modding a b16a2.

[Importsneezer]

Hey guys, I did a quick search but couldn't find anything.

I plan on modding my b16a2. Atm I have a Injen cai and I plan on putting it on the dyno first to see what it makes. So I know what my start off is.

I don't want to build anything crazy, if I was I know its smarter to do a conversion. But I'm just after abit more power out of the b16. No plans on tracking but I would like to in the near future.

Atm I plan on just getting a skunk2 intake manifold. And skunk2 68mm throttle body but I hear a dc2r tb is not too bad.

Got a spoon n1 axle plan on custom b pipe, high flow cat and headers. Unsure of what headers to get.

Now the next part is what I'm most curious of. Head work.

I do want to have a mild head, but I have no idea where to start. What brands to use, some ppl just dc2r cams and say it good. Iduno.



Any help is appreciated. Thanks. This is a work in progress and I plan to research as much as I can and start early next year.

[IV73CI]

Got a spoon n1 axle plan on custom b pipe, high flow cat and headers. Unsure of what headers to get.

Depends on if you want good top or bottom end, looks and budget.

i got DC Sports 4-1 Stainless Steel - its got alot of torque from 0-100 especially if matched with a CAI or short ram.

4-2-1 will be sluggish at the 0-100 but will provide good RPM response to mid-high ranges.




I do want to have a mild head, but I have no idea where to start. What brands to use, some ppl just dc2r cams and say it good. Iduno.

DC2R OEM cams are great as a cheap option - and u can run them using your OEM P2T ecu.

If you go branded stuff, you may want to consider matching valve springs, retainers, moly's and importantly programmable ECU to gain the full potential of the head work and you can rev out longer too.

Rule of thumb:

In any modification you decide on, consider the following;

- Fuel economy / consumption?
- Power vs drivability?
- Noise or quiteness?
- Rich or poor budget?
- Future plans with the car?

have a think and then decide from there.

Good luck with your plan bra.. and enjoy modding!

[stndrd]

I used to have DC sports 4-1 headers and now run 4-2-1 headers & personally, I believe my car is a hell of a alot quicker with the 4-2-1 headers. I had 102fwkw with the 4-1 headers (on a b18c) with 140nm but after going to the 4-2-1 headers I made a 15nm gain at around 4,000rpm and made 98fwkw/147nm @ the same rpm (approx 7,700rpm/6,200rpm). Remember kw wins pub battles, nm wins races.

When building your cylinder head, you need to ask yourself, are you chasing kw or nm and where abouts in the rev range are you wanting to make the most gains. At a minimum, I would match port your inlet/exhaust manifolds with your cylinder head, install a good set of valve springs with retainers (eg. Toda valve springs & retainers) and then think about camshaft profile & adjustable cam gears (as this will shift power & torque bands). Also depending on the size of cams/valves etc you go, you will have to upgrade fuel/ignition/ecu systems accordingly

[TheSaint]

i would recommend getting Fujita CAI over Injen
better quality all round and much better Pod design =)

i would also consider clutch and flywheel upgrades

[dougie_504]

Exhaust idea sounds good mate.

What is your budget? This is the most important question.


I have built my b16a head. Skunk2 cam shafts/gears, Supertech springs/retainers, Jun oversized valves, ported + matched manifolds, ITR TB/IM, re-welded combustion chambers etc.

It's not worth it for the price you pay and the gains you make! But if you insist I would recommend shaving the head to bump the compression. I didn't do this but I hear it does wonders.


Honestly I would recommend doing the exhaust, get a dc2r throttle body + intake manifold, and if you're not happy then do a b20 swap or just buy a dc2r gearbox and put in a HD clutch/lightweight flywheel.

[vtecing]

Forget about the intake manifold and throttle body, the b16 already has a decent set up, port ur current component if u really want to. Finish your exhaust and intake.

A lot of people have had significant improvements with HD clutch and light flywheel. Won't really net u any extra power but will allow u to use your power more efficiently. Or you could just go for a dc2r Gbox, although they are quite expensive I guarantee it improve ur speed more than anything else in that price range.

If you are doing head work, keep it mild and don't raise the rpm, ur stock crank shaft won't cope.

[stndrd]

Forget about the intake manifold and throttle body, the b16 already has a decent set up, port ur current component if u really want to. Finish your exhaust and intake.

A lot of people have had significant improvements with HD clutch and light flywheel. Won't really net u any extra power but will allow u to use your power more efficiently. Or you could just go for a dc2r Gbox, although they are quite expensive I guarantee it improve ur speed more than anything else in that price range.

If you are doing head work, keep it mild and don't raise the rpm, ur stock crank shaft won't cope.


+1. You will see a much better improvement by upgrading to a dc2r box with a nice hd or cushion button clutch & lightweight flywheel as opposed to spending thousands on head work that will net minimul power gains. By increasing your final drive you are effectivaly adding power for minimul costs.

Example: I have a customer that has a stock ep3 (only has gruppe m intake, standard exhaust) with a 5.46fd that will chop any ep3 with I/h/e all day everyday and does consistant 1:44 at winton on street tyres as opposed to ther ep3's I have heard or doing 1:45's with I/h/e and mild cams on street tyres

[vtecing]

5.4fd? What's the top speed, 150? Lol

[stndrd]

I'm not 100% sure but I'd be saying around the 180km/h, but being at Winton, you don't really reach V-max as you spend most of your time between 80-140km/h

[dougie_504]

Yeah, but what if you decide to go Phillip Island? 180km/hour won't serve you well there. I wouldn't go that short on an FD for track, no shorter than 4.7. My mate uses 4.4 and he still gets to 200ish at Winton/Sandown in his standard EF8. 210-220 at PI.

[egb16b]

5.4fd lol gangster shit.. cruising at 100 in 5th gear at 6k .. draiinnerrrrr!

[stndrd]

Each to their own at the end of the day. I personally advised against it but some people never listen....

[Alvis]

Intersting thread as I've often thought about putting a B16A2 in my EK1 and I admire you for looking into it! But like what was said in the second post the main things that stop me doing this are money (obviously) and future plans.

Don't want to be a 'downer' but when I think about how much I could sell my car for + how much potential mods would cost (+XX% for unexpected problems - you have to budget this in) I find I can pretty much own myself a decent DC2 or DC5 R and I've got the right foundations to build on this 1-2+ years down the track ie your car grows with you as you earn more money etc etc.

Rationally I think there is a line you draw in the sand and you just say I'm happy with what I've got. But irrational things do make us mod cars purely for the love of it!

At least you have a B series!

[stndrd]

The cheapest way (overall but not initially) to make power is, dare I say, turbocharging

[dougie_504]

^

Cheapest for power gained per $ for sure bro.


Alvis, love your car mate but the DC2R is in a class of it's own. I'd just buy one of those if I were you and wanting and wanting a better engine.

[Alvis]

Yep, I couldn't agree with you more, no matter what you do to a Civic, at the end of the day it will always be a Civic.

An 'R' is a completely different type of blood.

I so want a DC2R now! Damn it.

[Egcivicduty]

If you are doing head work, keep it mild and don't raise the rpm, ur stock crank shaft won't cope.

got any evidence of this?
The reason the b16b and b18c crankshafts are balanced and reinforced, is because they need to be

[dougie_504]

got any evidence of this?
The reason the b16b and b18c crankshafts are balanced and reinforced, is because they need to be

Also would like some evidence. Haven't heard this myself and I would have thought that most B16's or B18C's would rev out a bit higher than OEM without blowing the block. My built B16A rev's out to 9,000 and has been doing so for the last 10-11 months without trouble.

[Egcivicduty]

maybe he meant that the stock tachometer wont be able to handle it? :confused:

[GSi_PSi]

lol one dude back in the day had a B16a with Toda Spec C cams revving out to like 9200rpm on the stock bottom end. He ran a 13.9 with 4.9FD in a CRX delsol....
made 118kw atw tuned by toda..

[jeremydawg]

dayum. 118 atw naiice.

[vtecing]

I don't have any evidence, just going by what Honda suggests. Going from a standard b16 to a b16b they upgraded the crankshaft so that it is more balanced, because the rpm has been raised. Anything that spins fast needs to be balanced, a perfect example of this is with your wheels/tyres, when you are traveling at 60kmh it isn't terribly noticeable that your wheels haven't been balanced, although once we reach high way speeds it becomes apparent that our wheels are not balanced for those speeds. It's the same with a crankshaft, the faster you spin it, the more perfectly balanced it needs to be, hence why we have harmonic balancers.

I acknowledge that yes it is possible to raise the rpm and the engine may remain perfectly fine, just like bolting on a turbo charger and not opening the block or lowering the compression. Most of the time the engine will cope, but it's just not 'advisable'.

[GSi_PSi]

Honestly I would be more worried about valve springs and rod bolts in raising rpm , the Honda crankshafts come balanced from factory , the only differences between the R's are they have been counterweighted which I guess makes it more durable and reliable keeping the engine from internal vibrations. But also makes it heavier vs the b16a -b18c2 equivalents. In saying this, I have never heard of anyones crankshaft failing on a Honda before....

[dougie_504]

^

Agreed. I'd also be more concerned with the valvetrain.

[stndrd]

If the valvetrain has be sufficently upgraded, you the need to think about piston speed and the extra forces created by higher piston speeds. A few hundred rpm extra would be alright, but I have met people you spin their b/k series over 10,00rpm and it would be under these conditions that damage to the bottom end would happen possibly

[kutso]

so by bottom end you mean bearings letting go? how long do they last revving to 9k on stock motor?

[stndrd]

by bottom end I mean bearings, crank, rods, pistons. Bearing life has to many variables to say they last xxxkm. I have seen a couple of built high reving gt-r's that have warped the crank over time by setting the rev limit to high, tho personally haven't seen it on a honda, tho mysterious things always happen

[vtecing]

Honda upgraded it for a reason. Im not a mechanical engineer, they spend millions on research so ill take advise from them over an ozhonda member any day

[GSi_PSi]

If all else fails, quote honda.

the power of dreamers

[TheSaint]

If all else fails, quote honda.

the power of dreamers

i lold ...

[Egcivicduty]

I dunno, I just assumed the reason for the upgrade is to do with the b16b and 18c just not being as inately balanced as the 16a
But I dunno, lol
Maybe they just did it cause it sounded cool

[jdm18c]

my mate had a b16a and had toda spec c cams and reved to 9k all day everyday on a stock bottom end, the thing was reliable as only sold it not long ago but done the cams around 3-4 yrs ago so it lasted no drams

[GSi_PSi]

Dont get me wrong, its a good thing they counterweighted it, as the B16B and B18CR/7 engines are more likely to be tracked which i guess would serve the purpose quite well,
do i believe it is 100% necessary no... as the op stated he might be looking at the track later and is not using this engine to be a hardcore trackwarrior.

What im having trouble understanding is that 'vtecing' said it will not cope revving out to higher rev's, without any evidence only just stating that honda upgraded the crank with more weights , so should you.
Futhermore people with B16a engine who have the shorter deck, unlike the B16B cannot fit the (rare as fck to find and expensive) B16B crank into the block anyway without purchasing custom rods and cannot fit the B18CR crank without purchasing custom pistons.
The stock B16a crank can handle 10,000rpm all day everday

end rant/

[TODA AU]

Dont get me wrong, its a good thing they counterweighted it, as the B16B and B18CR/7 engines are more likely to be tracked which i guess would serve the purpose quite well,
do i believe it is 100% necessary no... as the op stated he might be looking at the track later and is not using this engine to be a hardcore trackwarrior.

What im having trouble understanding is that 'vtecing' said it will not cope revving out to higher rev's, without any evidence only just stating that honda upgraded the crank with more weights , so should you.
Futhermore people with B16a engine who have the shorter deck, unlike the B16B cannot fit the (rare as fck to find and expensive) B16B crank into the block anyway without purchasing custom rods and cannot fit the B18CR crank without purchasing custom pistons.
The stock B16a crank can handle 10,000rpm all day everday

end rant/
Fair comment with the rant except the pistons are actually sheft items from Toda.
The same forged pistons used in this kit will do exactly what you're saying
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/piston/b16a-1800kit.html
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/piston/b16a-1800kit.jpg

The pin height (Compression height) is 21.5mm, allowing you to either used std B18C crank & rods in a B16A or B16B crank & rods if you wanted to stay at 1600cc.
The down side is they're single ring pistons so if the ring gap ( 0.20~0.30mm) & piston to bore (2/100mm to 3/100mm or 0.0009" to 0.0011") isnt spot on, the motor can be a bit smokey untill it's up to temp.
For a roadie, erring to the tight side is preferable. Race engine, go to the loose side.
That said, it's tighter than stock.
Anyway, this kit has a few NSW IPRA championships under it's belt, so it works.

For best results, you'd use it with a PR3 head, modified to have a P72 CNC chamber.
+ some clever port work.
You've got room to move decking the bock & the head at the piston is below the deck height on a vigin block.
(-0.010" B18C crank & rods / -0.030" B16B crank & rods)

Oh, & the other down side when used with a B16B crank is the comp would be near stock at around 10.0:1
They can be ordered with alterntaive crown design for increased compression though, allowing you to have a 1615cc B16A with 11.8+:1 C/R or 1820cc B16A with over 13.0:1
Anyway, enough babbling, I just though you guys migh be interested.

[TODA AU]

lol one dude back in the day had a B16a with Toda Spec C cams revving out to like 9200rpm on the stock bottom end. He ran a 13.9 with 4.9FD in a CRX delsol....
made 118kw atw tuned by toda..
Speaking of Charb's car, the last one I tuned was his cousin's which he built.
Also a B16A2 (stock bottom end) in an EK4 VtiR & it made 124kw @ the wheels.
Again it was using Spec C's
Intake manifold was Edlebrock Performer X with Itr throttle (I think)
Exhaust manifold was a Bisimoto * copy with 2.5" Ex
The additinal trick with this one was the use of a no core shift in the head & moving to a CNC valve job from RAMS (In Windsor)
Std B-series use 3 angle seats, but the K's use 5.
Moving to these angles gives you a 5kw leg up accross the rev range over the original 3 angle seats.
As a side note it also lets you increase the overlap for improved mid range without loss of top end or idle quality.

Notes re header,
I was pretty impressed with the top end these gave though the mid range was a little down.
That said the power delivery was clean & smooth from 4500rpm up but that is typical of a good 4-1.
Fitment was apparently a bitch, so if you're going to use these, I'd say you'd be better off with real ones.
http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_9_103_105_106&products_id=360
Plus in my experience for some reason the real deal headers aways seem to out power the coppies.
Personally I think it's to to with attention to detail on the stepped primaries & collector etc
In any case, they * look like these ones (4-1)
http://bisimoto.com/store/images/b18.jpg

[GSi_PSi]

Nice, what does that one rev out to Adrian ?.

[TODA AU]

Nice, what does that one rev out to Adrian ?.

Rev limit - 8800rpm
Vtec Swap - 7300rpm @ 85kpa / 7500rpm @ 40kpa
The high swap is becasue it makes more power on the low cam till then
- see dyno sheet below
Idle speed - 950rpm

I was wrong with the output too, it was actually 126.7kw, not 124 - sorry
Dyno sheet is before:& after (Stock vs + Headwork, headers, cams etc & tune)
The change in description from VtiR to B16A is just me typing something different on differnt days, but it's the same car

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/[IMG]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/CharbelB16ADyno.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/CharbelB16ADyno.jpg

[jdm18c]

i was gonna say i swear he told me 126.7 kw haha

[stndrd]

That is a very nice solid gain thru the whole range. What were torque gains like?