Drift / Understeer / Oversteer Definitions?

[nEUROtic]

Ok just need some clarification on 2 different views here of the following condtions / techniques.

My view was

Understeer - Exceeding the grip of the front wheels more prone to occur in front wheel drive cars due to the fact that they are applying power and steering to the wheel at the same time, and the grip levels are more easily reached. Charecterised by the front sliding and the car not turning as hard as it should. In a right hand corner u end up in the left wall. Induced by acceleration. Correct by hitting the brakes, or letting off the accelerator

Oversteer - Exceeding the limits of the rear wheels. Induced by acceleration. Charecterised by the rear end stepping out. Also know as a power slide as you floor the accelerator to indude the slide. Correct by getting off the gas. Braking shifts the weight to the front, lessening the grip of the back further and should be avoided (spin out) (Intial D - lame members of the speedsters)

Drift - Exceeding the limits of the 4 wheels at the same time. Induced by braking, then by using a combination of accelerator and countersteering to control the slide. Steering wheel is used to counter the slide, hence in a right hand corner you may end up steering left to counter. The rear wheels shouldnt be the only ones that smoke as the car is moving genuinely sideways, as opposed to a "powerslide" (see above) which smokes the rear wheels to slide the ass :) (Initial D Style - This is takumis technique)

Can anyone verify correct this? Opposing view coming up !

Thanks a lot!

[Slugoid]

From my point of view, drifting is exceeding the limits of rear wheels only, cos if front wheels loose traction, there would be no control. Right hand corner, countersteer left to face wheels following the road, like this.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/slugoid/drift.jpg

See smoke coming out of rear and not the front? Oh, that's that's Tsuchiya in the car so I think that's a real drift from the drift king himself :)

[aozora]

Understeer is not limited to acceleration. You can go too fast into the corner, turn without applying the accelerator and still understeer.

Same with Oversteer, it's not limited to acceleration, if you pull the hand brake and lock the rears, the momentary loss of traction can make you oversteer (more then likely though you have to shift the weight). Even the handbrake isn't needed, in a FWD car if you go too fast into a corner and are constantly shifting the weight, if you reach a state where alot of your weight has shifted to the front you can perform lift off oversteer. Put macca's trays under the rear... more oversteer :P
HARD braking in the middle of oversteer isn't recommended... recovering from oversteer is a mix of steering input and accelerator control mainly though. Lifting too suddenly off the accelerator can (depending) lock the rear LSD and cause the rear to swing the other way (fishiesssss). You have to release it gently, counter steer gradually and not too quickly... then gradually brake... it's hard to put into words, it's more of a thing you have to practise.

I take it you've never driven a rear wheel drive? Take a go-kart for example, there isn't enough power to really lose traction intentionally but to aid a power slide where you slide the kart to achieve a angle that is best for corner exit.
Same thing for cars, drift is initiated by alot of different things but alot of them require loss of rear traction (with the exception of 4WD drift which even I'm not sure about but I think it has alot to do with LSD locking the rears, the front very briefly... I dunno :P). Front tyre traction is absolutely necessary in order to perform a proper drift. And no, power sliding is not drifting, any monkey in a FWD can do that... but that doesn't mean to say FWD cars can't drift :)

I hope that clears it up a bit...
Referring to Initial D isn't a good idea.... just drive damnit :P

[nEUROtic]

Understeer is not limited to acceleration. You can go too fast into the corner, turn without applying the accelerator and still understeer.

Yes.


Same with Oversteer, it's not limited to acceleration, if you pull the hand brake and lock the rears, the momentary loss of traction can make you oversteer (more then likely though you have to shift the weight).


Yeh, forgot to add this. But yes again.



I take it you've never driven a rear wheel drive? Take a go-kart for example, there isn't enough power to really lose traction intentionally but to aid a power slide where you slide the kart to achieve a angle that is best for corner exit.

Isnt this about shifting the(your) weight? Hence, drift, not using accelerator to initiate drift?



Same thing for cars, drift is initiated by alot of different things but alot of them require loss of rear traction Front tyre traction is absolutely necessary in order to perform a proper drift.

So Drifting = losing rear wheel traction, maintain front tyre. Isn't this just oversteer?



And no, power sliding is not drifting.

I agree, but how do they differ. Above u just said drift = no rear traction. To me that is oversteer.



Sorry to be picky! I just wanna know :)

[aozora]

Isnt this about shifting the(your) weight? Hence, drift, not using accelerator to initiate drift?

Not really? A Go-Kart has pretty much no suspension, so without springs and shocks, how does weight shift? Unless you lean ahha.
Power sliding simply is "dragging" your tyres along (not just limited to 2) while sideways using momentum to slide along.



So Drifting = losing rear wheel traction, maintain front tyre. Isn't this just oversteer?

Oversteer is part of drifting :) You can still oversteer and control it... there's even a drift technique, power oversteer, where alot of crappy drivers (supposedly) just use the power of the car to oversteer and "drift" out of the corner but usually not on corner entry. Die hard drift fans don't really like it :p



I agree, but how do they differ. Above u just said drift = no rear traction. To me that is oversteer.

Hmm, well better put, there is VERY limited traction. Power sliding has very limited control as you're relying on the momentum to pull you through the slide. Drifting maintains front tyre traction, while using oversteer to initiate the drift... and holding the drift consists of oversteering slightly, maintaining traction... etc. As soon as you lose traction of the front tyres during drifting I suppose you could classify it as power sliding?



Sorry to be picky! I just wanna know :)
Np :)

[Slugoid]

Oversteer and understeer is just terms to describe how the car is behaving. Oversteer = loss of rear traction, understeer = loss of front traction. Simple as that.

Drifting and powerslide are techniques. Drifting does involve oversteer, but you can't say you've drifted when you've experienced oversteer. Drifting is more of a controlled and sustained oversteer, cos if you don't control an oversteer, you'll spin out, or just slide. Powerslide is just like the name suggest. It's not controlled and you're just sliding with all 4 wheels loosing traction. Looks similar to a drift but it's not, mainly because it's you're not 100% in control with a powerslide.

[Vivski]

You dont recessarily need the front wheels to maintain traction to control a drift. Watch an EVO drifting. Love watching rally cars!
http://www.carenthusiast.com/video/mitsubishi_lancerevo2wrc_01.mpeg (1.8MB)

[tegstar83]

Oversteer and understeer is just terms to describe how the car is behaving. Oversteer = loss of rear traction, understeer = loss of front traction. Simple as that.

No not as simple as that! U dont need to loose traction on ur front wheels to over steer, u can put power down and run wide it dosnt mean that ur front wheels are spinning.
Understeer is when ur car ploughs on straight instead of turning in the desired direction.

[Slugoid]

Err, the reason why you're ploughing straight is that you don't have front wheel traction. If there was traction, the front wheels will guide the car round the corner. Simple drawing.

/ /

| |

Car is going straight, you want to turn right (hence front wheel facing the right) but the car is still heading stright forward. That's understeer, cos there's no traction in the front. Wheels spinning is another form of "traction loss".

[nEUROtic]

Yeah understeer wasnt my main concern, I agree with everyone on that. It was drift vs oversteer im really trying to get my head around. I agree with vivski, 4 wheels are sliding sideways.



power oversteer, where alot of crappy drivers (supposedly) just use the power of the car to oversteer and "drift" out of the corner but usually not on corner entry. Die hard drift fans don't really like it


How can you be drifting at corner entry without using the brakes to initiate drift? This was one of my key points. I am refering to BRAKING drift. Upsetting the balance of the car by braking while hard steering to get drift on all four wheels. Acceleration drift is just a powerslide, coz u use POWER to get the ass out.

Any other opinions??

[bennjamin]

obviously everyone here has seen "DRIFT BIBLE" :)

But...we all own FWD's ?

[nEUROtic]

I haven't seen drift bible :) Hence my dilemma

[SPEEDCORE]

How can you be drifting at corner entry without using the brakes to initiate drift?

I can think of two ways stright off the bat. 1st Scandinavian Flick.... 2nd By getting off the accelerator (best doing it abruptly) and steering input at the same time.... your ass will come around.


Benj: "But...we all own FWD's ?"

<--------------------- Not all of us.

[nEUROtic]

Ok lets get some conclusive definitions up then so i can correct my wrongness

[egSi]

http://www.fdori-style.com/

lol

[wynode]

When on the track......if I push hard around a corner....the back slides out a bit and I have to countersteer.

Am I drifting in my FWD?

[Vivski]

Is ass sliding, "drifting"? :p

[wynode]

Well when drifinting.....the rear loses traction yes? ;)

[nEUROtic]

Bah
<------------ More Confused :P

[Phantasm]

There are many techniques of drifting, feign, ebrake, lift off, power over....
All of them however involve the car being controlled in sideways slide.
The real wheels must lose traction for this to occur, however the fornt dont.. but can!
its all still drifting...

[aozora]

Yeah understeer wasnt my main concern, I agree with everyone on that. It was drift vs oversteer im really trying to get my head around. I agree with vivski, 4 wheels are sliding sideways.



How can you be drifting at corner entry without using the brakes to initiate drift? This was one of my key points. I am refering to BRAKING drift. Upsetting the balance of the car by braking while hard steering to get drift on all four wheels. Acceleration drift is just a powerslide, coz u use POWER to get the ass out.

Any other opinions??

Pre-apex drift... feint (transfer weight), lock the rear wheels, swing the ass around, counter steer into the corner.. then throttle and steering control?
Or lift off oversteer... like I explained before...

Braking with the handbrake or front?
You're not listening... just because it has the word POWER in it, doesn't mean it relates to accelerating. Explain what power oversteer is then? I thought you just wanted to learn? Not try and prove that you're right in the first place?

A 4WD drift I don't have a very good idea about, but generally when talking about drift, I'd assume RWD. A 4WD drift I think would involve some power sliding at first and then powering out using the LSDs to help the car out of the corner... but I'm really not sure on that.

And yes I drive a RWD :)

[wynode]

There are many techniques of drifting, feign, ebrake, lift off, power over....
All of them however involve the car being controlled in sideways slide.
The real wheels must lose traction for this to occur, however the fornt dont.. but can!
its all still drifting...

That's the key to it!

[nEUROtic]

So any extended oversteer = drift, regardless of how that oversteer is initiated or sustained??

[tegstar83]

Err, the reason why you're ploughing straight is that you don't have front wheel traction. If there was traction, the front wheels will guide the car round the corner. Simple drawing.

/ /

| |

Car is going straight, you want to turn right (hence front wheel facing the right) but the car is still heading stright forward. That's understeer, cos there's no traction in the front. Wheels spinning is another form of "traction loss".

mater u are so wrong there u dont and I F*CKN repeat u dont need to loose traction to understeer u can come out of a corner and step on it and ur car will PULL out wide not break traction FUK what have u been driving??
Do u even race ur car on track/twisties?? U dont know shit :thumbdwn:

[bennjamin]

Guys - chill. Keep the negative comments to PM or just not at all.



Dosent ANY car ( 4wd , awd , fwd , rwd) pull wide due to the cornering speed inertia ? ( as in , will bias towards the edge under acceleration before the apex)

Only trick diffs frotn or rear can really conter this action as they can change the power application to the wheels entirely...

Anyone here understand the true dynamics ? Where's Wojtek when you need him.

[SPEEDCORE]

Pre-apex drift... feint (transfer weight), lock the rear wheels, swing the ass around, counter steer into the corner.. then throttle and steering control?
Or lift off oversteer... like I explained before...

Sorry but a Scandinavian flick does not involve locking the rear wheels. :thumbdwn:


And what's with all the American terminology you guys are using. :thumbdwn:

[[R]]

lol.. man too many keyboard warriors in this thread.

i understand what you're saying ben (aozora).. hehe

[SPEEDCORE]

']i understand what you're saying ben (aozora).. hehe

So you agree that a scandinavian flick (or as you guys are calling it feint drift) involves the locking of the rear tyres?

Give me a break! :rolleyes:

[[R]]

So you agree that a scandinavian flick (or as you guys are calling it feint drift) involves the locking of the rear tyres?

Give me a break! :rolleyes:

another one.. sheesh.

all i said was i understand what he's trying to say. mate give yourself a break..

obviously ppl are referring to all the f**king terms from drift bible.

geez laweez... who gives a toot what the correct "term" is..

you're talking about understeer/oversteer and drift definitions.

so each would have their own interpretation. isn't that why the dude started the thread?

to get a better understanding.... now let the people post and see what comes about.

[/end rant]

[SPEEDCORE]

'] obviously ppl are referring to all the f**king terms from drift bible.


I agree people are very much like Ordell Robbie. ;)

I read your post the wrong way [R]..... forgive me. However labeling me a keyboard warrior is not nessecary when I know perfectly well what I am talking about and trying to inform others.

Anyway lets leave that BS behind now....."aozora" although making very valid points about other areas of drifting, was incorrect about the "locking of tyres" in a scandinavian flick/ feint drift. Its probablt just me but I personally think it was a point that needed to be clarified, in order for those seeking infomation to be informed.

[ginganggooly]

mater u are so wrong there u dont and I F*CKN repeat u dont need to loose traction to understeer u can come out of a corner and step on it and ur car will PULL out wide not break traction FUK what have u been driving??
Do u even race ur car on track/twisties?? U dont know shit :thumbdwn:

when the car pushes wide, it technically is due to a loss of grip by the front tyres. so, i'd say you should sit down and think very carefully before telling people they "don't know shit". of course, if you actually know this person and you're just taking the piss, i wholeheartedly appologise ;)

*understeer is when the driver is scared, oversteer is when the passenger is scared.

[aaronng]

There are a few kinds of over and understeer. Not all of them require you to break the traction of the wheels. Older car suspensions are able only to cope with certain movements. Older American muscle cars for example were set up such that they were difficult to turn, hence, they understeered. If the suspension setup is not done properly, it is possible for the car to turn excessively without losing traction, hence oversteering.

My definition of under/oversteering: When the tractive force of the car through the tyres to the road does not exceed the inertia of the car while moving. If you can't overcome inertia, you can't change the direction of the car to your desire. Understeering is when the car's inertia is going straight, while oversteering is when the car has rotational inertia and it is more than the tractive force through the tyres.

Also, my understanding of a real drift (not powersliding), is that when the car is oversteering, you purposely induce understeering so that the car doesn't turn too much into the inside, and instead understeer following the road direction. When you drive normally and you understeer, your car goes to the outside when you are in the turn. But if you are oversteering and cause understeer, you follow the road instead since you are already pointing inside because of the oversteer.

[tegstar83]

My definition of under/oversteering: When the tractive force of the car through the tyres to the road does not exceed the inertia of the car while moving. If you can't overcome inertia, you can't change the direction of the car to your desire. Understeering is when the car's inertia is going straight, while oversteering is when the car has rotational inertia and it is more than the tractive force through the tyres.


:thumbsup: very well put there mate. Thats a very good explanation of how u dont need to loose traction to induce under steer :thumbsup:

[siba]

dudes simple drift analysis: when car is moving turn left then right back of the car flicks around whilst moving in a forward motion - rwd -rear wheels move the car and the front wheels direct wich direction the car goes in and the angle. fwd is hard to drift because the rear is ment for the movement and the front the steering so its pretty hard to drift with fwd unless its wet i guess. awd- all wheels spin so u have 2 be the worlds best drifter to drift these types of cars correct me if i am wrong!!




yeeeah check it im a member now!!

[Boost]

understeer, oversteer....does it really matter guys?.. as long as we all can handle our cars when the situation occurs... thats all that matters....

Win: Its fun isnt it... when the rear end comes out and ur sliding...:D

[aozora]

Thx Beej ;)

I just read this thread after so long haha... but yer you don't need to lock the rears to do it, it's just one way of doing it. Just trying to help but meh... some people don't like it I guess...