HELP! EM1 with S300 not starting - intermittent, electrical issue ??

[kraiye]

Hi guys,
Has happened a twice now where I try to start my coupe and it fires a little but doesn't start. The next time I turn the key, nothing! There is power going to everything, no blown fuses, even the green light on the S300 comes on when turning the key to ign. but when I turn it further to start the car there's a click (that sounds like its in behind the dash above the ecu) and green light on the S300 goes out. Release the key and power to the ECU comes back.
No error codes show up in smanager. The only way I've been able to get it to start is by pulling a few fuses, disconnecting the ECU and unplugging the S300, letting it sit for a bit then replacing everything and trying again and it fires as normal.
The first time, the only fuse I pulled was the fuse at the back left corner of the fuse box under the hood (I think is is an ECU fuse?).
Weird!
Any ideas? Spike or power surge maybe? Do fuses get old and require replacing - maybe causing too much resistance?

[ECU-MAN]

to start with is your S300 a genuine unit or a fake ?


is your main relay OK ?

is your ignition switch OK

when you first turn your Ignition on to the reds, does the Engine lamp go out after 5 seconds ?

[kraiye]

thank mate.

a. genuine
b. not sure, how can i test? multimeter perhaps?
c. i think so, again not 100%
d. good question. it does normally but i haven't checked what it does when the fault is occurring. a while back i rigged up a vtec light in the cluster and it actually comes on when trying to start the car, which is weird because the s300 led goes off!

what would affect power going to the ecu when you turn the key to start the car?

[dc292177917]

might be immobilizer

[Benson]

I reckon main relay is playing up

When you turn on red's, make sure you can hear the fuel pump

[ECU-MAN]

as above, listen for the click from the main relay when its playing up. The main relay controls power to the ECU

also when it plays up check the engine lamp to see if it goes out, could be a faulty ECU

[kraiye]

will do, thx guys. just have to wait for it to happen again now - hopefully it wont though :) i'll try and take notice of everything i can
btw, what does reds stand for?
everything is pretty normal - the usual lights, fuel pump priming etc - until the final turn of the key when the ecu LED goes out and the dash lights up like a christmas tree!
i do have an alarm installed too, guess that could be a possibility.
which one is the main relay? i'm not great when it comes to the electrics. should learn :)

[zhong]

Right under your kick panel, in a gray box, with a brown base - it's bolted to the dash rail near the main fuse box with a 10mm bolt. Feel the box when you are about to start your car, you should hear an initial click when key is in ON position - then another click after the CHECK LIGHT goes out (around 2 seconds), then it should be "ok to fire".. This usually means the relay is OK (for that run).

If it's the culprit - a quick fix would be to re-solder all the pins on the relay itself - worked a treat for me! There's a DIY somewhere!

Peace.

[Vvvtec]

yup main relay!

[ECU-MAN]

reds means when you turn the key to pos II and the ignition lights light up.

[IV73CI]

3 things..

1) Main Relay
2) Alarm/Immobilizer unit
3) Ignition Barrel.

sus em out and go from there.

[Bludger]

^^

repped


it fires a little but doesn't start.
this sounds like key barrel

[kraiye]

ok its doing it now...
turn to 1, pivot shift lamp does its thing, radio works etc
2, srs on, abs on, oil batt and cel are on but very faint. no noise from the fuel pump but there's a strange vibrating sound behind the glovebox.

ok, just found the main relay. :) must be different on an EM - OR its been relocated
will try replacing it. can u get em at repco etc?

will rep when I'm back on a real computer.
thx

[ECU-MAN]

search the DIY section here for how to repair the main relay

did the engine lamp go out ?

[Bludger]

it fires a little but doesn't start.

does it actually fire up for a second or it just cranks over?

[kraiye]

neither cranks nor fires.

abs light is the one that comes on then goes out with a click after a couple secs. cel never really comes on properly nor does it go out.
WTB- 2000 civic main relay assembly. lol

I'll check the DIY cause I hate payin $50 for $5 worth of components. maybe it'll give me an idea how to fix my varex control unit too. they want $100 for $5 of components!

[Bludger]

schhz, conflicting reports.


it fires a little but doesn't start.


neither cranks nor fires.

[kraiye]

soz. the first time it happened I turned the key and it cranked and fired a little but then stalled. next time I turned the key, nothin.
all good for a few days but suddenly the same thing occurred. this last time there was no cranking at all.

[Bludger]

soz. the first time it happened I turned the key and it cranked and fired a little but then stalled. next time I turned the key, nothin.
all good for a few days but suddenly the same thing occurred. this last time there was no cranking at all.
this sounds exactly like the ignition key barrel.

I would wiggle the key around a bit and try again.

[IV73CI]

Ignition Barrel is ****ed..

Try spraying some silicon contact spray inside the barrel canister.

[kraiye]

regular silicon spray from bunnings or electrical contact cleaner from like jay car or something?
can I inox it? just askin because too sure what may affect electrical contacts.

[update] got the car home :D
to do so I resoldered all relay contacts (pretty dodgely i might add) and went with inox in the key barrel.
the dash lights were much brighter, the CEL went out after a few seconds but still no fuel pump.

where on earth am i gonna find a 4v relay?? jaycar doesn't seem to have them. maybe autobarn? can i pinch one out of something else or out of another car???
and does anyone know what amps?

my current solution... jam a twig in the relay! yep, working a treat!

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/428238_10150589036251817_705736816_9606493_8543368 0_n.jpg

let me know if the image is dead, it's hotlinked from facebook, never tried that before.

[IV73CI]

regular silicon spray from bunnings or electrical contact cleaner from like jay car or something?
can I inox it? just askin because too sure what may affect electrical contacts.

Yes those things.

Silicon spray wont affect electricals it will rather protect it than do any harm...

[kraiye]

ok, another update.
firstly thank you all for your input, taking the time to reply and reminding me how much i love ozhonda!

the tiny coil wire was broken just to the left of the 'twig' (technical term) :)
it now has blob of solder on it and everything is working good as gold.

total cost of repairs $0
savings $46.80
bush mechanics ftw!!!

[IV73CI]

ok, another update.
firstly thank you all for your input, taking the time to reply and reminding me how much i love ozhonda!

the tiny coil wire was broken just to the left of the 'twig' (technical term) :)
it now has blob of solder on it and everything is working good as gold.

total cost of repairs $0
savings $46.80
bush mechanics ftw!!!

Team BLOB ftw!!

[ECU-MAN]

mate you have other issues,

if the car never cranked, fixing that relay has no effect, neither does spraying anything down the keyhole. The electric switch behind the barrel is the issue.

if the ignition switch is also failing, only repair is to replace it. check the DIY section for this as well.

[kraiye]

thx again. if it plays up again i'll just replace the relay and the ignition switch.
i think the initial fault was actually the soldered contacts on the main relay PCB - a couple of them looked a little sketchy but i wasnt sure.
I have a hunch that the wire on the fuel pump relay broke when i was resoldering. either way, all is good for now and time will tell :)

[Mikecivic78]

maybe ur s300 is fake lulz

but seriously, check it.... if the car doesn't want to start it could well be the problem

http://www.hondata.com/s300_counterfeit.html\

GL

[kraiye]

thanks mate. i saw that... crazy hey?! was one of the first things i checked but was pretty sure it was genuine anyway.
:)

[kraiye]

fffuuuu....
ok. car has been fine until today.
when trying to start it everything was normal - the lights, the clicking etc
fuel pump primed, engine cranked, give a couple little short fires and splutters but didn't fire up properly.
i stopped turning the key.
i turned the key again and nothing! the only lights that would come on were park brake, abs and srs.


now... here's one for ecu-man maybe...

with the key out, i activate the 12v main relay by hand.
the led in the ecu comes on and the 4v relay for the fuel pump gets activated for a few seconds then clicks off (just like normal fuel pump priming).

when i try it with the key to reds, the led in the ecu gives a quick flash then goes out, the 12v relay activates (and remains on) but the 4v relay doesn't click at all. wtf????
if i turn the key further to start the car, the main relay switches off.
how can the main relay activate but not have power to the ecu? when i do it by hand with no key, the ecu led lights up!

so, by hand i can at least get power to the ecu but not by key - even though the 12v main relay activates.
it's doin' my head in!!


i pulled the switch of the back of the key barrel and took it apart and cleaned it good. it looks good inside. it's very simple inside, not much can really go wrong with it. i dont know about the two plastic bits on the front of the key barrel (where u put the key in). what are they? one has 2 wires and a tiny swicth - looks like some sort of ground switch - and the other has four wires and a small pcb inside but not mechanically connected to anything. Just sort of hovering above the key barrel.

can i bypass these? or the alarm/immobiliser without removing them?

[kraiye]

great! now the f*n alarm light is on solid after all the screwing around with the electrics >:/ the remote wont disarm it
pamphlet in the glovebox says stealstopper... but viper is on the back of the remote. anyone have a guide/manual how to operate these things? i have the key for it.

f this i'm goin to wash the dog and have a cold one!

[ECU-MAN]

what do you man by 4v relay, have you opend the main relay and are you pressing the relay contacrs yourself ?


the main relay should be prime the fuel pump when the engine is being cranked.

Do you have an EM1 with S300 ? if so then you must have an OBDIIb to OBDI convertion harness. check all the wires for any loose or broken wires.

If yo cover postage costs. I can test your ECU, main relay and convertion harness at no cost if you cover shipping fees.

you should also start doinf voltage tests now with a mulsi meter to find the issue.

[kraiye]

yeah mate i pulled the cover off the main relay. inside is a pcb with 2 relays (and couple other components) on it. one is 12v and seems to control power to the ecu, the other is 4v and controls the power to the fuel pump (they're the voltages printed on them anyway). i dunno if the voltages refer to the coil or the contacts.
anyway... i pulled the cover off each individual relay on the pcb to inspect and operate them - by pushing the contacts together with my finger (ref to earlier pic with a twig jammed in the fuel pump relay :) )

i do have an EM1 with an S300 but i don't have a conversion harness, it's actually built-in to the ecu - would love to take a photo but gotta be careful of data usage this month :(

thanks for the offer mate, really appreciate that. there's a couple things i wanna check out first like the alarm system (found out what model it is) and play with my voltmeter some more. learning heaps - mainly through trial and error :) lol
keep u posted

[ECU-MAN]

just so you know, both relays are 12volt

12v 1ne 4v dont mean their voltages.

you should press both at the same time as that is what is ment to happen. to me it sounds like your ECU is not getting power.

[kraiye]

just went back out to it with the volt meter... disconnected the ECU and turned the key to reds.
IGP1 and 2 are both getting 12volts if I use the car body as the ground.
However, if I use the IGP1 or 2 ground I'm only seeing 3.5 volts.

I assume the ECU is powered off 12v.
Where does the IGP wire ground to? Can I piggy back this wire and run a ground wire straight to the body?

[ECU-MAN]

PG1 and PG2 A23 and A24 are the ECU ground, so check for 12v between IPG1 IPG2 to PG1 PG2

the ECU is 12v

also test VBU C1 for constant 12v ( with Key off )

[kraiye]

all have 12v when grounding fo the body.
all show approx 3 volts when using the appropriate ground wire when key is at reds.
the main ground wire on the key barrel even shows 3v on reds and 12v when off.
the clock and radio and electric windows all work normal at reds too.
what's reds mean btw?

[ECU-MAN]

there is no ground wire on the key barrel

what colour is hte wire you are getting 3v on.

[kraiye]

this is the wire on the key barrel. sorry i think it's ground for the starter maybe??
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5213/keybarrel.jpg

and these are the ecu wires - yellow/black. grounded to the black wire next to them when testing.
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7929/ecupins.jpg

[ECU-MAN]

when you say
grounded to the black wire next to them when testing

do you mean you are checking for voltage between the yel/blk and the blk wires ? I hope your not saying you join the yel/blk to the blk and then checking for 12v



dont use LG2 to check for ground. That is only a ground for the 5v Rail


I blk/wht wire at the ignition switch could be acc, ign or sts ( start signal ) from memory its start signal but use you meter or test lamp to confirm.

[simmy]

inb4 fake s300

[kraiye]

god no! i'm not connecting the wires together. hehe i didn't word that too well i guess. just checking voltages between them.
would love to just get an auto electrician in but financially that's out of the question at the moment :(

any suggestions? i don't get why it would read 12v grounded to the body but 3v using the ground wires. wtf?!

when i leave the car overnight and turn the key in the morning, everything goes well up to reds. power to ecu, fuel pump primes, cel comes on and goes out. but when i turn the key to start nothin happens except the radiator fan comes on. i turn the key off... turn the key on again and nothin works again - no power to ecu etc. this is fubar!

[ECU-MAN]

so your getting only 3v between yel/blk and the blk wires ? can you confirm your not talking about 3v between yel/blk and LG2 wire.

[kraiye]

unless there's 3 LG2 wires...
definitely not using the LG2 ground.

this is what i get on reds:

ipg1 + pg1 = 3v
ipg1 + pg2 = 3v
ipg2 + pg2 = 3v
vbu + lg1 = 3v

ipg1 + car body = 12v
ipg2 + car body = 12v
vbu + car body = 12v

normally i'd be inclined to think the ecu is broke. but i get the same result wether the ecu is plugged in or not!
when i get home i'm going to check some other random grounds around the car and see what i get and try to trace the black ground wires from the ecu and see if there's a bad connection somewhere. it's interesting but annoying at the same time.



inb4 fake s300

quoted from earlier :) ...



to start with is your S300 a genuine unit or a fake ?

...


thank mate.

a. genuine
...

and


maybe ur s300 is fake lulz

but seriously, check it.... if the car doesn't want to start it could well be the problem

http://www.hondata.com/s300_counterfeit.html\

GL


thanks mate. i saw that... crazy hey?! was one of the first things i checked but was pretty sure it was genuine anyway.
:)

[ECU-MAN]

it does indicate you have a bad earth.

the ECU earths on the thermostat hosing. Check that

[kraiye]

sweet thanks! saves me tracing wires :D

[kraiye]

ffs! lost the whole msg I just typed. OH has been pissin me off lately.
anyway, it was the driver side lower engine earth.
car is on the charger, cranks but didn't fire up.
will check tune tomorrow before trying again.

[kraiye]

tune all looks good. uploaded the map again anyway, overwriting everything just to make sure but still no firing.
everything looks normal to start, it crank and cranks but just won't fire! after a few goes there's fuel vapour coming out the exhaust so I know the injectors are working.
my plan is to unplug the injectors, remove the spark plugs and check by eye if there's spark.
if there is I've got no idea what to do next.
if there's not... I've still got no idea where to go next. lol

[ECU-MAN]

check for spark.

if you have no spark then
1, check the blk/yel wire going to the dizzy for 12v
2, check the ICM input for pulse signal from the ECU,
3, check the tacho out from the ICM for a pulse.
4, check the negative side of the coil for a pulse
5, check your aftermarket alarm

[kraiye]

have u got an EM1 pin out mate? i have apparently an OBD2b pin out from a US site. the plugs are the same (obviously) but the wire colours etc are so different.

[mocchi]

have u got an EM1 pin out mate? i have apparently an OBD2b pin out from a US site. the plugs are the same (obviously) but the wire colours etc are so different.

would be same function
use multimeter to test it out.

[ECU-MAN]

As above
dont worry about colours, just pin location

[kraiye]

Amazing what a new set of plugs can do! lol.
FFS!!!
Y didn't anyone tell me to change the plugs? ;)
So everything is working and car is running but I have to bypass the alarm. For some reason it's stuck in an alarm state and won't reset.
It can stay as is for now, at least i have a running car... and VTEC! :D
So, I had faulty fuel pump relay inside the main relay, bad/loose earth on the engine, dead spark plugs and an alarm fault.

Thanks again to everyone for your input. It helped a lot and I learnt heaps :) Everything will be back to normal as soon as I get this alarm sorted. Cheers.