EK Sway Bar/Chassis Brace Setup - Front Chassis Brace?

[Honda]

Currently have:
- Ek4 rear sway bar
- EK1 front sway bar

and I'm thinking of installing a ek4 front chassis brace.

For a FWD, the rear sway bar made a difference, and I'm thinking it might stiffen the car too much if I put a chassis brace at the front? or is it better to do this?

and then, possibly upgrade the front sway bar to ek4? (maybe)

[bennjamin]

Leave front swaybar.

Put your money into a ASR rear brace and CTR ek9 rear swaybar.

Best mod you can do

[Honda]

Leave front swaybar.

Put your money into a ASR rear brace and CTR ek9 rear swaybar.

Best mod you can do

I have access to a front chassis brace. Will it make a positive effect without an ek9 rear setup?

[EG5]

Change your suspension bushings too ( front lca bushings , front compliance bushings , rear trailing arm bushings , rear lca bushings etc )
EK is over 10 years old , fresh bushings will stiffen up the car and improve handling of your car.

[mocchi]

x2 change all bushings first. feel dat tight pu sea

[bennjamin]

I have access to a front chassis brace. Will it make a positive effect without an ek9 rear setup?


I dont think it will be a positive effect. It will stiffen up the link of suspension at the front of the car and IMO you wont like the new feel. Better to firm up the rear.
As said above new bushes would be nice, but for the money spent by far the best mod is a upgraded rear swaybar.

[Honda]

Makes me wonder why ek4 comes with a front chassis brace. Must be there for a reason

[bennjamin]

Makes me wonder why ek4 comes with a front chassis brace. Must be there for a reason

does something. But not enough to notice...A actual strut bar does more. But still...for the money spent - rear swaybar upgrade is where its at :)

[Astrodice]

Hey guys

Been doing some research into this topic of installing an RSB onto a stock EK1 sedan and sounds like Honda has the same setup as Alvis on here (thanks for all the part numbers Alvis)
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?147633-Rear-sway-bar-on-EK1-spin-out-going-to-far/page5

of Ek4 rear sway bar
- EK1 front sway bar

On your good advice bennjamin your saying leave the EK1 front at 22mm and upgrade the rear with ASR rear brace and CTR ek9 rear swaybar of 22mm.

Excusing my ignorance but would it make a huge difference to upgrade the stock EK 22mm FSB to the EK4/EK9 of 26mm, thus matching the EK9 setup of 26mm FSB and 22 RSB (add the ASR rear brace as well)
as suggested here http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?82065-ek-best-swaybar-setup/page2

A further question is in your opinion do you need an ASR brace even if you just add a Ek4 rear sway bar as is Honda's and Alvis's setup?

If and if is the big question you upgraded your FSB to 26mm from stock of 22mm on a EK1 would you only need the following parts:

SPRING, FR. STABILIZER (26MM) 51300-S04-N01 QTY 1
BUSH, STABILIZER HOLDER (26MM) 51306-S04-N01 QTY 2
HOLDER, R. FR. STABILIZER 51308-SR3-000 QTY 2

By a way of reference the part numbers for the mod of a EM1 / EK4 13mm RSB to an EK1 is

52300-S52-A01 x 1
52308-s04-000 x 2
52315-s52-A00 x 2
52317-s04-000 x 2
52320-s04-003 x 1
52321-s04-003 x 1
90002-s10-000 x 2
90212-SA5-003 x 2
93403-08020-08 x 4
95701-08018-08 x 4

:cool:

[eekayfo]

when setting up suspension for track, you would use wheel rates to calculate the spring/damper/swaybar stiffness ect so think about stiffer springs, softer swaybars softer springs, stiffer bars. both acchieves the same "wheel rates" im running itr springs and bars in my ek4. i like the combination for a spirited daily but i have only driven a limited amount of suspension setups. i see most threads and discussions about swaybars ignore springs and dampers. stiffer rear to front balance=more oversteer stiffer front to rear balance = more understeer. eliminating the variables i think the main noticeable difference when upgrading to a 22mm rsb is more oversteer, and to a much lesser extent body roll (depending on spring setup.)

but what if you put on a 13mm bar and removed your front bar??? if you have some stupidly hard lowering springs, i dont think the increased body roll would be hugely noticeable. and you would gain the benefit of the wheels being more independent of each other over uneven road. the supensions job is to keep the wheels on the ground and increase traction and handleing as much as possible. linking the L/R wheels together has a negative impact on this. take a ek4 setup 26f 13r, instead of going thicker rear, why not put a 22 or even a 18 front on??? another plus is no need to shell out as much for a asr and you could get away with a beaks or similar as a brace.

you need to look at the whole picture and know what you want to achieve, just like an engine you dont want to put a type r manifold thats tuned for 9k rpm on a stockblock b18b that can only rev to 7k..... but if its running 12:1 with a big cam and revs up there, then sure, it is deffantly a worthwhile addition.

[Astrodice]

Thanks for the info eekayfo. My EK currently has the King spring lows on it and the rest is stock. It will be just a daily drive wont be tracked.
I am just looking to do a simple rsb upgrade, so going on a some peoples experience putting a 13mm bar on the rear is simple upgrade and you get the handling advantages of a rear bar without having to upgrade front and rear to 26mm in front and then an ctr rear 22 and brace etc.

Alvis and Honda have current setups of 22 front (stock) and 13mm rear

bennjamin what do you think? ;-)

[bennjamin]

Hey Astro - i still think its best to put the cash spent on that 13mm into a 22mm :) Just leave the front standard.
It really is very noticeable and the best bang for buck mod for any civic owner

[Astrodice]

Hey bennjamin hows it going?

In your experience and given eekayfo's post, (excuse my ignorance) what would the effect be with 22mm on both front and rear sway bar. Would it increase the oversteer significantly? The EK is a daily driver and King Spring lows on it at the moment.

I do believe that I would also need to change the stock EK gli rear lower control arms to fit the 22mm on the rear? but I stand to be corrected on this? :)

[gbpracing]

Currently have:
- Ek4 rear sway bar
- EK1 front sway bar
and I'm thinking of installing a ek4 front chassis brace.

For a FWD, the rear sway bar made a difference, and I'm thinking it might stiffen the car too much if I put a chassis brace at the front? or is it better to do this?

and then, possibly upgrade the front sway bar to ek4? (maybe)

I use the stock standard sway bar on my purpose built race car Integra LS 173KW @ wheels and it works fine.
Why anyone would think changing the swaybar will help on the road is beyond me !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hwnKCTRsBg

[Limbo]

if you want more oversteer you need to increase the rear swaybar strength.
BTW the EK rear sub-frame is pretty weak, i'd suggest getting a ASR brace.


Front chassis brace does help, but the stock one is pretty piss weak from an ek4.
I change all my bracing one at a time and I did notice the difference in the chassis brace.
You can get them pretty cheap

[bennjamin]

I use the stock standard sway bar on my purpose built race car Integra LS 173KW @ wheels and it works fine.
Why anyone would think changing the swaybar will help on the road is beyond me !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hwnKCTRsBg


...and what springs / spring rates are you running ?
There is heated discussion on the internets about (in a FWD) a bigger rear swaybar vs stiffer spring rates - but you are missing the point. To maintain comfort and increase handling ability you upgrade the rear swaybar. Simple. These arent race cars like you show.

[eekayfo]

i think on a race car hitting 230km in 5th, the last thing you want is to spin out of control on a corner. in a daily driver that only really pushes its handleing ability hooking around corners in the burb's, your alot less likley to loose traction and spin. and as such, the noticeable increase in oversteer is more "welcomed".

i drove a a mates cxi civic with skunk2 lowering springs 17"s with low profiles(tyre profile is also a contributor to body roll, im really happy with my 205/50/15 as far as comfort is concerned compared with low profiles), stock 22mm ?? front bar and no rear. it had more oversteer then my stock ek4. granted the ride was shit but i would probably put that down to the blown stock dampers. i guess honda gave the faster ek4 more oversteer to stop people killing themselfs in the wet? they could have easily run a 22 f

ps. dont buy a fake asr, they do not fit. get a whiteline for the same price. im sure you would see a benefit even with a 13mm

[Astrodice]

in a EK GLI scenario would you get more of an improvement in handling and cornering running a 22mm/13mm setup than a 22mm/22mm setup? Obviously a 26mm / 22cm would be optimal with subbrace?

[Astrodice]

Not sure if you al have seen this website but very interesting website to do some calculations.... with an explanation of this: http://www.blackartdynamics.com/Chassis/LoadTransferDC2.php

All those inputs are for a DC2-R, it's close enough to a Civic that you can just play with the spring rates and ARB diameters to see what effects the changes have.

The figure to look at is 'Front Diagonal'. This is the percentage of the total load transfer going across the front axle as is what the springs and bars affect, determining the basic handling balance.

An understeering Civic/Integra will be over 45% and an oversteering one will be under 40%.

A nicely balanced one will have that figure around about 40-45% with the lateral acceleration set at .7G.

You can set lat. acc. higher, but depending on the setup, lifting the inside rear wheel distorts the results.

[Astrodice]

interesting readings i get with 22mm / 22mm

Lateral Acceleration: G
Static weight distribution: %
Vehicle mass: lbs
CoG Height: in
Front Rear
Track Width: in
Roll Center Height: in
Unsprung Mass: lbs
Coil Spring Rate: lbs/in
Motion Ratio:
Bar Outer Diameter: mm
Bar Wall Thickness: in
Bar Length: in
Arm Length: in
Bar Motion Ratio: in
Front Rear
Ride Frequency 1.22 hz 1.55 hz
Wheel Rate (spring) 105.5 lbs/in 98.6 lbs/in
Wheel rate (bar) 25.98 lbs/in 221.91 lbs/in
Roll Stiffness 29.1% 70.9%
Load transfers
Unsprung 18 lbs 17 lbs
Geometric 17 lbs 24 lbs
Elastic 148 lbs 360 lbs
Combined 182 lbs 401 lbs


Chassis roll angle 2.2°

Total Load Transfer 583 lbs

Front Diagonal 41.04%

HOWEVER with 22mm/13mm I get the following:

Lateral Acceleration: G
Static weight distribution: %
Vehicle mass: lbs
CoG Height: in
Front Rear
Track Width: in
Roll Center Height: in
Unsprung Mass: lbs
Coil Spring Rate: lbs/in
Motion Ratio:
Bar Outer Diameter: mm
Bar Wall Thickness: in
Bar Length: in
Arm Length: in
Bar Motion Ratio: in
Front Rear
Ride Frequency 1.22 hz 1.55 hz
Wheel Rate (spring) 105.5 lbs/in 98.6 lbs/in
Wheel rate (bar) 25.98 lbs/in 27.06 lbs/in
Roll Stiffness 51.1% 48.9%
Load transfers
Unsprung 18 lbs 17 lbs
Geometric 17 lbs 24 lbs
Elastic 259 lbs 248 lbs
Combined 294 lbs 289 lbs


Chassis roll angle 3.86°

Total Load Transfer 583 lbs

Front Diagonal 50.21%

hmmmm interesting results

[Darmanin]

Didnt want to start a new thread, got a similar question.

I just realised that my ek1 has no front or rear swaybar.

I was rolling round on pedders springs with stock shocks, then upgraded to king springs with kyb shocks. This improved the handling, but i am still feeling a bit of bodyroll.

in terms of oem ek bars

Front
-22mm - EK1
-26mm - EK4/EK9

Rear
-14mm - EK4
-22mm - EK9

For a cheap upgrade would EK4 rear bar and EK1 front bar be a decent enough improvement?

[annes]

Yes, it will make a significant difference to the way the car corners without hurting the ride quality

[Darmanin]

ok, so which front swaybar would be the best balanced match for the EK4 14mm rear?

Having no front swaybar, the 22mm or the 26mm?

Ill probably end up upgrading the rear again to a 22mm+ with reinforcment etc later on.

[EKVTIR-T]

ek4 or equiv. size front will do and dc2r or ek9 rear

then later maybe look into changing the kingspring for a premium coil like eibach or SPOON

[lilthug]

Change your suspension bushings too ( front lca bushings , front compliance bushings , rear trailing arm bushings , rear lca bushings etc )
EK is over 10 years old , fresh bushings will stiffen up the car and improve handling of your car.

+1

i overhauled all bushes on my ek with the full catalouge that hard race provide

and it made a substantial improvement on that cars handling characteristics

[[stealth]]

How much it cost in labour to actually change it all over? With the hardrace kit