Gear Shifting Q.

[EuroAccord13]

Ok, This is for Manual Drivers only....

Shifting when car is slowing down...

Which one will maintain the longest lifespan of the clutch...

1. Normal down shifting, clutch to slide to the correct revs..

2. Rev Matching, Heel Toe Yada Yada (Note: Not Matching the Revs correctly = to sliding LOL)

3. Slowing down till almost stationary and then pop it in Neutral from your last gear....


Just write your opinions... no flaming and no arguing, just your thoughts about it!

THANKS!

[|N|]

i think 1. is more like the proper way of driving manual... at least thats wat i do most of the time...

but when the mood comes.. i go 2....

but rarely 3.

[ITRBoI]

down gear one gear at a time, but usually i go from 5th to 3rd, that's only when im taking corners, but on the striaght than one gear at a time

[dc2dc2dc2]

the thing is...his question is which one will ensure the clutch will last longest?? not ur style of driving.

[|N|]

the thing is...his question is which one will ensure the clutch will last longest?? not ur style of driving.


i say 3. is the best for clutch's life

[PhatSol]

Option 3 will be lowest wear on the clutch but it's also very poor driving style.

[|N|]

Option 3 will be lowest wear on the clutch but it's also very poor driving style.

agree

[faijai]

number one i found is good for low revs since it doesnt jerk ya car, match reving is good i found when i had a loud exhaust cos it was annoying to down gear and have my engine reving so loud and also eliminates the jerking involved.

[LAGOOT]

i use option 1 and 2 when i drive.

[PrahVtec]

1 and 2 both involve clutch work , whilst 3 doesnt .. however you'd be using up your brakes to slow down instead of your gears..

1 and 2 prefered ..

[redliner]

usually 1.. . i used brake, coz its cheaper to replace than clutch :)

[joyride]

1 2 and 3.

[Kandy]

Option 3 will be lowest wear on the clutch but it's also very poor driving style.
why?!?!
I mean why is it poor style?
I still can't downshift properly, either the car doesn't slow down enough so I have to brake most of the speed off, or the car goes really loud and jerks like crazy and scares the sh*t out of me :( And how do you match revs when going down gears, I just thought that's what makes my car shaky and jerky when I release the clutch?!?

[faijai]

match reving is like a poor mans version of heel toeing, just tape ur accelerator whilst u clutch in and down gear so that u bring ru revs up in order to make the car not jerk. the car jerks only because ur engine and ur revs are not at the same speed. i hope i said that right...

[spiller]

Option 2 minimies the effect on the clutch/drivetrain when compared to straight downshifting, as it involves rev matching. 2 is the safer option (if you can do it properly) when cornering quickly becuase it allows sufficient braking for the corner. As for 3, that will decrease the life of your brakes and who does it anyway......its sooooo damn boring!

I use option 2.

[tegstar83]

match reving is like a poor mans version of heel toeing, just tape ur accelerator whilst u clutch in and down gear so that u bring ru revs up in order to make the car not jerk. the car jerks only because ur engine and ur revs are not at the same speed. i hope i said that right...

What do u mean its a poor mans version of heel toeing, ur not making sense race car drivers do it like that as well so wat u mean?????

[spiller]

I think that when he says rev matching he is referring to merely blipping (tapping) the accelerator before letting out the clutch on a down shift, with no application to the brake. V8 supercars do not do it this way.......they heel/toe on every downshift.

[Steer^Gimic]

i have made a habbit out of using 2 all the time, unless i am hungover or driving home at 7am feeling seedy.
if i used 3, i would have bought an automatic.
and to answer the q, spiller is right, 2 is healthiest for your drivetrain.

[viperx]

What do u mean its a poor mans version of heel toeing, ur not making sense race car drivers do it like that as well so wat u mean?????

oh no not this again. if u'd search you'd find stuff

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4882&page=6&pp=12&highlight=heel+toe

double clutching is something you can do while you heel-toe. it is not 'poor man's version of heel toeing'. your brakes are your main stoppers. your engine and gears is your assistant and it also helps you to be in the right gear when you pull away from the bend.

heel-toeing is a deceleration technique. simply a technique to rev-match (using your heel on the accelerator) to use the engine and the gears to decelerate so as to save your synchros and prevent chassis instability at the same time as using your brakes.

double clutch can also be used to prevent compression lock for downshifting to accelerate.

[PhatSol]

why?!?!
I mean why is it poor style?
I still can't downshift properly, either the car doesn't slow down enough so I have to brake most of the speed off, or the car goes really loud and jerks like crazy and scares the sh*t out of me :( And how do you match revs when going down gears, I just thought that's what makes my car shaky and jerky when I release the clutch?!?

It is poor style firstly because you are giving the brakes a hard time. You will wear the brake pads much faster if you just drop it into N to decellerate. On cars with limited braking capicity you will also end up overheating the brakes. If you tried it in a bus or a truck you would be gone.

Secondly it gives no throttle control over the car. If you need to accelerate out of a dangerous situation you can't. If it's on a corner and the rear comes loose, you have no throttle control at all to save it.

[yfin]

The question was about clutch life. No 3 is best for clutch life. I don't wait till car is almost stationery either - i will put it into neutral at the moment I know I will need to come to a stop. The difference in brake pad life is negligible.

[SIKCVC]

No offence to your knowledge of cars/driving but anyone who answered anything other than 3 is an idiot... it was a simple question with a simple answer... The least amount of times on the clutch, the better FOR the clutch.

yfin is 100% on the money!!! In day to day driving theres a tip a lot of you guys need... Gears are for GOING and BRAKES are for stopping! He's right, the brake pad wear is negligible, especially when comparing the costs involved in the replacment of the clutch and brakes.

phatsol, a truly good road driver shouldn't NEED for the car to be in a suitable gear for the use of power in an emergancy. In the occasion that emergancy pops up without warning, they should be proficient enough to chuck it into gear and on the gas out of danger.

Second of all, most honda's are FWD, how will throttle control help if the back comes out around a corner?

[SIKCVC]

PS I'm one to talk on over-shifting, i've been told on a few occasions I shift like its going out of fassion (Ie, i'm never happy with the gear I'm in)

[viperx]

dats true, the difference in brake pad life is neglegible.

however, i do think that regardless of skill, having a moving car out of gear is probably a bad habit. no matter how quick you are at getting back into gear, it takes one slip-up in an emergency situation to land yourself in deep sh*t. and downshifting simply keeps your engine in the powerband, in case you need to get yourself away. Therefore, if you ask the question on a purely mechanical basis, then yes 3 is the best answer- you'll never be able to humanly match the revs so accurately. but still if you're reasonable at it it wont be that bad either... and to answer the question on a global perspective, with a real moving car, I would answer 2.

it's just like having fire extinguisher around- 99% of the time a useless, irritating eyesore, but you'll appreciate it if you had needed to use it.

[yfin]

having a moving car out of gear is probably a bad habit. no matter how quick you are at getting back into gear, it takes one slip-up in an emergency situation to land yourself in deep sh*t. and downshifting simply keeps your engine in the powerband, in case you need to get yourself away.

Being in gear is good when accelerating and around corners, etc - but what if you are slowing to a stop (ie you see traffic lights go red ahead)? I would be in neutral when slowing down. What is the emergency that can arise that requires INSTANT acceleration? And so INSTANT that you cannot clutch in, select gear and then accelerate? I have never been in a situation where I have been in "deep shi*t" in neutral coasting to a stop.

I have heard people say, "oh, that means you are not in control of the car whilst in neutral" - I just don't get that. You are coming to a stop.

[viperx]

euroaccord never mentioned whether he was slowing to a red light or a corner.

anyway, some years ago i nearly got rearended by a commodore while slowing at a light before because he was too stupid or drunk to slow down. if I wasnt in gear that time, yes, i might have had a lion's badge sitting on my shoulder. yes, I had to run that red light.

i know, it is a rare incident, but then, so are fires.

[yfin]

anyway, i've nearly been rearended by a commodore while slowing at a light before because he was too stupid or drunk to slow down. if I wasnt in gear that time, yes, i might have had a lion's badge sitting on my shoulder. yes, I had to run that red light.
i know, it is a rare incident, but then, so are fires.

Fair enough. There are lots of variables though - ie it assumes you know the car behind you can't/will not stop and it also assumes you are in the right gear at the time you want to accelerate. If you are not in the right gear you will have to change to a lower gear - or if you do not see the car - it makes no difference. It also assumes you have somewhere to go and not a whole lot of stationery cars in front of you or coming from the other direction.

I presume you would also sit stationery at traffic lights with clutch depressed and 1st gear selected for the same reason? Not dissing you - just something I was told never to do by my mechanic father!

I can see the "you've got to get away" logic - I just think the risk is very small and the time to select gear and move is so slight.

[viperx]

true. n like anyone else- i sometimes get slack and cruise down to the red light in neutral as well. but since we're on discussion of what is 'best', then, there's my opinion. :)

[bennjamin]

Second of all, most honda's are FWD, how will throttle control help if the back comes out around a corner?


throttle control is still very relevant, ofcourse - differential and power + grip etc all matter too...Have you been in a FWD under such circumstances ? I have a few times ( partly my own stupidity that got me there , mind you :)) -with "throttle control" i have been able to control the car from brink of a spin in mild oversteer and regain. Its more to do with the weight shifting is it not ?


Oh - anytime the clutch is inbetween 100% engaged , and 100% disengaged . . . its wearing down so why not go for option 3 i guess.

[Vivski]

Okay, ignoring the question... because clutch is only one element and I think we all agree that 3 will cause the least wear on the clutch ONLY.

1) Is used for regular around town driving. Entire drivetrain shares the work. Not good when using engine braking. Best for shifting at low revs in traffic.

2) Is used when you're having fun (or an emergency brake) and need to keep the car stable under deceleration. It will also allow you to stop (skill permitting) in the smallest possible distance. It's the fastest and the smoothest way to shift, and when you get it right there will be little to no wear on the clutch. However, the synchros in the gearbox are working twice and hard and will wear faster.

3) Is bad practice. When approaching lights I shift down to 3rd then pop it into neutral at about 30kph. I wouldn't want to be doing this at any kind of speed or in traffic. The only real time it's suitable to cruise in neutral is for casually pulling up to a red light or stop sign. Note that when the car is out of gear, it is a lot easier to lock the wheels if you punch the brake (unless you dont have ABS).

Best emergency stop is to brake hard, hell-toe down a couple of gears (probably to 2nd) and concentrate on not locking the wheels (and not hitting that poor doggy). Shifting down will give the engine lots of revs and momentum, so it will therefore be harder to lock the wheels (especially important in FWD). If you do this without matching revs (ie. heel-toeing) your car will hate you because it will send a jolt through the entire drivetrain. Lucky you're driving a Honda. ;)

But going back to which is best (in terms of wear and safety). I'd say a combination of the three.

-Viv-

[VTEC16]

2 or dont drive at all :P

[Kandy]

*sigh* does anyone want to teach me how to drive properly? ^.-

[SIKCVC]

Bennjamin: Yes, I have azinis at the front and eagle F1s at the back, so its every day driving for the arse end of my car to slide out in the wet. I just continue with the power I have and ease off the throttle till it grips, during that time I control the slide with steering. Unlike in the 200sx where I would feather the throttle and bring the car back to strait gently because as we all know (those who drive RWD) if you just ease off the gas/off it rushed, the car WILL whip back, and have fun slidding out the other way.

Put simply, yes I've been in that situation many times, gas or no gas the car has always reacted the same...

I still fail to see why the 3rd option is bad practice, i can understand where everyone is coming from, but it doesn't relate to his question. Not to mention he actually says to take it out of gear just before stall point (N.B. it is illegal to coast in Neutral the car must be in gear at all times unless parked, that includes traffic lights). There's nothing wrong with this type and to be honest suits most people to a tee. Its all up to how YOU feel like driving but most track drivers (this is what they told me) will tell you that gears are for going and brakes are for stopping. I got told not to show pony at an advanced driver cource because I downshift too much. There was nothing wrong with it when were mucking around on the course after but during normal driving they said it was a waste.

[yfin]

Best emergency stop is to brake hard, hell-toe down a couple of gears (probably to 2nd) and concentrate on not locking the wheels (and not hitting that poor doggy).

According to the Jim Murcott Advanced Driving school the best emergency stop distance is achieved by depressing clutch and brake at the same time. When the car is in gear it still has POWER to the wheels - you want to disengage that power and apply maximum possible braking. When I did the course I tried 2 emergency stops in the wet from 80k/ph in a non-abs car - one with clutch in - one trying to drop gears at the same time. The clutch in method stopped the car in a shorter distance.

[Kawasaki]

are we all so cheap? Parts get worn all the time, just drive normally?!!?

[Vivski]

According to the Jim Murcott Advanced Driving school the best emergency stop distance is achieved by depressing clutch and brake at the same time. When the car is in gear it still has POWER to the wheels - you want to disengage that power and apply maximum possible braking. When I did the course I tried 2 emergency stops in the wet from 80k/ph in a non-abs car - one with clutch in - one trying to drop gears at the same time. The clutch in method stopped the car in a shorter distance.

I have to dispute this. When you dont feed fuel into the engine, it actively slows. There are two effects of engine braking (it's called engine braking for a reason).

1) When in 2nd at 80kph (using a 95 VTi as the example). No brakes with clutch in you coast at 80. No brakes and clutch up, the engine slows the car. So when you add the brakes, the engine (if at high revs) helps the brakes.

2) The engine while helping slow the car will help keep the wheels from locking. When you are driving put the clutch in and punch the brake. You'll lock the wheels. When in gear it will be harder (but still possible) to lock the wheels.

If it was faster to stop by depressing the clutch, then why isn't that what racing drivers do?

At low revs the engine will work against the brakes, when at high revs it will work with the brakes. So just depress the clutch when the revs drop.

I understand this is off-topic, but interesting all the same.

-Viv-

[Q_ball]

opt 1 and 2 i use the most, but in regards to the actual question, opt 3 would produce the biggest lifespan...
terrible drivin technique but, quite dangerous in sum instances

[Vivski]

opt 1 and 2 i use the most, but in regards to the actual question, opt 3 would produce the biggest lifespan...
terrible drivin technique but, quite dangerous in sum instances

It is dangerous in some instances. But it's also something you'd do only when coming up to a red light or stop sign. When slowing for a corner you dont just pop it into neutral. When you're coming up to traffic going slower, you dont pop it into neutral. You'd only ever do it coming up to stop somewhere.

And if we're going to be silly about it, the best way to conserve the clutch only is to not use it. Just pull it out of gear!

-Viv-

[CJL]

Depends how fast the hair pin is coming up if im on top of it 1 other wise 2:p

[aimre]

If it was faster to stop by depressing the clutch, then why isn't that what racing drivers do?

At low revs the engine will work against the brakes, when at high revs it will work with the brakes. So just depress the clutch when the revs drop.


Because often the need to apply power after braking so its better to be in a gear

also if u dont depress the clutch while emergancy braking and u look a wheel, uve stalleded ur car:)

u shouldnt emergancy brake in gear, why fight the engine and the car when u can just fight one (the car... duh) :):):)

[Vivski]

Because often the need to apply power after braking so its better to be in a gear

also if u dont depress the clutch while emergancy braking and u look a wheel, uve stalleded ur car:)

u shouldnt emergancy brake in gear, why fight the engine and the car when u can just fight one (the car... duh) :):):)
I'm not sure you understand the concept of engine braking. If the revs are high, you're not fighting the engine, it's helping you stop.

And if it was faster to stop without engine braking, the racing drivers would put the clutch in while they brake and let it out in the right gear just before the corner. It's just not the way it works.

It's true, if you lock the wheels, you stall the engine. And as soon as the wheels unlock, the engine will fire up again. Same effect as a push start. It's not great for the engine, but you shouldn't have the wheels locked for more than a split second anyway because when the wheels are locked you basically don't slow at all. :)

Engine braking could make the difference between avoiding little Jimmy or hitting him. :p

-Viv-

[TODA AU]

It's improved engine braking that makes you faster around a track when you fit a lightened flywheel....
(Just thought I'd throw that in there :))

[yfin]

Engine braking could make the difference between avoiding little Jimmy or hitting him

Who told you shifting when emergency braking is the best way to stop in an emergency? I would not be stuffing around with trying to downshift at the same time - it is a distraction and the engine will be fighting with the brakes. You will stop in a further distance and run over little Jimmy :D

When driving a manual car and emergency braking is considered the question arises about what you might do with the clutch pedal. Some have suggested that leaving the clutch alone is a good idea until just before you stop. They are wrong.

In an emergency hit the brake and clutch both at once in a "two foot panic". This is important for two basic reasons:

Once you have stopped there might well be danger all around you. There might even be a large lorry caught up in the same problem steaming towards you with its tyres on fire from braking. In circumstances such as these you do not want to be restarting the engine. The idea is to have maximum control and maximum options. If you hadn't declutched then you might have stalled the engine even at 60 mph by locking the wheels. A stalled engine might also affect power steering and servo assisted brakes. (Most servo assisted brakes have a vacuum reservoir which will provide assistance for several brake applications after the engine has stopped.)
Declutching prevents the engine from fighting the brakes just when you need maximum braking effort.
"Two foot panic" is taught on skid pans.

Source: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html

"If your car has ABS (anti-lock brakes) keep your foot hard down on the brake pedal until you are safe, press the clutch at the same time as you brake to allow the system to work at maximum efficiency." SOURCE:
http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/CarControl/Emergency_braking.htm


Also see page 19 of this pdf-
http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Download.asp?path=/Documents/practical_test/dt1/Chapter%203.pdf


And clutch in or out section of this motorbike test - http://hometown.aol.com/tsgtram/tsgtram2.html

[EuroAccord13]

Since when this topic turned into a Safety Issue?

[aimre]

I'm not sure you understand the concept of engine braking. If the revs are high, you're not fighting the engine, it's helping you stop.

And if it was faster to stop without engine braking, the racing drivers would put the clutch in while they brake and let it out in the right gear just before the corner. It's just not the way it works.

It's true, if you lock the wheels, you stall the engine. And as soon as the wheels unlock, the engine will fire up again. Same effect as a push start. It's not great for the engine, but you shouldn't have the wheels locked for more than a split second anyway because when the wheels are locked you basically don't slow at all. :)

Engine braking could make the difference between avoiding little Jimmy or hitting him. :p

-Viv-

i understand the concept... but why waste ur clutch when u got brakes to stop, the only time really u should use engine braking is when coming down a hill so ur brakes dont fade.

if ur uncomon with the proceduere and try u could end up in a sticky situation.

becoz our engines arent as high compression, the brakes slow us down alot quicker

[SIKCVC]

And if it was faster to stop without engine braking, the racing drivers would put the clutch in while they brake and let it out in the right gear just before the corner. It's just not the way it works.


FOR CRAPS SAKE!!! Racing car drivers use it because they want to keep the revs high for the exit of the corner and to prevent brake fade!!!

The idea of doing it gear by gear is to save having to hold the throttle down while you boot the revs right up from gear 5 to match the difference of gear 2.

Watch an entire race... Notice the smoke coming off the tyres in an emergancy when a driver ****s up??? I'm just a little sure that the guy was more stressed about slowing the car up ASAP than what gear he was in.

In all honesty why dont you go out and test it with you friends.

Go to a large car park. draw a line on the ground.
First test...
Hit the line at 50km/h, slam the brakes on, no down shifts (talking threashold braking here not pussy footing)
second test
same speed, downshift while stopping.

See which one is shorter. No one but you will be suprised.

[bennjamin]

. . . .in braking - myself, i always downshift while applying the brakes ofcourse- as to keep myself in the right gear relative to road speed and situation.
Only - pre-empting for when I will accelerate again. NOT for the shortest braking distance :cool:

[PhatSol]

When did this topic change from every day slowing down & clutch life to emergency braking techniques?

[EuroAccord13]

Holla To That :)

[Vivski]

There seem to be multiple topics going here. I figure it's 'cos we all now agree on the question of clutch life. And I'm finding this discussion quite interesting.

Stopping from 50km/h. I would be cruising in 3rd, hit the brakes and there would be no point downshifting because I wouldn't get the revs I need for the engine to help the brakes.
However, pulling up from 100km/h is a different story.

So I will, I'll find a road, try it (100-0) with engine braking and without and come back with the result. I will be surprised if using only the brakes stops it quicker, but I'm prepared to be wrong. I think engine braking will stop me quicker because when I'm hammering it up to a tight corner braking late, I downshift and instantly feel the extra stopping forces as I'm pushed against the seatbelt. But as I said, if I'm wrong, I'll be happy to publicly admit it.

And racing drivers dont downshift sequentially simply to preserve their brakes otherwise they wouldn't do it in qualifying.

I understand that in a panic situation for the average driver, downshifting would be too much to ask. But I'm used to downshifting, I have a 20yo car with tiny pads... they need all the help they can get. So in the times I've been forced to stop quickly, it's instinctive for me to engine brake. It's particularly effective on gravel, 'cos it's so easy to lock the wheels when not using the engine.

Obviously if it turns out that I'm wrong, I'll have to change my driving style.

-Viv-

[viperx]

It's improved engine braking that makes you faster around a track when you fit a lightened flywheel....
(Just thought I'd throw that in there :))

i thought you dont get as much engine braking when you fit a lightened flywheel (less rotating mass=less inertia)

[viperx]

When did this topic change from every day slowing down & clutch life to emergency braking techniques?

fair point- its gotten a bit off track, but im actually interested, why does clutch life matter so much to you really, are you using carbon fibre?

[viperx]

FOR CRAPS SAKE!!! Racing car drivers use it because they want to keep the revs high for the exit of the corner and to prevent brake fade!!!

The idea of doing it gear by gear is to save having to hold the throttle down while you boot the revs right up from gear 5 to match the difference of gear 2.



ha ha ha, if you need to do it for brake fade, it means you haven't got enough braking capacity.

having the car in gear also assists chassis stability to some extent.