Adding negative camber on lowered S2000 ?

[Parky]

Can someone clarify if BOTH these parts are needed to achieve negative camber on a lowered s2000. Is the principle the same for front & rear.


For Front:

(1)Hardrace/Megan Front adjustable upper control arm

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7062/55201117113565463172011.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/55201117113565463172011.jpg/)


(2)Hardrace/Megan Front roll centre adjusting ball joints, with offset camber

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5161/1291338935hr6621s2000ra.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/1291338935hr6621s2000ra.jpg/)




For Rear:


(1)Hardrace/Megan Rear-Upper adjustable camber arms
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2792/712201116105352776826mg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/712201116105352776826mg.jpg/)


(2)Hardrace/Megan Rear Roll Center Adjuster
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8985/6464500x500.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/6464500x500.jpg/)

[Eskimo_firefighter]

Hey mate, you do not need the roll center adjusters to get the camber you want. Only the camber arms are needed in your goal to adjust camber. However roll center adjusters would help improve the handling of your car as it supposedly corrects the suspension geometry when you have lowered suspension.

[EG5]

If the car is lowered you also wanna add driveshaft spacer

[bennjamin]

Op - you do realise your lowered car HAS negative camber ? The lower you go the more negative camber.

Do you mean add POSITIVE camber to correct the negative ? Yes that's the point of adjustable upper arms , to correct this as you lower the car

[Parky]

Ok i was a bit confused. Looks like i only need the roll centre adjuster for _camber on a lowered car, and yes im getting driveshaft spacers as well.

What bushes would you guys recommend changing while doing all suspension work, i.e. coilovers, sways, rca, bsk etc. Im thinking i might as well do the bushes while im at it. (car has 130k's)

[trism]

Roll centre adjusters have nothing to do with camber.

Even if the car has 0 camber, but it is lowered, than you should look at getting roll centre adjusters.

The extended ball joint moves the position of the control arms closer to the stock position when lowered, and it has the effect of correcting the roll centre of the car, making it handle better.

Its complicated to explain, but google what roll centre adjusters/extended ball joints actually do, and do some reading, and youll see that if you do any sort of hard driving, theyll be beneficial.

[hondapop]

Roll centre adjusters have nothing to do with camber.

Even if the car has 0 camber, but it is lowered, than you should look at getting roll centre adjusters.

The extended ball joint moves the position of the control arms closer to the stock position when lowered, and it has the effect of correcting the roll centre of the car, making it handle better.

Gonna disagree with you there trism. The roll centre adjuster extended ball joints don't do any moving of the LCA's at all. What they do, do in fact, is cause the hub assembly to be raised in relation to the LCA's further lowering the car. They really are only of use in regard to returning the LCA's closer to their stock angle if they are combined with coilovers which can then be adjusted to bring the car back up in height, because it is the suspension struts that determine where the LCA's sit.

[dlai5552]

Not sure if you know this but S2000 can go to -3 on stock suspension arms. And the lower you go, the more 'camber' it's gonna have.

[phatty]

Jax tyres said I was at max negative camber which was -2.0 on stock arms.. Is there something wrong or maybe they don't want me going max negative camber for their sake?

[hondapop]

I've just bought tyres and I get the impression from any of the "normal" outlets that they frown on mods that take things beyond OEM. Probably a warranty issue.

[aozora]

- You do not NEED driveshaft spacers on a lowered car. In time however if you begin to feel vibrations, then install them OR swap the driveshaft cups around. When I can be bothered I'll write up something to cover all the misconceptions on this board...
- Roll Center Adjusters are only required if you lower your car beyond a certain point. They have no relevance to camber. As hondapop has said, they only move the hub "up" to correct the suspension geometry after lowering. So I'm not sure how much you want to lower your car...
- Camber can be adjusted through approximately 4 ways (5 if you want to get technical with castor).
1. Through stock offset bolts (Limited range but this will increase as you lower the car to a certain point...).
2. Offset balljoints at the front (These move the bottom of the hub "out" to create more camber. This also increases track width at the front slightly). In conjunction with these you can also get roll center adjuster plates or have them built in... I would recommend buying them seperate to allow for more customization should you ever want to raise the car but have more camber etc. No reliability issues as they are solidly constructed and rely on the stock camber bolts to make adjustments (For example, stock camber adjustment is -1 to -3, after installing an offset joint, this would increase the adjustment range to -3 to -5). The design of the rear balljoint don't allow for this sort of design but I could be wrong...
3. Adjustable upper A-arms/SPC joints. This "pull in" the top of the hub to create more camber but also brings the wheel closer to the strut. I would highly recommend buying high quality A-arms if you do want to go down this path. A common problem is the adjustable pivot/SPC joint becoming loose and the joint rattling the bolts/adjustment plates out, leaving your hub bouncing about dangerously in a worst case scenario. I think I've covered this in another post but I don't know Megan racing have designed their parts but I doubt it would factor this in. Ikeya Formula make very good A-arms which have a nice locking plate design to avoid this issue :) SPC joints are another option and it's been heavily debated on S2ki as to their reliability. But if you do go down the cheaper options, just ensure you keep checking the bolts to ensure they're torqued up properly. That said they allow for much more of a camber adjustment range than offset joints :)
4. Aftermarket LCAs. Similar to offset joints, these would push out the bottom part of the hub to increase camber. But are quite costly. So far I only know of Ikeya Formula making them... but who knows, Megan Racing/Hardrace could steal the design anytime soon...

Ultimately - what are you doing with the car and how low are you going?

[Parky]

- You do not NEED driveshaft spacers on a lowered car. In time however if you begin to feel vibrations, then install them OR swap the driveshaft cups around. When I can be bothered I'll write up something to cover all the misconceptions on this board...
- Roll Center Adjusters are only required if you lower your car beyond a certain point. They have no relevance to camber. As hondapop has said, they only move the hub "up" to correct the suspension geometry after lowering. So I'm not sure how much you want to lower your car...
- Camber can be adjusted through approximately 4 ways (5 if you want to get technical with castor).
1. Through stock offset bolts (Limited range but this will increase as you lower the car to a certain point...).
2. Offset balljoints at the front (These move the bottom of the hub "out" to create more camber. This also increases track width at the front slightly). In conjunction with these you can also get roll center adjuster plates or have them built in... I would recommend buying them seperate to allow for more customization should you ever want to raise the car but have more camber etc. No reliability issues as they are solidly constructed and rely on the stock camber bolts to make adjustments (For example, stock camber adjustment is -1 to -3, after installing an offset joint, this would increase the adjustment range to -3 to -5). The design of the rear balljoint don't allow for this sort of design but I could be wrong...
3. Adjustable upper A-arms/SPC joints. This "pull in" the top of the hub to create more camber but also brings the wheel closer to the strut. I would highly recommend buying high quality A-arms if you do want to go down this path. A common problem is the adjustable pivot/SPC joint becoming loose and the joint rattling the bolts/adjustment plates out, leaving your hub bouncing about dangerously in a worst case scenario. I think I've covered this in another post but I don't know Megan racing have designed their parts but I doubt it would factor this in. Ikeya Formula make very good A-arms which have a nice locking plate design to avoid this issue :) SPC joints are another option and it's been heavily debated on S2ki as to their reliability. But if you do go down the cheaper options, just ensure you keep checking the bolts to ensure they're torqued up properly. That said they allow for much more of a camber adjustment range than offset joints :)
4. Aftermarket LCAs. Similar to offset joints, these would push out the bottom part of the hub to increase camber. But are quite costly. So far I only know of Ikeya Formula making them... but who knows, Megan Racing/Hardrace could steal the design anytime soon...

Ultimately - what are you doing with the car and how low are you going?

Hey Thanks for your well detailed answer. I want to lower by about 1" to 1.5" all around. Im aiming to turn this car into a track/weekend car.
Also What bushes would you guys recommend changing while doing all suspension work, i.e. coilovers, sways, rca, bsk etc. Im thinking i might as well do the bushes while im at it. (car has 130k's)

[aozora]

Hey Thanks for your well detailed answer. I want to lower by about 1" to 1.5" all around. Im aiming to turn this car into a track/weekend car.
Also What bushes would you guys recommend changing while doing all suspension work, i.e. coilovers, sways, rca, bsk etc. Im thinking i might as well do the bushes while im at it. (car has 130k's)

For a weekend/track car I would imagine that you would need around -2 to -3 or possibly more. At a 1" drop you SHOULD be able to get about -2.5 all around and if you go lower to 1.5", then even more camber can be sought. So at that height it should be ok for the time being. But as mentioned, if you do need more I would recommend offset camber joints at the front and rear shouldn't need that much excessive camber... sounds to me more like a setup issue if you need beyond -3 or there abouts.
Ultimately regarding camber, drive the car first and make adjustments from there. If you feel your front is understeering and can't carry speed through high speed corners AND you've maxed out stock camber adjustment - THEN get something to adjust camber with. There's no point buying all these parts if you're not even going to use the extra adjustment range.

However, after dropping the car that low beyond 1" - the front will need something to counter the tie rod end angle. This can be done through a bumpsteer kit, spaced tie rod ends in conjunction with a RCA (at 1.5" drop, definitely). The rear, if it's an AP1 - I would highly recommend adjustable toe rods and RCAs. The stock toe to compression curve is shocking... so the toe rods will add alot more confidence through the corners :) But that said, depending on which toe arms you buy, the amount of spacers you use to position the toe rod to the hub is dependant on a few factors... gauging bumpsteer is not an easy task unfortunately. I'll see if I can find some articles on work already done... because ALL bumpsteer kits should relate to a specific static height - ie. front bumpsteer kits are usually just steering rack spacers but to return it to stock angles would require specific thicknesses depending on height. So if you've dropped the car 40mm then you'll need a 10mm spacer, if you've dropped the car 45mm then you'll need a 12mm spacer etc etc. The same goes for rear. You need to position the rod at a specific angle depending on height.

Bushes wise - I would do the obvious inspection and just make sure nothing is cracked. From what I've seen, A-arms don't seem to have too many issues with bushes cracking it's more the LCAs that I've seen have bushes failing. More common though is outside of the suspension. I think the top drivers and bottom passengers differential bushes like to go (or the opposite way?) and the driver's side engine mount. Innovative make some replacement kits with increased rigidity which I would recommend looking into :)

Hope this helps!