B16a2 CTR internals upgrade

[shep9ky]

I am looking to upgrade my b16 in the next few months and wanted to start doing my research.
my budget is healthy but looking to cut costs where i can
What i am after is a rough estimate of how much it would cost for:
CTR cams + valve springs
CTR cam gears
CTR pistons
b16a head mild port and polish
and some sort of engine management system eg Hondata, Haltech etc

please any thoughts and ideas on different parts to replace ones already on the list would be appreciated
basically just after a nice all motor setup and not looking to go crazy or spend too much money on stuff that isnt going to get me anywhere

also anybody know if spoon stroker kits for the b16b work on the b16a?
seems to be pretty cheap for the parts you get

anyways guys feel free to drill me for any mistake cos im keen to learn

[shep9ky]

anyways "guys" feel free to drill me for any mistake cos im keen to learn

And girls ofcourse :thumbsup:

[TODA AU]

Use the following CTR parts.
Cams + valve springs + pistons + intake valves :thumbsup:

Use adjustable cam gears not CTR gears :thumbsup:
(They're are identical to what you have)

b16a head mild port and polish :thumbsup:
Additional wish list, Type R intake manifold & throttle.


Regarding Spoon 1.8L B16B kit.
This will not fit, it is simply a factory B18CR crank rods & pistons.
Your block is too short.
A TODA 1.8L kit to do the job will set you back $3500 (Landed - no more to pay)
Kit includes crank, rods, forged pistons, BE bearings pins, clips & rings.

[shep9ky]

Thanks mate
How much you recon im looking at for the ctr parts alone?
cam gears?
how much for mild port and polish?
+ labour
even a rough estimate so that i can have an idea of what they are worth before researching everything

will i need engine management system at the same time for sure or can it be a future addition to get more out of the mods later on?

hmmmm toda 1.8L kit would give me alot more power than any of these mods am i right?

[TODA AU]

Type R Valve Springs - $300
CTR camshafts (Pair) - $1000
CTR pistons +rings (81.25mm) - $600

Head porting - starts from $600 (Head already off car)
Labour to do the lot... Send me a PM...

You can get buy on your std ECU.
Obviously a programable ECU would be a huge advantage though.

Put up a wanted to buy post, so you can get some 2nd hand parts if you're on a tight budget.

[PhatSol]

Sorry to go off topic, but what CR do you end up with using the TODA stroker kit?

[**Ghost**]

but wot sorts of gains are we looking at here?

[shep9ky]

but wot sorts of gains are we looking at here?

Good question

[z3lda]

same power as b16b. cuz using the same internals. maybe a bit more if u get the stroker kit.

[shep9ky]

id be very hapy with b16b performance
plus quality headers intake and exhaust you would get a bit more i recon

[z3lda]

i wouldnt with the amount u'll spend.

[**Ghost**]

.... b16B = 134KW at fly i believe... so thats... lemme see... 16KW more than b16a..... now divide it up for drivetrain loss....so around approx 10-12 kw at wheel gain?

man thats less than like only 10% gain... for $1000+... sorry but thats just not worth it in my terms : (

[z3lda]

not 1000$+ more like 3-4k+

[shep9ky]

if you replaced the ctr cam with toda jun or crower the gains would be better i think

[z3lda]

but then u'll have to spend more.

[shep9ky]

is it true that you can just replce the intake cam with the ctr intake cam?
as i think the exhuast cam is the same

[ekslut]

you will actually end up with more power than a B16B in theory. Because you are using CTR pistons in a B16A, your compression will actually raise to above what a B16B is. Something around 11.0:1. Therefore more power. Has something to do with the different deck heights or somthing

[EG5]

b16b piston in a b16a block will require some custom job on the rods and piston, comp ration will be above 12 in a b16a block.

[wynode]

you will actually end up with more power than a B16B in theory. Because you are using CTR pistons in a B16A, your compression will actually raise to above what a B16B is. Something around 11.0:1. Therefore more power. Has something to do with the different deck heights or somthing

b16b is uses a b18c block (its just de-stroked)

EDIT: Ie the b16b and b18c have the same deck height.

[ProECU]

A TODA 1.8L kit to do the job will set you back $3500 (Landed - no more to pay)
Kit includes crank, rods, forged pistons, BE bearings pins, clips & rings.

id personally never stroke a b16 block to 1.8l . The bigger crank stroke & short rod combination would not complement high rpm!

[crx_16x]

comp ratio will be above 12 in a b16a block.

The following is a quote from Omniman from a post on Honda-tech.

stock b16a with ctr pistons
cyl vol. 398.6cc
head Gasket 2.8cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc big vol= 436.8
camber vol. 44cc small vol= 38.2 stock b16a=11.43
deck height .5mm+ 2.3cc


stock type-r motor with ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 488.3cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 39.2cc stock type-r=12.45
camber vol. 44cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 449.1cc

lsvtec with b16 head and ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 497.6cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 39.2cc stock lsvtec=12.7
camber vol. 44cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 458.4cc

lsvtec with gsr head and ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 495.6cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 37.2cc stock gsr/lsvtec=13.3
camber vol. 42cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 458.4cc stock gasket is .026in thick and has a volume of about 2.8cc's
b16 pr3 pistons, b18c type-r pistons and b16b ctr pistons all have a different compression height. the pr3 pistons have the smallest and the ctr pistons have the biggest. with type-r in the middle

[TODA AU]

if you replaced the ctr cam with toda jun or crower the gains would be better i think
This is an obvious conclusion.
If you are going to stretch to budget, be sure to get components known to work with the rest of the combination you intend to build.
Don't mix'n match, it can often spell disaster.

is it true that you can just replce the intake cam with the ctr intake cam?
as i think the exhuast cam is the same
Correct, the CTR intake cam is different to ITR
Both CTR & ITR exhaust cams are the same.
Your std camshafts are both smaller.

id personally never stroke a b16 block to 1.8l . The bigger crank stroke & short rod combination would not complement high rpm!
Even though it does work?
Re: High rpm? How high is high?
A stroked B16A with cams makes plenty of power to 9K.
Not only can it match the output of a B18C, it is capable of producing superior torque down low.
(This is of course on similarly modified & tuned engines with equal capacity.)
A B16A stroker kit does work & it's a viable capacity increase alternative for guys with B16A's rather than forking out for a std B18C & doing a swap.

[ProECU]

toda AU

have you ever calculated the rod length of a stroked B16A and hence the piston speeds at various rpm's (say 8.5k) and then compare it to every other honda B series?

not a wise choice of combination in my book

[TODA AU]

toda AU

have you ever calculated the rod length of a stroked B16A and hence the piston speeds at various rpm's (say 8.5k) and then compare it to every other honda B series?

not a wise choice of combination in my book

Rather than enter a bench racing debate over utopian engine design.
I will say that the piston speed is not as high as you might imagine due to the forged pistons included with the kit, being designed for this specific application. (The pin height is altered to improve rod ratio.)
For someone with an open cheque book, by all means swap straight to the B18C to increase capacity.
But for those not made of money & after good performance for dollar value or simply wish to keep their original engine. The TODA B16A 1.8L stroker kit works & it works rather well.
In that respect, the TODA kit is a cost effective alternative over swapping to B18C.
For a similar JUN 1.8L kit, you'd be looking at approx $5.8 ~ $6k

I understand you are entitled to your opinion & I respect that.

[ProECU]

yes, its purely discussion.

I wasnt aware the stroker kit moved the piston pin into the ring grooves.
Thats probably a 3mm gain in "effective" rod length.

Do you have the details of rod length? Im curious now :)

[**Ghost**]

can someone give me a straight answer to this simple question:

B16A + CTR CAMS/INTERNALS = BETTER THAN b16b or SAME as B16B or WORSE than b16B

thanks you

[BLKCRX]

B16A + CTR CAMS/INTERNALS = BETTER THAN b16b or SAME as B16B or WORSE than b16B


internals ? meh how can you define that ?

if u replace the crank pistons rods bearings rings, cams, springs, valves, port n polish the head to the same specs, intake manifold / exhaust manifold and then have the correct tune / correct b16b ECU then it might be the same as the b16b....hell with a tunable ECU it might be better..... but meh if u spendin that much money might as well go for none JDM parts aka High Comp aftermarket pistons, spec B or (stage 2 ) cams n all the other goodies either in skunk2 or Toda parts..

Regards James

[ProECU]

the B18 stroker kit would be tempting, however it all depends on the rod length for me.
i'll run some engine geometry calculations later on and revert back on the rod length in a B18 stroker.

[shep9ky]

woah glad to see ive started a spirited debate
i think its all good cos we are all learning

thanks guys for replying, i was thinking it that it may be more cost effective to get a b18c-r bottom end i can imagine it would comparable in price to the stroker kit
only thing is it would very hard to find

anyone please correct me if i'm wrong!!

the b16a head is the same head as the itr and ctr minus the cams and a mild port an polish.

Someone must have been in the same situation as i am now
maybe if people post what they think would be the most cost effective way
keeping in mind turbo is out of the question

[BLKCRX]

why is turbo out of the question ?


Regards James

[TODA AU]

yes, its purely discussion.

I wasnt aware the stroker kit moved the piston pin into the ring grooves.
Thats probably a 3mm gain in "effective" rod length.

Do you have the details of rod length? Im curious now :)
Though I don't have any actual rod length details at hand,
I can tell you is the rods are modified factory B16A units. (134mm length, less approx 0.5mm)
The crankshaft is a modified B18C unit. I recall the Rod ratio being around 1.53
The forged pistons use a single spl compression ring + an oil scraper ring pack.
The gudgeon pin height is approx 5mm higher than normal in the piston.
Kit comes balanced & ready to assemble, BE bearings are included. Clearence has been adjusted. Piston to bore clearence is same as stock. (No piston slap)
Though not designed to exeed 9k rpm, it's enough to allow a humble B16A make some serious grunt.

can someone give me a straight answer to this simple question:
B16A + CTR CAMS/INTERNALS = BETTER THAN b16b or SAME as B16B or WORSE than b16B
thanks you
To put the 2 engines on par with each other,
You need the following parts CTR parts for your B16A.
CTR cams, intake valves, valve springs, lost motion assemblies, intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust manifold, Mild port to std B16A cylinder head.
Use SPOON 0.45mm head gasket to increase CR to 10.8:1
Using a programable aftermarket ECU should easily put you in front of the std B16B.
Should you increase compression beyond 11.0:1 or increase capacity, you will make more power than the B16B.
Seriously though, I wrote about this sort of thing in the bang for bucks post.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19495 (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19495)
Don't worry about what a B16B has got or if you're better.
Just build what you can as best you can within your budget & always work to a plan, so oneday you acheive a set goal.

[TODA AU]

why is turbo out of the question ?
Regards James

Probably because he doesn't want to afford one...
(Insurance is the biggest killer)

[shep9ky]

Probably because he doesn't want to afford one...
(Insurance is the biggest killer)

Exactly
But it would be fun to put together a turbo vtec over a long period of time
that way the expense would be spread out and i would be over 25 so the insurance wont kill me.......or the car for that matter!!!

[CRXONE]

I know next to nothing about engines but if you are going to replace the internal parts and only get 10-25kW @ $4000 why not get turbo internals and turbo gear @ $8000 and get 70+kW :confused:

I guess it comes down to reliability factors.