Shorter rack ends/tie rods for EF Civic available?

[ToF]

Hey guys,

I've got an EF9 (with a B18 conversion - if that makes a difference?) and I've just installed these camber adjustment arms (http://www.skunk2.com/EF_camber_kit_updatedv2_retail.html).
After I put these in I noticed I had crazy toe out so I had to wind the toe back by eye until I could get an alignment done today.

At today's alignment, I had new tie rod ends installed at the same time as my old ones had some play in them. The tyre shop just got AUDM ED tie rod ends as directed by me as I assumed they should be the same as the JDM EF9 tie rod ends. I now know this is not the case and the JDM ends are shorter. I only know this now after reading some threads on the EF9 because I have a problem where I cannot run any negative camber with reasonable toe as there is no more thread on the rack end/tie rod.

Basically on -1.5 degrees camber, the most toe I could run is ~45mm toe in because there is no more thread on the rack end for the tie rod end to turn into. This is obviously because the AUDM/USDM tie rod end is longer than the JDM one. Seems like the previous owner didn't know this because the ones taken out of the car are the same length as the new ones put in.

I'm looking for a solution so I can run some proper alignment settings. I don't want to order a JDM tie rod end because I've already got these AUDM ones. I'm looking more for a way to shorten the rack end or find out if there are any shorter rack ends available on the market or even off another model Honda that would fit?

If anyone has any info or has another idea on how I can fix this it would be much appreciated. Thanks :)

TL;DR I need help in shortening my rack end/tie rod (NOT the tie rod end), or finding out if there are shorter ones available on the market/off a different model Honda that will fit my EF9.

[ToF]

Sorry, that was really a shitload of text which probably makes no sense. This thread might put things into better context: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?114521-Replacing-Outer-Tie-Rod-Ends-(civic)

[nigs]

Get a engineer to shorten them. Cost me $40 last time I did this.

[chargeR]

Get a engineer to shorten them. Cost me $40 last time I did this.

This.

For future reference the part numbers for the EF8/EF9 tie rod ends are:
Left: 53560-SH3-N11
Right: 53540-SH3-N11

[ToF]

This.

For future reference the part numbers for the EF8/EF9 tie rod ends are:
Left: 53560-SH3-N11
Right: 53540-SH3-N11
The more I think about this, it's stupid to shorten my rack ends. I'll bite the bullet and get the EF8/9 ends from Honda. Thanks for the part numbers.
Would you remember approximately how much these cost?

[chargeR]

The more I think about this, it's stupid to shorten my rack ends. I'll bite the bullet and get the EF8/9 ends from Honda. Thanks for the part numbers.
Would you remember approximately how much these cost?

I paid over $100 each around 6 months ago. That was with a bit of a discount.

[trism]

Does anyone know why the EF8/9 have shorter rack ends than the other models?

[hondapop]

Does anyone know why the EF8/9 have shorter rack ends than the other models?

Yes, It's because the EF8/EF9 use a different knuckle/hub to the ED9's and the steering arm that's part of it is longer which also moves the tierod attachment hole further in towards the rack as well, hence the shorter tierod end.

[hondapop]

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac188/tootnkumin/HondaPops%20CRX%20and%20projects%20pics/EF8steeringcomparisons001.jpg
The easiest way to recognise the EF8/EF9 knuckle is the wide, flattened area in the upper extension (that is apart from the 262mm brakes)
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac188/tootnkumin/HondaPops%20CRX%20and%20projects%20pics/EF8steeringcomparisons002.jpg

[hondapop]

It has been suggested elsewhere (not on here) that you can cut 10mm off the tierod end threaded end with a hacksaw. 2 disadvantages, 1 minor, 1 major. the minor is that you loose the Hex for a spanner and have to rely on the arms "squareness'' to undo and tighten the locknut. The major is that I defy anyone to cut an accurate face for the locknut to tighten onto.

The car I got the EF/8 knuckles off was an EF7 that had had a brake upgrade done. Whoever did it had overcome the tierod end problem by cutting the tierods themselves, a much better solution.

[trism]

Interesting. Any info on why they ef8/9 had the different knuckle? Is it due to clearance issues with the bigger disc?

[hondapop]

This discovery came about (for me) when dismantling the EF7 which was being used as a parts car and I noticed it had the 262mm brakes on it. I had been doing a comparison between ED9 and DA9 (the other knuckle in the pics)to see what, if any, dimensional differences there were between them.

No-one has been able to explain why, or where the EF8/EF9 knuckles came from or whether they were specific to those models only. I suspect when Honda was upgrading the brakes to 262's they hunted around in their parts bin and found some from another model and the difference in the steering arm didn't present a real problem to the geometry.

One of the guys who tracks an ED9 commented on a problem he had with the DA9 knuckles because of his car being extra low (the DA9's are longer from top ball joint to lower ball joint than ED9 knuckles) which pushed his UCA up too far.
He found some from a Gen 3 Prelude which he says are shorter and have improved his handling. I haven't had an opportunity to check any of them out to see if they are the ones Honda used, would love to do so.

[trism]

Weird. But 262 rotors bolt onto ed6 knuckles with no issues?

[hondapop]

Weird. But 262 rotors bolt onto ed6 knuckles with no issues?

Hah, you're going to have to excuse my ignorance on that one, which was the ED6, how did it differ from the EF7 etc.

[trism]

Ed6 is the Aussie delivered civic hatch. Identical underneath to the ed3 which is the sedan, and ed9 which is the crx

[hondapop]

Not up on all the numbers of the different models (thought they were all ED9's, learn something new everyday). I know the CRX's, both ED9 and EF7 only take the 242mm discs 'cause the caliper bolts are closer together.

[trism]

Bit that's due to the calipers you can bolt up, not the actual rotors not having clearance?

[hondapop]

Unless there are different calipers available that will fit those holes and take the bigger discs, the 262's definitely won't go into the smaller caliper.

[Marc_EE9]

The ED 1.6 models have 242mm front brakes as standard. The TRE's are 10mm shorter than EF8/EF9.
You can take 10mm off the 242 TRE's to fit onto an EF8/EF9, BUT I would NOT recommend this. People have had issues with this in the UK, mainly clearance issues.

The EE/EF 1.6 Vtec models have 262 front brakes, these have slightly longer TRE's to non-vtecs, as well as different hubs/arms etc

You CANNOT put EF8/EF9 calipers on ED front hubs, it will not work with any combination even if you use the original carriers. Many people have tried and failed here in the UK. Don't waste your time.


I bought two new EF8/EF9 TRE's from Honda this year (soon to be discountinued!) and they cost £80/$140 each, as no auto factors here sell the VTEC ones.
:(

[hondapop]

You can take 10mm off the 242 TRE's to fit onto an EF8/EF9, BUT I would NOT recommend this. People have had issues with this in the UK, mainly clearance issues.

Where have the clearance problems occured Mark ?

The reason the EF8/EF9 TRE's are shorter is that the steering arms on the their knuckle/hubs are longer than both the ED and DA9 knuckles, (the DA's being the usual choice when upgrading to 262mm brakes) which positions the TRE's ball joint hole closer in towards the steering rack.

I am asking about the clearance issues because the other alternative to shortening the ED TRE's is to shorten the actual tierod itself by the 10mm (has the same effect and a better choice). Having not had the chance to compare EF8 and ED TRE's side by side, is there a difference in their shape? I must admit I was originally puzzled by the offset "crank" in the ED and DA9 TRE's until I was under my CRX one day with the wheels turned full lock and noticed that the "crank's" purpose was to clear the wheels inner rim. I could only see there being a clearance problem if wheels with a greater offset than +38 or +40 were fitted or maybe very large diameter/combination of both. What do you think?

[trism]

I was thinking about it the other day, and was thinking that maybe the ef8/9 knuckles had the flatter section not just for brakes, but to fit wider rims for race cars.

[Marc_EE9]

They are slightly different shape.

I will try and find the website where I got the info from.

[hondapop]

I was thinking about it the other day, and was thinking that maybe the ef8/9 knuckles had the flatter section not just for brakes, but to fit wider rims for race cars.

Are you referring to the TRE's or the upper extension of the knuckle/hub (up to the top ball joint)?

If it's the TRE's, Honda changed to the cranked type progressively at the end of the 1980's (Civic/Crx ED, Integra DA9, CB Accord and BB4 Prelude). My little GA2 City has them as well. Even on full lock they don't come anywhere near the brakes or CV's etc.

If it's the hub's upper extension, I compared it to the DA9's and found that the inward curve is virtually identical ('cause I thought the EF8's might give more tyre/rim clearance) but it doesn't.

[ToF]

Wow, great info here. Many thanks to all contributors.

As a side note, I rang a number of dealers and got prices from $185 down to $135 for the exact damn part. Anyway, it's still possible to order these but there is a 3 week wait on them. :)

[cotties]

i had to replace mine a few years ago and i just cut 10mm of the end of the tie rod end.
it works perfectly fine and there was still plenty of hex end on it to put spanner on to
and its far cheaper than getting OEM ones $70 bucks compared to $360

[trism]

Are you referring to the TRE's or the upper extension of the knuckle/hub (up to the top ball joint)?

If it's the TRE's, Honda changed to the cranked type progressively at the end of the 1980's (Civic/Crx ED, Integra DA9, CB Accord and BB4 Prelude). My little GA2 City has them as well. Even on full lock they don't come anywhere near the brakes or CV's etc.

If it's the hub's upper extension, I compared it to the DA9's and found that the inward curve is virtually identical ('cause I thought the EF8's might give more tyre/rim clearance) but it doesn't.

The upper part of the knuckle.

Comparing the pics you posted earlier, and chatting to a mate, It seems that the upper part of the knuckle may have been flatter in order to add another inch or so width in avaliable tyre width on the race cars.

The different length in the crank for the TRE is just an after thought, as they were shorter on these particular knuckles.



keep in mind this is speculation, not fact.