Need Honda expert on Engine [Archive]

EKIV

27-01-2004, 05:31 PM

Hi ,
I am runing a B16A2 on EK4 now.
was thinking to put B18C5 or B20B or K20A.
most likely will go for B18C5 , as my mugen computer can fit.
anyone try to put B20B block b4 ? if go for B20B, will keep the B16a2 head.
if put b18c5 , then will give up the whole B16a2 engine ..
which way is safer and cheaper and better ?

thanks.

McChook

27-01-2004, 05:48 PM

well, a K20 engine spins the worng way, so drop that idea.

Personally, I'd go B20B/16A head. Should really be cheaper. Since its still a honda engine, it is no less reliable than any other honda engine.

I am sure someone has a better idea of prices, but B18C5s are a bit over pircied.

OLM-02R

27-01-2004, 07:29 PM

have u found out how much would the b18c7 fitted cost ??? ;)

LatinoHatchCrap

27-01-2004, 08:44 PM

before you begin to narrow your choices you should find someone who has the expertise and is willing to do a crvtec (unless you're doin it yourself). I would be happy with a ITR swap; its bolt on, you're already obdII, and you're already VTEC...the other two choices dont offer much more for the effort thats gona be required on your part.

As an example you realise that just slapping the head stock on the b20 block its not good enough...the bottom end needs to be reinforced to support tyhe high revving characteristics of the b16a...that means at least looking into arp rod bolts and head studs, balancing the crank and shotpeening and balancing the rods as well. Then, depending on how much power you wanna put down new cams, cam gears and valve train is a must. Then tuning is your friend with nothing less than a standalone like hondata that will alow ignition, fuel and cam timing.

IMO do plenty of research and you'll be fine :)

dcii_sir

27-01-2004, 09:57 PM

Hey LatinoHatchCrap.. Any chance you can blow up your avatar?? I cant see much from the small pic... :D

vti-2

27-01-2004, 09:59 PM

Hey LatinoHatchCrap.. Any chance you can blow up your avatar?? I cant see much from the small pic... :D

As long as it stays off the forum. I'm sure i don't need to remind you guys that posting pornographic images on the forum can have you banned.

Let's keep this on topic. thanks.

pornstar

27-01-2004, 10:32 PM

[As an example you realise that just slapping the head stock on the b20 block its not good enough...the bottom end needs to be reinforced to support tyhe high revving characteristics of the b16a...that means at least looking into arp rod bolts and head studs, balancing the crank and shotpeening and balancing the rods as well. Then, depending on how much power you wanna put down new cams, cam gears and valve train is a must. Then tuning is your friend with nothing less than a standalone like hondata that will alow ignition, fuel and cam timing. ]

I guess u read this info up? I dont see how the headstuds, rod bolts is going to make ur bottom end stronger, expecially since all the crvtecs that i know of in RL suffer from cracked sleeves and hair line cracks in the block, of which u didnt even mention. Nothing less than a standalone? tell me u read that too? I got a friend who runs a unichip on his crvtec conversion, it works fine. Its only a piggy back, so i dont know where u got that from either.

Dont believe everything u read man, i hope i dont offend u, but theres a big difference between reading what is said over the net, as opposed to seeing RL results and consequences.

Aight back to my hole

EKIV

27-01-2004, 10:50 PM

I ask around today , the cheapest B18C5 engine package was AUD5000.
come with the ECU , Gearbox , Radiator etc.
and the B20B block cost 1000 , however, consider the techique of the melbourne mechanics , really a risk to go for the conversion. as I had heard lots of story abt the B20 block and b16head . , the engine really cannot last for long. also , need to get the head gasket and modify the bottom end etc. end up with another 1-2 K .. Hence , another 2K for a b18c seems to be a safer way. Actually, anyone here who had done the b20b/16 vtec b4 ? if so , I really appreciate if you can show me the car and let me feel how fast is it first .. cheers
alain

Nuttz

28-01-2004, 12:06 AM

go the b18cR less head aches in the end :)

tanghy

28-01-2004, 12:09 AM

get the k20,be the first in australia to do it
has been done and can be done in US since last year

you have to put both engine + box into the car

dno't listen to all those spin the wrong way bullshit

A'PEXi

28-01-2004, 12:48 AM

k20 would be much more expensive than b18, but can be done. overall reliability/cost and more power over the b16 u have now, b18 is the way to go :D

DynoDave

28-01-2004, 06:53 AM

ah789454

28-01-2004, 08:20 PM

b18c5 $8000 supply and fitted from good performance in yenora. (the owner once workd for hannys)

LatinoHatchCrap

28-01-2004, 09:18 PM

*I dont see how the headstuds, rod bolts is going to make ur bottom end stronger, expecially since all the crvtecs that i know of in RL suffer from cracked sleeves and hair line cracks in the block, of which u didnt even mention*
Let me ask you one question: is the b20 block designed to be a high revving bottom end? The answer itself should give you an idea why reinforcement is necessary. Anyway in all cases it is better to overbuild as a way of insurance. These are VTEC heads on non VTEC bottom ends were talking about right! The craked sleeves are a child of poor tuning with higher than stock c/r, my bad for missing that point. Some people will argue the opposite though, so its up to alan to choose what he would prefer to do in this situation.

*Nothing less than a standalone? tell me u read that too? I got a friend who runs a unichip on his crvtec conversion, it works fine. Its only a piggy back, so i dont know where u got that from either.*
You can't go anywhere with a chipped ecu if your aiming more hp, because then you gotta bump up the fuel. Hondata has datalogging, WideBand Tuning, three stage rev limiter for drag launch, full throttle shift, the list is endless.
If I could have it my way and had the cash I would get Motec, however if you are comparing a chipped ecu to Hondata, well then you are comparing apples to oranges.

*Dont believe everything u read man, i hope i dont offend u, but theres a big difference between reading what is said over the net, as opposed to seeing RL results and consequences.*
no offence taken mate! we're all here to learn and your points are valid and much appreciated by me and everyne here I reckon.

*Aight back to my hole*
me 2 :|

DynoDave

28-01-2004, 09:53 PM

Yes the sleeve's are the weakest point of the CRV block but if it is tuned correctly they are fine I would not want to push them anymore than ALLMTR did as his combo ran purfect and his ET's and MPH showed that and I have only seen 1 other non-turbo VTEC engine make more power than ALLMTR's B20 made and that was a 84mm bored B18C race engine.
Regards Dyno Dave

Setanta

28-01-2004, 10:13 PM

Damn Dave - you beat me to it - and before people start talking about being the first to drop a K20 in - ALLMTR is dropping a K24 into a '84 hatch so you'r a bit behind in terms of "firsts" :P

DynoDave

29-01-2004, 06:20 AM

ALLMTR will be the first in this country to do a Kseries conversion and I can not wait till the little red rocket hits the track again.

Setanta

29-01-2004, 06:38 AM

Whoops - my post was aimed at all the "first" posts, not you Dave - sorry if it came out that way :)

pornstar

29-01-2004, 09:26 AM

You guys read to much bullshit ALLMTR's B20B only ran ARP rod bolts other than that the bottom end was STD and using a ported B16A head which he did himself,a set of custom headers that he made himself,a set of Toda Spec-A cams and Type-R valve springs and a large plenum intake it made 122kw's at 8500rpm. :D

Im willing to take a bet that his car isnt driven daily :P Cos the daily driven ones that ive seen crack at the sleeves and have hair line cracks in the block! But i guess every motor is different?

DynoDave

29-01-2004, 11:47 AM

So pornstar what your trying to tell me is a daily driven B20B VTEC gets a harder time than one that is raced I think that I had better go and do more research into engine's then because you must now more than anyone else.The only thing that splits the sleeve's in these engines is POOLY tuned why do you think I would not run Tinkerbells B20B Vtec up on the dyno day because it was to LEAN and it would have hurt the engine.
And the only other thing is a driver will just jump in and rev his engine cold but that will wreck just about any engine.
Regards Dyno Dave

ALLMTR

29-01-2004, 02:06 PM

You guys read to much bullshit ALLMTR's B20B only ran ARP rod bolts other than that the bottom end was STD and using a ported B16A head which he did himself,a set of custom headers that he made himself,a set of Toda Spec-A cams and Type-R valve springs and a large plenum intake it made 122kw's at 8500rpm. :D

Im willing to take a bet that his car isnt driven daily :P

Your wager is accepted. Up until yesterday ALLMTR was my only car. How much were we betting anyway.........

pornstar

29-01-2004, 04:11 PM

well then im wrong, and my workmanship is poor. sorry to bother u dynodave and chuck, ill be sure to contact u about getting a frank done for my future friends cars

pornstar

29-01-2004, 04:20 PM

oh btw Dyno dave, i know that u said poor tuning owns ur car, well i agree it does. But in the above post u said that u didnt allow tinker to run, does that mean run on the dyno at all? or what?

cos tinker has dyno numbers for the day.

Setanta

29-01-2004, 05:21 PM

pornstar: quit while you are behind :? Better to accept the facts graciously :) ALLMTR's car is a daily driver - quite a few of us have seen it there. I've followed US CRVTECS and I was as sceptial of the build as you - but 2 years on and the 3 that I know of are still running strong with no issues - in ED hatches that run as daily-drivers and strip monsters.

In response to your last post of

But in the above post u said that u didnt allow tinker to run, does that mean run on the dyno at all? or what?
cos tinker has dyno numbers for the day.

in that thread, Tinkerbell stated:

tinkerbell..............DA9.............96.7.....B 20VTEC (not full dyno run - only taken to 6000rpm, too lean)

LatinoHatchCrap

29-01-2004, 08:14 PM

oh btw Dyno dave, i know that u said poor tuning owns ur car, well i agree it does.
hold on! page 1 you were saying that an off-the-shelf chip is capable of PROPERLY tuning a crvtec when in fact it'll only make the motors' life shorter; do you not agree with this? Will you not agree that Hondata is capable (with the proper tuning) of tuning this setup much better than a chipped ECU? Im very interested to know from your experience as well as Im eager to learn (not being sarcastic) :)

pornstar

29-01-2004, 09:56 PM

Proper tuning doesnt mean what tools ur using Latino. Its the tuner who tunes the equipment. For example, if u know that a motor is running lean say at 16:1 A/F ratio, for arguments sake, then leaving it at that while its pinging would be ignorable and poor tuning. Even if u had a motec, u could blow ur engine if the tuning is not done properly.

Setanta, Im not being sarcastic etc, i merely asked a question so what am i quitting behind about? I saw these 2 CRVTEC conversions have cracks appear in the block, and one the sleeves were abosultely scored. Yes Chucks motor worked, but having said that I already acknowledged that I was incorrect about it being a daily driver. I dont doubt ALLMTR the car or the engine, but from the CRVTECS that I've seen done, the sleeves and block were qeak. One thing I should have asked is which B20 bottom end the ALLMTR civic is running, since both the prelude bottom end and the CRV bottom end can be used.

I've never professed to know it all, and Im sorry if I came across like that, but if ur willing to share ur knowledge id only be too happy to learn. I've been down the NA path but its costly and it didnt net me the times that I was happy with. I've pm'ed chuck a few times before about some advice, and I dont doubt what he knows.

Anyways, think of me as what u will but i am only trying to help by letting people know of my own experiences. I apologise if I crossed the border.

DynoDave

29-01-2004, 11:04 PM

I was a young guy that used to piss people off because I asked too many questions but that was 25 years ago so pornstar you are not bothering me at all the only reason I joined the forums was to read what is said and maybe to give some of my knowledge to you all but when I see stuff posted that I have tried and tested and know what works and what does not only because something was missed to save a dollar or get it going faster so they can drive it to work the next day then I'm bothered.Now that is why I have been thinking about a car for myself since I met ALLMTR 18 months ago because we both share the same passion about N/A powered cars so I am taking over where he left off with the B20B Vtec engine out of his civic and beleave me it will make alot more power very soon.
Regards Dyno Dave

pornstar

29-01-2004, 11:24 PM

yeah i know dynodave, but think u can work on da grammer abit? fullstopsd and punctuation really helps in reading...

but can u tell me if chucks motor for the b20 si the prelude b20 or the crv b20? cos i understand that there is differences in the motors. The CRVTECS that we did were not professional mechanics, so i dont doubt we probably made a mistake. But its just that it seemed like u were having a go at me as if i had said i knew everything. I lonly mentioned the 2 cars that we did.

anyways i dont really care, as isaid think of me as what u will, but im a person that works from home, helps with motors building and tearing etc etc, all for free, all for the sport and hobby of it. Thast why i told people the things i did and what i didnt do, wrong or right, its just experiences of what i know.

LatinoHatchCrap

02-02-2004, 10:10 AM

pornstar

02-02-2004, 12:45 PM

OK Latino, in my Experience, and it might not be the case for what everyone says, I'll tell you what i think.

The ability to control the engine and other running conditions is ultimately the ability of the ECU. The piggy backs merely act as intercepters, thus the external parameters that are inherent in the engine are retained, and it merely Fools those sensor signals before it reaches the Factory ECU.

If the modifications to your engine dont need you to control anything outside of those parameters, then a piggyback can be used and be used reliably. Granted that it wont be as good of a tuning tool, ie fuel economy in certain cases due to limited RPM tuning, Ignition mapping in certain piggybacks if at all, the list goes on. But if u can get something to work in those parameters then yes a piggyback can be used.

The reason that the unichip was used in the above conversions that we did was that the owner did not have the funs for a full computer like the Autronic or Motec. So to get it running and reliable, we used a unichip. Fuel economy is not the best, the unichip tuning points are not that good, and ignition control is not that good, but its enough to get it running and working fine. After more mods the owner intends to change to a full Autronic SMC.

I hope that helps u in ur ecu choice... PErhaps DynoDave or Chuck can better help you with NA tips.

poid

02-02-2004, 01:43 PM

thanks for your reply pornstar but it seems to me that you're just stating the obvious with your reply to my question above; please note that I worte PROPER TUNING making it clear that if Hondata or a chipped ECU are both used and tuned (on a high compression motor) PROPERLY BY A PROFFESIONAL then which device will give the more benefits?

thanks

You do realise though that Hondata is simply a chipped ECU, ie a socket added to the standard ECU, with a new ROM burnt to en EEPROM chip. Just like those "Mugen" chips you can buy on eBay, except properly tuned for each application.

So a chipped ECU if tuned the same can basically give identical performance. Even launch control, full throttle shifting and the like. Real time programmability is just about ready as well using freely available editors.

If you are talking about things like Unichip though (rather than saying chipped ECU, interceptor or piggyback is the right terminology), then as pornstar said such an interceptor is limited by its tuning resolution etc and there will be compromises. But it can still run a setup reliably as long as the tuner is half-decent

tinkerbell

02-02-2004, 03:57 PM

great thread guys ???

my B20VTEC has been going for over 25'000km - i built it myself in my garage (then chuck built his!)

redlined daily...

only has ARP rod bolts and headstuds... stock crank, rods, pistons (reliefs enlarged)

oh - and STOCK ecu with V-AFC,

making 109kW (3kW less than the most powerful K series R at the dyno day)

it would make a shitload more if it had a proper programable ecu too...

pornstar

02-02-2004, 04:01 PM

tinker, is urs the prelude or the crv bottom end?

McChook

02-02-2004, 04:03 PM

CRV
isn;t it??
thats what dad told me.. I didn't think an old skool B20A would fit the B16 heads... i might be wrong though

tinkerbell

02-02-2004, 04:07 PM

NO-ONE uses prelude bottom ends pornstar...

only crazy japs... but then it is only the big crank they use, not the block...

McChook

02-02-2004, 04:36 PM

NO-ONE uses prelude bottom ends pornstar...

only crazy japs... but then it is only the big crank they use, not the block...

I think he meant the B20A block from the 2nd (JDM ONLY) and 3rd gen preludes...

DynoDave

02-02-2004, 11:06 PM

tinkerbell

03-02-2004, 08:41 AM

McChook

03-02-2004, 09:42 AM

H22... bugger, i dunno now, does it matter??

tinkerbell

03-02-2004, 09:47 AM

as long as we are all on the same page dude...

FYI - using the prelude 95mm stroke crank in a B20B block will yeild a 2106cc displacement

also - using this crank in a B20B block bored (and re-sleeved) to 86mm yeilds a 2207cc block...

hmmm, torquey...

McChook

03-02-2004, 10:11 AM

Upgrade time.. .. has it been done in Australia yet??
are you even considering those options?

tinkerbell

03-02-2004, 11:30 AM

it is only for teh hardcore...

too easy to put a rod thru the block at high rpm...

only done by crazy japs...

(not even USA freaks)

pornstar

03-02-2004, 11:43 AM

McChook

03-02-2004, 12:47 PM

it is only for teh hardcore...

too easy to put a rod thru the block at high rpm...

only done by crazy japs...

(not even USA freaks)

yeah, i guess so.. still would be awesome...
I think we need to import some crazy japanese so we can see this sort of thing

Setanta

03-02-2004, 04:18 PM

IMHO, Id rather just use the money spent on these head/block buildups on a complete H22a conversion using the special mounting made for h22a into b series or d series.

alot less headaches and u know its a reliable motor right out, cos honda made it that way.

H22As weigh a ton compared to the B series - thats why they are really put in cars designed for straight line. It ruins the balance of the car, particularly in cornering.

CRVTEC fits into 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th gen Civics and I know a H22A wont go into a 3G or 4G without cutting out engine bay and crossmembers.

The CRVTEC is a no-brainer :)

tinkerbell

03-02-2004, 04:24 PM

McChook

03-02-2004, 04:28 PM

damn straight

The one thing I still remian to hate is civic/crx/integra turbos. Incredible, thats the point where the car is no longer a honda...

ckkl

10-02-2004, 12:21 AM

CRVTEC fits into 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th gen Civics

How about 2nd gen? :D

http://hcoc.2u.com.my/2gen.htm

http://hcoc.2u.com.my/pics/2ndgenside.jpe

Throttle bodies anyone?

http://hcoc.2u.com.my/pics/civic-type4.jpg

tinkerbell

10-02-2004, 08:23 AM

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i found that car agggeeesss ago and did not book mark it!!!!!

"The feeling of G -Force was like what a 600hp Skyline would produce...no joke! "

sick car - major work to fit it in though...

Setanta

10-02-2004, 04:10 PM

Holy - shit, I saw a B16A in a first gen Accord but that's insane!!! :)

Ok - now I'm wondering if a B16A powered first gen is possible. The EB and EN blocks of the first and second gen Civics were the same and having owned both, there is only a little more room in the 2nd gen engine bay. Most of it to the front, not the rear. Recess the firewall maybe?

Hmmm... 660 kilo 1st gen plus CRVTEC - now THAT could be fun :)