B gearbox/LSD questions

[mooshie]

Ok so I am finally about to do something with the gearbox pieces I picked up a long time ago with the intention of installing onto my B18C turbo.
The plan is to fit hydro '98 Type R S80 internals into a YS1 casing to create a cable actuated R box to fit in a '91 Integra.

I have checked the tooth counts on the gears to confirm that they are from the right box-
Main. Counter. Ratio.
1st. 13. 42. 3.230
2nd. 19. 40. 2.105
3rd. 24. 35. 1.458
4th. 29. 30. 1.034
5th. 33. 26. 0.787

All ok there but the diff and final drive is a bit confusing. As you can see from the pics the final will need to be replaced but the tooth count on it is 14/68 giving a ratio of 4.857 instead of the OEM 4.785. I have counted multiple times so figure this must be an aftermarket final drive but does anyone know what it is?

The LSD diff also seems to sit into the YS1 casing comfortably but I haven't trimmed the internal ribbing yet, is there any way to confirm visibly or by other means what this diff is from? I am thinking it might actually be a optional LSD from a cable box, will this still fit and work ok with the other hydro internals?

Lastly, looking for opinions on what final drive to go for. The car will be heading to Mallala and Collingrove Hillclimb at least but I also like to go on a leisurely weekend drive in some of the open road 100kmh zones east of the Adelaide Hills. I have a S1 gearbox from an LS so could I fit the 0.742 5th gear in or will it not work with the other parts? The car has plenty of torque but the 4.7 sure is tempting instead of a 4.4 considering I hardly get out of 2nd in my standard b16 teg with a JDM J1 box at Collingrove.

And yes I will be going to Neat Gearboxes :wave: but wanted to share on here for the benefit of others too.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/13/bt96.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/36/zwwg.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/689/vqm2.jpg

[chez00]

That does look like a factory LSD and if it is they are a very nice unit. I haven't worked out a way to distinguish between a few of the more common gear type LSDs, they all look pretty similar, and often people have no idea what they have in the first place. Sometimes they foul around the crown wheel bolts so you need to check the fit in both cases.

I honestly reckon the 4.9 is too short for Collingrove - traction from the steep start line will be difficult and you'll forever be changing between 2nd and 3rd with the extra power. I'd be chasing a hydro 4.4:1 personally. Mind you I know a fella with a turbo DC2 running 4.9 and is very quick around Mallala. There's always compromises - the setup requirements for collingrove are much different to mallala. Do you intend to get serious about a specific class of competition? If so, choose one or the other to build your setup around.

The cable .742 5th set doesn't work with the hydro main and countershafts. I have .714 hydro LS 5th ratio sets in stock if you want a more comfortable cruise, but not necessary unless you use the 4.9 or 4.785 FD.

[mooshie]

It's all just for fun at this stage not serious about competition, so 4.9 is really out of the question. The .714 sounds pretty good to go with the 4.7, any idea what revs that would be doing at 110kmh? For that matter I can't seem to find a clear answer on what revs the Type R is doing at that speed.. I'd be happy with anything under about 3900.

[mooshie]

So even if it is an LSD from a non Type R it will be fine? I figure it's the final drive that matters in relation to the rest of the gears anyway.

Forgive my gearbox noobiness but by crown wheel bolts do you mean the bolts in the pics above? And what would they foul on? I am aware I may need to trim down some of the internal ribbing in the case but it seemed to drop in and spin freely on the bearings (no seals etc in the casing) I just noticed that the bolts are installed on the opposite side of the diff from other pictures I have seen...

This style of bearing in the pic is normal for a Type R box too, as opposed to tapered roller bearings?

I have no reason to not believe what I was told when I purchased this stuff which was that it was all OEM aside from the final drive. Just looking for confirmation.

I probably wouldn't be able to get it down to you this week or next, so trying to figure out as much as possible now.

Thanks for the help.

[Adrian @ SAS]

My beer fueled recon is that the diff pictured is aftermarket clutch type for B16A (judging by inner diameter of ring gear)
OEM diffs have a removable speedo drive ring (bevel drive) where as diff pictured looks like cusco or spoon
Have Neat Gearboxes pull it down & see if ramps & pre load are adjustable

+ I also recon you'll be faster round the circuit if you use 1.107 4th & 0.875 5th with 4.4 final as above

My 5cents on ring gear...
Aftermarket ring gear miss-matched with OEM counter shaft
EG: MF 4.0 - 68/17
Would kinda explain the missing teeth too (& the tooth cut)

Re mix 'n match,
best go to neat as there are a variety of different shaft diameters & bearing sizes across the cable models
some you can do it, some you can't & selectors can also be an issue

Uuuurp!

[mooshie]

Thanks, even full of beer you can relate good info!

You also raised an interesting point with the speedo ring gear. On the DA the VSS drives a cable to the back of the cluster but this VSS won't go into the casing with the LSD in place, the splines are a lot bigger than the electric VSS for the hydro box(test fitted also and seemed to turn no worries)

What do I do for a speedo reading? I couldn't find anything on the net...

[chez00]

Great info Adrian, thanks. I forgot about the removable ring.

The enclosed diff bearings in the pic are later hydro bearings. You can use them in place of the tapered rollers, the shims just change around.

crown wheel bolts are the ones holding the large ring gear to the LSD.

I'm unsure on the speedo drive - later hydro were electric but seem to remember there were early hydro cable driven? Someone should be able to pitch in. It may need a cluster swap?

[dougie_504]

I've gone for the cable 5th from the LS (the 0.742) to mate to my 4.9FD in my EF8. Will hopefully be up and running soon if you want some feedback.

Personally I'd say go with the 4.4 if you're going to be doing some highway driving otherwise you'll probably be cruising at quite high RPM. You're running an F/I setup so it's fine to have a little length in the gears.

You might be faster around a track if you go 4.7 and run the shorter 5th but your day-to-day driving will be a total suckhole.

[Adrian @ SAS]

Re diff, final drive ring gear bolts are also not OEM left hand thread.
As for speedo drive, you're going to have to figure out what brand the diff is & buy their brass bevel gear to replace the OEM one held in the drive by a cotter pin (mechanical or electric)
Normally this comes with the diff...
Looks like this...
http://www.part-box.com/images/78016-102%20(Small).jpg

[Adrian @ SAS]

More 5 cents worth...
B18C final drive ring gear inner diameter is 116.8mm (10 bolts)
B16a final drive ring gear inner diameter is 109.0mm (10 bolts)
Also, my best guess is your LSD is either KAAZ or MFactory
http://pics.driftworks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/b/dbh2020a.jpg

[mooshie]

Awesome info here. Have to say that pic looks a lot like my diff- is that an Mfactory or KAAZ? even if I have to get a couple of those gears for the VSS I'm sure they shouldn't be too expensive. Considering all this stuff cost me less than about $500 (got a heap of other gear in the deal) I think I'm doing ok so far for the hassle.

Will take a couple of measurements soon. Oh and I tested the clearance I the housing again and this time pushed the casing back together roughly, then I spun the diff it was contacting something so that's a good sign it's a later hydro diff as well. I'll trim the ribs over the weekend and clean it up a bit.

Edit- just thought, in all likelihood the gear drive in the electric VSS that came with the setup is probably correct for this LSD... There was a cable one as well so I have a spare I can play with and see if I can get to work.

[Adrian @ SAS]

Diff pictured is KAAZ 1.5way. (only comes in 1.5way)
MFactory looks the same but is available in 1.0 / 1.5 / 2.0 way
You'll need Neat to confirm... (way too much typing to explain ramps)
The fouling is likely the ring gear retaining bolts fouling on the case below.
(You'll need to clearance this + shim it correctly)

Also, the diff pictured above is a clutch type. OEM torsen types have cast in dirt pig iron outer shell. (see below)
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-1408381693991_1868_345031

[lil_foy]

Does it have numbers scratched into it anywhere? I had an ATS diff and that was their identifaction code, looks exactly the same. I have a speedo drive somewhere here for it too that i dont need anymore ;)

[mooshie]

Cheers. I might hit you up for that speedo drive once I have checked everything this weekend.

[chez00]

sounds like you got a good deal for your bits regardless. We'll sort out what you need.

[mooshie]

I certainly did, also included an Ogura clutch too, to suit the different input shaft. I'm not overly familiar with clutches but seems to have about 40% meat on it at a guess undecided if I am going to use it at this stage. I had to drive to Melbourne to get it though! Gotta go country next week and boss is in town the week after so might not have much time until the week after, but I'll head down when I can.

[mooshie]

Just a few pics of what's doing-
The YS1 casing- basically the same as a hydro box but cable actuated clutch, only came out for a year and a bit so not that easy to come across. I'm going to strip the paint off and clean it up
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/594/z94m.jpg

The ribs that need the corners knocked off them to allow the diff to clear.
http://imageshack.com/a/img208/1329/xvzk.jpg

Rest of the internals. Going to refresh all bearings, seals and synchros
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/543/vwq8.jpg

[mooshie]

And the clutch-looks a bit burnt but would I be able to get it resurfaced? Also wondering if it would be worth using? The car only does 5000km per year at the absolute max but does get driven hard. Makes 170kwatw.
http://imageshack.com/a/img138/6938/9cfb.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/3383/s1ck.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img12/6931/l37a.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img833/1015/m3k9.jpg

[mooshie]

And lastly, my custom VSS. The shaft in the electric one I had did fit with the LSD but as you can tell from the pic the shaft was way too short to simply swap into the mechanical one. I cut up and modified the electric to take a cable and it works when test fitted to the DA5. Only question now is if the calibration will be correct?
http://imageshack.com/a/img28/7145/qi2m.jpg

[Adrian @ SAS]

Remove the cotter pin in the lower section of the electric sensor & remove the bevel gear/shaft.
The do the same to the mechanical sensor & fit the shaft from the electric one.
No hot-rodding required.


(edit)
Also, you're going to have to remove your pedal box & have it reinforced with that clutch.
(Probably a new DA9 cable too)

[chez00]

Don't worry about cleaning the cases - the hot chemical spray wash will get most of it and then we bead blast the case as part of the service too - it will come up squeaky clean.

Bring the clutch down and I'll see if I can remachine it.

[mooshie]

Sweet, and I was just about to start cleaning it up! Checked the ring gear inner diameter and it's 116.8mm so definitely a B18C diff.

I pulled apart the mechanical VSS, they are setup differently to the elec one. Shaft is way longer and uses an internal pin to retain the shaft instead of a cotter pin. The elec shaft sits about 10mm too short to even get to the space where the pump gear is.

http://imageshack.com/a/img849/3844/lqi2.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img36/7402/0zje.jpg

[Adrian @ SAS]

Well that sux balls... :P
(guess there are a few types of cable ones)
How secure is the cable re your 1st plan of sticking it in the top of the electric base?

[mooshie]

It's pretty solid. The retaining clip holds it just as firm as in the original.

I had a bit of copper pipe that had an inner diameter 1mm larger than the original and outer diameter 1mm smaller than the opened up electric bit. Used this glue called Q-Bond, it's holding really firm! So dodgy but this is what makes modifying fun.

Here is the YS1 casing with the ribs ground down. Test fit and closed up the case and everything rotates with no more contact

http://imageshack.com/a/img30/9836/6wsd.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img812/744/52iu.jpg

[mooshie]

Bringing this back for some advice on which fluid I should be using...

Finally got it all installed and with a Competition Clutch stage 4 and took for a test today. I know to expect some clunking etc from the diff but it's pretty severe, way more than I expected. I'm not just talking carpark speeds either, even a bit of clunking going around corners at 60kmh.

Driveshafts weren't changed and are pretty new and I have brand new 62a Hasport mounts. It only does it under load/acceleration so I'm pretty sure I can rule out anything other than the diff.

Currently running OEM MTF with a dash of the Ford friction modifier (40ml) which didn't seem to make any difference. Not sure how much to put in as it's really hard to get good answers from Google etc! The car is almost undriveable at low speeds so need some options here.

[Super-DA9]

I am also running a clutch LSD (cusco) in my B series transmission. I have also tried the oil combo you are using.

When I ran OEM oil with friction mod additive the diff clunked like crazy with a little bit of friction mod but with more friction mod the synchros slipped.

I have found the best combo that works for reducing clunking without compromising the synchros performance is Penrite Pro Gear 75w-85 (GL4) and a small tube of Nulon G70. Pour the G70 into the 2.5L bottle of Pro Gear and shake it up to premix, then drop it straight in.

Just a note tho, diff additives shouldn't be required if the preload on the diff is set low. If it's clunking too much the preload is probably high. Adding friction modifier creates more slip on the plates but also has the same effect on your synchros.

Hope this helped. :thumbsup:

[chez00]

I'm a bit hazy now, did we ever figure out what the diff was? Depending on clutch settings they can be pretty noisy but not to the extent you're describing.I would have cleaned it thoroughly in a quick dry solvent for final clean, which can "dry" the plates out a bit and it can take a while for the oil and friction modifier to get into the clutch packs. Oil selection can be tricky with a clutch LSD in a synchro box. I like the ULX-110 75w90 gear oil for this. It seems to shut most clutch LSDs up (to an extent). I've heard good things about the Penrite pro gear too, but have not personally used it. Let me know if I can help/test drive etc.

[mooshie]

Cheers Sam, hopefully I can figure out an oil combo that works before I need to bring it down. I think we decided it was an MFactory LSD in the end.
What you are saying about the plates 'drying' makes sense, they feel like they are sticking and then suddenly give, how long would you expect them to lube up? I've only done about 10km in a few different trips so far

I reckon I'll try another 40ml of the modifier and then the whole bottle if that doesn't work, then move on to a different oil as suggested.

[ceekay101]

Sorry to butt in. I did a bunch of googling and mineral oil is recommended for clutch type lsds. Ive recently tried penrite 80w90 gear oil with one small tube of nulon g70. Cold is pretty meh. But once warm/hot omg. Its like butter and no chatter/horrible clunks/weird looks from people. Its hard to find a balance between cold shifting and clutch noise. But I feel like this option is doable. 80w90 penrite gear oil is like $20/25 and the additive is under $15? So all up 40 bucks... Oem will still cost more. But if I could run oem I would, that stuff is great.

[chez00]

OEM is mineral based though, so I think Mark is on the right track. The ULX is full mineral based with their own friction modifier package that works well. I sell it for $20/L or $90 for 5L so same ballpark price.

Mark you need to run it more than that to allow the oil to get in. The design of these diffs restricts (deliberately) the amount of oil going into the clutch packs, and it can take a lot longer to get back to normal - I would have thought 100km of cornering or so. Go easy on the friction modifier as the synchros will be effected and will prematurely fail if you load them up too much with the slippery stuff. My thoughts are it needs more driving rather than tinkering with the oil blends at this stage.

[mooshie]

Cheers for the advice. It's a worry driving it, feels like something is going to break! I am certain it's the diff though and nothing else so I guess if it does break it was buggered anyway... Lol.

As I said it does feel like its loading up then giving way so will keep going as you suggest

[mooshie]

Ok so an update.. Thankfully a few supermarkets don't open till 11am on a Sunday in SA so I went down to the local Coles carpark to do some figure 8s. Got a few weird looks from people driving in and an old couple sat and watched me for about 10mins, probably thought I was mad.

She was clunking severely just like before initially but I just kept going for about 10 mins and then went for a drive on some slightly winding roads for about 15 mins. Came back to the carpark and as I turned in it was still clunking but when I started doing the 8s it rapidly lessened and after 5mins I couldn't get it to clunk at all. Did all this again and exactly the same thing happened. Then I went for a drive to mt barker and lots of tight low speed turns. It's a lot better and the clunks are a lot less, still doing it mainly on roundabouts and similar turns but 90degree intersections it doesn't really do it at all.

I reckon I've done about 60kms today in about 2 hrs total including stopped time. I'm thinking everything is ok and I just need to keep driving and bedding it in. The clutch still has about 500km to bed in too before I really get to test things out.

Still intending to play around with oils in the future but it seems ok for now.



In other news, my dodgy VSS setup works perfectly. Calibrated it using a gps speedo on the iPhone in the work car then in the teg and it's spot on surprisingly,

[ceekay101]

Hey mooshie just following up how the oem plus ford friction modifier is going?

The penrite 80w90 when cold is so bad it even crunches. Even actually coming out of gear is difficult. So I decided to try penrite 75w80. Initially ok cold and hot. But after a day of driving It started clunking again I guess the 80w90 finally came off the clutch packs, that stuff is so thick it doesnt even drain out of the box quickly. Chez you mentioned ulx110 75w90 which I can't seem to find, only the 80w90 comes up on their site, can you confirm?

There are very few if any 75w90 mineral oils. May have to settle for a semi syn or go oem mtf with ford modifier as mooshie did. Or even try 75w85 penrite pro gear oil however that is fully synthetic from memory.

[Super-DA9]

Hey mooshie just following up how the oem plus ford friction modifier is going?

The penrite 80w90 when cold is so bad it even crunches. Even actually coming out of gear is difficult. So I decided to try penrite 75w80. Initially ok cold and hot. But after a day of driving It started clunking again I guess the 80w90 finally came off the clutch packs, that stuff is so thick it doesnt even drain out of the box quickly. Chez you mentioned ulx110 75w90 which I can't seem to find, only the 80w90 comes up on their site, can you confirm?

There are very few if any 75w90 mineral oils. May have to settle for a semi syn or go oem mtf with ford modifier as mooshie did. Or even try 75w85 penrite pro gear oil however that is fully synthetic from memory.

As I mentioned I am using this with 125ml of G70 for street and track with my ITR box and Cusco Clutch Diff, it's fine. Works great and doesn't mess with your synchros.

[mooshie]

Haven't had a chance to drive the car much, prob only put about another 80k on it last weekend- was still clunking a lot when cold but as the box warmed up it got much better. I'm finding that on really tight turns such as carparks it's fine but when I go around some big right angle intersections and roundabouts where it's sort of 3/4 lock I get clunking. Bit weird.

Fkn car has picked up a miss at very light throttle now from somewhere- fine at anything more than just touching the pedal in any gear and any revs but stutters like crazy just cruising. Good excuse to finally swap in my Edelbrock intake mani and get a retune I think. Until then I won't be playing much, but I will try some more of the modifier, so far I've only put about 40ml in there. I would think this G70 is similar stuff and if others are using the full 125ml tube I think I still have some leeway.

[ceekay101]

As I mentioned I am using this with 125ml of G70 for street and track with my ITR box and Cusco Clutch Diff, it's fine. Works great and doesn't mess with your synchros.

Yeh I may go up a smidge (to 75w80). The 75w80 is pretty good for shifting. The clunking isnt to bad. Much worse when i first tried mtf but i may have also bed in the lsd. My only problem with the pro gear is that its fully synthetic, for a clutch type a mineral oil is best. But I may have to.


Haven't had a chance to drive the car much, prob only put about another 80k on it last weekend- was still clunking a lot when cold but as the box warmed up it got much better. I'm finding that on really tight turns such as carparks it's fine but when I go around some big right angle intersections and roundabouts where it's sort of 3/4 lock I get clunking. Bit weird.

Fkn car has picked up a miss at very light throttle now from somewhere- fine at anything more than just touching the pedal in any gear and any revs but stutters like crazy just cruising. Good excuse to finally swap in my Edelbrock intake mani and get a retune I think. Until then I won't be playing much, but I will try some more of the modifier, so far I've only put about 40ml in there. I would think this G70 is similar stuff and if others are using the full 125ml tube I think I still have some leeway.

Light throttle id check plugs and leads. I dont know if g70 and gm modifier are the same? I use the g70 for shifting unsure if it helps/affects the clutch lsd. Either way keep us up to date with your lsd progress.

[chez00]

Yeah sorry it is an 80w90. I don't see why it wouldn't work though.

[Super-DA9]

I would think this G70 is similar stuff and if others are using the full 125ml tube I think I still have some leeway.

G70 is not the same as ford/Penrite friction modifier. G70 is a type of friction mod designed to help make shifts better in old gearboxes but it also reduces the clunking in clutch diffs. It is 100% safe to use as it's a gearbox AND diff additive. It does not compomise the function of your synchros like ford/Penrite friction modifier does.


My only problem with the pro gear is that its fully synthetic, for a clutch type a mineral oil is best. But I may have to

I don't see why using synthetic oil with a clutch diff is bad, a lot of oils specifically designed for clutch diffs are synthetic. I'm not an expert on the subject but I have been using this combo on the street and track for the last year and it's fine.

[ceekay101]

Yeah sorry it is an 80w90. I don't see why it wouldn't work though.

While running the 80w90 on cold it was so stiff getting out of gear was difficult and shifting would crunch intermittently, mind you it has brand new carbon lined synchros.


G70 is not the same as ford/Penrite friction modifier. G70 is a type of friction mod designed to help make shifts better in old gearboxes but it also reduces the clunking in clutch diffs. It is 100% safe to use as it's a gearbox AND diff additive. It does not compomise the function of your synchros like ford/Penrite friction modifier does.



I don't see why using synthetic oil with a clutch diff is bad, a lot of oils specifically designed for clutch diffs are synthetic. I'm not an expert on the subject but I have been using this combo on the street and track for the last year and it's fine.

Apparently the synthetic oils leave a film. All the actual branded clutch lsd oils kaaz etc use a mineral oil.

But honestly after driving it today it's pretty good may just go penrite 75w85 with nulon additive and that will be the best compromise and ill just monitor it.

[Super-DA9]

What's wrong with it leaving a film of oil? Once you start driving it'll get covered in oil anyway right?

[ceekay101]

What's wrong with it leaving a film of oil? Once you start driving it'll get covered in oil anyway right?

Yeh but its different. Obviously oil will get on it... I'm explaining it inadequately but I found it online, it was a reply from kaaz regarding using fully synthetic redline products:



First, we do not recommend usage of Synthetic type oil but the usage will not harm the unit either. The only reason we don't recommend synthetic is because it creates a film on clutch friction surfaces and our plates don't lock and slip smoothly. Use of synthetic oil normally create more chattering noise because the lock to slip and back to lock operation becomes more abrupt using synthetic. The oil may quite down the unit initially but once the oil viscocity goes down, the noise will noticeably get worse.

Im not trying to rustle feathers with this, just want to find the best fluid for our application. So I guess viscosity will change in time once the oil breaks down. So I guess aslong as you change it regularly it should be fine?

[mooshie]

Thought id post an update on experience with the oils. I changed out the OEM MTF with Ford friction modifier for the Penrite Pro Gear/Nulon G70 combo mentioned earlier in the thread about 5 months ago. Still clunks and grinds a bit when cold but when it's warm it's a sensational shifting feel and no grinding or clunking at all. Love it now!

[Super-DA9]

Thought id post an update on experience with the oils. I changed out the OEM MTF with Ford friction modifier for the Penrite Pro Gear/Nulon G70 combo mentioned earlier in the thread about 5 months ago. Still clunks and grinds a bit when cold but when it's warm it's a sensational shifting feel and no grinding or clunking at all. Love it now!

Good to hear. With some LSDs the clunking when cold is kinda unavoidable, but once it gets some oil running through it goes away.