cam shafts... stock or aftermarket??? TODA?

[philipminge]

Hey guys. i have a 2005 AP2.

its currently in a million pieces atm but parts waiting to go in before tune are:
HKS headers, Berk cat, J's 70 RS, Password JDM carbon intake.

this will be getting tuned but i want to know if its worth putting a cam in it??

if so what cam do people recommend?? Might run an AEM EMS computer but am not at that stage yet

will be a track car as well as a sunday street car.
want reliability...

any thoughts welcome!!

cheers

[ALPS]

if you've got the money, why not?

[DreadAngel]

Search around for recommendation on cam sizing, afterall you don't want to go too big if you still want it to be a nice street car [big cams = high/lump idle, lack of low-mid range torque/power which the F20C already lacks of, depending on aggressiveness might need to increase redline therefore stress on valvetrain and internals = $$$ to upgrade parts] then again mild cams don't give that much peak power increase though they generally do improve the car overall.

[philipminge]

Yeh im trying to get an idea of what to do. I didnt really want to raise the redline bar as i do drive this thing quite hard every time im in it... and i still want the reliability.
i guess i was hoping for a good all rounder cam.... might be asking for the impossible.

How bad is the idle on these big cams.... is it still drive-able on the street.... or would it be a pain?
never driven a honda with an after market cam...

really im trying to chase a bit more power... im not expecting the world but i want a bit more out of her.
just dont know if all this trouble is worth it if its only minimal gains...

i dont mind changing valve springs if i have to and or valves....

thanks dreadangel

[philipminge]

dreadangel - what experience have you had with cams? have u every used any aftermarket cams? worth the trouble?

[ALPS]

on an s2000, not worth the trouble, save your money, and go Forced induction if you want gains.. Every component of the s2000 was designed to work at its best from factory. only FI will give you noticeable gains.

[philipminge]

thanks for your input ALPS. this car will never get any form of FI. not looking for those types of gains... BC cams claim 13whp untuned and 20whp tuned.... those kind of gains are all im chasing.

im 100% staying NA. bloody honda, they made these cars too good... too hard to improve.

just dont know if BC cams are worth it or would it be better to go toda. jsut looking for input at this stage. cheers.

[VeYzZii]

Hey mate, there where some threads on BC cams from the states.
The only question is if you think the $$$ is worth the gain.. Dont forget you will need Ti springs for the cams also..

[philipminge]

24204


these are stage 2 cams.

so stage 2 cams with a spring and retainers kit. and a tune.

if i got gains like that i would be happy!

are BC cams good though? and will the be suitable for track use? cant see much going wrong but just want to make sure im buying something that are quality....

[VeYzZii]

BC are quality. There where a set of nearly new ones on ebay about 3 months ago, they went for around 300. Those gains are probably with a full ECU. All up your porbably talking atleast 3000 worth of parts and labour. 100 bucks per horsepower.

[philipminge]

the labour will be done by me and my mechanic. but yeah its still pretty expensive. well its either that or Hytech and they are even more!
but the gain differences on the BC may only be single digits....

why was the guy selling his second hand ones..... do you know?

[AusS2000]

BC cams for sale:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/941204-nsw-s2000-ap1-oem-aftermarket-parts-for-sale/

[DreadAngel]

dreadangel - what experience have you had with cams? have u every used any aftermarket cams? worth the trouble?

Hey philip,

I've played with cams [Not F20C specific though strangely enough but quite a few other JDM engines =P] so I know the general philosophy behind them. I've used JUN Auto, TODA and Tomei along with a custom grind set in my previous car [Redline 10,000RPM and Cut-Off 11,000RPM, higher than your F20C LOL].

F20C is very hard to squeeze power out of [This is in reference to seeing demo cars from Amuse, J's, Spoon, Toda] in NA form. Remember that dyno sheets from manufacturers, overseas or local S2000s will all be very different so think of them in context and indications. In general USA dyno's are usually happier than Australian ones lol.

Have you checked out comments made about the Stage 2 cams from BC? Personally they look ok on the dyno, minor gain but that's what happens when we play with a highly developed small NA engine [<2.5L].

Key points for camshaft selection:
Loss of Low-Mid Range - This only happens when you go too aggressive | Increase displacement to offset, Tune can also help to a degree
Increase idle/unstable idle - As above but also can be caused by overlapping cams | Increase displacement to smooth the idle out some, Tune can also help to a degree
Increase Redline - In order to take advantage of the bigger duration and lift offered by cams, depending how aggressive you go, you may have to raise the redline by 500rpm - 3000rpm+ to reap maximum benefits. Disadvantage of this is expenses and possibily durability [upgrading/machine work head + bottom end to withstand the exponential stress by increased rotational speed & force which is multiplied by the ^nth]. Now this can be eliminated by reducing the redline but what's the point of going so big if you were to do that, may as well go for smaller cams lol

The rest is up to you to decide whether or not its worth the $$$ to invest in. If possible ride shotgun or test drive a mates car with your setup, failing that check out forums, YT, etc for feedback by owners that have done the mods. Some of the more articulate ones will provide more accurate reviews and numbers than others.

[INT DIST/TODA]

on an s2000, not worth the trouble, save your money, and go Forced induction if you want gains.. Every component of the s2000 was designed to work at its best from factory. only FI will give you noticeable gains.

There are plenty of good bolt on options for an F20C that make very decent gains NA, hard to compare a mild spend on improved NA performance opposed to FI though and no, the F20C was not a great engine out of the factory, so many compromises were made based on budget, EPA and noise that the window to tune them even with a stock bottom end is there. What you do find though, is not too many of the aftermarket components actually out perform the OEM ones in the combos people try to use them and most internet mechanics do better on B and K series engine than the F for that reason. Most people that play with a K always go backwards also as they slap a combo of any cheap aftermarket part thinking that it must make more power otherwise why would they make it.

If the OP would like to contact me some advice based on budget and goals, happy to help.

[AusS2000]

There are plenty of good bolt on options for an F20C that make very decent gains NA

And let me guess, you sell them?

[Benson]

150+kw from an stock long block with bolt-on mods and ECU(tuned) is pretty decent! Comparing the F20C with a K20A engine with bolt-ons which has VTC, the F20C engine are still ahead.

Now go adding some boost to it, the F20C can make some very decent power with 1bar of boost. I would say a little over 300kw with E85

The standard S2000 headers and exhaust system is very capable of close to 300kw's!

[INT DIST/TODA]

AusS2000, Do Toda make proven parts that out do the OEM items which were quoted in this thread as being as good as it gets out of the factory, yes they do, was that your question?

The OP didnt bring up boost, so I didnt feel the need to offer advice other than they respond very well to boost.

Good post Benny re F and K figures on bolt on's, it shows the refinement of the F20C without VTC, but thats not to say it cant be improved upon which is most of the advice on this thread, its just incorrect.

[AusS2000]

Umm, no I think my question was is the person spruiking the products the one who profits from them.

No where did I say Toda don't make quality parts, but it's good to be able to distinguish unbiased opinions and sales speak.

[INT DIST/TODA]

So if I sell a quality part that can offer the person the results they need, whats the problem or a need for the post you wrote to begin with?

Would you like me to advise them and suggest they buy the parts elsewhere and pay more?

What is your contribution to this thread apart from these comments, if the OP would like my advice and then buy parts, great, if he takes my advice and buys elsewhere, thats his choice, im offering help, unlike you, trying to look useful.

I also dont need to be biased, I know the products work.

[AusS2000]

Look, I know you're here to make a buck so let's see what the deal is. Toda cams: how much $$? how much kw?

Any supporting mods required? Fitment costs?

[ALPS]

lol pls define decent.. do you mean 5-7 hp gains? you could spend shit loads of money, and get 'quality NA parts' for a 10 - 20rwkw gain or so combined. but by the time you go through all the headaches and hassles getting the cams to work well and everyother bit n blah blah blah.. you can slap on a 'quality' FI kit which will easily double your cars power. and probably be even less hassle and same amount of money, if not less. if turbo/supercharger sizing chosen right, you'll have a very good overall response.. and you're contradicting yourself saying that it's not a good engine from factory and then saying aftermarket bits dont out perform OEM ones. They make these parts because they know there's mechanic/racers out there who race in NA classes where they go to the extent of adjusting their response/rev range depending on their track requirements where the extra 4-5hp differences will help.. Other than that i see it as a complete waste of money, unless of course like i said, youre loaded and you just want baller status

[INT DIST/TODA]

ALPS, the OP isnt asking for FI options, so whilst its all good and well to say spend your money on going FI opposed to NA, that isnt what has been asked, so its not a relevant conversation for this thread, but a valid one.

Wayne, from memory you were in IT or Web Design, so in your profession, do you go handing out advice or knowledge and your time for no reward, I dont see why you seem to think this industry is different to any other, why do you?

But for the benfit of the OP, it goes like this.

A stock S2k is about 145kw at the wheels, with intake mods, Toda cams, header and tune, I have seen low 160's ( Answering the original question on this thread and if the OP would like any advice for his build )

F20C's also benifit greatly from slight head work and valve seat and pocket work that has evolved a massive amount since the F20C was produced thanks to better cnc machines, add this and you can look at another 3-6kw on the above figure.

Going off topic but talking about NA performance figures for a F20C.

Go 2.2 and you can get 180-200kw, go 2.4 you can get to 200kw's +

We are working on a 2.2 based version with some ASM mods later in the year for a possible NA S2K entrant in next years WTA, as we have just finished fitting our almost complete carbon bodykit to Elias WTA S2000 and our turbo s2000 is next in line for the full kit we'll offer, with this NA build though, we will be hoping to push a 2.2 towards 200 +, this is without VTC of course, but VTC has been done on a F20C and the results are great as you can imagine.

To sum it up, a stock F20C is a great engine but one that can be improved upon, which wasnt the common advice throughout this thread, which is what I was looking to correct.

[fatboyz39]

How many tuning shops out there have successfully built and tuned a 2.4L to 200kw +? 2.2L stroker kit will set you back 6-8k, a decent 2.4L kit will be close to that value. Now going onto the head, CNC port, bigger valves, springs, cams and etc... there goes a good $3500. After that you'll have to address intake/header/exhaust OEM components are not suitable/up to the task there goes big bucks again.

To the OP - The cost of installing cams and tuning it you won't benefit much. Keep it simple, bigger throttle body + Intake + 70mm exhaust (stock headers are more then capable). Some sort of aftermarket ECU (Hondata/haltech/aem) and a tuner that knows F20c. This was shown on MADS2K (Elliott) with is internally stock f20c he manage some amazing laptimes at Wakefield Park and Eastern Creek GP.

If you want more power go for supercharger kit (S0S kit are very nice) for linear power, this will help prevent gearbox or diff failures. If you want a rush of power go turbo, be warn diff may break.

If you want to keep it n/a, be prepare to spend big bucks.

[ALPS]

and i'm just saying it's not worth spending money on trying to increase power any other way.. if you want to keep it NA, you're better off spending your money on improving handling components.. braces/wheels/tyres/brakes/suspension etc.. and if i were you, i'd change my diff ratio. that'll give you the most noticeable acceleration keeping it NA, obviously losing top speed..

[AusS2000]

Wayne, from memory you were in IT or Web Design, so in your profession, do you go handing out advice or knowledge and your time for no reward, I dont see why you seem to think this industry is different to any other, why do you?

No argument here. But when my clients ask me what I will get and how much will it cost I tell them quantifiable figures.


A stock S2k is about 145kw at the wheels, with intake mods, Toda cams, header and tune, I have seen low 160's ( Answering the original question on this thread and if the OP would like any advice for his build )

Ok, so you're saying 15Kw? But that's only half the question. How much does that cost?

[INT DIST/TODA]

ALPS, agree with you, its just not what the gent asked to start with, but final drive is always a good bang for buck mod, FWD or RWD.

Jimmy, cam change on a S2000 isnt that bad if you have the right tooling and I tend to disagree on the benefit. http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/cam/f20c-changer.html

I agree, not many shops have built high end NA engines, not to say it cant be done and we do have the insight from the ASM Toda powered car, I first saw that engine in Japan in 2007, it evolved every year, every build, its how they roll, if we can get 170-180kw from 2ltr B series engines, K's and F's are a lot easier, all be it you have greater drivetrain losses to contend with RWD, but yes, NA performance is costly, no doubt and it was mearly for everyone to know what can be done if they are going the NA route.

Elloitt's car was nothing special on power as you say, but his suspension supplied by us and the weight he ripped out of it, was the key to that car, show cased well what a s2k can do.

[philipminge]

ok there is some serious heat comin from this thread. lol dont wanna make pple fight....

thanks for your imput Dreadangel - and everyone else.... awesome to read all this...

ok im going to be 100% honest here. int dist/toda you are right... i am not looking for FI. I want to stay NA. i have a lot of friends who believe in turbos and V8's.... and with the car in 100% stock form i can stay right beside a BA XR8 Ute (because they are shit).
the car will be tracked and as we all know turbo cars do struggle in the heat.... and 70% of the people i know who own turbo cars always have issues....i have many cousins and mates telling me im wasting my time and they will smash any s2000... bla bla bla

i have been a honda freak since i was 15 and always believed in NA. im staying NA 100%

now i have this AP2 that i spend a shit load on... im not going to do anything half way.

the last thing i have to do to it is seats, engine and gauges.... everything else is done.... i think

everyone is saying do handling stuff etc.... its all done...

brakes as long as you run braided lines and i ran ferodo ds2500 on my last s2000... nevr had any brake fade

as mentioned earlier im running HKS headers, BERK cat but a TP on the track and a J's 70rs... also have a password JDM intake...

My question is i guess do i go cam and tune... or just bigger throttle body and tune... or just a tune...

my last s2000 i pulled 15rwkw just from Exhaust, cat, headers and intake..... no tune... im confident im going to get some good power... just dont know if its worth the extra $$$ for cams... for 5kw im not going to bother... ill still shit on their lap times... lol
i want to show my stupid mates what you can do with a NA 2L. and show myself of course!!!!!!!

im so keen to get this shit right i bought a car hoist and installed that and have a mechanic come to mine to do all the work with me and infront of me... no half arse shit and no1 touches this thing without me there.... lol (bad experience with some mechanics....)

i can real off a list of what the car has.... but i wont... all ill say is it has cost me over 19k in parts...

and i have effin finshed.... still dont have rims and tires and seats and a computer and gauges.....

so from all this info you guys have given me.... im still not sure... lol

but if we are gonna talk its NA only talk... lol I'd love a s/c but no... against my religion... for my personal car no FI

[vyets]

why not just get cams AND the TB then get a tune? tune last bolt ons first

[philipminge]

i could... i just want to make sure cams work eff anything and will still be reliable... and just wanted to know from people with similar setup or know someone with this setup... are the power gains worth it.... 5kw with the cam its really not worth it... but if im looking at like 10+ then yes... lol

[fatboyz39]

If "forced induction" is against your religion then power can be made n/a. Question is - building a high powered n/a with great parts will tend to last, once you start cutting parts out yes it'll make power but the question will under ly how long will it last.

INT - How long have those B series 170-180kw last? what bore what stroke? Do you have back to back graphs of a f20c stock vs toda cams?

Not going into debate about Elliotts S2000, he bought an expensive shock but didn't know how to ultilise the maximum capabilities of them so what is the real point of having such high end product? He's mate yellow s2000 when they both were competing at the super sprints they were within .5 sec of each other. He was on spoon suspension, does the extra 5000 or so gave him that .5 sec edge? Highly doubt it.

So going back to the point, cams wont benefit much. If you want power 2.2L OEM short block and retain you head but this will limit your rpm. Keep the OEM 2L engine, simple bolt-ons and tune will net some nice gains.

[fatboyz39]

philipminge (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?33664-philipminge)- HKS headers, from memory a back to back against OEM headers it loss power. OEM headers are very well design.

[philipminge]

that is the strong opinion i was after... i might give that a go for now and sus out how i go..... what about bigger throttle body???? lol

[fatboyz39]

Gain are to be made with bigger t/b you'll need to remove the intake manifold and bore it out same size as throttle size. So will cost vs gain beneficial, IMO no. Upgrade the FD if you havnt already and get it tuned. Do you have a aftermarket/tunable ECU yet?

[philipminge]

FD being Final drive? no i havent got a computer yet as i am still deciding. i want the dash to run the same if possible. i heard with the AEM series 2 EMS it doesnt.... i dont want any BS engine lights up etc etc... but i was thinking about the AEM...

do you have any ideas on this?

[Benson]

If you have an AP2, than Hondata Flashpro!!

All OEM instrument will work as per normal

[ALPS]

you'll also need a yellow box to fix up the difference in speedo reading, if you change the fd

http://www.ricks2k.com/products/yellowbox.php

[fatboyz39]

Im not 100% certain there could be a feature in the Hondata Flashpro that can rectify speed inaccuracy. Even so, flashpro is the way to go for AP2 S2K.

[philipminge]

so a hondata flash pro is the best option..... and if in the future i decide to do cams and maybe a FD, will this computer still give me enough tuning ability and flexability.

also where do you buy these suckers from?

its an AP2 but its still cable throttle.... just so you know. not TBW.... does that make a difference.

[ludecrs]

Too many experts not enough proof.

[philipminge]

Whats that meant to mean?

[DreadAngel]

He's just saying too much talk, not enough erm dyno sheets and stuff I think which are only indicative anyway due to too many uncontrollable variables...

[INT DIST/TODA]

Well put Dread, there are too many variables, engine condition, other parts used, cam timing, the tuner, the dyno, the list is endless, but most of the figures I speak of were cars done over the years out of various shops that I knew of, and with the Toda parts, builds that were done by Adrian and also many cars done via another person who does a lot with S2000's, on the lookout for space currently and when a suitable spot is found, we'll have a dyno and be able to provide this, for now, its from previous builds but I still stick to the fact that cams are worthwhile in an F20C.

Wayne, you are asking a question I cant have a definate answer for, as for pricing, depending on what parts were purchased, that would depict cost, as for what someone in Melbourne will charge him for the cam install and tune is out of my hands, but if he would like a part quote, he would be more than welcome to one, then go see his shop for the services and decide if its worth his hard earned, does that answer you sufficently?

Benny, re the B series, 87.2 x 85, 1.97 ltr and in a year of racing, you would pull it down yearly like any race engine seeing the limits you are pushing it to, but in saying that, Tims K20 pushing 180+, about to do its 4th season and he would drive that double what a normal IPRA or racer would per year, not bad seeing all he does is change the oil, plugs and adjust the rockers. As you know, even built everyday engines can meet an early end, most ones that I have seen go bad are driver error, 5th to 2nd downshift, oil or fuel starvation is another killer, building a race engine isnt just about the engine, but what supports it as well.

Jimmy, good point re HKS headers and most headers for S2k's, they tend to go backwards, this is why Toda make a point of a comparison when advertising their header.

Flashpro would also be my suggestion for the car, but the AEM is also a good option and evolving with more features being catered for.

Bigger t/b, on a F20 with whatever cams, anything over a 68mm is going to go backwards or hurt over the powerband, as Benny said, they should always be matched ported to work properly along with a radius placed on the back end so that you dont get a turbulent area just passed the throttle plate when on and off the gas.

[AusS2000]

Small point, but if you're going to refer to people by their real names, how about using yours?

[INT DIST/TODA]

It was a small point, but one you were hounding over so I answered it, ive also sent you a PM, lets keep this thread clean and set an example for others on here shall we?

[fatboyz39]

Not disagreeing here, TODA JAPAN make brillant products.

Give me a borrowed set of toda headers to test back to back on a S2000, lets see how good they are against factory item.

[AusS2000]

It was a small point, but one you were hounding over so I answered it, ive also sent you a PM, lets keep this thread clean and set an example for others on here shall we?

Are we reading the same interwebz? How was I 'hounding over' the use of real names?

[philipminge]

Now now ladies and gents lets keep this about love yeh...

Fatboyz39, i have just had my HKS headers ceramic coated in and out.... ill happily hand them over for a back to back test on a s2000. INT DIST/TODA would you put up a set of TODA's?

if the stock one wins ill keep stock, if mine win ill use HKS and if toda win, ill empty my wallet and sell myself and buy a set of toda headers? haha sounds like a plan to me.
lol

look the HKS look pretty standard. they run almost same size primary pipes... i think they might be a tiny bit bigger... internal diameter.... but they are way lighter and the final flo comes out bigger also.

if a test were to be done, and when my J's racing and cat are all on, i would happily pay for a dyno run.... and see what numbers we are looking at.....

or if fatboyz wanna do a test... back to back i'd ship my headers to you for a week... no stress.

would love to compare with toda.

either way i believe every mod will compliment the next.... but the stock headers do look good. i believe if a set of headers did anything it would only be 2-4whp untuned.

i had a set of PLM headers on my old AP1... sounded tuff as and from record it only gave me 4WHP back to back dyno test.

not really noticeable.

[fatboyz39]

Sounds like a plan :)

[philipminge]

INT DIST/TODA: you in.... if toda wins ill be buying a set before june!

i just want quality and power.

P.S. toda make amazing stuff. i purchased one of their light weight flywheels... and an exedy clutch... took it all to get balanced and the flywheel they said was absolutely perfect.

in my old s2 i ran a fidanza flywheel and took it to get balanced... needed some work! thats why now everything on my car either J's, toda, spoon....

INT DIST/TODA: whats your pricing like?

i got my TODA Light weight Chromoly Flywheel for $544 + $38.38 for shipping... PM me a price for the same thing if possible mate.

[INT DIST/TODA]

Now now ladies and gents lets keep this about love yeh...

Fatboyz39, i have just had my HKS headers ceramic coated in and out.... ill happily hand them over for a back to back test on a s2000. INT DIST/TODA would you put up a set of TODA's?

if the stock one wins ill keep stock, if mine win ill use HKS and if toda win, ill empty my wallet and sell myself and buy a set of toda headers? haha sounds like a plan to me.
lol

look the HKS look pretty standard. they run almost same size primary pipes... i think they might be a tiny bit bigger... internal diameter.... but they are way lighter and the final flo comes out bigger also.

if a test were to be done, and when my J's racing and cat are all on, i would happily pay for a dyno run.... and see what numbers we are looking at.....

or if fatboyz wanna do a test... back to back i'd ship my headers to you for a week... no stress.

would love to compare with toda.

either way i believe every mod will compliment the next.... but the stock headers do look good. i believe if a set of headers did anything it would only be 2-4whp untuned.

i had a set of PLM headers on my old AP1... sounded tuff as and from record it only gave me 4WHP back to back dyno test.

not really noticeable.

If the boys are happy to back to back a set, ill donate a new set for the test and if they win you buy them, no problem at all.

Also re that flywheel, they are good units, had you purchased from me though, $525.00 shipped, as I say to all, im doing the best prices on Toda, and if you find it cheaper, all you need to do is let me know, im here to look after people.

[Vvvtec]

If the boys are happy to back to back a set, ill donate a new set for the test and if they win you buy them, no problem at all.

Also re that flywheel, they are good units, had you purchased from me though, $525.00 shipped, as I say to all, im doing the best prices on Toda, and if you find it cheaper, all you need to do is let me know, im here to look after people.

:thumbsup:

[philipminge]

ok so how much is a set of toda headers... i prob should have looked at price before agreeing. lol im seriously gonna have to sell one of my motorbikes. lmao.

whats the best price you can do for toda headers....?? oh shit and for flywheel ... hmmm not bad...

If they win ill buy them.
then i have to pay to get them ceramic coated also.... FML anyone wanna rent a Boyfriend for the weekend.... any ladies? goin cheap! will take you to dinner and everything.... massage, whateva u want.... all for the price of Toda headers!

so whos doing the test??? and where am i shipping my headers????

if toda win by 1hp, ill neck myself.

i have someone who could do the test but happy for someone else to do it! actually no my cars not running.. its in pieces... unless someone is willing to put up an AP2 s2000 for us to use????

FATBOYZ39.... interested in back to back.... STOCK VS HKS (japan oldschool) VS TODA


i get my headers back next week so can prob ship next friday.

[AusS2000]

FML anyone wanna rent a Boyfriend for the weekend....


I know some guys might be interested? Full service? Toda headers ain't cheap you know.

[philipminge]

Lol I never said anything about guys.... Haha

Yeh thats why im shitting myself....
Leo what's you best price on these headers. Please look after the price... Coz will be more to come if you hook us up.

Na in all seriousness what prices are we looking at. I need to know as I have spent so much $$ I gotta watch my back.

Let us know Leo!

[philipminge]

Arnt they like bloody $1800 or something..??? From memory....

[AusS2000]

I hope you can control your gag reflex for that sort of money.

[philipminge]

Also r they The STD version or the torque kun version... And I can purchase for 1600.80 shipped...

I have other resources... Both versions r the same price
But yes that is a lot of money for headers.... Lol

My HKS werent much cheaper... as they are no longer available. i cant even find the part number anymore on any site.

we'll just see what happens i guess.

[fatboyz39]

What kind of suitable gains are worthwhile for a upgrade? 1800 for headers and say it does gain 5kw midrange and 2-3kw up top worthwhile upgrade?

[philipminge]

well when you put it that way..... no

lol

It would have been just an interesting test thats all...

everyone claims dyno proven.... and i'd love to see it first hand.

but 1600 is a lot for a set of headers.

You pay alot for these toda, J's, and hks stuff coz of brand... i bought PLM headers for my AP1 for 550 and they were awesome.

lets get my headers back and we'll see.

wouldnt mind knowing a price anyway.

[INT DIST/TODA]

Busy days gents, but ill come back to all my PM's and emails tonight re this.

Phil, exchange is good at the moment, either a standard or Tourqie header shipped to your door, $1450.00, might just save you gagging or ending up with a sore bottom as Aus has mates lined up by the sounds of it! lol

Im not going to argue for one second Toda products arnt expensive to copy items and other brands, but in saying that and what I consider when building anything and buying parts, is the cost v's performance but also its resale, you might buy a header for 1450, but you'll also sell it for 1k ish when done with it, its like any investment really, but I see a 450 spend for the result I want over a few years ive got the car as not that bad.

Aus2000 has also asked for pricing on a suitable cam packge for the F20C, so ill also post that along with ECU and header pricing, so minus fitting and tuning, people can see what they are up for.

Till tonight gents.

[philipminge]

thanks mate

[AusS2000]

What kind of suitable gains are worthwhile for a upgrade? 1800 for headers and say it does gain 5kw midrange and 2-3kw up top worthwhile upgrade?

Now we're getting back to my original question about the statement mentioning 'decent gains'.

[philipminge]

yeh for 4kw i guess its not worth it.... but as a test i wanted to see the difference..
would be interesting to see..... no?

[AusS2000]

Absolutely. And I applaud INT's offer of the headers on a sale or return basis and your offer to do back to back tests. That is quite an outlay in terms of time and money from both parties to obtain a real world picture of what you get and what you pay.

[ALPS]

or you can clear the grey cloud of gain or no gain and go FI lol

[AusS2000]

FI is not for everyone. Some call them NA purists, others call them girls. ;)

[ALPS]

i understand the want to stay NA and be purist.. but i don't understand the want to blow away money on mods that alter the way the engine runs NA and just add pointless extra stress on the motor for a couple more HP.. it runs fine as it is stock.. you're alot better off blowing away that money on different mods that actually make a big difference.. weight reduction - be it cf body parts, remove the soft top, lighter wheels, lighter seats etc.. / brakes - braided lines, better pads, better rotors, BBK if you like, better airflow to cool brakes. / suspension - good coils, adjustable arms / rigidity - sway bars, braces. / aero dynamics and the list goes on. these sort of mods would make heaps more noticeable changes... until you say F*&k it! now im going FI.. :p

[ludecrs]

He's just saying too much talk, not enough erm dyno sheets and stuff

Yep!


Not disagreeing here, TODA JAPAN make brillant products.

Give me a borrowed set of toda headers to test back to back on a S2000, lets see how good they are against factory item.

I did the comparision 5yrs ago.
I posted a thread, a graph from back 2 back and all.

Result was 5whp gain across the board with a set of Toda headers.

[ludecrs]

Proof

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt29/s2krazy/Oldskool%20S2K/Canon-s2kheader-002a.jpg

[philipminge]

Yeh thats not that much gain... I wonder what my hks would pull...
Alps I have done a shit load to my car... Even as far as pressing out every bush and replacing them with spoon bushes.
Bit excessive but whatever. Only things left are:
Gauges (I don't even know where to start or what brand)
Seats
Cage (am unsure yet)
Rims and tires
Computer..

And I'm about done. Tonight I removed my sump and tomorrow will be installing my new spoon baffled sump.

And I guess I just want to get the headers correct also.
Na is the way man... Lol I don't want to run engine to the max n have it peaking but I do want a bit more.
Weight would have been well reduced with new exhaust, seats, rims, etc. But I have asked chassis brace and like 5 strut braces... Prob just added it back.
Ah well. I'll keep susin the toda

[ludecrs]

Yeh thats not that much gain...

What were you honestly expecting??? And honestly, I'd be surprised if your HKS was any better than the OEM you had to start with. In most cases, you're worse off and its just a wank factor Made in China badge on your favourite soon-to-be-going-broke JDM company.

Unless you're going to run a very well tuned $4K+ ITB motor with a serious $1K+ fuel setup, your NA motor isn't going to crack 210whp (unless you have deeper pockets again and decide to go a stroker kit - but for the ~$7K that will cost you, you may as well go Force Fed as you're $12k deep and you can buy a turbo kit for $6k whilst putting the rest towards a stronger rear end...

If you want to make a "NA Performance gain" to your car... start by lightening the car -gut the roof.

[curtis265]

why does it have a spike at the beginning?

[honda_zivic]

ok there is some serious heat comin from this thread. lol dont wanna make pple fight....

thanks for your imput Dreadangel - and everyone else.... awesome to read all this...

ok im going to be 100% honest here. int dist/toda you are right... i am not looking for FI. I want to stay NA. i have a lot of friends who believe in turbos and V8's.... and with the car in 100% stock form i can stay right beside a BA XR8 Ute (because they are shit).
the car will be tracked and as we all know turbo cars do struggle in the heat.... and 70% of the people i know who own turbo cars always have issues....i have many cousins and mates telling me im wasting my time and they will smash any s2000... bla bla bla

i have been a honda freak since i was 15 and always believed in NA. im staying NA 100%

now i have this AP2 that i spend a shit load on... im not going to do anything half way.

the last thing i have to do to it is seats, engine and gauges.... everything else is done.... i think

everyone is saying do handling stuff etc.... its all done...

brakes as long as you run braided lines and i ran ferodo ds2500 on my last s2000... nevr had any brake fade

as mentioned earlier im running HKS headers, BERK cat but a TP on the track and a J's 70rs... also have a password JDM intake...

My question is i guess do i go cam and tune... or just bigger throttle body and tune... or just a tune...

my last s2000 i pulled 15rwkw just from Exhaust, cat, headers and intake..... no tune... im confident im going to get some good power... just dont know if its worth the extra $$$ for cams... for 5kw im not going to bother... ill still shit on their lap times... lol
i want to show my stupid mates what you can do with a NA 2L. and show myself of course!!!!!!!

im so keen to get this shit right i bought a car hoist and installed that and have a mechanic come to mine to do all the work with me and infront of me... no half arse shit and no1 touches this thing without me there.... lol (bad experience with some mechanics....)

i can real off a list of what the car has.... but i wont... all ill say is it has cost me over 19k in parts...

and i have effin finshed.... still dont have rims and tires and seats and a computer and gauges.....

so from all this info you guys have given me.... im still not sure... lol

but if we are gonna talk its NA only talk... lol I'd love a s/c but no... against my religion... for my personal car no FI

i slaughter every ss/xr8 with boltons everytime just have to launch it correctly.

get cams an tb and tune it. also if u havent already, get final drive, light weight flywheel, lsd, tyres, clutch.

if u got money and stil insist, get stroker kit, e85 fuel setup, port/polish, oversize valves. thats all i can think of atm.
lots of $$$.

[Benson]

210 hp n/a is achievable on OEM f20c.

[DreadAngel]

i understand the want to stay NA and be purist.. but i don't understand the want to blow away money on mods that alter the way the engine runs NA and just add pointless extra stress on the motor for a couple more HP.. it runs fine as it is stock.. you're alot better off blowing away that money on different mods that actually make a big difference.. weight reduction - be it cf body parts, remove the soft top, lighter wheels, lighter seats etc.. / brakes - braided lines, better pads, better rotors, BBK if you like, better airflow to cool brakes. / suspension - good coils, adjustable arms / rigidity - sway bars, braces. / aero dynamics and the list goes on. these sort of mods would make heaps more noticeable changes... until you say F*&k it! now im going FI.. :p

You really only add potentially damaging stress though if you start increasing the redline to take advantage of the more aggressive cams?

[ALPS]

And cams are what this thread is about?

Although it did move on to headers lol

[DreadAngel]

I got lost lol

Step 1 cams shouldn't add much stress, in many cases it can free up the engine from stress...

Inbe4morespam

[philipminge]

lol have new tyres, new TODA light weight flywheel, new HD clutch from exedy... LSD is perfect still... no way im changing untill its shagged.. lol

maybe cams... bc stage 2 or toda spec a2 cams.

not going to raise redline. if they cand do the job at 9000 well bad luck.

im still working it all out.

really the motor is all that i cant decide. bit by bit ill get there.

see how i go.

just want to get the thing on the road to test my suspension. lol.

once the car is on the road i might continue this thread... if people dont mine.

everyones input has been sik. and for the meople in melbourne... the first thing when this is on the road ill be doing a mountain cruize... maybe up kinglake, across to heilsville and up through the spur to marysville then up lake mountain...

are there any people interested???? lol dont want to change the thread... but want a show of interest.

thanks to everyone who has helped me with all this... awesome opinions... love it.

ONE MORE QUESTION. car has 80xxxkms on it... i just put my new sump etc etc but while gearbox is out do i change my Rear Main Seal??? anyone wanna throw in a thought.... ?

[philipminge]

sorry just read page 6... didnt know it was at page 7... lol

the point is not of the money guy... the point is that an NA car can still be quick, reliable, fun and a track machine.

i guess in a way - 5whp from the headers, say 3-4 from high flow cat say 5-6 from exhaust... looking at 15 ish whp.... thats what im after. not just bolting headers and that it.... i guess only time will tell.... give me another month or 2 and hopefully i can come back to people with results...

[honda_zivic]

even if it looks fine change it anyway. consider it as a insurance.
get genuine seal ,they arent that exspensive compare to aftermarket.

[philipminge]

yeh i just ordered one today. gonna do it. lol

[dc2screama]

even if it looks fine change it anyway. consider it as a insurance.
get genuine seal ,they arent that exspensive compare to aftermarket.

This guy knows^

[INT DIST/TODA]

Yep!

I did the comparision 5yrs ago.
I posted a thread, a graph from back 2 back and all.

Result was 5whp gain across the board with a set of Toda headers.

Busy as always, but this is about right, 5-8 whp dyno and condition dependant for a header swap. Was that a standard set or a set or Torquie Kun's Ludecrs?

For people that were interested and asked for it to be posted, a set of Toda A2 Camshafts, Cam gears, Valve Springs & either Toda header along with a Flashpro, is $4725.00 and includes GST and delivery within Australia, this fitted and tuned you are looking at a 15-20kw gain with a few inlet mods. For all clients that buy K or F series camshafts from me, I make available to them the Toda Valve spring removal tool, this allows the springs and cams to be removed without removing the head, saving a head service, gasket set and also a few hours of labour, which normally saves you at least $1000 odd in the swap, making it a more affordable upgrade also.

As it has been said, the bang for buck or benefit for cost, is debatable, but thats what makes us as car owners different, but when people say spend that money on FI, sure the gain will be more, but is that what the owner wants, possibly not, and it doesnt seem in this case with the OP.

[ludecrs]

Busy as always, but this is about right, 5-8 whp dyno and condition dependant for a header swap. Was that a standard set or a set or Torquie Kun's Ludecrs?

Forget now. We're going back 6+yrs here..


As it has been said, the bang for buck or benefit for cost, is debatable, but thats what makes us as car owners different, but when people say spend that money on FI, sure the gain will be more, but is that what the owner wants, possibly not, and it doesnt seem in this case with the OP.

Just trying to put an old head on young shoulders.. I wanted nothing but NA when I first got my S2000.... Well..... the rest is history.... lol.

[philipminge]

Haha well yeh... Naa deff want to stay NA.

I know turbo are good bang for ur buck but it's not what I'm after. I will get my car on the road and after a bit from do a Toda set up..