How much does a rear sway bar help?

[Evok]

Thinking of investing in a sway bar to increase handling due to a awesome amount of body roll !

Please rate how much you recommend getting a rear sway bar out of 10!

Also would sway bar do as much handling compared getting damper adjustable shocks?


Thank you!

[NeedVtec]

obviously there is no comparison between the two, but a rsb does help a lot! out of 10, probably 7 or 8. So much better than front strut bars!

[Riced_Civic]

in vest in a good set of coilovers if u want to eliminate most of the body roll.

then if u feel the need to eliminate more roll invest in the bigger rear SB.

if u only want to eliminate a fraction of the roll get the RSB

[Jccck]

Just based on prices, F+R Swaybars are the best bang for your buck suspension mod you can do!
And the difference is huge!

[EK1 Civic]

I rather have my swaybars then my coilovers

[dougie_504]

Sway bars alone will reduce some roll without making your ride uncomfortable like how coilovers can. If you want the best handling get both. If it was a choice between the two id get coilovers as I think they reduce the roll more on their own than the rsb will.

[Oz_Striker]

My old ek1 didn't have a rear sway bar from stock, I upgraded my shocks and springs and then put an ek9 rear sway bar on and the difference was huge, way less roll in the rear and the car felt a lot more stable through corners. As said above though I'd still buy some coilovers as I would also agree they would remove more body roll, but having both would be even better

[senna]

You need to consider what you are doing with the suspension later on. A rear swaybar will give you better turn in by reducing the amount of rear grip. This happens because more of the cornering loads are being managed directly by the tyre rather than through the suspension travel and then into the tyre.

On standard style springs and shocks this is generally ok, but once you've increased the roll stiffness with coilovers, for example, on top of the swaybar then the tyre also needs to be upgraded to handle the increased load and continue to give better handling. If you are fitting coilovers you may find that going back to the stock swaybar gives a better result on the road with road tyres.

Sometimes swaybars can make your car "feel" fast because its sitting flat, but actually go around the corner slower.

[stndrd]

As mentioned above, you need to think about what you are doing with the car. Are you going to track it or is it just for the street. Personally, I would recommend getting a good set of coilovers first as at LEGAL speeds, just about all the body roll will be eliminated. Also by having the option of being able to lower the car, you also lower the center of gravity, which helps with reducing body roll & evening out cornering forces. If you are going to track the car, I say yes to a swaybar, but only once you have coilovers have been fitted, as depending on what spring rates you go, will help determine what size front & rear swaybars to run. Also make sure the rear is adjustable & I would personally invest in a set of aftermarket (Skunk2, Function7 etc) rear LCA's to give even more rear swaybar adjustment and if you are fitting to an early civic/integra, remember to get a rear subframe brace, otherwise you will tear the swaybar mounts off the subframe

[senna]

^^ agreed

Keep in mind though, for a road car coilovers also aren't the best option (especially with Sydney's crappy roads) as the cheaper end of the market is generally rubbish from a compliance point of view - spring rates too high and shock bump valving too firm.
A good set of Koni shocks with lowered coils (not too low so you run out of shock travel) will give you a huge increase in performance while still retaining a good level of comfort or compliance. They will also reduce the body roll by having a stronger rebound valve, this stops the inside lifting while cornering.

***i'm a noob on the forum guys but this is one area i can definitely help out! :thumbsup:

[stndrd]

If I could give you another rep point I would, but I can't just yet.

I run Tein Monoflex on my EG hatch and find that with 10kg/mm2 f & 6kg/mm2 r spring rates, it was not overly stiff and the valving was able to keep up with Melbourne roads. I am now looking at upgrading to KW (tho this will be to support a K swap & dedicated track set up) as the KW valving is even better than the Tein's.

If you live in Melbourne Evok, drop me a PM if you would like to talk some more, as I have direct access to Koni and am able to get very competitive prices for you. Otherwise if you are wanting KW, I know the distributor in Melbourne & can put you in the right direction for anything else you need.

[senna]

Bam - matched valving to spring rate which is then matched to driving style, tyre choice and vehicle weight. This is what needs to be considered and it doesn't need to cost you a fortune!

[mugen_ctr]

imo, go swaybar, as this was the route i went with... if u have a standard ek1, than rsb is a must if u want performance, even the standard 14mm ek4/em1 swaybar makes a hugh difference!

Than i went thicker, 20mm, which was much better, handles much smoother and flatter, hella less body roll, but the soft springs really let the car down, so i went to coilover setup, which made a big improvement, but have yet to really experience it, prbs not till nxt yr when i hit the tracks hopefully :D

But ultimately, u cannot rely on one sole suspension part to make it handle like magic, you need to whole package to really make the most of the car. Ask ur self what do u want, an go from there, dont go spending $$$$ because everyone else is using is because its the cool thing....

From what ive read, any aftermarket LCA are pretty useless the holes are in the incorrect position for the optimum geometry, but what do i know, im not an engineer lol, imo, u dont need after lca, its more of a wank factor

[marquee]

Pretty much what i did was upgrade my rsb from standard euro 12mm to a 18mm rsb and turn in was amazing.

Fir example use to take this turn at 80km an hour always get pushed to the outside lane then with the thicker bar just went to the inside lane without trying.

Could go a bit thicker maybe 22mm.

Then with coilovers combo makes a massive difference

[TheSaint]

have a read on this page - it explains alot =)

http://www.gosafety.com.my/template.asp?menuid=10


How anti roll bar / sway bar works

Anti roll bar/sway bar is an automotive suspension device. It connects opposite wheels together through short lever arms linked by a torsion spring. Whenever a vehicle's taking a corner, the weight transfer will make the car sway a side, causing vehicle body roll and delay in steering response turning into a corner. With Ultra Racing's reinforced/bigger diameter anti roll bar, increasing the suspension's roll stiffness and its resistance to roll in turns, greatly increasing the vehicle's handling.


Multi-link Suspension system with stock anti roll bar / sway Bar / stabilizer bar

Most of the vehicles with multi-link type of suspension have already got an anti roll bar installed when the vehicle's being rolled out from the factory. This actually makes the drivers think that the stock anti roll bar is sufficient and they never had the thought of replacing it with aftermarket anti roll bar with bigger size in diameter. This is actually incorrect as the stock anti roll bar is being designed in tiny size and it shall never fulfill the drivers especially for more spirited driving.

[senna]

Hmmm, while that blurb has plenty of merit, it is mostly a sales pitch as to why people should buy Ultra Racing Products....


This actually makes the drivers think that the stock anti roll bar is sufficient and they never had the thought of replacing it with aftermarket anti roll bar with bigger size in diameter. This is actually incorrect as the stock anti roll bar is being designed in tiny size and it shall never fulfill the drivers especially for more spirited driving.

I mean really, that's just sales 101 "Tell em what they wanna hear!"

[TheSaint]

well yes and no - Ultra Racing make some amazing products and they are cheap too hehe

but you dont always need 'bigger' anti-sway bars than stock

for example i went from having no swaybar to an OEM 14mm on my EG sedan and that was enough for me
i went from OEM 14mm to a whiteline 22mm on my Dc2 and it was too much for daily driving

when looking at suspension/handling upgrades i think u really need to look at it this way...
- good quality coilovers or struts and springs (this will do the majority of the work in reducing bodyroll and improving handling)
- a desent set of tyres, for example going from no brander mismatches to something like bridgestone Re001 or Re002 will make a huge difference on acceleration, braking and handeling
- swaybars - are the OEM ones large enough and setup right for you? also will ur car need extra re-enforcement like an ASR brace or tie brace?
- strut/pillar/room bars - these are the icing on the cake - the effect they make will be alot more noticable with the rest of the above points
- bush's + endlinks - a very overlooked point - but when u start uprating ur suspension it puts extra stress on all the bush's - putting in something quality like hardrace can help tighten everything up on an aging car and reduce the risk of failure

[senna]

True, bushes will make a huge difference - ie you can change the swaybar bushes on the standard bars and notice a reasonable difference - for $25 its a simple effective way to maximize the potential of the stock bars!

Tyres also make a huge difference - so many people with $3-4K worth of suspension and then there's a set of ling long specials on all four corners! failboat.....

[TheSaint]

True, bushes will make a huge difference - ie you can change the swaybar bushes on the standard bars and notice a reasonable difference - for $25 its a simple effective way to maximize the potential of the stock bars!

Tyres also make a huge difference - so many people with $3-4K worth of suspension and then there's a set of ling long specials on all four corners! failboat.....

haha so true - tyres was one of the best things i did for my car =D
shifter bushing kit is $20 and 10mins well spent as well =)

[Evok]

Great feedback from everyone!!!

Yes my car is a dc2 vti-r with stock sway bars and peddersshocks/kingsprings :(.....
Was choosing between saving up and upgrading to coils or go buy some sway bar !

From feedback i think i might go with rsb and see how much it really improves! but coil overs upgrade is a must in future mods!

Thanks guys

[egb16b]

Stock vti-r FSB is about 20mm from memory..RSB is about 14mm I think.

Upgrading the RSB to type R 22mm will - as everybody has said reduce body roll - but also decrease understeer.

Since you already have spring/shock combo, I would recommend getting Type R RSB, no need to upgrade FSB.

Also look into upgrading your suspension bushes. This will make a massive improvement.

[Evok]

Thanks for info!

[mugen_ctr]

Id suggest stick to something like 20mm or less if u want the car to handle neutral unless u plan on goin the ITR FSB in the future....

Having a RSB thicker than the FSB is going to cause over-steer, sure it sounds fun, but in a fwd it aint lol.... its all about finding balance, and its something ur gonna need to find urself as every driver has there own car setup tailored to suit how they drive....

as ive said in another thread, what works for one driver may not work for another.

[nigs]

Also make sure the rear is adjustable & I would personally invest in a set of aftermarket (Skunk2, Function7 etc) rear LCA's to give even more rear swaybar adjustment and if you are fitting to an early civic/integra, remember to get a rear subframe brace, otherwise you will tear the swaybar mounts off the subframe
Lol how does having any of those LCA give you adjustable rear?
You can get adjustable end links to tune the amount of preload.
Maybe look up what a sway bar does.
Its ability to effectively increase
Spring rate through a corner but not on the straight is probably a better option for comfort.

[rhys.l]

Whilst I agree with most of what has been said here, your goal should not be to eliminate all body roll and and effectively all suspension travel by throwing on a stiff set of coilovers. This is something that seems to be an epidemic thought process and modification direction with honda drivers, even those whose cars never leave our potholed streets.

Believe it or not, suspension is designed to not only soak up bumps, but also allow the tyre to follow the road and maintain a good contact patch. My thinking is if you take too much of this suspension (travel) away, your tyre will no longer be able to do this as effectively. Obviously on a track this is not a huge worry as there aren't alot of variations in the surface. However on road, I think this is something which should be considered.

[TheSaint]

Id suggest stick to something like 20mm or less if u want the car to handle neutral unless u plan on goin the ITR FSB in the future....

Having a RSB thicker than the FSB is going to cause over-steer, sure it sounds fun, but in a fwd it aint lol.... its all about finding balance, and its something ur gonna need to find urself as every driver has there own car setup tailored to suit how they drive....

as ive said in another thread, what works for one driver may not work for another.

this - have fun with ur 22mm RSB when it starts to rain - unless u wanna buy some good quality tyres and get coils as well
i would stick with the stock RSB and just get coils - something like tein superstreet

or even a better strut/spring combo

[egb16b]

Whilst I agree with most of what has been said here, your goal should not be to eliminate all body roll and and effectively all suspension travel by throwing on a stiff set of coilovers. This is something that seems to be an epidemic thought process and modification direction with honda drivers, even those whose cars never leave our potholed streets.

Believe it or not, suspension is designed to not only soak up bumps, but also allow the tyre to follow the road and maintain a good contact patch. My thinking is if you take too much of this suspension (travel) away, your tyre will no longer be able to do this as effectively. Obviously on a track this is not a huge worry as there aren't alot of variations in the surface. However on road, I think this is something which should be considered.

good point.

but depends on what coilovers you buy. If you buy a cheap set that doesn't have good dampening/rebounding properties, then yes you're right. But good quality coilovers have excellent rebounding qualities when set on a softer setting and can drive on public roads quite comfortably and keep the tyre in contact with the road. Stiffen up the settings when you take it to the mountain or track.. but especially when your mrs gives you a blowy while driving .. lol.

There's plenty different type of coilovers you can buy. Some more suited for street then track, some half half and some purely for track. Just gotta research what's available and buy the right coilovers to suit your needs.

[Evok]

There so many different opinions i really don't know what to get first? RSB upgrade or just simple save and buy coils? My goal is just for better handling around corners through street. Ain't planning to make it a track use car so in conclusion. I'm still confused.

If upgrading my RSB will increase over-steer ( If its true ). Shouldn't i save up for coils? I have kings/pedders suspension combo....don't ask why .. Is it worth upgrading or should i attempt upgrading the RSB!?

Just want to stiffen up my ride a bit so i dont have so much body roll around corners. But if i do upgrade my RSB...over-steer concerns my safety.

Which first?

[TheSaint]

from what u have explained and the car u have - i would look at ur shocks + springs/coils first
the Dc2/Dc4 chassis already has a good swaybar setup for street use

if you really want to spend money on something now - uprate ur bush's - it will make a noticable difference and keep u happy until u upgrade ur suspension
- shifter bush kit
- RSB bush/mount kit
- FSB bush/mount kit
- endlinks or endlink bush's
- RTA bush kit
- rear LCA bush kit
- steering rack bush kit
dont bother with the strut hat bush's - they will get replaced when u upgrade ur suspension anyway
i think hardrace and energy suspension both make a master bush kit that comes with all the bush's that you would normally replace

once u have ur suspension sorted out - get urself front upper brace, front lower brace, rear upper brace or 4pnt brace and rear lower brace
this will make the most of your suspension and help the forces travel properly through the shocks

[dougie_504]

I just reckon for daily driving get some reasonably stiff coils maybe 8/6kg and an 18mm rsb if that's not enough

[stndrd]

Lol how does having any of those LCA give you adjustable rear?
You can get adjustable end links to tune the amount of preload.
Maybe look up what a sway bar does.
Its ability to effectively increase
Spring rate through a corner but not on the straight is probably a better option for comfort.


http://www.adrianteo.com/ebay/eglca-r3/eglca-r3-Images/5.jpg

If you click on the link, you can see the three holes where you can choose to mount your swaybar end links to. There is a notable difference in how the swaybar reacts (and in turn, changes the characteristics of the car) by changing which of the three holes you choose to use as your end link mounting point. I surprised myself as to how much at my most recent track day at Winton when I was playing around with some settings on my EG

[Alvis]

Very good thread - and some very good advice in here if you sift through it.

I'm in the same situation (as some guys on this thread know) deciding between Koni adjustables or a rear sway bar kit (I currently have spoon springs and oem dampers, no rsb, stock 22mm fsb, mugen front tower bar). And I've learnt some good things to date:

In summary:

* The first thing I would do if I was you, which is what I did, is go down to Pedders and get a 28 point brake and suspension check - this will tell you what bushes might need replacing (a very good suggestion by Saint), the condition of your shocks, springs, brakes etc. Once you know all of this, only then you can make an informed decision - how else can you decide what to upgrade if you don't know what's currently sitting under your bum every day?

* Having good quality suspension is a must for best results. Not just for handling - but think about your braking as well - braking is just as much about the dynamics of a car as is suspension, especially if you're going to be doing some spirited driving and diving into corners.

* A good quality shock/spring combination is one of the most under-rated suspension settings on the street. If you don't believe me ask Honda. Ask yourself - what suspension did the Type R come out with? And if you've even seen the Civic R video, it really makes you realise just how good this setup can be: skip to 6.20 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqKqQMzWBJ8

* Good quality coilovers can be great on the street - but how much are you willing to pay for this? You can buy quality Spoon progressive springs for $400 delivered and Koni adjustables for $700 delivered. That's $1,100 all up. Done. I didn't come across any 'quality' coilovers for anywhere near this price.

* Once you are happy with your setup - you have to remember your application too - you said you only want it for the street, so see how a good shock/spring / coilover setup goes and then you can opt for the rsb after this to further improve the handling.

* I think I just answered my own question - it's going to be Koni's for me first; then an rsb will follow at a later date.

Hope this helps clears things up for you, I know it has for me :)

[Alvis]

from what u have explained and the car u have - i would look at ur shocks + springs/coils first
the Dc2/Dc4 chassis already has a good swaybar setup for street use

if you really want to spend money on something now - uprate ur bush's - it will make a noticable difference and keep u happy until u upgrade ur suspension
- shifter bush kit
- RSB bush/mount kit
- FSB bush/mount kit
- endlinks or endlink bush's
- RTA bush kit
- rear LCA bush kit
- steering rack bush kit
dont bother with the strut hat bush's - they will get replaced when u upgrade ur suspension anyway
i think hardrace and energy suspension both make a master bush kit that comes with all the bush's that you would normally replace

once u have ur suspension sorted out - get urself front upper brace, front lower brace, rear upper brace or 4pnt brace and rear lower brace
this will make the most of your suspension and help the forces travel properly through the shocks

This is the bushing kit available from JDM Yard for $365:

26pcs kit

-front upper arm bushing x 4
-front lower arm bushing x 6
-rear upper arm bushing x 4
-rear lower arm bushing x 6
-rear trailing arm bushing x 2
-rear toe arm bushing x 4

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?122557-HARDRACE-Performance-Suspension-Parts-%28AU-amp-NZ-Distributor%29-New-Pricing!-*JDMyard*&

What's the rep on Hardrace equipment guys - I'm not too sure on this brand???

[stndrd]

Hard race products are top quality. Yet to find something better personally

[Alvis]

Hard race products are top quality. Yet to find something better personally

Oh really, wow, I didn't know they were that good - is it made in U.S.A. stuff?

[[zeth]]

Might wanna look into changing both front and rear swaybars rather than changing the rear alone if you gonna go the swaybar route. If your car feels balanced now and you are happy with the handling characteristic but wanted that 'stiffer' feel, then def, do a front and rear swaybars. If you want your car to have that tendency to oversteer, then change the rear alone and vice versa (that's the general understanding anyways)

Whiteline sells both front and rear for DC2, and they are adjustable too and it came with the linkage that you need to install them. Although, as others have said, you should get that sway bar reinforcement plate thingy to prevent your rear subframe from cracking!

By the sound of it, you might be happier if you just get a coilover... You got that stiffness that you've wanted, and it actually changes the look of your car (lower it more or raise it)... WIN!

[TheSaint]

yeah hardrace are some of the best bushings you can get

thanks for the heads up on that kit - i might just buy that and be done with it =D
hrmm ... will need to get swaybar bush kit for the rear as well hehe


This is the bushing kit available from JDM Yard for $365:

26pcs kit

-front upper arm bushing x 4
-front lower arm bushing x 6
-rear upper arm bushing x 4
-rear lower arm bushing x 6
-rear trailing arm bushing x 2
-rear toe arm bushing x 4

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?122557-HARDRACE-Performance-Suspension-Parts-%28AU-amp-NZ-Distributor%29-New-Pricing!-*JDMyard*&

What's the rep on Hardrace equipment guys - I'm not too sure on this brand???