Overall parts combination

[Blaze]

I've been doing more and more reading on this forum, especially in the archives and a phrase that keeps popping up is, "The overall parts combination is what is important." My understanding is that if you just select a group of blingy parts that won't work well together you may as well be throwing money away. So how does a person determine which parts will work well together without buying and testing them out. Obviously trial and error in motor sport is very expensive and I would like to know if there is a way to determine what a part will do vs another part of the same category.

How do you all do it? I've been reading your build threads and have been blown away and how easy you all make it look.

[DreadAngel]

A lot of people do dump insane amount of $$$ because they either have no clue about cars or they go trust someone [eg Workshops etc] that take them for a ride. It all comes down to these points:

1) Clear Goal - Have a very clear idea what you want from your car, a lot of messy builds and wasted money comes from "I'm only going to do bolt-ons" to "I want just a little more" to "Ah **** it lets go all out". Just doing bolt-ons [When I talk bolt ons, I'm talking about more than just I/H/E] it can get expensive. So imagine if you had to rip all the stuff out and upgrade to more substantial parts? Labour, lost $$$ in sale of used parts, buying more parts = $$$$$$$$.

It's very difficult I know to have a very clear idea and we often get inspired by cars we see or read about but have a goal [Obtainable one and one that you know will keep you 'content'] and you will be less likely to run into the above scenario.

2) Research, Knowledge & Experience - I cannot stress enough these 3 things when it comes to cars. It sounds simple but a lot of people simply jump into modding cars blindly. While internet/forums isn't a 100% reliable source of information, it will still give you ideas about the cost, involvement and rough idea on the improvements/sacrifices made by a part(s). Read from multiple sources and read up about general car mechanics and physics cause this also helps you to understand how things work and when someone is talking about something that isn't quite right, you can pick it up.

Experience if you're starting out comes from guys that have been doing it a long time be it DIYers or Workshops. If you have them work on your car, try to be as involved as possible [Some people don't want you close, others don't mind giving you a mechanic/tuner 101], over time you'll get to pick up both skill and knowledge off them, making it easier to get things right and cheaper cause you can install or at least remove parts to make labour cheaper. If you're lucky and passionate enough, you'll become like them if you get it all right.

3) That Partlist - It's not obvious what that magical partlist you want can do for you at first, but once you've laid out the plan, you can quickly see if any new additions will impact on your build. The above point helps you determine this.

4) Sources, Contacts & Used Parts - A key cost component is parts, while its great just snapping up parts from the biggest store so you get that warm fuzzy feeling is cool for that split moment, long run its not brilliant.

Always check out what can be bought as a used part [Used parts itself beware of self imposed taxes, condition of parts, etc etc] as not everything 'can' be 2nd hand, lot of things to save you headaches and money should be bought new.

Have several key points of reference price wise and contacts that can help you get stuff from other countries also helps. A lot of my parts for example come from Japan, so I have several agents, contacts etc that work or located in JP to help me get the stuff I want either off Yahoo Auction or other websites. Some extra work and patience can really pay off too.

If you're buying frequently and a lot from shops in Australia, try to build a relationship with the seller, you may get discounts or notified of specials etc.



Not everyone does it like this, but those I've seen with builds that work generally have all these working for them.

[RenzokukenJ]

A lot of people do dump insane amount of $$$ because they either have no clue about cars or they go trust someone [eg Workshops etc] that take them for a ride. It all comes down to these points:

Take for instance the user EKVTIR-T. The forum found out that a certain BackYardPerformance workshop that they were doing dodgy shit. He didnt believe anyone at all and continued to stand up for them in anyway possible.

We suspect that he went to them to do some work, and guess what. He isnt here anymore is he.

Heh heh

[bennjamin]

just a thought

any BOLT ON REPLACEMENT parts , fashion parts - or "the usual intake header exhaust" DO NOT COUNT AS A "BUILD".

And yes - all the above any combo will not improve your car in anyway. All it will do is make
it noisier.

[DROPS]

As far as exterior styling goes, I use photoshop, but I'm biased as I make a living doing so.

Mechanically, well if it ain't broke don't fix it is my motto, but if you do want good advice this forum has been incredibly handy. I usually look to those who share advice based on the detail of their own build threads. Seems like the way to go IMO.

FAQs are a great source of info aswell.

[DreadAngel]

just a thought

any BOLT ON REPLACEMENT parts , fashion parts - or "the usual intake header exhaust" DO NOT COUNT AS A "BUILD".

And yes - all the above any combo will not improve your car in anyway. All it will do is make
it noisier.

Agreed!

Build is goes beyond the usual I/H/E... Anything with just Bolt-On + Dressup parts =/= A Build.

[Blaze]

just a thought

any BOLT ON REPLACEMENT parts , fashion parts - or "the usual intake header exhaust" DO NOT COUNT AS A "BUILD".

And yes - all the above any combo will not improve your car in anyway. All it will do is make
it noisier.

I agree as well. I was thinking more along the lines of; if I am going to buy [insert name] cams, how do I choose between A, B or C? What does each set do and will I need to make further modifications to make them work.
How do I choose which coil over/brake/wheel/intake etc is best?

[DreadAngel]

Check post #02, then ask further ;)

[Blaze]

My goals:
-A track/daily driver. Pure and simple, there's nowhere to go fast without police trying to raise money for the government. By that logic I need to go to the track.
-Power: does not need to be crazy I am more than happy with what my B16A is making at the moment. However, I want to prevent as much power loss through the drive train as possible.
-Suspension: at the moment it's on the original suspension. I'm unsure whether I should change it or not as I don't know anything about ride height or spring rates etc. All I know is that I don't want my exhaust to get damaged while going over NSW speed humps.
-Brakes: contrary to popular belief going fast means you need to be able to slow down fast. I'm aware that if I track my car with the brakes I have now they will overheat and fail. I don't know whether I should persue a complete brake overhaul or if it's as simple as changing the pads.
-Wheels: the most confusing part of all. What diameter, width offset and what tyre size to partner it up with.

That's it pretty much. It probably won't count as a build, but that won't bother me as long as I can go out and have fun with it without losing my license and drive it to work and back.

[Hondarally]

My goals:
-A track/daily driver. Pure and simple, there's nowhere to go fast without police trying to raise money for the government. By that logic I need to go to the track.
-Power: does not need to be crazy I am more than happy with what my B16A is making at the moment. However, I want to prevent as much power loss through the drive train as possible.. Don't worry too much about drivetrain losses. This is a very small part of your on-track speed. Much bigger gains to be had by having better ratios and LSD. The factory B series boxes are nice and close for a factory 5 speed. The benefit / cost of going close ratio box is probably not worth it unless you've sorted everything else first.

-Suspension: at the moment it's on the original suspension. I'm unsure whether I should change it or not as I don't know anything about ride height or spring rates etc. All I know is that I don't want my exhaust to get damaged while going over NSW speed humps.
Suspension is definitely going to give you the biggest gains. Good suspension does NOT mean super low. Stance / ride height is purely cosmetic, and in most cases actually harms track times. I managed respectable times at lakeside with my gravel rally EG6 (running about 30-40mm taller than stock) because the suspension rates were better than factory and properly matched to damper settings. Geometry was fairly stock as well. Go for a slight lower (maybe up to 40mm lower than stock) with good quality dampers and springs (dampers need to dissipate heat, so a good quality one won't turn to much when it gets hot). Dial in moderate camber and caster, and make sure that all the bushes / pickup points are capable of holding the suspension where it needs to be. Suspension is something that has to be matched to the car, the tyres (most important) and itself. Best talking to a specialist in this area, and pay a little more. Don't buy a set of cheap ebay coilovers and wonder why your car handles worse than before.

-Brakes: contrary to popular belief going fast means you need to be able to slow down fast. I'm aware that if I track my car with the brakes I have now they will overheat and fail. I don't know whether I should persue a complete brake overhaul or if it's as simple as changing the pads. Absolutely. But don't fall for the BBK hype. If you're running stock B16, then standard EK4 / DC2 size discs should suffice with decent pads and fluid. You only need to start talking 300mm rotors when you're pushing big hp numbers, and then only at tracks with big braking areas. More important to make sure that what you do have is up to the task (ie good pads, fluid, calipers in good condition etc.)

-Wheels: the most confusing part of all. What diameter, width offset and what tyre size to partner it up with. Plenty of obscenely fast Hondas running 15" wheels with up to 225/50 tyres. No need to go any bigger than that. Well matched tyres / suspension will make your car much faster than a bunch of ebay bling.


That's it pretty much. It probably won't count as a build, but that won't bother me as long as I can go out and have fun with it without losing my license and drive it to work and back.
Of that lot, I believe the suspension is where the biggest gains are to be had, but that's the most critical area for matching everything properly. Talk to some performance suspension specialists (I recommend MCA) to see what your options are. If you can get to any IPRA events, talk to the guys running Hondas (currently Civics are the pick for u2L supremacy). Some of those guys are happy to share ideas with enthusiasts, specially if you're thinking of joining them.

[Blaze]

Thanks heaps for your reply. I only have two questions. How wide or narrow should the wheel be to not foul at full lock and what offset should the wheels be? I'm not worried about appearance so much as not rubbing up against the wheel well when I need to turn at a round-about.

[Hondarally]

At the moment I have 15x7 +30 (I think - maybe +25) rims with 225/50's, and they rub on the inside at full lock. No trouble getting around a roundabout, but not good for doing u-turns. These tyres just fit inside the guard with upper camber arms, so can't go any less offset. I'm not 100% sure what's happening there (I haven't started sorting the suspension yet - it's just bolted together with no actual tuning or alignment done)

I would think that unless you're pushing some serious power, 205 tyres would be more than adequate, and will give you a bit more clearance inside and out. Even 195's will probably be OK. I ran 195's on the EG6 and had absolutely no trouble getting power down (I did have a clutch LSD though). If you're serious about track work, get proper track tyres (050's are good as they don't heat cycle as badly as the old 48's, and they tend to grip right till they are bald, but they are expensive). Get a second set of tyres and wheels if you want to do a lot of road driving, so you don't wear out your good race rubber.

[VT3C]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DreadAngel again."

Dread are you the only one on here I've been liking their posts ?? haha


A lot of people do dump insane amount of $$$ because they either have no clue about cars or they go trust someone [eg Workshops etc] that take them for a ride. It all comes down to these points:

1) Clear Goal - Have a very clear idea what you want from your car, a lot of messy builds and wasted money comes from "I'm only going to do bolt-ons" to "I want just a little more" to "Ah **** it lets go all out". Just doing bolt-ons [When I talk bolt ons, I'm talking about more than just I/H/E] it can get expensive. So imagine if you had to rip all the stuff out and upgrade to more substantial parts? Labour, lost $$$ in sale of used parts, buying more parts = $$$$$$$$.

It's very difficult I know to have a very clear idea and we often get inspired by cars we see or read about but have a goal [Obtainable one and one that you know will keep you 'content'] and you will be less likely to run into the above scenario.

2) Research, Knowledge & Experience - I cannot stress enough these 3 things when it comes to cars. It sounds simple but a lot of people simply jump into modding cars blindly. While internet/forums isn't a 100% reliable source of information, it will still give you ideas about the cost, involvement and rough idea on the improvements/sacrifices made by a part(s). Read from multiple sources and read up about general car mechanics and physics cause this also helps you to understand how things work and when someone is talking about something that isn't quite right, you can pick it up.

Experience if you're starting out comes from guys that have been doing it a long time be it DIYers or Workshops. If you have them work on your car, try to be as involved as possible [Some people don't want you close, others don't mind giving you a mechanic/tuner 101], over time you'll get to pick up both skill and knowledge off them, making it easier to get things right and cheaper cause you can install or at least remove parts to make labour cheaper. If you're lucky and passionate enough, you'll become like them if you get it all right.

3) That Partlist - It's not obvious what that magical partlist you want can do for you at first, but once you've laid out the plan, you can quickly see if any new additions will impact on your build. The above point helps you determine this.

4) Sources, Contacts & Used Parts - A key cost component is parts, while its great just snapping up parts from the biggest store so you get that warm fuzzy feeling is cool for that split moment, long run its not brilliant.

Always check out what can be bought as a used part [Used parts itself beware of self imposed taxes, condition of parts, etc etc] as not everything 'can' be 2nd hand, lot of things to save you headaches and money should be bought new.

Have several key points of reference price wise and contacts that can help you get stuff from other countries also helps. A lot of my parts for example come from Japan, so I have several agents, contacts etc that work or located in JP to help me get the stuff I want either off Yahoo Auction or other websites. Some extra work and patience can really pay off too.

If you're buying frequently and a lot from shops in Australia, try to build a relationship with the seller, you may get discounts or notified of specials etc.



Not everyone does it like this, but those I've seen with builds that work generally have all these working for them.

[nickk]

Don't worry so much about what is the best possible combo.
Once you are at certain level its all much of a much-ness, what you are choosing between is reliability and price.
You just need to decide what level to take your car to.

I've owned several B16 and B18 civics and a few other chassis
I think that I was a much better driver than some others so I consistently beat more powerful cars and more modified Honda's than my own,
this is probably my biggest point.

Your budget is the most important factor, but assuming you want to be reasonable but still spend money this is what I would be doing

1. coilovers (too many options, I would be looking at how stiff rather than which brand, theres heaps of good ones)
2. a bucket seat - recaro/bride something genuine not rep
3. 15x7 or 15x8 but not sticking out, +20 +25 type offset lowest - something genuine not rep
tyres -195/50/r15 or 205/50r15 semi slicks
4. adjustable camber arms front and rear
5. thicker sway bar like off an integra type r dc2 and a subframe brace for it

6. full bush kit, like all of them.

7. strut brace rear, tower or strut brace front

8. Integra dc2 vti-r brakes or 5 stud conversion

9. power steering and aircon delete


This would be the fun part

10.

Pull out motor, rebuild bottom end
Raise compression (several ways to do this)
Replace valves, springs, cams with more aggressive
...with stock bottom end, CTR cams, or a stg 1 set of cams are a good choice, you want even power if you want an overall combo.

ECU (s300 hondata), INTAKE (mugen airbox or something that isnt short and metal), headers (4-2-1), high flow cat, cat back exhaust.


and then next important, a good good dyno tune, this is extremely important, you could have a really nice car that's shit because of a shit tuner.

Then comes all the bullshit dress up mods.. I'd make my eg look like an eg6 prob

[chargeR]

My goals:
-A track/daily driver

Given what you've stated here I'd leave the car alone and head to a few track days. You're not going to have any idea what you want/need from the car until you head to the track.

[bennjamin]

Given what you've stated here I'd leave the car alone and head to a few track days. You're not going to have any idea what you want/need from the car until you head to the track.

Totally agree. Take it AS IS , bring some fuel and engine oil for a top up post event. Drop ya tyre pressure a touch and enjoy.

[DreadAngel]

Given what you've stated here I'd leave the car alone and head to a few track days. You're not going to have any idea what you want/need from the car until you head to the track.


Totally agree. Take it AS IS , bring some fuel and engine oil for a top up post event. Drop ya tyre pressure a touch and enjoy.

This OP, then comeback to us with feedback with your car as is condition etc

Go by feel not the timesheet, that'll come as you become more experience :)


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DreadAngel again."

Dread are you the only one on here I've been liking their posts ?? haha

I love you too man =P

[Blaze]

Thanks you guys! I'll take it to the track and I'll see how I go. Who knows, I may save myself some money in the process...

[Hondarally]

Yep that's a good start.

Before you go, check all fluids (recommend a brake fluid flush first) and check condition of suspension bushes, brakes, tyres etc. I've seen plenty of worn out cars come to grief at tracks because of poor maintenance.

As for tyres, I wouldn't be letting too much pressure out of your tyres, if any. Road tyres rely on pressure to maintain stiffness (as opposed to r spec tyres which have a much stiffer sidewall). Heat and pressure both kill tyres, but if your cold pressures are too low they will overheat internally (not necessarily related to tread temperatures). There's a misconception that the heat inside the tyre is generated by the friction with the track. Yes, this contributes, but is not the only source. I've seen heavy earthmoving tyres blow from excessive heat (you could smell the rubber burning from 100m away well before the tyre blew).

If the pressure is too high, you will lose a little grip. If it's too low, you can peel the tyre off the rim, or delaminate due to over temp. I know which I'd rather have. Of course this decision isn't as clear cut as it used to be, with the lines between road tyres and track tyres blurring all the time. Best to see what recommended pressures are for your tyres, and start at the high side (remember that all pressures are rated as cold. The pressure will increase when hot, and hot pressures can safely exceed the maximum rated cold pressure). You can always bleed a little pressure off after each run to gauge its impact, being careful not to go too low (again, once the tyre cools, you might find the pressure below the safe limit).

If it's your first time at the track, don't worry about playing with tyre pressures though. Set them at a safe level and leave them be. Chances are you won't notice any difference as you'll have too many other things going on.

[VT3C]

Yes, take your stock car, street tyres anything.. BUT.. I strongly recommend Baffled Oil Pan #1 only critical 'mod' !

Engine can be in fine shape with fresh fluids etc but longer corners at sustained mid-to-high RPM may cause oil starvation to your bottom end bearings and result in catastrophic engine failure.

Yes some people say to just over-fill your oil pan to side-step this, but over-filling with oil can create other problems on it's own.

[Super-DA9]

Good front pads and brake fluid are a wise investment for your first track day. Having your brakes fade out after one hot lap really kills the fun lolol.

[Blaze]

Yes, take your stock car, street tyres anything.. BUT.. I strongly recommend Baffled Oil Pan #1 only critical 'mod' !

Engine can be in fine shape with fresh fluids etc but longer corners at sustained mid-to-high RPM may cause oil starvation to your bottom end bearings and result in catastrophic engine failure.

Yes some people say to just over-fill your oil pan to side-step this, but over-filling with oil can create other problems on it's own.
Wouldn't that be exactly the same on the street though? With 4 litres of oil would there really be a risk? Once the oil is circulating through the engine etc how much oil would be left in the oil pan for continued circulation?

[curtis265]

Wouldn't that be exactly the same on the street though? With 4 litres of oil would there really be a risk? Once the oil is circulating through the engine etc how much oil would be left in the oil pan for continued circulation?

this is to stop the oil pump from dry reaching under hard cornering

something that doesn't happen on the street

[bennjamin]

this is to stop the oil pump from dry reaching under hard cornering

something that doesn't happen on the street


Guise pls

This shouldn't happen with normal road tyres at the track. IE overkill.

A baffled sump is a MUST if you are running semi slick tyres or better.
Normal road tyres will simply not get any where near the G forces applied to the oil supply in the sump. Worry about this when you get serious kids and please as always monitor your oil level and top of if need be.

[cbauto]

How did I miss this. Will contribute when I get home from work

[Super-DA9]

Guise pls

This shouldn't happen with normal road tyres at the track. IE overkill.

A baffled sump is a MUST if you are running semi slick tyres or better.
Normal road tyres will simply not get any where near the G forces applied to the oil supply in the sump. Worry about this when you get serious kids and please as always monitor your oil level and top of if need be.

Yup, exactly. :thumbsup:

[cbauto]

Yeah. What he said