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View Full Version : Shock Horror - BAR-Honda Accused of Cheating



mikes94
25-04-2005, 11:06 PM
Apparently the BAR of Jenson Button was examined by stewards following the Imola race and was found to be underweight. When weighed immediately after the race, the car was above the minimum weight limit. A further random spot check, whereby the fuel is drained from the car, resulted in the car being UNDER the minimum weight. Regulations state that fuel may not be used as ballast ... therefore technically the car was illegal.

After hearing an explanation and seeing subsequent documentation from BAR representatives, the stewards cleared the BAR ... BUT the FIA have appealled the stewards decision and the matter will go before the International Court of Appeal in May. This means that JB could lose the 3rd place ... and who knows what else could happen if it is discovered that BAR have been doing this for more races.

Pitpass.com is reporting that a 'secret' fuel tank was found onboard the BAR also. This means the car could do long stints and run underweight during the race, then at the final pitstop be topped up to ensure a valid minimum weight at the end of the race.

If this is true then I am VERY VERY disappointed and will lose a huge amount of respect for Honda and BAR. This is the kind of work I would expect from Toyota (who have been exposed as cheats in the past) but certainly not Honda. There is some possibility that this may be the work of BAR and not Honda, but with Honda being 45% owner of the team and having engineers working on the chassis as well as the engine ... I don't see how they could not have known about it.

Sochiro will most certainly roll over in his grave if this is true...

**Ghost**
25-04-2005, 11:11 PM
damn...

kenshin
25-04-2005, 11:12 PM
proof? links?

mikes94
25-04-2005, 11:17 PM
www.formula1.com has the 'official' news. Most f1 websites are reporting something similar.

www.pitpass.com has the 'secret fuel-tank' report. No-one else is reporting this yet so it may just be a rumour started by Pitpass writers.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24233

toE
26-04-2005, 01:22 AM
This is upsetting to hear.
This will surely damage BAR Honda's image and reputation. It might already has! :(

Fingers crossed, all works out for the better.

Keep us updated on this issue please. :)

^^v
26-04-2005, 01:41 AM
i sure hope that all is good.. and that they are NOT found guilty of breaking any rules...
its unsettling none the less to hear such accusations...


Further info on the matter...


At 11.33 am UK BST this morning (CET-1), B·A·R Honda received a faxed communication from the Secretary General of the FIA (Sport) confirming that the FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) is to lodge an appeal against decision number 49 of the Stewards following yesterday's San Marino Grand Prix in Imola.

In accordance with standard procedure, the FIA scrutineers all cars which have completed the race, which involves weighing and measuring the car, as well as performing random checks. During scrutineering of the B·A·R Honda 007-04 race car (entry number car 3) driven by Jenson Button, the FIA requested that the car be measured and weighed to ensure its compliance with the FIA Technical Regulations. The car was found to be compliant with all the regulations, including being above the weight limit.

Thereafter, the FIA decided to perform a further check and requested that the team drain the fuel tank and then siphon out all the residual fuel remaining in the system. Once this had been completed, they determined that the car was below the required minimum weight.

The FIA invited B·A·R Honda to explain their position and the team was able to demonstrate, using its own data and data gathered by the investigating stewards, that the car was above minimum weight at all times during the race.


Late last night, at the Imola circuit, the stewards confirmed that they were satisfied with the factual data supplied by the team. This confirmation was presented to the B·A·R Honda team by the stewards in the form of a signed document entitled decision number 49.

B·A·R Honda is therefore surprised that the FIA has decided to appeal against decision number 49, which was taken by FIA-appointed stewards.

The FIA has requested an appeal hearing at the FIA International Court of Appeal in Paris on Wednesday 4 May 2005. The team will of course co-operate fully with this request.

B·A·R Honda Chief Executive Nick Fry said "B·A·R Honda will provide the same rigorous data presented to the stewards last night and is confident that it can prove once again that the car was fully compliant with the FIA Technical Regulations throughout the San Marino Grand Prix."

Press release
BAR Honda



source f1live.com

THRUST
26-04-2005, 03:51 AM
HONDA have nothing to do with this one, its totally BAR, all HONDA do is provide the engine, BAR control everything in terms of Racing, I think Honda will be coming out with their own team in the future.

mikes94
26-04-2005, 08:58 AM
No sorry Thrust ... Honda are now 45% owners of BAR. They do not only provide an engine, they also have engineers working in collaboration on the chassis (F1 cars need to be totally integrated to be competitive these days). So whilst BAR are mostly responsible for the chassis ... there are indeed Honda engineers involved in this area also.

SINISTR
26-04-2005, 09:50 AM
Bugger!

i think the whole 'EXTRA' tank idea might be a bit of a tale...

have to wait and see I guess!

IRI
26-04-2005, 11:38 AM
Haven't honda been done for cheating in F1 before??? Isn't that why they were 'mugen' engines instead of 'honda' engines for the past ten yrs???

Kawasaki
26-04-2005, 11:43 AM
Bad news.

Would be good to see honda make a factory team

mikes94
26-04-2005, 12:28 PM
Haven't honda been done for cheating in F1 before??? Isn't that why they were 'mugen' engines instead of 'honda' engines for the past ten yrs???

Huh?!?! Where on earth did you hear this?
Honda left f1 previously (1992 I think) as it had no more to prove ... it had handed everyone their a$$es on a plate! :D

Mugen continued to develop the old Honda unit and supplied to Ligier and then to Jordan. When Honda returned Mugen pulled out (at the advice of Honda).

As for a Honda factory team ... there have been rumors that Honda will completely take over BAR when tobacco sponsorship is banned (within the next couple of years). Honda has stayed out of it until now because it doesn't like to get involved in the politics (they are there for the technical challenge only :thumbsup: ).

IRI
26-04-2005, 12:32 PM
Huh?!?! Where on earth did you hear this?


I dunno some clown on the side of the road.... thanks for the clarification:D

LUD02C
26-04-2005, 02:52 PM
Honda = cheaters!

Javed
26-04-2005, 05:22 PM
This is all bs. Seocndary tank my ass, probably started by some stupid Ferrari fan. If the stewards were happy with the data, then the FIA will be too, although they are asses for appealing it!

^^v
26-04-2005, 06:26 PM
This is all bs. Seocndary tank my ass, probably started by some stupid Ferrari fan. If the stewards were happy with the data, then the FIA will be too, although they are asses for appealing it!

i agree!

nEUROtic
26-04-2005, 07:43 PM
There is a theory that DR left last year because he was being pressured into this kind of thing, and quit in disgust.....


He DID kinda leave in a hurry...

LUD02C
26-04-2005, 07:46 PM
Ferrari fan?
You honestly think they would waste there time with a car that is 2 seconds quiciker?
That would of been celebrating lol

Dave Richards was the best thing that ever happened to that team, he made so many improvements made a great chassis and engine and got Jenson on board.

nEUROtic
26-04-2005, 07:50 PM
Well not a lot was ever said about why he left, obviously there was a lot of results under him. Why lose an asset like that? And why lose him not to another team? But outta the entire sport? Sounds like he had enough!

LUD02C
26-04-2005, 07:58 PM
I'm sure he went back to Prodrive which he owns 49% or 51% can't remember he sold must of it to help Petter win the WRC title.

Javed
27-04-2005, 10:39 AM
Yep DR went back to Prodrive which i think he owns 51%.

^^v
27-04-2005, 07:17 PM
Fry – We’re not cheating
BAR Honda set for final decision
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All for nothing? Button's strong race could be
It’s curious times when the sports governing body goes against it own Stewards and decides to follow procedure against a competitor within its sanctioned series. This is what happened on Sunday and Monday as Scrutineering deemed the BAR Honda to be a legal weight and then the FIA then appealed against that decision on Monday.

"This team is owned by two blue-chip international corporations with huge integrity," Reuters report BRA Honda CEO Nick Fry as saying. "Does anyone really think that we would deliberately do anything against the rules? We've hidden nothing."

"Given the political situation in the sport we are concerned about everything," Fry continued. "We are hanging on to the basic belief that right will prevail at the end. At no time was the car light and I don't think that we've done anything wrong.”

The international court of appeal will hear the case on May 4th in Paris.

Earl ALEXANDER
© CAPSIS International


source f1live.com

civ_sik
27-04-2005, 07:49 PM
yea i hope they dont get any sort of penalty out of this, damn fia shoudl ***k off

wlee2
27-04-2005, 07:56 PM
sob this is bad why pick on poor lil honda.. i meen seriosly honda only came third and there was a nut case ferari car that was 2 SECONDS FASTER THAN everyone else.. tell me why so =(.. its probably because hes a good driver but im trying to look for excuses NoOoOOo....

ah8118
27-04-2005, 08:34 PM
no honda......... nooooooooo.......... oh wells, i'll call honda 2mrw and and talk to the CEO....i am outraged and i want an explanation from him....... hahahaha.. load of bs from me....

mikes94
27-04-2005, 09:09 PM
Cheating is cheating ... if BAR-Honda have infringed the regs they should have the book thrown at them like any other team.
This is not how Honda should go about winning. I just hope that in fact they have not infringed any rules and that they will be cleared ... we'll just have to wait until next week to find out.

redliner
27-04-2005, 10:40 PM
Finally that settled, BAR still has yet for poll position

kenshin
27-04-2005, 10:45 PM
like mike said...
even thou this is a honda site... rules are rules and if BAR infringed it... they should be penalised...

but all the data supplied to the race stewards was ok after 6 hrs ... so the FIA wouldnt have much to work on...

lets wait til the 4th

^^v
03-05-2005, 11:28 PM
the FIA's appeal hearing is today... wonder how things will go..
hmmmm

civ_sik
04-05-2005, 12:32 PM
hopefully the fia find nothing cause otherwise they still have no points, wonder why the fia appealed it, as they had already been cleared :S

mikes94
04-05-2005, 02:08 PM
The rumour is that the FIA previously suspected BAR of cheating due to a tip-off from some ex-BAR employees. Up until San Marino BAR have retired every race so there was no reason to check … but what a perfect time when JB steps onto the podium for the first time of the year! The FIA were waiting armed with special tools including an endoscope (for the car not for poor JB!! :D ).
Clearly this was premeditated and wasn’t a standard post race check. Apparently the FIA officials were extremely interested in the BAR-Honda … whilst the Renault and Ferrari were payed significantly less attention.

Javed
04-05-2005, 02:50 PM
Yeh cus they know the BAR is gonna ****in PWN :P

^^v
04-05-2005, 06:19 PM
Critical days for BAR Honda
International Court of Appeal now underway
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Fry maintains that BAR Honda did not cheat
FIA President Max Mosley is the sole individual taking questions and giving his views in this Friday’s press conference organised by the FIA in Barcelona. It should prove an interesting session as today the International Court of Appeal meet to hear an appeal put in by the FIA regarding the legality of Jenson Button’s BAR Honda that finished third at the San Marino Grand Prix.

The BAR Honda 007 was scrutineered by the Stewards at the circuit and it seems that there was some debate as to whether the chassis was underweight or not. The BBC has reported that the weight came in at 594.6 KG, 5.4 KG under the minimum allowed of 600. After hours of deliberations the Stewards passed the chassis only for the FIA to appeal against that decision.

"We are hanging on the basic belief that right will prevail at the end," BAR Honda CEO Nick Fry told the BBC. “At no time was the car light and I don't think that we've done anything wrong."

The hearing is now underway in Paris and an announcement is expected on Thursday afternoon, 24 hours before Mosley’s press conference at Circuit de Catalunya.


The following is a question and answer guide to the International Court of Appeal provided by the FIA.

1) What is the International Court of Appeal?
The ICA is the final appeal tribunal for international motor sport established under the FIA Statutes and the FIA’s International Sporting Code (ISC) to resolve disputes in the sport brought before it by any of motor sport’s National Sporting Authorities world-wide, or by the President of the FIA. It can also settle non-sporting disputes brought by national motoring organizations affiliated to the FIA.

2) What kind of cases does it hear?
Each year the ICA holds on average eight hearings mainly submitted by the National Sporting Authorities and usually arising from appeals against decisions of stewards in a wide variety of motor sport disciplines (Article 184 of the ISC). In recent years appeals have come from events in the FIA GT championship, F3000, Touring Cars, Porsche Supercup, the World Rally Championship, Cross Country Rallies, Rally Cross, Historics, and, of course, Formula One.

Although Formula One cases draw public attention to the ICA, in fact appeals from the FIA Formula One World Championship are only a small part of the ICA’s activity. Between 2000 and 2004, for example, there were 43 appeals heard by the ICA of which just five concerned Formula One.

Cases brought by national motoring organizations are very unusual, there having been just a single non-sporting hearing since 2000.

3) Where do the Judges come from?
The judges that make up the ICA come from 18 different countries (Article 188 of the ISC). Each year one third of the Judges and their Deputies are elected by the FIA General Assembly. The Judges must have both legal and sporting experience and cannot also serve as a member of the FIA World Motor Sport Council or any of its Sporting Commissions.

At each hearing the Secretary General of the ICA chooses a panel that must consist of a minimum of three Judges (Article 188 of the ISC). His choice is determined by two factors: the rule that a Judge coming from a country that is the same as that of an involved party cannot serve in the panel; and the practical matter of the availability of Judges for hearings that sometimes have to be held at short notice.

4) How are appeals by competitors brought before the ICA?
Appeals by competitors to the ICA are made on their behalf only by the National Sporting Authority to which they belong. Appeals against decisions of the stewards at a meeting have to be notified within one hour of the publication of the decision. An appeal fee of €6000 becomes payable on notification of an intention to appeal. The appeal must then be confirmed by the National Sporting Authority to the ICA secretariat within 7 days of the publication of the decision (Article 186 of the ISC).

5) When and where are hearings held?
Once an appeal has been confirmed the Secretary General of the ICA will appoint the panel of judges and choose a date for the hearing. These are held at the FIA Headquarters in 8 place de la Concorde, Paris.

The Secretary General will issue a convening notice giving adequate notice to the parties of the date and time of the hearing and stipulating the time limits for receipt by the ICA of the appellant’s grounds of appeal and the respondent’s reply in defence. At the hearing the Judges present elect a President to direct the conduct of the proceedings.

6) What does the ICA decide?
The ICA may allow or dismiss an appeal, and may decide to confirm, waive, mitigate or increase the penalty. It can annul the results of a competition, but cannot order any competition to be re-run. The ICA may also decide to award the costs of the hearing excluding the expenses and defence fees incurred by the parties. The judgement is written in French and English and available to those interested (including the media) provided a request in writing is received. Once notified to the parties by the Secretary General, the judgement is binding with immediate effect.

7) Is the Court independent of the FIA Sporting Authority?
Yes. The Judges are elected by the FIA General Assembly and act entirely independently of the FIA executive. The ICA respects the ‘adversarial principle’ and more generally the rights of defence. The appellants and respondents, therefore, after having been given adequate notice of the hearing, have the right to set out their respective cases, call witnesses and submit evidence. The ICA decision’s are reasoned (Article 189 of the ISC). There is also nothing to prevent any party from pursuing any right of action before any Court or Tribunal (Article 191bis of the ISC). These ICA procedures reinforce its independence.

Recently the independence of the ICA was challenged in the French Courts by an appellant that was unhappy with a decision of the ICA. In rejecting this challenge to the ICA the Tribunal de Grande Instance de Paris confirmed that procedures outlined above “prove the independence of the ICA”.

(See: the Judgement made on 29th March 2005 of the Tribunal De Grande Instance de Paris on the application made by Coli & Cie to nullify the ICA Decision of 7th October 2003 concerning the appeal brought by the Federacao Portuguesa de Automobilismo e Karting (FPAK) on behalf of Mitsubishi Motors of Portugal S.A. against the decision of the stewards of the meeting of the Rallye d’Orient 16 August 2003).

Furthermore, like the Judges, the Secretary General of the ICA is also elected by the FIA General Assembly. He is not an employee of the FIA, and reports directly to the General Assembly. As such he is entirely independent of the FIA’s sporting authority, and other executive bodies.

Given that National Sporting Authorities and National Motoring Organisations are the bodies that act for appellants and respondents when appeals are brought before the Court, both the Judges and Secretary General are, therefore, directly and exclusively accountable to the users of the ICA.

8) Are the proceedings of the ICA confidential?
No. Since 2001 the hearings of the ICA for sporting cases have been open to the media. According to the space available in the Court room those journalists or observers who have made a written application to the ICA secretariat will be allowed to be present throughout the hearing (Article 188 of the ISC).

In 2003 it was agreed, after consultation with parties, to permit the filming of the ICA hearing of the appeal made by the UK Motor Sports Association on behalf of the BMW Williams F1 team concerning the decision of the stewards at the 2003 German Grand Prix. The hearing was subsequently televised live by the German company RTL and extracts were made available to news broadcasters.

E.A.
Source FIA



source f1live.com

^^v
04-05-2005, 08:53 PM
man this is so not good T_T



BAR Honda team face a possible ban for cheating when they appeared before motor racing's International Court of Appeal on Wednesday. The team have been ordered to prove they did nothing illegal when the Briton claimed third place in last month's San Marino Grand Prix.

The FIA has appealed against a decision by the Imola track scrutineers who found Button's BAR conformed to the legal minimum weight limit. If it can be proved they cheated in using fuel as illegal ballast, they could be thrown out of the world championship. When the car was weighed immediately after the race it was found to be above the weight limit but it was below the limit when the fuel tank was drained.

FIA scrutineers at the track accepted BAR's explanation but the FIA, suspecting the car was loaded with petrol as ballast, has put the case before the FIA International Court of Appeal in Paris. The FIA has come down on cheating in the past. 1995 defending champions Toyota were thrown out of the World Rally Championship for using an illegal turbo-charger.

"If somebody is caught cheating, they will be out of the championship," said Max Mosley, the FIA President, before the start of the season. "And it doesn't matter who it is - whether it's Ferrari, Minardi or anybody in between. It has to be like that."

There has been speculation that the FIA was tipped off about BAR's so-called 'secret fuel tank' by former employees who are now working for a rival team. But if BAR were banned that would leave only 18 cars on the starting grid for the remainder of the 2005 season and possibly mean top teams having to field a third car to make up the numbers agreed between the race organisers and Formula One Management.

The verdict will be published on Thursday.

E.A.
Source AFP




FIA request BAR exclusion if guilty
Plus a one million Euro fine
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A big day for BAR Honda
BAR Honda will find out in the next 24 hours whether or not they are to be excluded from the remainder of the 2005 Formula One Championship.

According to the Reuters news agency, the FIA have requested the International Court of Appeal today in Paris that the team should be excluded from the championship and fined at least one million Euros if found guilty.

Few details are available at present, but it is up to BAR Honda, headed up by QC David Pannick, to prove that they did not intentionally run Jenson Button’s BAR Honda 007 underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix.

Button finished third at San Marino and a verdict is expected Thursday afternoon.

Earl ALEXANDER
© CAPSIS International



:( :( :( :(
if they're found guilty.... its all over *cries*

civiceg9
04-05-2005, 10:30 PM
I don't think Honda cheats, they have reputation as one of the best motor engineering. They were World champions in F1 from 1986-1992 in a row, I think that speaks for some respect.

FIA is stupid, Honda should join force in GPWC :D

^^v
05-05-2005, 01:18 AM
IF some how they are found guilty..
i'd place all the blame squarly on BAR :wave:

^^v
05-05-2005, 10:47 AM
man this doesnt sound good at all...:thumbdwn:



Ecclestone claims BAR Honda have no excuse
'You have to assume they'll be found guilty'
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BAR's Nick Fry and his documents:
Enough to win this case?

Formula One Management President Bernie Ecclestone insisted that a fine is not enough if BAR Honda are found guilty of deliberately breaking the rules. The ruling will be announced on Thursday but Ecclestone for one would have little sympathy should the guilty verdict come in.

"If you can do that why doesn't a team at the beginning of the season give over a cheque and say if I'm caught cash the cheque," said Ecclestone. "There are a million things you could do. I suppose if they are not excluded from the championship you could say the constructor cannot score points in the championship and maybe the driver is excluded from the points he has now and all the other ones count."

Ecclestone offered little hope for a not guilty verdict for BAR, who continue to protest their innocence.

"With the information that's available, you have to assume they'll be found guilty," he claimed. "There's always a reason for these things - it's never a mistake. If they said they had a problem and they needed a particular part to overcome a particular problem, they would have gone to the FIA."

E.A.
Source AFP





what a fkn wanker :rolleyes:


Alonso accuses BAR and Ferrari of cheating
Championship leader pulling no punches
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Alonso has his own views ahead of his home
event at Circuit de Catalunya
BAR-Honda and Ferrari both cheat by respectively fielding an under- weight car and conducting more testing than is allowed, Renault's Fernando Alonso claimed today.

"There are two teams that cheat: the first is BAR Honda, that was proved in San Marino, and the second is Ferrari - all the teams tested for six days whereas Ferrari tested for 20," Alonso stated ahead of his home Grand Prix.

The championship leader was speaking out on the day that the FIA called on BAR Honda team to be thrown out of this year's championship if they are in fact found to be cheating.

The British team are in the dock after the car in which Button finished third in San Marino weighed in 5 KG under the 600 KG weight minimum. The International Court of Appeal has however not yet announced their verdict which is expected on Thursday afternoon.

Alonso's claims that Ferrari are cheating is actually wide of the mark as the Italian Champions have been perfectly up-front in the fact that they decided not to join the remaining nine teams in limiting testing this year. According to the FIA, this is completely legal as they do not dictate testing regulation.

Alonso goes into this weekend' Spanish Grand Prix seeking his fourth straight win of the 2005 season.



source f1live.com

Kawasaki
05-05-2005, 11:05 AM
yeah 20 test days vs 6 is just bs ferrari are dogs

have to wait and see what happens to BAR

mikes94
05-05-2005, 12:22 PM
Unless he's been mis-quoted Alonso is clearly an idiot.

Alonso says that BAR cheat because it was proved in San Marino ... well it hasnt been proven yet. That's what yesterdays hearing was for. Alonso is clearly basing his opinion on whats been heard around the paddock (and probably most of what we have heard) not any hard evidence.

Alonso says that Ferrari cheat because they have exceeded/not agreed to the testing limit. This is rubbish because the testing limit is a "gentlemans agreement" between all teams except Ferrari. Ferrari would not agree ... and whilst this is a little unsportmans like it is by no means cheating.

I have just lost a lot of repect for Alonso ...

Hondavirgin
05-05-2005, 01:00 PM
[04/05/05 - 13:08]

FIA request BAR exclusion if guilty
Plus a one million Euro fine


A big day for BAR Honda and
Technical Director Geoff Willis

BAR Honda will find out in the next 24 hours whether or not they are to be excluded from the remainder of the 2005 Formula One Championship.

According to the Reuters news agency, the FIA have requested the International Court of Appeal today in Paris that the team should be excluded from the championship and fined at least one million Euros if found guilty.

Few details are available at present, but it is up to BAR Honda, headed up by QC David Pannick, to prove that they did not intentionally run Jenson Button’s BAR Honda 007 underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix.

Button finished third at San Marino and a verdict is expected Thursday afternoon.

Earl ALEXANDER
© CAPSIS International

Excluded from the rest of the season is a bit harsh i think, exclude points up to now i reckon for manufacturer and drivers.

and yeah, i agree, Ferrari refusing to limit testing is pretty bad for the sport i think, as its one of the few cost cutting measures that actually cuts costs, but its not cheating.

LUD02C
05-05-2005, 01:11 PM
Alonso is acting abit immature now.
BAR have not been proven guilty yet and you can't call them cheaters to the media JUST YET ;)

As for Ferrari cheating comment, here is a simple and effective way of solving it.

Each tyre Manufacture should be allowed a certain amount of hours to test with any team.
Now if Ferrari are the only main team using Bridgestone then they get to test more, and teams like Williams, BAR, Toyota, McLaren and Renault can share the hours for testing for the Michelin tyre.

Is that fair? I think so.
How do you like LUD02C's testing purposal?

Hondavirgin
05-05-2005, 01:17 PM
Each tyre Manufacture should be allowed a certain amount of hours to test with any team.
Now if Ferrari are the only main team using Bridgestone then they get to test more, and teams like Williams, BAR, Toyota, McLaren and Renault can share the hours for testing for the Michelin tyre.

Is that fair? I think so.
How do you like LUD02C's testing purposal?

nah, then you'll have arguments between teams that team A has got more testing than Team B, coz obviously the tyre company is going to use their best team for tyre testing. And if you make it an even split, then teams who get tyres from a supplier who supply's only a few teams will have more testing time than those who get their tyres from a supplier supplying lots of teams....if that makes sense :D Problem is that no team tests just tyres, they test everything else too!

If Bridgestone had looked after all the teams they had instead of just Ferrari they wouldn't be in this situation.

JESPER
05-05-2005, 01:30 PM
Any more news??

Why dont they just put their foot down and tell Ferrari(and every other team for that matter) that you have X days...if you cant get your shit together by then, then you arent what your makin out to be.



Soz...jus cut at the thought of Honda cheating :(

Hondavirgin
05-05-2005, 01:42 PM
coz the FIA and Ferrari are too busy kissing each other's asses...

kenshin
05-05-2005, 01:56 PM
man this saga just drags on and on...

JESPER
05-05-2005, 03:04 PM
coz the FIA and Ferrari are too busy kissing each other's asses...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

Theres always someone thats on the payroll lol


Mate was tellin me (he gets the FIA newsletter) that weight is car+driver+remaining fuel after race....all the fuss was about the so called 'surge' tank...a loophole in the rules that Honda used to their advantage to atomise fuel or sumthing...im sure someone else must have the newsletter and can confirm and reword what I said lol...

^^v
05-05-2005, 03:07 PM
GMM) Formula One's governing body has asked an appeal court in Paris to 'exclude' BAR from the 2005 championship.

At a nearly three hour hearing on Wednesday, the FIA also called for a million euro penalty after essentially accusing the Brackley based team of cheating.

The case centres on a 'flexible' fuel tank that, the FIA believes, can pressurise fuel and give BAR an 'illegitimate' advantage.

BAR's lawyer, a QC, argued that the penalty would be 'disproportionate,' while technical director Geoff Willis denied any wrongdoing.

The court's ruling is expected Thursday afternoon.




source f1central.net

JESPER
05-05-2005, 03:10 PM
Cheers mate

pornstar
05-05-2005, 03:35 PM
Jase, I disagree with the tyre testing u brought up. It isnt the FIA's fault that bridgestone didnt treat their teams right.

The aim of all this is to cut down costs to the TEAMS, not the tyre suppliers.

LUD02C
05-05-2005, 04:17 PM
All motorsport these days are trying to cut down testing and other cost.
After Pueguot and Citrein (sp) said it was too expensive to be in WRC and people complaining in F1 and even Super taxi's are bitching about it.

My opinion: Top Rally and Top open wheeler should be a show stopper on so many levels and SHOULD introduce new technology (which comes from testing) which later on people find in there road cars.

Its just like saying Broncos and Roosters etc can only train 3 days a week with no warm up and just play.

At the top level it makes no sense!
Can't afford it?
JOIN ANOTHER RACING LEAGUE!
Get new sponsors, after banning cigarette companies they killed a lot of money they could have.

Oh well, thats the way I look at it.

^^v
05-05-2005, 05:51 PM
BAR to take FIA to court if found guilty...




(GMM) BAR will return the favour and take the FIA to court if found guilty of cheating and excluded from the championship.

BAR-Honda 'CEO' Nick Fry refused to rule out challenging, in a civil court, an adverse decision of Paris' International Court of Appeal.

''If we were to be excluded,'' he said, ''we would have no choice.

''We would have nothing to lose.

''But we are assuming ... that won't be the case.''

'The Times' in Britain said the Brackley team will probably make some staff 'redundant' if handed the ultimate penalty.

Meanwhile, in London, F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone chucked out rumours that - should BAR be excluded - some teams might have to run a third car to make up the numbers.

''You can't suddenly make people run more cars,'' he explained


source f1central.net

panda[cRx]
05-05-2005, 07:16 PM
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15184925%255E39478,00.html

from the herald sun


Threat to throw out BAR

05may05

FORMULA One's governing body accused BAR of cheating last night and asked an appeal court to throw the team out of the 2005 championship.

"The FIA asks the court to exclude the Lucky Strike BAR Honda team from the 2005 Formula One world championship and to fine the team at least one million euros ($1.29 million)," the International Automobile Federation (FIA) said in a dossier of evidence presented to a Paris appeal court hearing.
BAR's Jenson Button finished third in the San Marino Grand Prix on April 24, scoring the Honda-powered team's first points of the year.

The FIA is appealing against a decision by race stewards, who spent six hours scrutinising Button's car after the race.

The stewards upheld the result despite suspicions BAR competed with an underweight car and may have used a hidden, secondary fuel tank.

"The team set out deliberately to gain an illegitimate and unfair advantage over other teams, an act prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sports generally," the FIA said.

BAR, which has denied any wrongdoing, asked the court to dismiss the FIA appeal.

Its lawyer David Pannick QC said that such a sanction "would be manifestly disproportionate as would be any exclusion from future events".

BAR technical director Geoff Willis restated the team's position that it had done nothing wrong.

"At no time would I allow anybody in the team to do anything illegal, we have a common culture of integrity and fairness," he said.

A verdict is expected today.

For the second time in a matter of months, BAR and its young British driver must wait for a legal verdict that threatens to have a profound effect on their futures together.

BAR, a favourite for Sunday's GP in Barcelona, was confident it would be cleared by the facts.

Reuters

LUD02C
05-05-2005, 10:15 PM
This even made Channel 10 sport news, can you believe it?

^^v
05-05-2005, 10:52 PM
yeah not suprised..
its pretty big news...

JESPER
06-05-2005, 09:09 AM
Okay, not sayin they shouldnt be punished for any wrong doing, but on one hand you have them sayin that they have no money blah blah blah lets cut costs... now they are tryin to push one full team out...how much money would they lose with that team??

Or am I not knowing what im talking bout?? lol

Vivski
06-05-2005, 12:01 PM
If the entire team is banned, there will be a huge backlash.

Hondavirgin
06-05-2005, 12:33 PM
If the entire team is banned, there will be a huge backlash.

why would there be a backlash, they broke the rules, they need to be punished.....

I doubt BAR are short of a crust so a fine is going to be a bit irrelevant.

^^v
07-05-2005, 03:41 AM
Sixth paragraph down is interesting...



BAR Honda left fuming
Fry - 'Nothing can be done'
http://f1.racing-live.com/img/l3.gif
http://f1.racing-live.com/img/vide.gif


http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/imgactu/05/fry-barcelona-wri_050505_220x164.jpg
Fry raises the question as to other teams
using similar fuel systems.
BAR Honda announced here Friday that they have scrapped plans to appeal against their two-race ban after consultation with their lawyers overnight. The team were banned from this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix and the next race in Monaco after a court of appeal hearing in Paris concluded they had failed to comply with the regulations at the last race in San Marino.

Team boss Nick Fry had insisted they would do all they could to fight the ban but in a statement Friday morning the team said: "Having considered the complex legal framework, BAR has looked at all practical ways of immediately challenging the issue. Upon receiving the best legal advice, the conclusion is that nothing can be done. BAR has considered whether to pursue further action, but to challenge the governing body would not be in the best interests of the sport."

The team were accused of fielding their car underweight and were found guilty of running outside the Formula One regulations after a hearing at the International Court of Appeal in Paris on Wednesday.

They were delivered the punishment here Thursday and Fry admitted he was shocked by the decision because he believes the team's case put to the court in Paris made it clear they did nothing wrong.


The hearing centred around a second fuel tank, which was not fully emptied when the scrutineers asked for the car to be fully drained of fuel at the end of the San Marino race. Fry still insists the team are innocent.

"We know that the other teams have got a similar system because the fuel tank supplier who supplies us is the same as many of the teams. They have confirmed there's nothing unusual about our system. There have been rumours other people have been looking at their cars overall. This is a very draconian interpretation of the rules. I think it's made everyone look carefully at what their doing."

In a statement the team added: "The FIA court of appeal was unable to prove the team acted in bad faith so the team is unclear why there was the penalty. The team contests anything that could tarnish its reputation. BAR are so enraged with the decision that they have decided to publish their entire submission to the court of appeal on their official website later Friday afternoon."

They also confirmed that they will discuss the ramifications of the decision with their fellow teams and engine manufacturers on the Grand Prix grid and Fry added: "We are going to ensure we are completely transparent. During the course of the afternoon, we are posting everything from the court of appeal, all our witness statements, all our technical data (on our official website). Even though we are giving away some information to our competitors it's better that we do that to show everyone what we've done because we have nothing to hide."

The decision not to appeal means Briton Jenson Button and his Japanese team-mate Takuma Sato will both miss this weekend's race in Barcelona and the flagship Grand Prix in Monaco later on May 22. With their results cancelled from the last race in San Marino, where their infringement was discovered, neither driver has scored a point in this year's championship.

Source AFP

Kawasaki
07-05-2005, 08:41 AM
looks like fia's being a bunch o dogs

go BAR

LUD02C
07-05-2005, 09:28 AM
But no other team(s) have been lighter.
The rules are there, and BAR did break them you can't deny it.
They were under weight and no matter how many excuses you come up with, they did CHEAT.

I have been searching, but can't find a interview with Dave Richards on this.

pornstar
07-05-2005, 05:07 PM
jase thats an unfair statement. How can u say they cheated when even the fia and the court of appeal couldnt. They said that they used fuel as a ballast, but could not prove that the cars ran underweight, essentially, they couldnt say BAR cheated, but merely failed to seek clarity over whether or not that required 6kgs of pressurised fuel in the seperate tank amounted to ballast or could be classified as necessary to the car as a whoel and hence NOT ballast.

While they scathed and said that they lacked transparency, well cant u think of why theres no transparency over this? perhaps a lacking of want to show what they run in their cars?

LUD02C
08-05-2005, 09:16 AM
Yeh fair call pornstar, but the way I did look at it was this dude:

"FIA gave BAR-Honda 1 race suspension + fine, then BAR-Honda had the choice of appeal to try and prove there innocence again but didn't bother, so they knew they were guilty"

Thats the way I looked at it, but I do see what your saying mate.

pornstar
08-05-2005, 01:19 PM
Yeah, I know what it seems like, but sometimes its better to take the consequence because the cost of getting the right decision etc is too high.

Take for example, a court case for a speeding fine for which you actually are not speeding. The cost is way too high and the risk unacceptable if you should lose. I reckon thats one major factor BAR would have to think about. Costing 10 million euros for not being at the nexst 2 races is a huge cost already, if the legal costs of hiring QC's and court costs were involved I could only imagine.

LUD02C
08-05-2005, 03:51 PM
They said BAR will lose millions in sponsorship money, did anyone get a close figure on what they said?

Javed
08-05-2005, 04:47 PM
FIA can eat my arse.

LUD02C
10-05-2005, 03:39 PM
Ok, BAR-Honda have been found guilty.
Please refer to this thread for discussion of this topic.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19896

Thread closed.