BBK suggestion

[whokid]

I started to feel the oem brake were getting softer, looking for a set of BBK upgrade.

A few brands available for s2k like:

Spoon
Ap racing
Stoptech
Villwood
Brambo
Ect, can you guys give me some suggestions I really need to improve the stopping performance...

Thanks

[s2krazie]

Apparently some bbk's void insurance if you have an accident. Only heard so, havn't looked into it, so if anyone knows for certain, I'd appreciate your experiences.

[bennjamin]

Just to suggest

OEM brakes are fine for any road thrashing you can do.

If your brakes are getting soft ( overheating pads or fluid) then it's time for braided lines , new fluid and sports pads. Perhaps even slotted discs. You don't need a $2k+++ BBK

[stndrd]

If you have your heart set on a bbk we have many options in the ATS catalouge for S2K

[Tai]

Stuff what every is saying, not only with BBK help you stop beter but it looks 10 times better than OEM.

I say go for it.

Spend that 2k ++++ YOLO !!

[mocchi]

http://www.ind-distribution.com/images/Mart-20

inb4 buy brembos use doral tires

wat

[aozora]

Just to suggest

OEM brakes are fine for any road thrashing you can do.

If your brakes are getting soft ( overheating pads or fluid) then it's time for braided lines , new fluid and sports pads. Perhaps even slotted discs. You don't need a $2k+++ BBK

This. But don't go slotted rotors.

Unless you're regularly going track days (regular as in more than 8 times a year)/endurance racing AND driving the car to it's absolute limits... then maybe look at a BBK. But sorry I highly doubt any of those are the case on OH :p

[junoki]

Just to suggest

OEM brakes are fine for any road thrashing you can do.

If your brakes are getting soft ( overheating pads or fluid) then it's time for braided lines , new fluid and sports pads. Perhaps even slotted discs. You don't need a $2k+++ BBK

+1 to this

[bennjamin]

This. But don't go slotted rotors.


blanks are fine....but why not slotted ? Cross drilled can (depending on design) be a waste of time and safety

[aaronng]

With brakes, I strongly recommend you disclose it to your insurance company. Many accept it as a modification. If you have a claim and they see your aftermarket brakes, it will be the easiest way for them to deny your claim.

[aozora]

blanks are fine....but why not slotted ? Cross drilled can (depending on design) be a waste of time and safety
The main problem S2k rotors face is cracking. Slotted rotors only alleviate the problem. I would never recommend cross drilled either. Blank rotors are cheaper and will last longer typically :)

[bennjamin]

The main problem S2k rotors face is cracking. Slotted rotors only alleviate the problem. I would never recommend cross drilled either. Blank rotors are cheaper and will last longer typically :)

Sorry but why are s2k rotors prone to crack ? Can you back this up with some examples for everyone to observe


Remember that a BBK comes with slotted/dimpled and possibly cross drilled rotors as standard too ?

[curtis265]

slotted rotors only alleviate the problem??

[vyets]

Just to suggest

OEM brakes are fine for any road thrashing you can do.

If your brakes are getting soft ( overheating pads or fluid) then it's time for braided lines , new fluid and sports pads. Perhaps even slotted discs. You don't need a $2k+++ BBK

This!
Brambo lmao, it all comes down to how much you want to spend, that's if you have your heart set on bbk.

[whokid]

Just wondering if i changed a pair of front 4 piston calipers but still using same OEM size rotor, is there gonna be much improvement?

[curtis265]

depends on the pad you use.

[aaronng]

BBK on street just allows you to lock your brakes or engage ABS more easily. The surface on the street is very poor and bumpy, compared to the flat and grippy stuff on most race tracks.

If you use the same type/grade of pad as you have now, then even with a BBK you will feel that your brakes will go soft (fade) after going at it hard like you are experiencing now.

[whokid]

The ABS engages every frequent recently. Have around 2.5k budget to play around, few things I am worried about bigger rotor bbk set up. 1 which brand is easier to find the replacement rotor and pads locally, 2 Which brand is more reliable and wheels friendly, since i don't want to run spacer, my front wheels are rpf1 17*8 +45. I know they just clear spoon calipers without spacers....

Do you guys recommend spoon calipers? My mate asked me not to waste money on it since they just look good and no racing team use them except SPOON lol

[ALPS]

With bigger brakes comes the need for better performing wheels/tires and suspension to clear the kit and handle the extra braking power.

Once you start upgrading a car to perform like a racing machine, it becomes less daily'able and the driver cops a lot of abuse from australia's rough roads..

Some people dont daily their S, where some others do..

Some people dont drive their S in the wet or on rough roads, where some others do..

All depends on what you know your car will be going through and what would and wont work for you.

When i get my next s2 soon, i'll be looking at BBKs as well and this thread could be useful..

Unfortunately i don't know much except for Brembo is a very well recognized brand globally and they do Brakes for many many cars, factory and racing.

I've seen a lot of S2s with Ap Racing as well, must be a reason..

Alps

[ALPS]

Try going through the mountains around Apollo Bay way, Skenes Creek Road through to Forest - Apollo Bay rd or Beech Forest - mount sabine rd.

sorry forgot to add the 'Black Spur'
Just to suggest

OEM brakes are fine for any road thrashing you can do.

If your brakes are getting soft ( overheating pads or fluid) then it's time for braided lines , new fluid and sports pads. Perhaps even slotted discs. You don't need a $2k+++ BBK

[aaronng]

Try going through the mountains around Apollo Bay way, Skenes Creek Road through to Forest - Apollo Bay rd or Beech Forest - mount sabine rd.

sorry forgot to add the 'Black Spur'

Love Black Spur. But if you are having brake fade from the heat due to frequent heavy braking, then the same will be similar for BBK with similar type of pads. Using higher-rated or metallic pads helps more. Using standard "street" pads on a BBK will still have the same issues.

[aaronng]

The ABS engages every frequent recently.
You need new tyres. :)

[whokid]

They are KU36 50% tread left...

[vyets]

Try going through the mountains around Apollo Bay way, Skenes Creek Road through to Forest - Apollo Bay rd or Beech Forest - mount sabine rd.

sorry forgot to add the 'Black Spur'

oem brakes still more then enough for those roads unless your driving like it's a hillclimb championship event which 99.99% of the people here wont be.

Spoon calipers use the same brakepads as your stock calipers.

[aaronng]

They are KU36 50% tread left...

How old are they? If they are a few years old, then the compound would have hardened, eventhough KU36 starts out with a low 180 wear rating. Once hardened, the tyre grip will drop off very quickly eventhough you still have 50% tread left.

[ALPS]

oem brakes still more then enough for those roads unless your driving like it's a hillclimb championship event which 99.99% of the people here wont be.

Spoon calipers use the same brakepads as your stock calipers.

All i'm saying is that the s2000s OEM brakes are not fine for "ANY road thrashing". For those who do like to drive spirited and more than just a 'sunday cruise' on the mountains. i know people who have mentioned many times how the brakes fade in these circumstances.. I would even believe it if proven that the mountain runs put more strain on your car than what you would on the race track.

[aaronng]

All i'm saying is that the s2000s OEM brakes are not fine for "ANY road thrashing". For those who do like to drive spirited and more than just a 'sunday cruise' on the mountains. i know people who have mentioned many times how the brakes fade in these circumstances.. I would even believe it if proven that the mountain runs put more strain on your car than what you would on the race track.

Having been on both, I'd say that the race track is still harder on brakes because more heat is generated especially if you go non-stop for a 10 minute session (turns my new brake fluid black and pedal feels spongy. Goes back to normal after I bleed it out). However, I will also say that OEM pads are insufficient for mountain runs. That being said, a BBK is also not required for mountain runs. What is required are good sports pads that can withstand the heat and still deliver stopping performance at high temperature.

[ALPS]

very fair statement and i agree! you don't require a BBK for mountain runs or daily driving, and even if you do get a BBK, you need to make sure you have the better pads. But if you're already considering it, knowing cost involved. Why not? i'd go for a brake upgrade if i can justify my funds to go to it anyday..
Having been on both, I'd say that the race track is still harder on brakes because more heat is generated especially if you go non-stop for a 10 minute session (turns my new brake fluid black and pedal feels spongy. Goes back to normal after I bleed it out). However, I will also say that OEM pads are insufficient for mountain runs. That being said, a BBK is also not required for mountain runs. What is required are good sports pads that can withstand the heat and still deliver stopping performance at high temperature.

[aaronng]

very fair statement and i agree! you don't require a BBK for mountain runs or daily driving, and even if you do get a BBK, you need to make sure you have the better pads. But if you're already considering it, knowing cost involved. Why not? i'd go for a brake upgrade if i can justify my funds to go to it anyday..

Agreed, if it is a "want", then the decision is easy. Just go for it if the OP can afford it!

If it was a "need" where the OP was trying to correct a certain deficiency with his AP1, then it gets a little complicated. Since the OP stated he wanted to improve braking performance, it will be important that we identify what braking issues the OP is experiencing now. Otherwise he might end up in an ugly situation where thousands of dollars has been spent but the braking performance has not improved as he expected.

[whokid]

Thanks for all the suggestions, obviously propel have different opinions. Thanks for everyone sharing their own knowledge and expirences. :)

[aozora]

Sorry but why are s2k rotors prone to crack ? Can you back this up with some examples for everyone to observe


Remember that a BBK comes with slotted/dimpled and possibly cross drilled rotors as standard too ?

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/744832-why-do-s2k-rotors-crack-more-than-usual/
Knock yourself (yourselves?) out. Plenty more threads on this topic available too.

Yes but I'm talking about an OEM setup :)
From what I understand, cracking mainly occurs from sudden changes in temperature, metal fatigue or poor metal composition. A BBK rotor setup will ideally be thicker/larger/be 2-piece to allow for thermal expansion and be able to handle heat better through improved cooling vanes making cracking less of an issue. I'm guessing if you over-engineer a setup, you could probably engrave hello kitty on them if you wanted to and it wouldn't crack (braking performance however...) :p But it also depends on the metal composition and how it has been cast. A lot of factors... probably better to speak to a metallurgist really for a much better explanation :)

Anyway this page explains some of the points better than I can...
http://www.urgedesigns.com/brakes.html


slotted rotors only alleviate the problem??
Yes and cross drilled even worse - I had an engineer explain it to me through diagrams (not directly about rotors mind you but how to avoid weak spots in metal structures) but I cbf drawning diagrams haha.
The best way that I can (poorly) explain it is to file out a small groove in a pencil. Snap it. It snapped along the groove most likely right? Now snap a pencil without a groove. Which one was harder to snap?
Of all the cracked slotted rotors I've seen, the cracks develop within those "slots" (or on 2 piece rotors, they seem to develop small cracks near the alloy hat bolts and/or through the slots). That's not to say though that you shouldn't use slotted rotors at all... just preferably not on a OEM S2000 rotor setup :)

[9large]

whokid, if you're just cruising the streets or doing spirited driving/mountain runs, the stock rotors are more than enough. It's a common myth that gets propagated. The only time I've seen rotors crack is at the track where people haven't cooled down or warmed up their rotors properly (read, gradually). The brakes gets a TON more load at the track than even fast mountain runs. There's no way you would generate that much heat on the road, and if you do, you need to take that kind of driving off the streets. And I agree with aaronng - if you just want a BBK, then go for whatever takes your fancy - it won't matter - but you won't need a stronger brake setup for road speeds and driving conditions. After several years of tracking, I can tell you the stock setup is quite strong, especially for a single piston setup. Also, if you want a proper BBK (not just Spoon caliper posers), then 8 +45 is not enough. Sometimes, spoke design counts too.

If your pedal feel is getting soft, try flushing and changing the brake fluid. If you want a different/better feel to the brakes, you can also try changing the pads or fluid. At the end of the day, your limiting factor is your tyres. I've used various brake setups over the years, and it's always disappointing when folks spend $$$ on the notion that their braking is suddenly better, when they haven't considered the car's whole braking system, and all they do is potter around the streets and pose.



. . .

Yes and cross drilled even worse - I had an engineer explain it to me through diagrams (not directly about rotors mind you but how to avoid weak spots in metal structures) but I cbf drawning diagrams haha.
The best way that I can (poorly) explain it is to file out a small groove in a pencil. Snap it. It snapped along the groove most likely right? Now snap a pencil without a groove. Which one was harder to snap?
Of all the cracked slotted rotors I've seen, the cracks develop within those "slots" (or on 2 piece rotors, they seem to develop small cracks near the alloy hat bolts and/or through the slots). That's not to say though that you shouldn't use slotted rotors at all... just preferably not on a OEM S2000 rotor setup :)

That is relatively true for rotors with channels/slots or holes drilled post-fabrication. The cracks typically form where there is less structural integrity - from the edges of the slot or hole. Your analogy would also be more correct if you had to snap the pencil by standing on it, not exerting a directed force. The slots are used to channel hot gases (and even water) from the surface of the rotor, not to accommodate rotor expansion.

[bennjamin]

Just another point

S2k Shares the same rotors and pads as ep3s , Dc5rs amongst a few - never heard of these cars having stock rotors crack at any degree ?!

[aozora]

That is relatively true for rotors with channels/slots or holes drilled post-fabrication. The cracks typically form where there is less structural integrity - from the edges of the slot or hole. Your analogy would also be more correct if you had to snap the pencil by standing on it, not exerting a directed force. The slots are used to channel hot gases (and even water) from the surface of the rotor, not to accommodate rotor expansion.

You'd hope that all channels/slots are in the cast and not post-fabrication! I would hope it's illegal to do so otherwise (although I hear of people machining the inner surface of their rims to increase offset... and also some drilling other studs in rotors/wheels to change stud pattern.. scary).
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/972/rotorzr.jpg
For reference, these rotors were only 1 track day old or so before they cracked (pic stolen off Vyet's old forgotten blog :p)... which also confirms that it's not a distribution of force issue either (At one stage people were saying that possibly the 1 piston caliper was not distributing the pad pressure evenly on both sides, but even with a 4 pot it still happens)

The outer edge to a very small degree would act as a cantilever though as I don't think the force exerted on the "pencil" in this instance is 100% even. But I get what you're saying? And yes I believe slots also help with the deglazing of pads.


Just another point

S2k Shares the same rotors and pads as ep3s , Dc5rs amongst a few - never heard of these cars having stock rotors crack at any degree ?!

I don't understand either, I'm not involved in other Honda communities so I'm not sure why it's an issue with just track S2000s (never seen it happen on a daily driven S2000)? I don't know if being RWD has anything to do with it as that's really the only difference? Or perhaps, the front hubs are slightly smaller and that plays into it somehow? I dunno - just throwing guesses now.
Locally, I know S2000 people seem to crack rotors faster if they're using R-spec tyres. And in the states, I don't know how much more popular the S2000 is over other Hondas for track use, which may explain why there's more notable cases?

Again this isn't to scare away people from using the stock setup. I know plenty of people on the stock setup with plain (myself included) and even slotted faced rotors tracking just fine.
I'd be curious to find out what the OP went for in the end?

[aaronng]

I don't understand either, I'm not involved in other Honda communities so I'm not sure why it's an issue with just track S2000s (never seen it happen on a daily driven S2000)? I don't know if being RWD has anything to do with it as that's really the only difference? Or perhaps, the front hubs are slightly smaller and that plays into it somehow? I dunno - just throwing guesses now.

From my understanding (trying to draw out whatever engineering knowledge that is left in my head after all these years), cracking across the entire rotor like in the photos is usually caused by severe temperature differences across the face of the rotor. To achieve such extreme temperature difference, you will have to be using very aggressive brake pads that will generate that sort of friction (which is what we all want, brake pads with high friction coefficient) and also be able to maintain that friction even at high temperature without fading (which is what we all want as well, pads that work from 200-800 ºC!). So if you go through all the cases where the rotors have cracked in this manner, we should find that a common denominator, which should be the very aggressive brake pads (metallic or carbon metallic), one-piece or two-piece OEM/street/sports rotors, combined with prolonged durations of hard braking (race track with many short-medium straights followed by tight corners, tracks that Honda drivers love).



Locally, I know S2000 people seem to crack rotors faster if they're using R-spec tyres. And in the states, I don't know how much more popular the S2000 is over other Hondas for track use, which may explain why there's more notable cases?
Tyres with more grip will allow more braking force to be generated because they won't lock up or engage ABS. So more temperature generated in the same corner compared with S2000 running street tyres.



Again this isn't to scare away people from using the stock setup. I know plenty of people on the stock setup with plain (myself included) and even slotted faced rotors tracking just fine.
I'd be curious to find out what the OP went for in the end?
My opinion is that the set up needs to match what the car is used for. Most of us track for fun and are not running in competitive events where we are willing to push the car to the limits where a misjudgement results in the car running into the wall. For those who want to push all the way to that limit, then the setup needs to match so OEM rotors or even sports brand rotors will be insufficient.

The combination of the pads, aggressive braking and high temperatures actually necessitate the use of rotors designed for proper racing purpose. Not the regular/mid-range stuff that we all buy.

[curtis265]

some good posts here guys

[EKVTIR-T]

What brand is that cracked slotted rotor above?


inb4rda

[infurNOS]

Sorry but why are s2k rotors prone to crack ? Can you back this up with some examples for everyone to observe


Remember that a BBK comes with slotted/dimpled and possibly cross drilled rotors as standard too ?

There have only been a few examples, and that is after heavy tracking

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/744832-why-do-s2k-rotors-crack-more-than-usual/page__st__150

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/244790-cracked-rotors-after-4-track-events-pic/

[AusS2000]

If you can consistently put your car into ABS (modern cars don't lock up) your brakes are fine. If you can't, try changing your fluid once in a while. At worst, swap out your lines for new ones.

The reason BBKs come with cross drilled slotted rotors is that ricers love that shit!

[curtis265]

If you can consistently put your car into ABS (modern cars don't lock up) your brakes are fine. If you can't, try changing your fluid once in a while. At worst, swap out your lines for new ones.

The reason BBKs come with cross drilled slotted rotors is that ricers love that shit!

especially those amg mercedes owners, fools!

[bennjamin]

There have only been a few examples, and that is after heavy tracking

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/744832-why-do-s2k-rotors-crack-more-than-usual/page__st__150

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/244790-cracked-rotors-after-4-track-events-pic/


Funny - after heavy tracking ANY standard rotors will likely weaken and crack ! Some members in this thread gave the impression that its a problem unique to S2K's Pfft.

[AusS2000]

Some members in this thread gave the impression that its a problem unique to S2K's Pfft.

Most members of this thread are unaware of any cars other than the S2k (me included). ;)

[bennjamin]

Most members of this thread are unaware of any cars other than the S2k (me included). ;)

rofl :)

[aozora]

*snip*

Good post - to add, it appears that majority of the cracks appear on the outer face. I'm assuming this has something to do with the outside having better chance of cooler breeze, uneven pad pressure (from the piston applying pressure on the other side) etc.

I've personally never cracked a rotor (kept a close eye on the rotor thickness, checked for hairline cracks, always had a cool down lap, drove around the pits before parking etc). BUT I've been running street tyres... 2013 will see semis and a BBK upgrade here :)


What brand is that cracked slotted rotor above?

inb4rda

Not sure sorry.


Funny - after heavy tracking ANY standard rotors will likely weaken and crack ! Some members in this thread gave the impression that its a problem unique to S2K's Pfft.

Haha sorry if I was one of those people, I meant only at the track. Daily it's absolutely fine hence why people were confused that the OP wanted a BBK :p

[vyets]

What brand is that cracked slotted rotor above?


inb4rda

rda lmao my old brakes

I also cracked my PMU's as well on the first day out, though the crack is very tiny and i've done 5 track days after that and it hasn't gotten any bigger :O

[lolmclol]

http://www.ind-distribution.com/images/Mart-20

inb4 buy brembos use doral tires

wat

http://www.stealthcoatings.co.uk/uploads/1/3/7/9/13792959/2993742_orig.jpg

initial D drift spec brambo caliper covers :thumbsup: