Aftermarket LSD Shuddering

[Jennington]

Hey there.

I own a 1996 EJ8 Civic Coupe which has had a 1996 JDM ITR B18C swapped into it before I came into possession of the car. The owner specified that it has an aftermarket LSD, of what manufacturer I cannot identify, but the car shudders on takeoff if the wheel is not nearly centered. It tends to get worse the longer it takes for me to let the clutch out, and going gingerly with it seems to be worse. The car also has an aftermarket clutch and lightweight flywheel if that means anything. If I just let the clutch out pretty quick and balance the throttle I can avoid it, but when it is wet, or there is loose gravel or something, the front wheels tend to slip a bit.

I am just wondering if this is common, causes problems, can damage anything (since it really doesnt feel good), or can be fixed in any way. I have been looking at some Hardrace suspension upgrades and stuff, and one thing I noticed was something called a "Traction Bar," and in the description of it it said, among other things, that it could eliminate "tramping." I have no experience with this stuff, but it sounds like it might be what I have with my car.

If anyone could tell me about this problem, or help, or vouch for any parts that might help, that would be great. I will appreciate any feedback.

[u mad?]

Sounds like clutch chatter which is common with aftermarket HD clutches

I agree I hate it to, makes the car feels like a cheap piece of shit

[RenzokukenJ]

Sounds like clutch chatter which is common with aftermarket HD clutches

I agree I hate it to, makes the car feels like a cheap piece of shit
In my polo it used to piss me off, even worse in summer you can hear the chatter lol, sounded like a diesel

[90LAN]

you have a mechanical lsd, trying using thicker fluids

[connorling]

you have a mechanical lsd, trying using thicker fluids

I was told to use thinner fluid with mechanical LSD. at least that's what Mfactory suggested.


I have a 1.5 way Mfactory LSD and I had to use a thinner fluid.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom

[connorling]

Hey there.

I own a 1996 EJ8 Civic Coupe which has had a 1996 JDM ITR B18C swapped into it before I came into possession of the car. The owner specified that it has an aftermarket LSD, of what manufacturer I cannot identify, but the car shudders on takeoff if the wheel is not nearly centered. It tends to get worse the longer it takes for me to let the clutch out, and going gingerly with it seems to be worse. The car also has an aftermarket clutch and lightweight flywheel if that means anything. If I just let the clutch out pretty quick and balance the throttle I can avoid it, but when it is wet, or there is loose gravel or something, the front wheels tend to slip a bit.

I am just wondering if this is common, causes problems, can damage anything (since it really doesnt feel good), or can be fixed in any way. I have been looking at some Hardrace suspension upgrades and stuff, and one thing I noticed was something called a "Traction Bar," and in the description of it it said, among other things, that it could eliminate "tramping." I have no experience with this stuff, but it sounds like it might be what I have with my car.

If anyone could tell me about this problem, or help, or vouch for any parts that might help, that would be great. I will appreciate any feedback.

with take off vibration.
it most likely caused by the clutch as it might have a unsprung clutch. nothing to damper the vibration.


with the LSD, it clicks when low speed turning, I have that in my car, its painful, I noticed it less noticeable with the amsoil transmission fluid as it is thinner.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom

for daily drivers and weekend warriors, honda mtf is more than adequate. If it is just a daily driver that sees no harsh shifting whatsoever, then 10w30 engine oil is also more than adequate.

Honda mtf is just 10w30 engine oil + friction modifiers i.e helps the synchros to "bite" better.

E240 did not state that you should use engine oil in a race car, so i don't know why you keep asking that.

For a honda transmission, used on something that will see a lot of track time, what you want is:

1) low viscosity fluid. This is 100% necessity, as the fluid needs to lubricate the bearings. Thick "gear oil" cannot do this, and will clog up the oil pathways

2) friction modifiers + yellow metal friendly. The modifiers help the synchros to to "bite" better against the gear cone. A synchro ring after all is just a brake pad. The additives in the fluid must also be yellow metal friendly (i.e brass synchros). A lot of the "performance gear oils" on the market are not yellow metal friendly, and every special "lsd oil" on the market has the wrong type of friction modifier i.e they make the plates "slip", thus they also make the synchros "slip", which is not want you want when shifting at high rpm.

3) shock additives. These make the fluid more shear stable at high temperatures, and help cushion the shock loads generated by the transmission.

Now, the following is probably hard for most to take in, as they've been brainwashed by the lsd manufacturers for god knows how many decades now:

Helical/torsen lsd - this is a gear type lsd, it does not require any special sort of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above

plate lsd - this type of lsd uses plates, which rub against each other causing the "lock" (helical lsd's do not lock as they are torque biasing). The more friction there is, the harder the plates will lock. A by product of this though is "chatter" i.e the noise commonly associated with a plate lsd. As with the helical lsd, a plate lsd does not require a special type of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above. However, if you do not like the "chatter", then you should add ford friction modifier in very small quantities until the level of "chatter" becomes acceptable to your ears. Noise control is the only reason to use this type of friction modifier (which has the opposite effect of the friction modifier used in mtf or synchromesh-type fluids) on the average street/weekend warrior. If it is a race only car, then you shouldn't be concerned with noise. In this scenario, using friction modifier is so that you can fine tune how much the plates "lock".

The only reason why an lsd manufacturer insists that you must use their "special oil" is because they are trying to make more money from you. And 90% of car enthusiasts, unfortunately, have been brainwashed and believe them (or believe their tuner/mechanic, who are just as brainwashed).

So to conclude:

Street car/daily driver - honda mtf
street car/weekend warrior - honda mtf/torco mtf/amsoil mtf/pennzoil synchromesh
race car - torco mtf/amsoil mtf/pennzoil synchromesh
+ plate lsd - add ford friction modifier until the noise level becomes acceptable to you. Everyone is different. However, the more you add, the less effective your synchros are at high rpm.

P.s if you are wondering why i left out redline, it is because with 70% of our rebuild customers who had used it, it had destroyed their bearings. Some have luck, some don't.

[Jennington]

with take off vibration.
it most likely caused by the clutch as it might have a unsprung clutch. nothing to damper the vibration.


with the LSD, it clicks when low speed turning, I have that in my car, its painful, I noticed it less noticeable with the amsoil transmission fluid as it is thinner.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom
Thanks a heap.

The things which really turned me off the theory of clutch chatter is the fact that it only occurs when I am turning and the wheels are tyring to grip pretty hard, like on bitumen, but now with what has been said here, I think that you may be right with the clutch hypothesis.

Like, if I just let it happen and slowly let the clutch out without clutching halfway through or dumping it completely it just gets worse, and I would hate to feel what it would be like if I just let it happen: It really is rather loud and violent, since it shakes the whole car.

Anyway, I wish there was a way to know the specific model of clutch, but I really have no way of knowing, but if I were to replace it, what would I be looking at to hopefully beat this problem, or any others?

Thanks a heap.

[u mad?]

A sprung full face organic is what you should be looking for rather than a puk style clutch for less/ no chatter. Better for your transmission/ drive line related parts as well.

[90LAN]

I was told to use thinner fluid with mechanical LSD. at least that's what Mfactory suggested.


I have a 1.5 way Mfactory LSD and I had to use a thinner fluid.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom

up to you what you want to use, i prefer to use the so called rip off aftermarket lsd oil

[connorling]

up to you what you want to use, i prefer to use the so called rip off aftermarket lsd oil

just from experience, I switched from normal gear box oil to Amsoil thinner oil and it was making less noise.
I just stay with Amsoils now since it works for me. might not work for others.

[anjin]

So it is when turning only? And a plate lsd? That combination would be the lsd just doing its job of not letting the wheels turn at different rates. On a helical lsd I don't seem to get that effect; with a plate lsd I do see it.

You should be able to adjust the lsd settings to be more forgiving for street use, but that requires having the gearbox out and the lsd on the bench. And a good manual and belief in your skills.

[DreadAngel]

So it is when turning only? And a plate lsd? That combination would be the lsd just doing its job of not letting the wheels turn at different rates. On a helical lsd I don't seem to get that effect; with a plate lsd I do see it.

You should be able to adjust the lsd settings to be more forgiving for street use, but that requires having the gearbox out and the lsd on the bench. And a good manual and belief in your skills.

If you look at the construct and the way they engage, shows that the helical/viscous is very user friendly with minimal daily drive drawbacks but potentially for perfomance suffers when dealing with big power/torque OR racing application.

Mechanical LSD if setup correctly is good in racing apps but horrid for daily driving.

[bennjamin]

Here is a handy link with some decent info regardin the diff-ering (sorry!) types of diff out there.

http://www.trak-life.com/basic-introduction-helical-torsen-viscous-mechanical-limited-slip-differentials-lsd/

[Jennington]

Ok, thank you to anyone who offered their wisdom here at any point. I am very thankful and I am a lot more certain about my future choices to help this problem, or maybe fix it altogether.

Thanks a heap people.