Offsets for rims - Looks vs Functionality (track work)

[Bruunz]

Hi All,

For months i've been trying to figure out what rim i want and at what offset. I've read a lot of the s2ki stuff on what actually fits and what work is required but i have unable to find a thread that relates to a track setup and what are the consequences of having a terrible (but looks great) offset.

I've narrowed down my choices to 3 rims (17x9, possibly 17x10 for rears):
Volk CE28
Advan RS
Advan RZ

These rims seem to look great with an offset equal/lower than +45. But i dont have any idea if offsets affects grip.

I took my S2K to the track not too long ago and i hated it. I bought it as is, lowered on adjustable Koni (yellow) coil overs of some kind with 18x7 (maybe 7.5). I had no confidence entering or exiting a corner. The rear would break loose on entry... No warning either. No tyre squeal. It would grip and then just break loose. I also had to wait way past the apex to give it any kind of decent accelration. It was a little demoralising thinking you were doing 80 or 90% then in a millisecond you've gone to 110%.

I want to put stock shocks back in and buy new rims. Just not sure if "crappy" offsets will negate my efforts to get more grip.

Anyone have any ideas / experiance to share?

Thanks

[butterfingers]

i didnt know offset affected grip..

[curtis265]

Offset only affects how far out the wheels are. Wider is better until you start having clearance issues, and potential stress on the drivetrain but that would be minimal, so no worries there.

Koni yellows are great - Tune your shocks properly - the back shocks are clearly too hard..

Are you running camber? Sometimes to run low offsets people will camber the wheels significantly (i.e.stance|works), and end up with stupidly small contact patches

S2k's are known to be twitchy with oversteer, keep that in mind too

[Bruunz]

Well that's why i'm still scared of my car because of the twitchy behaviour.

The Koni Yellow seem to be hieght adjustable only????? I dont think i am running much camber at all as the rims looks visibly straight.
The car is quite low though, 2nd lowest setting on the Koni's. i have about 1.5 finger gap on rear and about 2 at the front.

Would a low offset change the track of the car and wouldn't this also change the geometry??

[anfo2gig]

previously when I owned a S2k, I had 17x9 RPF1 with 245/40 tyres. I had buddyclub N+ coils and from memory the camber at front was 1.5 and my rear was 2.5
and max castor (as much as the wheel alingment guy could get it at). I did have some toe in and out but can't remeber the spec (if i find the wheel alignment I'll let you know the exact toe in and out spec I had). Alignment setup was base on the UK alignment with abit of tweeking

I took the car to wakefield with this setup, I felt the car was more planted and was not twitchy at all. Achieved a 1.13 at wakefield.
When i took the car in stock form with buddy club n+ coils, i found the car was quite twitchy and make me nervous during turning. Achieved 1.17 at wakefield that time.

Try the UK alignment setup
http://s2000.com/forums/wheels-tires-suspension/10981-alignment-question.html

"Here it is, and I am running these specs now. The turn in is incredible.
Honda (UK) Recommended Optimum Specification

Front
Caster Left 6° 45"
Caster Right 6° 45"
Camber Left -1° 00"
Camber Right -1° 00"
Toe Left 0° 0"
Toe Right 0° 0"
Total Toe 0° 0"

Rear
Camber Left -2° 00"
Camber Right -2° 00"
Toe Left 0° 20"
Toe Right 0° 20"
Total Toe 0° 40"

AP1 cars, the general consensus falls in the following ranges:

Front toe - 0" to 1/8" toe out
Front camber - -1.5 to -1.75 degrees
Rear toe - 1/4" to 3/8" toe in
Rear camber - -2.0 to -2.25 degrees
Factory alignment spec
Front
Camber -0.5d +/- 0.17d
Caster +6.0d +/- 0.25d
Total Toe In 0+/- 2mm
Rear
Camber -1.5d +/- 0.17d
Total Toe In 6mm
"

[anfo2gig]

Here is the PDF, page 5 for the Optimal UK Spec that I was talking about on the previous post
http://clubhondaspirit.com/ftpforo/storm/2012_07_10%20Alineaciones/S2000Alignment%20(Robrobinette.com).pdf

[TypeS]

If your rear is breaking loose, I would look at the tyres first of all.
If they're decent, then add more rear toe-in.

I think low offsets and wide wheels work well for the track.

By lowering the offset and effectively widening the track, it is supposed to give better grip through a reduction in lateral load transfer from inside to the outside of the tyre, but off course at the expense of greater wear. How much more grip? I can't tell you. But it can only be beneficial in the corners.

The other thing I like (Only with RWD!) is that the scrub radius increases with the lower offset. The increasing positive scrub radius makes the car harder to steer, but provides so much more feedback and car behaviour on cornering, compared with neutral or negative scrub radius.

You might also want to look at running stiffer springs if you plan to widen the track.

[curtis265]

Well that's why i'm still scared of my car because of the twitchy behaviour.

The Koni Yellow seem to be hieght adjustable only????? I dont think i am running much camber at all as the rims looks visibly straight.
The car is quite low though, 2nd lowest setting on the Koni's. i have about 1.5 finger gap on rear and about 2 at the front.

Would a low offset change the track of the car and wouldn't this also change the geometry??

low offset will change the track but will have minimal effects on the geometry - lowering it has a bigger effect

The koni yellows haev a knob at the top you can turn - it comes with a handle that you attach to the top and twist

There is also an idea amount of camber - straight wheels aren't necessarily ideal in the corners, cambered wheels aren't ideal on the straights

[Bruunz]

previously when I owned a S2k, I had 17x9 RPF1 with 245/40 tyres. I had buddyclub N+ coils and from memory the camber at front was 1.5 and my rear was 2.5
and max castor (as much as the wheel alingment guy could get it at). I did have some toe in and out but can't remeber the spec (if i find the wheel alignment I'll let you know the exact toe in and out spec I had). Alignment setup was base on the UK alignment with abit of tweeking

I took the car to wakefield with this setup, I felt the car was more planted and was not twitchy at all. Achieved a 1.13 at wakefield.
When i took the car in stock form with buddy club n+ coils, i found the car was quite twitchy and make me nervous during turning. Achieved 1.17 at wakefield that time.

Try the UK alignment setup
http://s2000.com/forums/wheels-tires-suspension/10981-alignment-question.html

"Here it is, and I am running these specs now. The turn in is incredible.
Honda (UK) Recommended Optimum Specification

Front
Caster Left 6° 45"
Caster Right 6° 45"
Camber Left -1° 00"
Camber Right -1° 00"
Toe Left 0° 0"
Toe Right 0° 0"
Total Toe 0° 0"

Rear
Camber Left -2° 00"
Camber Right -2° 00"
Toe Left 0° 20"
Toe Right 0° 20"
Total Toe 0° 40"

AP1 cars, the general consensus falls in the following ranges:

Front toe - 0" to 1/8" toe out
Front camber - -1.5 to -1.75 degrees
Rear toe - 1/4" to 3/8" toe in
Rear camber - -2.0 to -2.25 degrees
Factory alignment spec
Front
Camber -0.5d +/- 0.17d
Caster +6.0d +/- 0.25d
Total Toe In 0+/- 2mm
Rear
Camber -1.5d +/- 0.17d
Total Toe In 6mm
"

So that first setup is for AP2 only?

Thanks for that information too! Really appreciate it.

[anfo2gig]

No worries :) Glad if I can help.

all the informations is for AP1, as I had an AP1

The first set of wheel alignment is the Optimal UK alignment spec
and the 2nd set wheel alignment is the factory spec

[Bruunz]

Thank you all for your replies. You've all been a great help.

If you were in my situation, would you return to stock shocks to help with learning the cars behaviours, or stick with the Koni's and just fix the setup?

[anfo2gig]

IMO, I would stick with the Koni and fix the setup, unless the Koni coilvers has gone bad.
I assume you will be putting new rims so having stock height will make the car look abit too high, So better off getting another coils (if the current one has gone bad) then returning back to stock.

[thebob]

Go and get a good alignment. I just changed my rear alignment from -2 to -3 and I noticed quiet the difference in being able to control the rear on corner exits. Another item that really changed the way the car handled was adding a decent wing. That more then anything gave me the best sense of comfort and confidence. It stopped the jelly feeling the car got once above 120 and cornering. Also it might pay to get a corner balance.

[curtis265]

Soften the konis first and see how you go

[threesix]

Buy some decent tyres

[greek_rambos2k]

previously when I owned a S2k, I had 17x9 RPF1 with 245/40 tyres. I had buddyclub N+ coils and from memory the camber at front was 1.5 and my rear was 2.5
and max castor (as much as the wheel alingment guy could get it at). I did have some toe in and out but can't remeber the spec (if i find the wheel alignment I'll let you know the exact toe in and out spec I had). Alignment setup was base on the UK alignment with abit of tweeking

I took the car to wakefield with this setup, I felt the car was more planted and was not twitchy at all. Achieved a 1.13 at wakefield.
When i took the car in stock form with buddy club n+ coils, i found the car was quite twitchy and make me nervous during turning. Achieved 1.17 at wakefield that time.

Try the UK alignment setup
http://s2000.com/forums/wheels-tires-suspension/10981-alignment-question.html

"Here it is, and I am running these specs now. The turn in is incredible.
Honda (UK) Recommended Optimum Specification

Front
Caster Left 6° 45"
Caster Right 6° 45"
Camber Left -1° 00"
Camber Right -1° 00"
Toe Left 0° 0"
Toe Right 0° 0"
Total Toe 0° 0"

Rear
Camber Left -2° 00"
Camber Right -2° 00"
Toe Left 0° 20"
Toe Right 0° 20"
Total Toe 0° 40"

AP1 cars, the general consensus falls in the following ranges:

Front toe - 0" to 1/8" toe out
Front camber - -1.5 to -1.75 degrees
Rear toe - 1/4" to 3/8" toe in
Rear camber - -2.0 to -2.25 degrees
Factory alignment spec
Front
Camber -0.5d +/- 0.17d
Caster +6.0d +/- 0.25d
Total Toe In 0+/- 2mm
Rear
Camber -1.5d +/- 0.17d
Total Toe In 6mm
"

i was running the UK setup for a while but i found it still understeered a little so i just added another -1 degree to the front.