech valvetrain and TODA Spec F camshafts). Although it's wearing drag wheels here, Nat's ITR is regularly street driven.
Her power output? 272hp (200.4kW) at the front wheels, as recorded on a Mainline chassis dyno!

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/04/12/random-snap-gt-gt-natalie-s-all-motor-dc5.aspx

http://www.hpheaven.com.au/records/dyno/official-national/4/n-a/no-nos/

[mocchi]

gat deym. im 99% sold on 70mm tb and rrc/rsp now.
70mm only at opening right? bore goes down to oem size at butterfly plate.

dyno dynamics > butt dyno

[fatboyz39]

Add a blower on it. 200kw will be a breeze :).

[TODA AU]

gat deym. im 99% sold on 70mm tb and rrc/rsp now.
70mm only at opening right? bore goes down to oem size at butterfly plate.

dyno dynamics > butt dyno
My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

[mocchi]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

thanks alot for the input adrian, many K series enthusiast will benefit from this.
i agree with rbc with bang for buck, rsp is way too expensive right now.

spoon 70mm tb looks promising with their 'venturi' effect design. 70mm opening, tapers down and gets wider again at IM side.
http://www.icbmotorsport.com/spkthbo.html

devil is in details, cant agree more.

[TODA AU]

If you're going to use a JDM throttle (TODA, SPOON, J's racing etc)
& fit it to an RSP, RBC or RRC,
Be sure to buy the CL7 throttle (RBC), not the DC5R one (for PRB/PRC)
Then there is no need for an adaptor plate & the IACV plug is imboard away from the radiator giving more clearence.

[spetz]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

Adrian, what makes the RRC manifold make so much more power?
And is there a hard formula behind it all, or is it trial and error, in the sense of these companies building one?

[fatboyz39]

RRC +1 :)

RRC has a slightly larger plenum. Runners 1 and 2 are slightly bigger then RBC. Thats what i can see when placing RBC and RRC next to each other.

[OMG.JAI xD]

Put 20" wheels with a SUV profile.
Easy 200kw atw.

At the wheel figures are dyno dependant.
My old prelude ran a 180 something on toda's dyno.
i ran it on a mainline dyno (still drive on) and it made 200kw.
Then put type S wheels on which increased the rolling diameter, and made 210kw.

When it comes to tuning its really comes down to how wide the powerband is and how much torque it produces between that power band.
A motorbike engine will have 100kw but f ck all torque. Put that 100kw engine in a car and the thing will go no where. (suzuki cappucinno does not count).

Simple answer to OP's question. Is, yes it is definately possible.
At the wheel, kilowatt figures are just bragging rights or selling points. ie. " New honda accord fitted with a 148kw engine ". Well I work for Audi, and a 2.0L TFSI with 125kw and mated to a 7 speed s tronic will eat the accord alive. And its a heavier car.

Also, saying " i have a 200kw n/a k20 " is more appealing to " I have a 265Nm n/a K20 ".

Power is not the key to everything. All about balance - Keiichi tsuchiya.

[Chr1s]

When it comes to tuning its really comes down to how wide the powerband is and how much torque it produces between that power band.
A motorbike engine will have 100kw but f ck all torque. Put that 100kw engine in a car and the thing will go no where. (suzuki cappucinno does not count).


I think you misunderstood the point of gearing... we're talking purely about engines here, I can put 100kw engine in an EG civic, gear it up correctly and it could blow the doors off a 150kw civic with shit gearing.

Torque does matter, but are they independent? No. If you want big power for a limited displacement, you need to rev...(look at f1)

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252

You can only do so much to gain torque due to the geometric constraints of the bottom end. So next viable option is to increase RPM, of course at the nerve of valvetrain and important balancing..,

It's pretty clear and Adrian has said it thousands of times already in this thread, most of you who haven't done this before (including myself) would have to spend thousands to get this right and actually put the number down of the theoretical maximum, the 213kW or whatever number I mentioned earlier is based of purely 100% VE and very low losses (35% M.E. is pretty much F1 standard) which means the engine is inhaling as much air as it can theoretically fit in the cylinder (ignoring ram charge effects which can potentially boost the VE to 107% etc..) and defining a certain fuel ratio for the given amount of air - hence power produced. You cannot go against that theory, it's physics..it's up to you to use your brain and understand that there is efficiency losses between manifolds, heads, supportive breathing mods, balancing, etc so that actual theoretical limit, drops - until you have developed an engine that overcomes all those little losses where you can see why I said it would cost thousands...

Do what's been done and tested, go off that.. and again - details...

It might be worth your time paying for consultation from someone who has done this before who can pretty much give you a list of what to head towards - but don't expect a silver platter.


/boffin :D

[Snoop_gee]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum
very clear consise info.
Thanks for that.

I have not changed much with the intake manifold or throttle body.
All this time i thought getting the 74mm skunk2 throttlebody and RBC was the path i was gonna take.
So it seems now the RSP would be something that i would like.
Whats the price of RSP cause already Mocchi is saying its expensive.

[trism]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

[mocchi]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

i think 150fwkw is k24a3 stock.
looking at cammed motor dyno thread, aarong's euro made 110-120kwatw?

rsp im is $500+usd at least, i know some ppl selling for $800+usd new. some guy in US was selling for 2g? lol.
a member here was parting out and he wanted $600-700aud but that was already modified so cant fit k24.
pretty much double price of rbc. please note im comparing US prices, not local honda au or australia rrp prices.

[Benson]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

You might need a set of cams to get you across the line

[spetz]

Guys these manifolds we are talking about, they are just standard manifolds? Or aftermarket?

[mocchi]

Guys these manifolds we are talking about, they are just standard manifolds? Or aftermarket?

all the IM toda mentioned are OEM.
except for ISP (Intrinsic Performance?) dont think they still in business.
i think IPS cams however still being sold by superior valve motion.

[u mad?]

rrc- from fd2r
rbc- from euro r
rsp- from fn2r

[DakDak]

very clear consise info.
Thanks for that.

I have not changed much with the intake manifold or throttle body.
All this time i thought getting the 74mm skunk2 throttlebody and RBC was the path i was gonna take.
So it seems now the RSP would be something that i would like.
Whats the price of RSP cause already Mocchi is saying its expensive.

Check this site, out I believe it may be of some use.
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SMR70 1&block_02=E__0301&block_03=10001

[williamwong]

hey mocchi, when they say fwkw i think they meant front wheel kw not fly wheel kw.

[mocchi]

god damn acronyms. sorry for the confusion.
will not use fwkw again.

[Snoop_gee]

Check this site, out I believe it may be of some use.
http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SMR70 1&block_02=E__0301&block_03=10001


thats a pretty good site but its broken down in that many parts.
I already have an existing Dc5 complete engine and gearbox i just need the intake manifold alone.

[dougie_504]

I have seen 200kw N/A from a DC5R. I believe it was the hot pink track car owned by 'Miss R' or whatever. Saw it at Autosalon 2010.

[GSi_PSi]

Miss r integer has over 200kw atw google her car



I have seen 200kw N/A from a DC5R. I believe it was the hot pink track car owned by 'Miss R' or whatever. Saw it at Autosalon 2010.

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11568/11845843.jpg

[Snoop_gee]

I have seen 200kw N/A from a DC5R. I believe it was the hot pink track car owned by 'Miss R' or whatever. Saw it at Autosalon 2010.


pahahah gets your facts straight first.

[mocchi]

adrian, if you could remember justin's (EUR003act) car.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?92924-***K24Z1-project-teaser***/page34

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff128/eur003/DYNO-TODALarge.jpg

was the red line using RBC?
or was the red line RSP un-tuned -> blue line RSP tuned?

[exquisit]

what is the optimal diameter and length for stockish/mild k24s with the usual bolt ons that seem to be on these days
ie. headers, one of the oem intake manis, 70mm tb, cams, 50* vct, etc?


My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

[trism]

Cost of parts and tuning aside, can ITBs on a k24 keep daily driveability/fuel economy reasonably, or does it blow out no matter how good the tune.

[TODA AU]

Cost of parts and tuning aside, can ITBs on a k24 keep daily driveability/fuel economy reasonably, or does it blow out no matter how good the tune.

No problem.
The accuracy of the tune is critical though.
Then you can have your cake & eat it so to speak.
+with airboxes etc there are no legal dramas.

[mocchi]

does anyone know the inlet manifold diameter size of RBC?

[EG5]

does anyone know the inlet manifold diameter size of RBC?
They are 64mm