Bare minimum for engine swap

[CptKaos]

Hi all,

I want to use the driveline, ecu, fuelling etc out of a ITR DC2R for a kit car I'm building.

Now I want to keep the car wiring, lights, horn, brake lights, indicators etc separate from the ecu as much as possible, so my question is, what ecu do the DC2R's come with, and what are the bare essentials needed to run the motor?
Also I'd like to run and aftermarket dash such as the Haltech, Digidash or Aim dash, so is it possible to run these sensors (oil p, temp, tach, speedo) straight from sensors to dash, or does the honda ecu need the inputs.

My problem is to get registration I must run the stock ecu, intake, exhaust, fuel pumps and all emissions sundries, but I'm sure alot of these will "fall off" after rego, so I need to find out exactly what the ecu needs to run.

Am I correct in thinking the original DC2R ITR ecu is not compatible with Hondata piggybacks?
Are there any aftermarket ecu's that will handle the B18C7 as well as the honda ecu?

The car will just be my blat toy, and will be tracked 10-12 times a year as well, and will take the place of a westfield clubman I currently have.

So yea, atm I just need to know what are the bare essentials I need to run the motor, any advice is greatly appreciated!

TIA
Alex

[mocchi]

you talking about sensors? can only think of fuel vapor purge solenoid. i think the rest of sensors will throw cel if removed and engine wont run well.

[dorikin]

What I would do is use the complete DC2R engine harness + the section of the chassis harness that runs to the ECU (you will have to slice this out).
This will basically connect Engine > ECU

From there you will have to wire in (at minimum) the following to the ECU from your kit car:
-Voltage Backup
-Brake Switch
-Fuel Pump Main relay
-Starter Switch signal

From the driver side of the engine harness:
-you will need to supply 12v ign power to injectors, o2, iacv, vss, alternator
-these sensors go directly to cluster, RPM, Coolant temp, Oil pressure switch

You'll also need to wire in the Fan Switch directly and disable the ECU immobiliser if you're using an AUDM P73

[ECU-MAN]

Once you have it running with the stock OBDIIa ECU you can then use a conversion harness and an OBDI ECU that supports Hondata etc to make it tunable.

[CptKaos]

Excellent info thank you all.

So I'll need all engine sensors and solenoids except fuel vapor purge solenoid?
When you say "the section of the chassis harness that runs to the ECU" I gather that is Battery pos and neg, ign feed plus the other 4 you mentioned, Voltage Backup, Brake Switch, Fuel Pump Main relay, Starter Switch signal?

Does the conversion harness and an OBDI ECU replace the OEM ecu or work alongside?

Thanks again for your time, I appreciate it.

[mocchi]

Excellent info thank you all.

So I'll need all engine sensors and solenoids except fuel vapor purge solenoid?
When you say "the section of the chassis harness that runs to the ECU" I gather that is Battery pos and neg, ign feed plus the other 4 you mentioned, Voltage Backup, Brake Switch, Fuel Pump Main relay, Starter Switch signal?

Does the conversion harness and an OBDI ECU replace the OEM ecu or work alongside?

Thanks again for your time, I appreciate it.

hondata only runs on obd1 ecu thats why you need the conv harness. the hondata + obd1 ecu replaces your itr obd2 ecu
the purge solenoid might be needed for emission testing though, im not clear on that
i suppose you can just plumb charcoal canister without the solenoid like how honda did it in early model integras.

[CptKaos]

Ok cheers, that's clear now.
And the whole point of using all the oem gear is so I don't have to do an emissions test, as long as I use everything out of an Aus complied car the engineer can just sign off on that side of the build without a test.
It really just has to "look" right if you get my drift.;)

[dorikin]

It will make more sense when you strip the donor car but basically the engine harness does not run directly to the ecu. it plugs into the chassis harness near the strut towers

So essentially you will need to customise your own engine harness

[CptKaos]

Which is pretty much what I will do anyway, trying to put an entire OEM harness into a custom build always looks like a dogs brekky, hence my need to know the bare essentials to run the motor.
I just replaced the OEM 4AGE ecu in my clubbie with a Haltech unit and yeah, it was easier just to gut the whole lot and start from scratch.
As you say it should be easier once I have it laid out in front of me, just trying to get my head around it first, Honda and Toyota seem to do things quite differently re wiring...

Do you know if the wire colors carry through the same from the engine harness, to the chassis harness and onto the ecu plugs?

[ECU-MAN]

You need to get yourself the PGMFI schematic for the Engine and study it. You can then take what you been from the cabin harness and make your own harness u p from that.

[cbauto]

For our troubles, kindly let us know what you are working on.


Hehe

[lolmclol]

For our troubles, kindly let us know what you are working on.


Hehe

Lurk moar fgt

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184242

[cbauto]

Lurk moar fgt

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184242
I like getting spoon fed

[CptKaos]

You need to get yourself the PGMFI schematic for the Engine and study it. You can then take what you been from the cabin harness and make your own harness u p from that.

I had a bit of a search but I'm not sure if the schematic you refer to is tied to the car, motor or ecu.
Any tips on where/what to be looking for?

TIA

[mocchi]

I had a bit of a search but I'm not sure if the schematic you refer to is tied to the car, motor or ecu.
Any tips on where/what to be looking for?

TIA


hint:


http://mooselicker.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/sam-jackson.jpg

[CptKaos]

HMMMM, no idea sorry, that's one of them movie stars isn't it?:o

[CptKaos]

So it's Samuel L Jackson out of Pulp Fiction, but I don't see how copulating with someones maternal parent will help me wire up my injun....:p

[ECU-MAN]

find yourself a copy of the DC2R service manual floating around, In the manual you will find the PGMFI schematic under the fuel section

[CptKaos]

AH HA, sorted thank you Man.

Is it still possible to buy new sensor and ecu plugs to save splicing the old stuff into a new harness?

[amant02]

AH HA, sorted thank you Man.

Is it still possible to buy new sensor and ecu plugs to save splicing the old stuff into a new harness?

If you have the money to buy something you already have.

[daevilone]

Sure on your rules for rego? Sure it doesn't have to meet emissions standards?
When I was researching building kit cars the engine had to comply with an older version of the emissions standards. If that's not the case for you then awesome but it would suck if you got told the wrong thing until rego time...


Also re ecu. Get it running with stock stuff then rip out all the wiring and wire it all up from scratch. Don't stuff around with harness adapters and stuff. My thoughts anyway

[CptKaos]

Yes quite sure, I've already employed an engineer for the build and according to him (and others I've spoken to) any ADR 37/00 complied car (motor) can be used under the new NCOP rules for ICV's. These cars are already emissions compliant.
This is in Qld only though, other states, particularly NSW are different and more difficult.
In Qld the TMR is not involved at all any more besides paying your money and picking up the plates, the engineer now signs off on everything, it's a huge improvement for us.

[Dyln.bxtr]

For the harness issue, may I recommend looking at an ek4 harness. It's a one piece harness that runs directly to the ecu, not a half harness like the dc2's is.
But, if you're planning to run an aftermarket ecu, could be an investment to get an aftermarket engine look too. Some can plug directly into the obd1 and will look better too. They're more of a tucked hidden harness.

[CptKaos]

Thanks for the info, though I'll def make a new harness, hence why I asked about getting new plugs.
Trying to put 15-20 year old harnesses into a new, different shaped car if fraught with danger IMO, to many solder joints, loose ends, excess wire etc is a recipe for gremlins.
Making the harness is easy enough once you know what needs to be in it.

[Dyln.bxtr]

I would still recommend finding an ek4 loom and using it as a guide.

[CptKaos]

Well the spaghetti monster runs, the ecu is sitting on the floor and wires are everywhere, but it's running like a top.

Had some issues getting the plumbing right, thermostat didn't like the header tank feeding in next to it, wouldn't open, so put the feed in upstream of that and it works fine, fan is kicking in and out and hold temp nicely.

Had a few MIL codes to sort out but they're all done now, cold start and everything seems fine, although I still cant drive it obviously, the only code I'm getting now is 11, which I can't find any info on, but I only get that with service wire shorted, no MIL when running so prob not worth worrying about????

Existing loom is not in good nick, lots of hard/broken insulation so next step is a new loom, which brings me to my next decision.
I've found somewhere that sells ecu plugs and pins, so do I stick with my JDM OBD2A ecu and use a harness to convert to OBD1 for Hondata, if I go that way, or do I just make the loom to suit an OBD1 ecu and go straight to Hondata?

I'm leaning towards going OBD1 straight away, I guess my questions are,

1, what are the pro's and cons of going to OBD1, what sort of gains would I see. Engine is stock atm, bigger TB and completely different intake from stock, PLM Toda extractors into full 2.5' mandrell bent exhaust, no PS or A/C, lightweight flywheel and clutch.
Would the stock ecu run that as well as a tuned ecu?

Does the JDM ecu have the 180kph speed limit?

2, what sort of maps do the Hondata equipped ecus come with, will it simply plug and play with a similar tune to what the stock ecu currently runs, and fine tune from there, or will it require a full tune from the start?
I have neither the gear or knowledge to tune myself so will be dependant on someone else to do it for me.

[ECU-MAN]

code 11 is a Hondata code for engine over heat.

Code 11 will be one long MIL pulse and one short MIL pulse

code 20 is to long pulses

[rc_]

Well the spaghetti monster runs, the ecu is sitting on the floor and wires are everywhere, but it's running like a top.

Had some issues getting the plumbing right, thermostat didn't like the header tank feeding in next to it, wouldn't open, so put the feed in upstream of that and it works fine, fan is kicking in and out and hold temp nicely.

Had a few MIL codes to sort out but they're all done now, cold start and everything seems fine, although I still cant drive it obviously, the only code I'm getting now is 11, which I can't find any info on, but I only get that with service wire shorted, no MIL when running so prob not worth worrying about????

Existing loom is not in good nick, lots of hard/broken insulation so next step is a new loom, which brings me to my next decision.
I've found somewhere that sells ecu plugs and pins, so do I stick with my JDM OBD2A ecu and use a harness to convert to OBD1 for Hondata, if I go that way, or do I just make the loom to suit an OBD1 ecu and go straight to Hondata?

I'm leaning towards going OBD1 straight away, I guess my questions are,

1, what are the pro's and cons of going to OBD1, what sort of gains would I see. Engine is stock atm, bigger TB and completely different intake from stock, PLM Toda extractors into full 2.5' mandrell bent exhaust, no PS or A/C, lightweight flywheel and clutch.
Would the stock ecu run that as well as a tuned ecu?

Does the JDM ecu have the 180kph speed limit?

2, what sort of maps do the Hondata equipped ecus come with, will it simply plug and play with a similar tune to what the stock ecu currently runs, and fine tune from there, or will it require a full tune from the start?
I have neither the gear or knowledge to tune myself so will be dependant on someone else to do it for me.

When I loaded the the Hondata base maps on my fairly stock build it ran pretty rich everywhere. It didn't drive too badly but there was a lot of safety margin. Not a heap different in part throttle when I tried the itr map vs another b18c map.

There are a few provided when you download smanager, I just ended up using a jdmb18c map to start with.

Do you have a wideband to monitor your AFR's?

[CptKaos]

It's definitely code 11, 1 long followed by one short.
Just lifted the cover off the ecu, has no hondata board and has not been socketed butchered at all so no idea where the 11 code is coming from, manual suggests tossing ecu's when they throw up dodgey codes???

It's a P73-023 2001 JDM ecu, do you think it will have the 180kph speed limit?
I will be tracking it so can't have that, is it "defeatable"?

No wideband sorry, but good to know the base maps supplied were ok to start with, sounds like I should just go OBD1 now, building an OBD2 loom only to find out I have to swap because of the speed limit would do my head in.

Thanks for the help guys, John would you have an ECU you could hook me up with?

[ECU-MAN]

If there is a gap between the MIL flashed you could have code 10 and code 1

You cannot defeat the speed limiter on the JDM P73 ECU

Unfortunately I do not have any AUDM P73 ECU's

[CptKaos]

Sorry I meant an OBD1 ecu or something already hondatated...</new word

[CptKaos]

Just had a bit of a search and a refurbed ecu with a Hondata 300v3 is going to set me back about a grand by the look of it, the last brand new haltech sprint ecu I bought for less than that.
So if I get it registered with the JDM ecu, I can then put in whatever I like, so any advantage in an OBD1 ecu + Hondata over haltech/etc?

[CptKaos]

OK, cat skinned another way.

I pulled out the VSS and pulled it apart by spinning off the platsic ring holding the sensor together, then removed the internal wheel that spins and checked it with a magnet.
Although it's made out of plastic there's several spots where the magnet sticks.
Research shows the sensor puts out 5 pulses per rev of the wheel, so I cut a half moon off both sides, to keep it balanced, the glued it back together and bolted it back on.
Meter now shows only 2 pulses per wheel rev so hopefully problem solved.
I can adjust my dash to read the changed signal so that's not a problem, my only remaining query is whether or not the VSS has any effect on the running of the motor bar the speed output and the 180kph limit.
My guess is it does not have any effect on fueling/timing, can anyone confirm this?

[CptKaos]

For those that have helped me here and aren't aware of my other thread it's finished, thanks so much for all the help here, would of struggled more without it.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?184242-Hello-all!&p=4007649&viewfull=1#post4007649