Raising the car = better handling???

[quang]

Hi everyone,
So i recently went to the suspension shop (won't name it) to get a wheel alignment.
upon have a discussion with the mechanic, he was saying that given my setup (buddyclub N+ coilovers, adjustable rear camber upper arms, adjustable camber & caster front upper arms, relatively new bushes, lowered to 2-2.5 finger gap "1inch" above the tyre) if i were to raise the car would ride and handle better, not to mention it would probably solve my scrubbing issues.

i'll say now i have a very basic understanding of suspension setups but general knowledge would say lowering the car, lowers centre of gravity hence less potential for bending moments and weight transfer, keeping the car flatter allowing for more grip and therefore better handling.

The reasoning the mechanic gave me was something along these lines, (sorry i can't recall everything he was saying and trying to search on the net isn't coming up with what he was talking about):
Essentially given the setup i had, by lowering the car i had affected the SRI/A? (steering something inclination/angle). These angles cross each other and the centre of gravity lies in line and above with the crossover point, I had moved the crossover point away from the centre of gravity.
For ideal handling, the closer the crossover point is to the centre of gravity the better the car behaves, this is achieved by changing the SRI/A. Ideally you want the centre of gravity below the crossover point, but this is practically impossible for manufactured cars. Even F1 cars can't achieve this but get close.
Through raising my car, i would be bringing the crossover point closer to my centre of gravity, and allow the suspension to travel properly and hence overall increase the performance of the cars handling.
Not to mention gain back additional adjustability for camber and toe as it currently can't go any further for some reason. The front camber can't move any more from -0.5 and the rear toe can't go any less that 1.5mm toe in (3mm overall).

Sorry for the massive post but does this make any sense to anyone?


Thanks

[trism]

Yes this is correct.

Centre of gravity is all well and good, but do some research on roll centres, as well as things like suspension and steering arm angle, drive shaft angles.

There is a lot more to good handling than just lowering a car.

[senna]

Yes, listen to your mechanic, he knows what he is on about!

By lowering the car too much the suspension is working on the limits of what it was designed to do, so your bushes and ball joints are close to being bound up.

You have to remember that suspension arms work in an arc, so when they move up and down, the hubs are also moving in and out and the rack ends are also pushing the steering angle in and out. This is where bump steer occurs.

Centre of gravity is another important thing, but as you've learnt already there are many more things to consider about suspension than just looks.

[quang]

ok, so my question is, my car is still 1 inch above the tyre, realistically only about 1-2cm lower than stock and IMO not vey low.
I realise since changing to coilover it may have a different geometry to the stock suspension but wouldn't a coilover be designed lower the car and hence not have such a negative impact on the handling of the car?
If i were to raise the car the amount the mechanic was recommending i would be raising it higher than stock height.
Also, what about some of the ozhonda members race cars? they are all low, i do realise they may have some extra components for adjustability.

[e240]

I reckon 1" is fine.

Some race cars tend to run roll centre ball joints which compensate the roll centre for lowered cars.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131305-MFACTORY-Extended-Ball-Joints-Roll-Centre-Adjusters

Some explanation
http://www.suspensionparts.info/showthread.php?t=27475

[munkaii]

Roll center location relative to cg dictates the extent of body roll acting on the vehicle (in a simple sense). Lateral cornering forces are applied at the cg location, resulting in a bending moment acting around the roll center location. The magnitude of this bending moment dictates the amount of body roll and lateral load transfer. You want to minimize this as much as possible.

On the dc5 (hopefully this is the car you have as I haven't read thoroughly), lowering the vehicle lowers the cg location, however given the dc5 geometry, it also lowers the roll centre location. Going too low increases the distance between roll center and centre of gravity.

This is why after market manufacturers have designed so called "roll center adjusters". What these serve to do is to lower the suspension pickup point of the lower control arms, thus raising the roll center position and closing the gap between rc and cg.

So in regards to raising your car, raising your car will raise cg but also raise the roll center. What you want to find is the balance between low cg and higher rc.

[munkaii]

Cars running lower generally have roll center adjusters or offset ball joints etc to assist with steering geometry and body roll characteristics.

[senna]

ok, so my question is, my car is still 1 inch above the tyre, realistically only about 1-2cm lower than stock and IMO not vey low.
I realise since changing to coilover it may have a different geometry to the stock suspension but wouldn't a coilover be designed lower the car and hence not have such a negative impact on the handling of the car?
If i were to raise the car the amount the mechanic was recommending i would be raising it higher than stock height.
Also, what about some of the ozhonda members race cars? they are all low, i do realise they may have some extra components for adjustability.

What we are talking about here is really about maximising the potential of your set-up. This does require additional components like roll centre adjusters, extended tie rod ends with shorter rack ends etc.

The drop on your car isn't extreme, i don't think your current set-up will be terrible, but i'm not sure why you can;t get more than -.5 camber on the front...

[munkaii]

Whoops thought I was posting on clubitr. Concept is pretty much the same though.

[quang]

Hmmm, thanks for all the info guys!!
Senna, for the fornt camber, it seems to change with every place i go to. Some can get slightly more camber but it seems to max out at -1deg. which i think is wrong, I have SPC caster and camber adjustable upper arms where the camber is supposed to be adjustable by up to 2.5 deg.

So for the people with a basic setup similar to mine. Are there any basic rules of thumb for car ride height settings for civic's in particular?
Given standard arms and the like, would there be an optimal height to make best use of the standard geometry?

[quang]

all good, been doing some reading and slowly figuring things out. thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys!

However, has anyone heard of essentially the geometry "locking" so no more adjustment could be made. The story i keep hearing is that the front can't be adjusted anymore.
Can anyone confirm the points where the front camber adjustment is? It's on one of the lower control arms or steering arms isn't it or in that area, sorry may have the wrong terminology?

[lilthug]

good information here


good read from that links e240 provided

[senna]

all good, been doing some reading and slowly figuring things out. thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys!

However, has anyone heard of essentially the geometry "locking" so no more adjustment could be made. The story i keep hearing is that the front can't be adjusted anymore.
Can anyone confirm the points where the front camber adjustment is? It's on one of the lower control arms or steering arms isn't it or in that area, sorry may have the wrong terminology?

Your suspension wouldn't be locked out - that would be only if the arms were on such an angle that the ball joints physically couldn't move anymore...

You might find that the SPC arms just don't have that much adjustment. The upper control arm is where the adjustment comes from - pretty sure the SPC arms have a sliding ball joint like most, however the locking bolts are on the side of the ball joint rather than on the top. I'm assuming that your 2.5 degrees of adjustment is 2.5 total, so only 1.25 degrees in or out from any point.

[mugen_ctr]

Hmmm, thanks for all the info guys!!
Senna, for the fornt camber, it seems to change with every place i go to. Some can get slightly more camber but it seems to max out at -1deg. which i think is wrong, I have SPC caster and camber adjustable upper arms where the camber is supposed to be adjustable by up to 2.5 deg.

So for the people with a basic setup similar to mine. Are there any basic rules of thumb for car ride height settings for civic's in particular?
Given standard arms and the like, would there be an optimal height to make best use of the standard geometry?

It really depends i guess... u can get away with running lower ride height, but on most budget coilovers which majority ppl here run including me, the optimum height ive found was around ur height due to the coilover performance. Theres too many variables to really be thinking about if its mainly a road car IMO.. What the other guys have said is spot on, but in our case, its not necessary and bit over kill IMO, considering we dont track on most given days... though wouldnt hurt to have all those extra adjustments

Consider running a slight bigger sway bar as well to help cope with cornering, ITR is the go for most ek, But i believe its a hollow bar, which does make it bit more forgiving compared to some of the other swaybars out there, like whiteline that im using... 20mm Solid bar... Rigid as hell, an can make things hairy...

I also believe u have to also consider the movement of swaybar, which can also attribute to the over all handling, which on mine atm, the sway bar is doing nothing due to the fact that the ride height is simply too low for the swaybar to really be working, if i had higher ride height and also short end links it might fix the issue :/

And as far as standard OEM control arms, if ur goin for coilovers and lower height, invest in camber arms, so u can play around with variety configuration that suits ur needs....

[Scholzey]

what i would have thought is that you want your suspension angles of arms etc to be at standard positions using shocks that like to work in that range which match your spring rates, and springs that you can stand, with sway bars to take away grip from the back to give to the front and make the car more neutral, and run flatter around corners, or you could get bigger tires on the front to get more grip and make the car more neutral and hope your springs are stiff enough to keep the car relatively flat.

now to lower the car you would ideally move all your suspension points UP, therefor making the car lower, but keeping the ideal suspension geometry.

hopefully my car will handle well one day.. :P

[chauster]

You'd rather listen to a bunch of randoms on ozhonda than listen to your mechanic? Lol

On topic your mech knows what his on about.

[trism]

I don't get it. All the randoms have given the same info as the mechanic.

[chauster]

Yes I can read.

You know what I mean.

[rhys.l]

Why not check the mechanics advice? There are too many people who think mechanics are some sort of geniuses. May not be the case here, but plenty I know are just bogans with a good set of tools. I'd sooner listen to, or at least take on board, the opinions a bunch of other educated people, especially when they have other sources to back up what they are saying.

[chauster]

Why not check the mechanics advice? There are too many people who think mechanics are some sort of geniuses. May not be the case here, but plenty I know are just bogans with a good set of tools. I'd sooner listen to, or at least take on board, the opinions a bunch of other educated people, especially when they have other sources to back up what they are saying.

Some have been doing cars longer than you have been alive. But then again I know what you mean

[quang]

Mugen_CTR - Thats what i thought, i know lowering the car can result in a harsher ride hence why i haven't dumped it like some. I have the ITR rear sway and have got adjustable camber arms both front and rear :). I have lots or adjustibility in the rear but it appears the fronts are rather limited. Not sure why i would think that i would be able to get more than -0.5 deg.

Chauster and rhys.l - When i was talking to him, i didn't fully understand what he was talking about and since i couldn't remember all the details (not very useful when trying to search on google), i know that some people on here have a wealth of knowledge, whether they be internet mechanics or real ones, they may be able to point me in the right direction. After reading more from the links provided, he is correct, i was trying to figure out the reasons why as to rather just going ok, i'll raise my car.

the part i was trying to figure out is, he recommended raising my car maybe another 1 inch, given my car hasn't been lowered that much from stock, raising it another inch would put it above stock height, so i was questioning whether raising that much would actually be beneficial or worse.

[e240]

You'd rather listen to a bunch of randoms on ozhonda than listen to your mechanic? Lol
On topic your mech knows what his on about.

That really depends who the mechanic is...there are bunches of random mechanics out there too you know. :-p

[butterfingers]

Mugen_CTR - Thats what i thought, i know lowering the car can result in a harsher ride hence why i haven't dumped it like some. I have the ITR rear sway and have got adjustable camber arms both front and rear :). I have lots or adjustibility in the rear but it appears the fronts are rather limited. Not sure why i would think that i would be able to get more than -0.5 deg.

Chauster and rhys.l - When i was talking to him, i didn't fully understand what he was talking about and since i couldn't remember all the details (not very useful when trying to search on google), i know that some people on here have a wealth of knowledge, whether they be internet mechanics or real ones, they may be able to point me in the right direction. After reading more from the links provided, he is correct, i was trying to figure out the reasons why as to rather just going ok, i'll raise my car.

the part i was trying to figure out is, he recommended raising my car maybe another 1 inch, given my car hasn't been lowered that much from stock, raising it another inch would put it above stock height, so i was questioning whether raising that much would actually be beneficial or worse.

not worth it. ugly as ****

[mugen_ctr]

Mugen_CTR - Thats what i thought, i know lowering the car can result in a harsher ride hence why i haven't dumped it like some. I have the ITR rear sway and have got adjustable camber arms both front and rear :). I have lots or adjustibility in the rear but it appears the fronts are rather limited. Not sure why i would think that i would be able to get more than -0.5 deg.

Chauster and rhys.l - When i was talking to him, i didn't fully understand what he was talking about and since i couldn't remember all the details (not very useful when trying to search on google), i know that some people on here have a wealth of knowledge, whether they be internet mechanics or real ones, they may be able to point me in the right direction. After reading more from the links provided, he is correct, i was trying to figure out the reasons why as to rather just going ok, i'll raise my car.

the part i was trying to figure out is, he recommended raising my car maybe another 1 inch, given my car hasn't been lowered that much from stock, raising it another inch would put it above stock height, so i was questioning whether raising that much would actually be beneficial or worse.

0.5 camber max?!?!? doesnt sound right, Most camber kit allow for +/-3 degrees or so, much like my Hardrace camber kit, But from my experience -0.5 is a good enough on a DD, ATM im running around -1 at the front and -0.5 at rear, so far so good :)


That really depends who the mechanic is...there are bunches of random mechanics out there too you know. :-p

thats true.... what one mechanic says another may say other wise... And also, what may work for one may not necessary work for another, IMO, find a balance between the two, looks and performace.

To OP theres not much point in goin all performance if looks, and by looks i mean how you feel about it looks, not others, is goin to be effected.... If u aint satisfied with it looks, than surely theres gotta be a compromise :D, It is ur car at the end of the day, and its not a race car so dont stress too much :)

[butterfingers]

If raising the car is good for performance why are race cars so low

[lil_foy]

If raising the car is good for performance why are race cars so low

There's a difference between a low centre of gravity and incorrect suspension geometry...

[trism]

If raising the car is good for performance why are race cars so low

http://i.imgur.com/GtNBq.gif

[butterfingers]

http://i.imgur.com/GtNBq.gif

explain.

[trism]

Read the entire thread my friend.

When you lower a street car excessively, suspension geometry is thrown out the window, instead of arms having equal movement both ways they are maxed out in one direction, roll centre is misaligned.

A race car is setup to be this low by moving, the suspension mount points to different positions than stock, and even include things like adjustable roll centres and sway bars on the fly.

Please research and know what you are talking about, as well as reading the entire thread before you come in and start questioning things.

[butterfingers]

yes i know lowering a car beyond its intended ride height increases the distance between roll centre and centre of gravity, which results in worse handling.

my question was what they did to compensate for it with circuit cars.

which you answered, more or less.

[curtis265]

If raising the car is good for performance why are race cars so low

beacuse they're designed for it...

edit: trism said it better

[senna]

yes i know lowering a car beyond its intended ride height increases the distance between roll centre and centre of gravity, which results in worse handling.

my question was what they did to compensate for it with circuit cars.

which you answered, more or less.

Also Aero has a lot to do with this - you'll notice all high end race cars don't actually run that much camber due to lack of body roll and the added downforce of aero packages...

When you get in to aero alot of conventional road based suspension tuning is thrown out the window...

[butterfingers]

aero also gives the ilusion the car is alot lower than it really is

[senna]

Well yes and no, are we talking ground clearance height or suspension height?

Yes the cyber evo has aero packages that almost touch the ground, but if you look at the wheel to arch gap it is still quite a bit lowered compared to a normal evo

http://www.jdmstyletuning.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/suna.jpg

http://djacejay.com/evo8.jpg

[curtis265]

lol what is with that uneven wheel gap on evos

[senna]

The way the Evo suspension works - its designed to roll so the active diffs work properly, it is a rally car remember!

[quang]

0.5 camber max?!?!? doesnt sound right, Most camber kit allow for +/-3 degrees or so, much like my Hardrace camber kit, But from my experience -0.5 is a good enough on a DD, ATM im running around -1 at the front and -0.5 at rear, so far so good :)



thats true.... what one mechanic says another may say other wise... And also, what may work for one may not necessary work for another, IMO, find a balance between the two, looks and performace.

To OP theres not much point in goin all performance if looks, and by looks i mean how you feel about it looks, not others, is goin to be effected.... If u aint satisfied with it looks, than surely theres gotta be a compromise :D, It is ur car at the end of the day, and its not a race car so dont stress too much :)


-0.5 doesn't sound right to me either. maybe i'll just try to bring it to another shop and make sure they know about all the adjustable bits i have.
well actually, i'm trying to get to as many trackdays as possible this year. the car has had its trouble over the past year and everything is coming good now so ready to put it back out.
I guess all i was curious about was the recommendation to essentially raise it above stock height, would it be better? but yes i need to find a compromise and do some more reading to understand whats going on.

[quang]

Read the entire thread my friend.

When you lower a street car excessively, suspension geometry is thrown out the window, instead of arms having equal movement both ways they are maxed out in one direction, roll centre is misaligned.

A race car is setup to be this low by moving, the suspension mount points to different positions than stock, and even include things like adjustable roll centres and sway bars on the fly.

Please research and know what you are talking about, as well as reading the entire thread before you come in and start questioning things.

to drill down a little further, race cars are built from the ground up, but what about the everyday racer with his toyota or honda, i know there are bits of kit like roll centre adjusters etc. in general you still see those cars very low. e.g. jdmyards car is essentially a stock body isn't? i.e. no modification to the mounting positions

[senna]

I would stick with your current height and get the alignment sorted.

A lot of cars are released from the factory with less than perfect geometry. This is usually as a result of packaging and development constraints. It doesn't mean that its wrong, it just means that It's not 100% race car perfect.

If you really want to you could look into roll centre adjusters to get the lower arms back down on a better angle

[lil_foy]

Also if your front camber arms aren't working well for you, I recommend hardrace arms!