When to tune?

[Blaze]

First I'd like to apologise to everyone for asking so many questions which I can understand are tedious and test you patience, but for all of your help I'm really grateful and I've learned heaps since joining the forums and actively participating.

So I'm very close to ordering and installing my exhaust system (headers, cat, cat-back) and from the reading that I've done I've come to understand that the air to fuel ratios will be altered after installation. Will the ECU in the car be able to adjust to give me the most out of the parts that I'm going to buy or will I need another ECU and a tune?

I'll be leaving the airbox standard (including resonator) if that makes a difference to my question.

Are there any risks to not tuning the car at all after installation?

If anyone really has the patience, other than a small gain in hp and torque what effect will the new equipment have over my stock equipment?

Thanks guys.

(Will rep for answers)

[DreadAngel]

If you do the standard I/H/E bolt on mods, it will be out of whack to a degree [Which various from car to car, mods, etc]. ECUs can only compensate so much, for some this is enough, but to really reap the benefit of all the Bolt-Ons, you need a tunable ECU of some sort with a knowledgable tuner to get the most out of it.

Hondata is one of the more popular brand of ECUs for Hondas, A'Pexi and Trust also have some less effective solutions. You also have the universal standalones from many brands if you want better, more functions and more precise tuning.

Is it worth the effort? This is something only you can answer.

Personally Bolt-Ons on a small NA Honda engine then use a small interceptor/piggyback ECU to finish it off if you're not considering further modifications such as Throttle Body(s), Cams, etc. Anything that requires the changing of fuel injectors please do it right and go the ROM-Tuned [Hondata] or Standalone ECUs.

[curtis265]

my 2c - I wouldn't bother until you do major items like cams and cam gears... Stuff the OEM ECU can't handle

You're not gonna get significant amounts of power so the cost is up to you. Call a few tuners and discuss your plans. they should be able to give you a decent idea of the ballpark figures

Tuning is expensive and it's something you probably want to do only once, if you can get away with it.

[Blaze]

For the short term I want to upgrade the exhaust. Longer term goals are drivetrain, brakes and suspension and lastly cams. My weakness in all this is that I don't have the knowledge to help me choose the parts I need so I guess I'm doing things the hard way, researching as much as I can on the parts I'll be buying as I go, with light reading on future parts.The biggest disadvantage that comes with the lack of knowledge is that I can only do so much myself, so in essence I don't only have to budget for the cost of parts but the cost of installation as well which I have no way of guessing. I also have no idea on the power I'll gain from bolt ons +/- tune as everyone seems to say that there's no way of really knowing without putting the car on a dyno.

[amant02]

There are 2 ways to look at it. I perfer wat curt has said.

But If you were to get ECU + Tune now it will be cheaper in future for a tune and you don't have to budget for an ecu when your motor is open.

More money can be spend on the motor at a later stage.

[Blaze]

There are 2 ways to look at it. I perfer wat curt has said.

But If you were to get ECU + Tune now it will be cheaper in future for a tune and you don't have to budget for an ecu when your motor is open.

More money can be spend on the motor at a later stage.
If I were to get the ECU now, then yeah I wouldn't have to buy it later but if I tuned it as well wouldn't I be spending twice the money? If I tune it now it won't make the next tune faster or slower would it? Cause they would need to re-tune for a completely different set up..

[amant02]

Nop it be quicker 2nd time

Cos they wont be wasting time with wiring, engine codes etc etc to get going.

Build motor straight onto dyno. Tune, break in motor, come in for another tune.

[amant02]

Speak to the guy who is going to tune for you. They will have more accurate information for you.

[Super-DA9]

420blaze,

You do not need a tune for an exhaust system...

It won't fuk up your AFRs.

Tune the car when you've either finished buying bolt ons or have installed something that requires tuning (eg. Cams).

Don't be a potato and tune every time you buy a bolt on mod.

[Blaze]

420blaze,

You do not need a tune for an exhaust system...

It won't fuk up your AFRs.

Tune the car when you've either finished buying bolt ons or have installed something that requires tuning (eg. Cams).

Don't be a potato and tune every time you buy a bolt on mod.

I don't want to be a potato.

[RenzokukenJ]

tune when you want to tune, not when people tell you to tune

[DreadAngel]

Just refer to my post, it's all there really...

[curtis265]

For the short term I want to upgrade the exhaust. Longer term goals are drivetrain, brakes and suspension and lastly cams. My weakness in all this is that I don't have the knowledge to help me choose the parts I need so I guess I'm doing things the hard way, researching as much as I can on the parts I'll be buying as I go, with light reading on future parts.The biggest disadvantage that comes with the lack of knowledge is that I can only do so much myself, so in essence I don't only have to budget for the cost of parts but the cost of installation as well which I have no way of guessing. I also have no idea on the power I'll gain from bolt ons +/- tune as everyone seems to say that there's no way of really knowing without putting the car on a dyno.

my only suggestion is to read endlessly, go through people's build threads and see what they've done, look at their mistakes and understand why they were so.

Really helps with costs if you have a go at DIYing stuff. If you have any mates who are pretty hands on you can learn a lot in a day.

Gains from I/H/E and a tune would be lke 10kw for a B series, i reckon.. i've never played with one though so someone will know more

[Blaze]

Just refer to my post, it's all there really...

Agreed, you've covered every path I could take.

[Blaze]

Curtis, I'm the most hands on out of my mates, they aren't into cars at all, they prefer gaming over anything in real life. One told me that in the time it took me to find an exhaust he'd built and tuned five cars on gran turismo....so you see how frustrating it is.
I've been reading a lot of build threads but sometimes it's difficult to spot the 'why something has gone wrong' part.
I doubt I'll tune now, it seems like it's huge money for hardly any gain.
Do you guys know the ball park figure it would cost to install a set of cams (including valve springs etc...)? so I can start putting together a budget.

[DreadAngel]

For these small motors and from what I can see of your intentions, you're not really aiming for big peak numbers, the mods you're talking about honestly help increase gains across the rev range or shift the power band for 'bigger' gains [Relatively speaking] at the cost of low-mid range. ECU Tuning is mean to finish what the bolt-on mods started and help them to their full potential. Its up to you if its worth it to you or not.

You can drop in 'mild' cams and hook up bolt ons, it could run ok, but it could also feel like there are power/torque gaps across rev range as the stock ECU tries to compensate. Is it as drastic as it sounds? maybe, maybe not, some people more sensitive to it than others.

[Blaze]

DreadAngel, you're right. I'm not chasing astronomical power figures. My intention is to increase the gain across the rev-range, or at least increase the mid to high range. I'm going to have to speak to someone who tunes engines and figure out which parts I'm going to need other than the bolt-ons I have in mind. The target is a daily driver with a little bit more urgency than it has now...that might mean a simple drive train upgrade or the cams. Either way I'm not 100% sure what should be done from here to achieve my target. I can honestly say I'm enjoying it though.