Does you euro have drift to one side tendency?

[Type R Positive]

Do you have any other suggestions?
You guy's with the "problem", have you had lazer allignment?

[Type R Positive]

I think what LXRY meant with his car drifting to both left and right is exactly what I said a few pages ago.

1) If road cambers left, car drifts to left slightly as 'normal', or sometimes not at all despite the uneven road.

2) If road is straight and flat, the car sometimes track straight, sometimes drifts right.

3) If road cambers to the right, then the car pulls to the right very HARD.
Just say in condition 1, the road cambers at 10 degrees to left - the car will drift left only slightly.
But if it now cambers at 10 degrees to the right, just exactly opposite to above condition - the car will drift very very hard to the right. So the effect isn't proportional.

Maybe they set the car to track straight on Aussie cambered roads?
This is why I believe it is an allignment issue.

[cgspot]

You guy's with the "problem", have you had lazer allignment?
The Honda Service Centre suggested that there is no need for a laser alignment because after the tyres have been rotated the car drives straight (within tollerance) nothing wrong with the car.

"Independent" reviews for the RE040 are not looking good.....

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE040

http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Bridgestone_Potenza_RE040_tire_reviews.html

[LXRY]

The Honda Service Centre suggested that there is no need for a laser alignment because after the tyres have been newly rotated the car drives straight (within tollerance) nothing wrong with the car.

"Independent" reviews for the RE040 are not looking good.....

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE040

http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Bridgestone_Potenza_RE040_tire_reviews.html

Well done cgspot good find buddy I read all the reviews shocking actually :thumbdwn:

What where these guys doing when they chose these tyres (Rep from bridgestone and Honda getting plastered on SAKI lol)

Yep no need for alignment alright they made that very clear to me aswell (stupid fool I went and got one as well doh)

[tony1234]

The Honda Service Centre suggested that there is no need for a laser alignment because after the tyres have been newly rotated the car drives straight (within tollerance) nothing wrong with the car.

"Independent" reviews for the RE040 are not looking good.....

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE040

http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Bridgestone_Potenza_RE040_tire_reviews.html
I just read these reviews.Interesting reading.I don't think 1 person gives the RE040s a good rap.Go to Honda Aust.armed with this info.and be definite.You want 4X new tyres(not RE040s of course)nothing less.Tell them they have 14 days to resolve the matter,if it's not resolved in this time frame tell them that you'll be taking the matter to Dept.Fair Trading.(i'm not sure what it is in Vic.).Be polite but PERSISTENT.Don't give in!!!!

[V205]

I think it's pretty conclusive from the findings here that the issue is with the 17" RE040 Tyres.

For those who have had their wheels alignment in trying to resolve the drift-to-the-right issue with 17" RE040 Tyres, good luck in trying to get them back into original spec which were most likely to be fine.

Honda Australia need to issue a safety recall of these tyres and swap them over to something that is tested to be non-right-drifiting... maybe try something like Yokohama C-Drive. How do we instigate this action?

Edit: if they don't want to change it over... it may be worthwhile just doing it ourself for our own safety sake.

[Omotesando]

****COPIED FROM ONE OF THE REVIEWS*******
"Take a wild guess - Not only are these the worst tires to drive in the snow, but the suck even while the car is parked. I parked my RX8 on my driveway (moderate downhill grade) with e-brake and in reverse. I later found my car in the lot behind my apartment 40 feet away from its orignal placement. Luckily, the tires are so bad the it slid perfectly straight and narrowly missed my apartment."
*************************

Can I ask - what the hell does the above have to do with the tyres? It is completely irrelevant to the tyre's performance lol.

Anyway, I'm actually not convinced that this is a problem with the 17" RE040 tyres.

Show me someone who has switched from these 225/45/17s RE040's into something the same or similar size from another company, on stock suspension, which has gotten rid of the problem first.

As I already said - initially there is no drifting problem, until you wear down the tyres. 2ndly, when you rotate them, the problem goes away for the time being until a few thousand kms later.


Forgot to say earlier that the biggest difference between 17" and 16" tyres is the contact patch shape, where it is wider on the 17" and as such, if there are imbalances on how the vehicle is tracking, then uneven tyre wear will be more exhibited on the bigger tyres. Plus the tramlining itself doesn't help it!

[aaronng]

Forgot to say earlier that the biggest difference between 17" and 16" tyres is the contact patch shape, where it is wider on the 17" and as such, if there are imbalances on how the vehicle is tracking, then uneven tyre wear will be more exhibited on the bigger tyres. Plus the tramlining itself doesn't help it!
On the Euro, the biggest difference between the 16" and 17" OEM tyres are the thread and compound.

[tony1234]

I changed the OEM 17s for Conti sport Contact 2s from brand new.same size,profile(225/45/17).Admittedly i've lowered my car but i can't see what diff. this would make if anything it could make the pulling/drifting more pronounced!!!I still reckon it's the tyres.Just my opinion!PS i've now done 6800ks.NO drifting/pulling at all and i haven't rotated the wheels since i had the Conti's put on from new.

[Omotesando]

On the Euro, the biggest difference between the 16" and 17" OEM tyres are the thread and compound.

Except you haven't been able to explain how the difference in thread and compound have contributed to the car drifting.

Whereas I've looking at it from the tyre dimensional differences which might be able to explain why the effect is more apparent on the stock 17" tyres more than on the 16" tyres.

As I said, show me someone who has changed the 17" RE040's to something completely different but still 17", and on completely stock suspension and not lowered (via whatever method).

[aaronng]

Except you haven't been able to explain how the difference in thread and compound have contributed to the car drifting.

LOL, I don't need to explain. Some tyres drift. It's common sense because small design flaws turn up magnified when on a rotating system. I guess you don't really use brands that are 2nd/3rd tier. But when you do, you'll realise how wide the difference between good and poor tyres can be.



Whereas I've looking at it from the tyre dimensional differences which might be able to explain why the effect is more apparent on the stock 17" tyres more than on the 16" tyres.
If that is the case, every other brand of 17" tyres when put on the euro should drift more than the stock 16". But that's not true.



As I said, show me someone who has changed the 17" RE040's to something completely different but still 17", and on completely stock suspension and not lowered (via whatever method).
tony1234 did that. He changed to Continentals the day after he picked up his car. His suspension mods were carried out a week later. In between, he said he did not have any pulling. There are at least 2 Euro Sport owners complaining of the pull since day 1. (clowdz and Woogler).
We'll just have to wait until those complaining of the pull switch to different tyres.

[tony1234]

LOL, I don't need to explain. Some tyres drift. It's common sense because small design flaws turn up magnified when on a rotating system. I guess you don't really use brands that are 2nd/3rd tier. But when you do, you'll realise how wide the difference between good and poor tyres can be.


If that is the case, every other brand of 17" tyres when put on the euro should drift more than the stock 16". But that's not true.


tony1234 did that. He changed to Continentals the day after he picked up his car. His suspension mods were carried out a week later. In between, he said he did not have any pulling. There are at least 2 Euro Sport owners complaining of the pull since day 1. (clowdz and Woogler).
We'll just have to wait until those complaining of the pull switch to different tyres.
Exactly aaron.Why is it that a car with OEM 17s drifts/pulls and when OEM 16s are put on it doesn't????Either cgspot or LXRY did this i think.it's GOT to be the tyres.What else can it be?Alignment seem to have been ruled out by the service dept.

[Type R Positive]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21043&page=3&highlight=coil+overs
While searching, I came across this! Might just be the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pfffffft. And you guys are blaming your tyres............

[V205]

So why doesn't 16" have this issue? :)

*waits for someone to change their RE040 to something else.... (without doing other wheels related mods) *


http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21043&page=3&highlight=coil+overs
While searching, I came across this! Might just be the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pfffffft. And you guys are blaming your tyres............

[yfin]

So why doesn't 16" have this issue? :)

*waits for someone to change their RE040 to something else.... (without doing other wheels related mods) *

Well I had it on the 16" but perhaps that was a totally different issue as it was to the LEFT. I have never had the RE040. I suspect the guys with the drift to the right are experiencing something different.

[aaronng]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21043&page=3&highlight=coil+overs
While searching, I came across this! Might just be the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pfffffft. And you guys are blaming your tyres............
Please read that thread properly on why the car is lower 1cm on the driver's side. It's called corner balancing.

[Type R Positive]

Please read that thread properly on why the car is lower 1cm on the driver's side. It's called corner balancing.
Are you sure it's balanced? Have you checked?

[aaronng]

Are you sure it's balanced? Have you checked?
As I said before, please read the threads that you link to. It's stated in there that Best Motoring DVD confirmed that Honda designs the stock suspension height using corner balancing with 1 person in the driver's seat.

[Type R Positive]

As I said before, please read the threads that you link to. It's stated in there that Best Motoring DVD confirmed that Honda designs the stock suspension height using corner balancing with 1 person in the driver's seat.So if you are heavier than the standard Jap, your car veers left. Hahahah!

[aaronng]

So if you are heavier than the standard Jap, your car veers left. Hahahah!
Lay off the drugs. :D
Your car does not veer left because you are heavier than what Honda expected.

You could have someone sitting in the rear on the right and no on in the front passenger seat, and your car still handles like normal.

[cgspot]

Honda Australia replied to my complaint about the car pulling to the right.
They have issued a service notice, which my local service centre got; it's a checklist of procedures to follow in the event a car is pulling, which they followed.

Yes, Service Manager confirmed ... it pulled to one side (all the way to the other lane) in less than 6 sec @ 100Kph.

They rotated the tyres ... problem rectified (for now) @ 3300Klm.

However, I pointed out that they had already rotated the tyres @ 1000Klm, for exactly the same problem (it's on record) and asked if they would need another rotation in another 2000Klm?

The Service Manager replied that if so, it would confirm in his mind that it is the tyres and not a problem with the car.

Since the tyres were rotated @3300Klm the car has not been pulling to the right (now 4100Klm). However, the wheels have spun under moderate accelleration, the ride is Hard and both front doors have been buzzzing and rattling like crazy.

In looking through the other threds the one on tyre pressure took my interest so I decided to check the tyre pressure on mine... Cold 44psi ... This disturbed me somewhat! so I reduced it to a standard 36psi which has given me better traction and a smoother ride (The buzzing and rattling is still there) BUT, the drift to the right HAS RETURNED.

Thats right 44psi no drift to the right ... 36psi strong drift/pull to the right.

I have now split the difference and am running the fronts 40psi & backs 38psi and have better grip, a little bit of drift to the right and still have the buzzing and rattling. I'm trying this for a few hundred Klm's then I'll take this info back to the service department.

By the way; standard 17" rims NO modifications.

[tony1234]

Since the tyres were rotated @3300Klm the car has not been pulling to the right (now 4100Klm). However, the wheels have spun under moderate accelleration, the ride is Hard and both front doors have been buzzzing and rattling like crazy.

In looking through the other threds the one on tyre pressure took my interest so I decided to check the tyre pressure on mine... Cold 44psi ... This disturbed me somewhat! so I reduced it to a standard 36psi which has given me better traction and a smoother ride (The buzzing and rattling is still there) BUT, the drift to the right HAS RETURNED.

Thats right 44psi no drift to the right ... 36psi strong drift/pull to the right.

I have now split the difference and am running the fronts 40psi & backs 38psi and have better grip, a little bit of drift to the right and still have the buzzing and rattling. I'm trying this for a few hundred Klm's then I'll take this info back to the service department.

By the way; standard 17" rims NO modifications.
Can't help with the drifting/pulling(apart from changing the Bridgestones to a better tyre)but re: the rattling doors 1 of the guys posted a link that will be of int.to you.It's www.acuraworld.com/tsb.html Click on TSX.It makes for int.reading!!!!

[Omotesando]

tony1234 did that. He changed to Continentals the day after he picked up his car. His suspension mods were carried out a week later. In between, he said he did not have any pulling. There are at least 2 Euro Sport owners complaining of the pull since day 1. (clowdz and Woogler).
We'll just have to wait until those complaining of the pull switch to different tyres.

Firstly the majority of us on the RE040's don't actually pull to one side when the car is new. Obviously there are variations and exceptions, such as alignment problems from stock, but the general statistics show that:

1) People's Euro Lux on RE040 start pulling more and more to the right only after a few thousand kms, even if alignment seems normal.
2) If tyres are rotated at service, the drifting disappears for the time being, until a little bit later it resurfaces. When I say rotated, I mean the tyres and wheels are rotated Front to Back, not Left to Right. For some reason, I think some Euro Lux owners didn't get this, going by how some people responded.
3) Tony1234 switching to NEW Continentals for 1 week will fall under condition (1), so I do not expect his car to pull to the side just as yet, since those are brand new tyres. Especially when he barely waited 1 week and changed suspension parts. Look I agree with you AARONNG, it could go eitherway, I'm not trying to be stubborn but just trying to be scientific about it. :)


4thly, as I've mentioned before but I think people didn't actually catch my drift (pun intended!) - 17" tyres are KNOWN and suppose to track and tramline more than 16" tyres. There are two folds to this. That's because it has low profile, so the contact patch is more of a horizontal shape compared to a higher profile tyre. And also, the 225mm 17" tyre is wider by default than the 16" tyre. As such it tends to track the road where the car's suspension or the road wants it to go more, thereby exercerbating any underlying drift problems. The fact that the RE040's are known to be a tramlining bastard doesn't help this. :o

The thing is - if the RE040's has a major design fault that's causing the car to drift 'right', then this should be anticipated by its irregular tyre pattern. But it cannot be, as its rather symmetrical. 2ndly, the RE040 is used extensively on many other cars, such as on the Beamers, Subarus, etc, and their respective owners don't seem to complain of the same tyre drifting to the right as the Euro owners do. All they complain about is tramlining, which is a separate issue (but could be related, read below).

The other dead giveaway clue to consider, and as I've mentioned previously, if swapping the tyres makes the problem go away 'for a short period', it eliminates the possibility that its the tyre design or tyre construction which is making the car drift- in fact, it seems to suggest that the front tyres are wearing differently to the rears.

All in all with everything considered, it seems like due to the tramlining problem with the RE040 tyres, but where the source of the problem actually lies with car balance or suspension problems, the Euro combined with the RE040 is a bad combo and is having problems. However, working it out logically, it does suggest that the RE040 is the secondary problem that's exaggerating the primary problem with the car's design, rather than the other way around! :angel:

[tony1234]

I now have 7500ks. on my Conti tyres.They haven;t been balanced,rotated and the car hasn't had an alignment since the tyre change(done at 70ks) and lowering(done at(1200ks.ithink!)NO drifting/pulling left/right NOTHING.It's got to be those crap tyres they put on the car,they mustn't suit the Euro.If i had the problem i'd be telling Honda i want replacement tyres,no ifs no buts.this is crap rotating them every 1-2000ks.GO for it,be persistent,ie.nag and pester the shite out of them and don't take that crap re:rotating them every 2000ks.or whatever.That's just a band-aid solution.Just my 2c worth!!!

[euro77]

My RX-8 uses the RE-040 stock from factory. So far it has been running straight, so it might not be the tyres (at least not entirely attributed to just the tyres) that's causing the drift.

I saw this in the car bible http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html, scroll down to the "Coloured dots and stripes - whats that all about?" section and see the explanation about where the colour stripes should be and the tendency for the car to drift that way if all the colour stripes are on that side. maybe it has something to do with this? a long shot though. maybe if your tyres still have these stripes, have a look at them.

[tony1234]

It must be combo of RE 040 and Euro.The car doesn't"like" these tyres.:confused:

[LXRY]

Getting my car back tommorrow took it to a professional tracking place ( Track-Right), first they put it up on there alignment machines rear was out.....this is just after I've recently been to Bob Janes for a wheel alignment mind you.

They checked the car from top to bottom (measured it all up) nothing wrong with the car itself according to them. They test drove it after the alignment and was not pulling at all (according to them, not me yet).

Had a talk about the tyres, told me that could possibly be the uni-directional tyres. According to them the tyres have the belt on one side from manufacturing causing them to drift (refer to attachment, taken from http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html thanks to euro77 for the link..).

They will test drive it again tommorrow morning when the tyres cold just in case. Also adviced me to ask for new tyres if it persists, not UNI-DIRECTIONAL.

If they get enough complaints they have no choice but to do this, according to them...push push they say, this I agree with aswell. It's not our fault that they chose the wrong tyres, they should of trialed the tyres with the car. If you ask me heads have to roll at Honda, someone F*@!ed up. Still a safety issue aswell, IMO.

Will report again tomorrow

[yfin]

Hmmm, thanks for the post Lxry. You might remember I posted a while ago that I got my drift to stop but I did a few things at the same time (suspension, strut, laser align, tyres) so not sure what fixed it?

Well you might be interested to know that I fitted non-directional tyres... It wasn't a conscious thing - it was just a good deal on that particular make and tyre.

By the way, I think you are going to have problems getting the dealer to do anything if an independent place says the car tracks straight. Let us know how it goes with the cold tyres. :thumbsup:

[Omotesando]

Getting my car back tommorrow took it to a professional tracking place ( Track-Right), first they put it up on there alignment machines rear was out.....this is just after I've recently been to Bob Janes for a wheel alignment mind you.

They checked the car from top to bottom (measured it all up) nothing wrong with the car itself according to them. They test drove it after the alignment and was not pulling at all (according to them, not me yet).

Had a talk about the tyres, told me that could possibly be the uni-directional tyres. According to them the tyres have the belt on one side from manufacturing causing them to drift (refer to attachment, taken from http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html thanks to euro77 for the link..).

They will test drive it again tommorrow morning when the tyres cold just in case. Also adviced me to ask for new tyres if it persists, not UNI-DIRECTIONAL.

If they get enough complaints they have no choice but to do this, according to them...push push they say, this I agree with aswell. It's not our fault that they chose the wrong tyres, they should of trialed the tyres with the car. If you ask me heads have to roll at Honda, someone F*@!ed up. Still a safety issue aswell, IMO.

Will report again tomorrow


There should not be any problems with Uni-directional or Directional tyres, honestly. Most if not all high performance tyres are Uni-directional.

2ndly, the RE040 has TWIN steel belts, that is the design of the Potenzas. So it is wrong to suggest its the belt on one side that contributes it drifting to one side. As much as I respect Trutrack and their guys, I wonder if they actually know about this tyre.:D

[tony1234]

Hmmm, thanks for the post Lxry. You might remember I posted a while ago that I got my drift to stop but I did a few things at the same time (suspension, strut, laser align, tyres) so not sure what fixed it?

Well you might be interested to know that I fitted non-directional tyres... It wasn't a conscious thing - it was just a good deal on that particular make and tyre.

By the way, I think you are going to have problems getting the dealer to do anything if an independent place says the car tracks straight. Let us know how it goes with the cold tyres. :thumbsup:
If there is a problem with an OEM tyre that Honda put on their cars then Honda have to honour any warranty issues that may occur.It's the same with the battery,while they(Honda)don't manufacture these(tyres and batteries)these items are covered on a "pro rata" basis meaning that with say tyres,if there is 50% tread left then 50% is paid for by Honda and 50% by the customer.You make a good point yfin.I, like you have fitted non-directional tyres(continentals) and i don't have the problem.It's likely directional tyres are to blame,the RE 040s are maybe worse re:pulling/drifting than other directional tyres on the Euro!!!:confused:

[LXRY]

There should not be any problems with Uni-directional or Directional tyres, honestly. Most if not all high performance tyres are Uni-directional.

2ndly, the RE040 has TWIN steel belts, that is the design of the Potenzas. So it is wrong to suggest its the belt on one side that contributes it drifting to one side. As much as I respect Trutrack and their guys, I wonder if they actually know about this tyre.:D

You are right they are TWIN belted....hmmm. Just checked their site

[yfin]

If there is a problem with an OEM tyre that Honda put on their cars then Honda have to honour any warranty issues that may occur.It's the same with the battery,while they(Honda)don't manufacture these(tyres and batteries)these items are covered on a "pro rata" basis meaning that with say tyres,if there is 50% tread left then 50% is paid for by Honda and 50% by the customer.You make a good point yfin.I, like you have fitted non-directional tyres(continentals) and i don't have the problem.It's likely directional tyres are to blame,the RE 040s are maybe worse re:pulling/drifting than other directional tyres on the Euro!!!:confused:
I agree with you 100%. But how is LXRY going to ever get help from the dealer or Honda Australia - if his alignment specialists say the car tracks straight? What you need is someone independent (and of reputable experience) who will say "this car is not tracking correctly" and be prepared to say so if Honda or a dealer calls them. LXRY hasn't got that yet so his case is going to be difficult to deal with under warranty.

[cgspot]

After coming back from the service centre my drift to the right was gone... however, the feel of the cars ride was rough and I noticed the tyre pressure had been reset to 44psi cold.

The SEA-Q3 inside the door states 225/45R17 91W to be 32/30psi.

I dropped the tyre pressure down to 32 and 'Wham' the drift to the right came back, really bad. Bring it back up to 42 and its gone.

How could it not be the tyres?

I'm not happy about running the tyres at 42 let alone 44 so I'm in a bind ... is it safe to continue to run the tyres at 42psi or should I push for new tyres?

(Only 4500Klms on the clock - no modifications)

[tony1234]

I agree with you 100%. But how is LXRY going to ever get help from the dealer or Honda Australia - if his alignment specialists say the car tracks straight? What you need is someone independent (and of reputable experience) who will say "this car is not tracking correctly" and be prepared to say so if Honda or a dealer calls them. LXRY hasn't got that yet so his case is going to be difficult to deal with under warranty.
At least it's narrowed the problem down to the tyres.If the alignment specialist is prepared to state that the car is tracking straight then Honda has to look at replacing the tyres and LXRY has to contribute depending on how much tread is left.:(

[tony1234]

After coming back from the service centre my drift to the right was gone... however, the feel of the cars ride was rough and I noticed the tyre pressure had been reset to 44psi cold.

The SEA-Q3 inside the door states 225/45R17 91W to be 32/30psi.

I dropped the tyre pressure down to 32 and 'Wham' the drift to the right came back, really bad. Bring it back up to 42 and its gone.

How could it not be the tyres?

I'm not happy about running the tyres at 42 let alone 44 so I'm in a bind ... is it safe to continue to run the tyres at 42psi or should I push for new tyres?

(Only 4500Klms on the clock - no modifications)
Try 38psi all round.I run that in mine,no problems.I've got 7600ks.on mine.

[cgspot]

Try 38psi all round.I run that in mine,no problems.I've got 7600ks.on mine.
At 38psi the drift to the right is still noticable

[tony1234]

At 38psi the drift to the right is still noticable
Is it less noticable at 38psi as opposed to 32psi.?

[cgspot]

Is it less noticable at 38psi as opposed to 32psi.?

Yes .. but its still there, 40psi is about where it stops drifting into the next lane after 6 sec @ 100K, but is 40psi (cold) a safe pressure when the recommended is 32psi, especially in light of the fact that tyre pressure increases as it gets hotter?

Bridgestone say not to inflate over 40psi http://www.bridgestone.com.au/tyres/products/car/care/pressure.asp

[tony1234]

Yes .. but its still there, 40psi is about where it stops drifting into the next lane after 6 sec @ 100K, but is 40psi (cold) a safe pressure when the recommended is 32psi, especially in light of the fact that tyre pressure increases as it gets hotter?
40psi should be allright but i wouldn't want to go higher!I was told by the guys that did my tyres(Tynan tyres.they're division of Tynan-Honda dealer in Sydney sth.) that 32 is too low.The tyres wear on the outsides.should be at least 36psi!!!!I'd whinge to Honda,annoy the crap out of them.This is all BS they're giving you.It's the tyres,what more evidence do they need!Take them to Fair Trading that should prod them into action!:thumbdwn:

[avid]

Ive been running my RE040's at 38psi all round and the drift is still there. Ive dropped my rears to 36psi to try and soften up the ride a little.Fortunately or unfortunately this hasnt made the drift better or worse.Im going to check again on my next long run if the drift is any less when the tyres warm up and increase pressure.I think from memory its not quite as bad.
Im starting to think that this problem is a combination of the uni-directional tyres and the design of the Euro front end.In particular,the apparently very steep SAI angle of the strut assembly.
I also notice that Euros run what appears to be a fair amount of positive camber on the front wheels.This in conjunction with the SAI angle, and perhaps too much negative (or positive) castor( i always get confused with castor on FWD's) would give the Euro nice light and responsive steering 'feel',but would also allow the car to self steer off line more easily.I would be curious to know what the Camber and Castor settings are set at from factory.....does anyone know for sure what they are?

[tony1234]

Ive been running my RE040's at 38psi all round and the drift is still there. Ive dropped my rears to 36psi to try and soften up the ride a little.Fortunately or unfortunately this hasnt made the drift better or worse.Im going to check again on my next long run if the drift is any less when the tyres warm up and increase pressure.I think from memory its not quite as bad.
Im starting to think that this problem is a combination of the uni-directional tyres and the design of the Euro front end.In particular,the apparently very steep SAI angle of the strut assembly.
I also notice that Euros run what appears to be a fair amount of positive camber on the front wheels.This in conjunction with the SAI angle, and perhaps too much negative (or positive) castor( i always get confused with castor on FWD's) would give the Euro nice light and responsive steering 'feel',but would also allow the car to self steer off line more easily.I would be curious to know what the Camber and Castor settings are set at from factory.....does anyone know for sure what they are?
I reckon it's the uni-directional tyres.(mainly the RE 040s)They just don't seem to suit the Euro!!!!

[avid]

I think most of us who are actually experiencing this problem agree with you Tony....the tyres dont suit the Euro.But what we are looking for are solid technical reasons WHY they dont work with the Euro.

[tony1234]

I think most of us who are actually experiencing this problem agree with you Tony....the tyres dont suit the Euro.But what we are looking for are solid technical reasons WHY they dont work with the Euro.
All you can do is go to dealer with your car drifting,ask them to put tyres and rims off another car(maybe demo)or even better a new one,if it doesn't drift(which it shouldn't do) it's the tyres.What more proof do they need!!!Then you want tyres replaced on a "pro rata" basis.Nothing less,none of this tyre rotation crap.As for technical reasons how is the average owner going to do that.It's obvious,current tyres =drifting,new ones =no drifting.Like i said before annoy the crap out of them(dealer and Honda).They'll take action just to get rid of you!!!!

[LXRY]

My car is STILL DRIFTING, no difference what so ever (steering wheel still not straight aswell, another alignment for nothing :( )

BUT WAIT......

Sorry everyone havn't got back on this matter....Have searched high and low for a solution, and finally I HAVE FOUND IT.....After all the F*$^ING around!!!!!

Spoke to a bridgestone dealer today just dropped in for the sake of it cause I was pissed off after speaking to someone from customer relations Honda (got now where with the phone call) didn't think it would help but I was desperate....

I asked the manager of the Bridgestone dealer if they had any problems with the RE040, and whether they where a good tyre? His response to me was that of course they where, why wouldn't they be. My response to him was that Honda where blaming the RE040 on the drifting problem that where a SHIT tyre, he casually replied "If they where SHIT why are they using RE040's then?" He was abit upset as I set a challenge to him....but wait....He casually picked up the phone while still talking to me confidently called head office expecting them to side with him.....He asked "is there any problems with drifting on the RE040" so confidently, they said "NO" untill he mentioned my car was a euro...........Then they replied "YES" they said there WAS a problem with the euros drifting with there RE040 that where fitted from JAPAN. This poor bloke and myself where shocked after all that F*%$@ING around it was that easy.

Out he came to inspect the tyres....Apparently the DOT (an imprint on the tyre with the manufacturing date was on the wrong side....e.g. the dot or stamp should be facing on the outside of the tyres. My car on the left hand side they where on the outside, BUT on the right hand side they where NOT, they where on the inside of the tyre, being uni directional this is a problem as you can't rotate tyres. Apparently they had done a recall before the car was released....Hmmm makes me think I bought mine in January. Everywhere I went they only had 2005 models except at this dealer where I bought my car, not many of them around according to the dealer i bought it from. January models came with 5 year warranty aswell...hmmmmhow many euro's in this forum bought in January? Sh*t for all I know the dot could be the same on all re040's not sure about this going by what he told me.

I will report on the date of manufacturing
or dot Tommorrow.

Now after all this info thanks to this gentlemen from bridgestone dealer I then called my dealership to vent my anger....they still denied it, which didnt surprise me.

The person he spoke to on the phone was a Steve Gleeson from head office Bridgestone Australia.

Tommorrow I will call Stave Gleeson personally again to confirm the problem and explain that it is there best interest to chase the matter up as the reputation of there tyre is at stake, and after that I will call Honda Customer
Relations again with this new info....

I suggest everyone check there tyres to see which side the dots are and please report back to this thread....

Even call Steve Gleeson at Bridgestone Australia because I am tommorow, first thing and Honda Customer Relations as well.

I would appreciate the support everyone as one person they wont listen it takes many too stir the pot on this matter, and I will be reporting the issue to Vic-Roads as a safety issue aswell.


They have no choice but to listen If we all call ppl...I'm sure we all love Honda especially our Euro's, but this is not on, fair is fair. Not our fault we shouldn't have to chase shit like this up, thats why I bought a new car with new car warranty ( I'm repeating my self I know, sorry)

The number for
Honda Customer Relations 1800 804 954

Bridgestone Australia 08206 0200 (Sth Aust.) Steve Gleeson
couldn't find a freecall number sorry

Can't wait for tommorow....HeHe
P.S Aaronng this is going back to when you brought up that theory of yours you brought up, hehe...you where on the right track!!

[yfin]

Thanks for the update LXRY. What you say is very interesting and it may well be that Bridgestone and Honda are well aware of the issue but are simply discussing (read fighting) over who will pay for any defect or error.

Just to clarify a few things though - when you say there was a recall, was that by Bridgestone or by Honda? Honda hasn't recalled anything regarding tyres.

I know what you are saying regarding these dots, I have seen them for myself - but what about the direction stamp on the tyre? If that was showing the wrong direction someone would have picked it up a long time ago.

[LXRY]

Thanks for the update LXRY. What you say is very interesting and it may well be that Bridgestone and Honda are well aware of the issue but are simply discussing (read fighting) over who will pay for any defect or error.

Just to clarify a few things though - when you say there was a recall, was that by Bridgestone or by Honda? Honda hasn't recalled anything regarding tyres.

I know what you are saying regarding these dots, I have seen them for myself - but what about the direction stamp on the tyre? If that was showing the wrong direction someone would have picked it up a long time ago.
According to this guy and his conversation with Mr Gleeson the recall was done before the car was released, and about the dot not sure if it is about which direction the dot should be but I think they are refering to the dot needing to be on the outside of the tyre (facing outside) not on the inside of the tyre, not exactly sure of this, will clarify this tommorow, after the phone call with Mr Gleeson (Bridgestone Aust.)

[clowdz]

I had a quick look at my tyres just now. The only difference I can see is right next to where the characters "DOT" are on the tyre.. On the right side of my car (i.e. Drivers Side) the front and rear tyres have the code "DAJ0306". On the left side this code is not there. Is this what you are referring to? As this is the only difference I can see between the tyres on the left and the right. Also, my car does drift to the right.

[tony1234]

I'd be all for helping you guys with the drifting/pulling problem but i changed my tyres to Contisport contact 2s at 70 ks.I've never liked Bridgestones.This is the main reason i swapped them.

[LXRY]

Sorry everyone but it seems that the guy who spoke to Mr Gleeson from the Bridgestone dealer was WRONG

Just got off the phone with him personally. This guy is a legend....seems NO-RECALL...what the guy meant by recall was that a few cars maybe more than a few not sure of this, where having this problem (drifting) from 0klm's...they couldn't give the cars to the customers like this obviously. The tyres where sent to them for inspection...they where inspected I think even sent back to Japan, came back nothing wrong with the tyres. It seems that the tyres on euro's where specially engineered for the car (wind tunnel).

Now according to Mr Gleeson (euro owner himself, 2005 lxry with 17" RE040 OEM) they are the same tyres as he has on his 2005 model, which don't have this problem...seems like only 2006 models only, according to him.

Told him what they had done to my car (adjusted or bent the K-frame) to absorb the drift, said straight away this was only a band aid solution, is not fixing the problem, just causing another one.

What he meant by DOT was when they came in for inspection, thought that might have been the same batch with the dot which was a coloured marking which comes off whithin a few washes....not the dot I was refering to in my previous thread SORRY :(

He thinks that this might be a camber, toe issue....as the camber cannot be adjusted so they adjust the K-Frame, this poses other problems like my steering wheel not straight for example, or even if the tyres where to be changed, what then does the frame have to be adjusted to suit new tyres....?

He told me how they even rotated the tyres with the arrow facing the other way (this should have made the tyres drift to the left according to him, if it where the tyres)

So I am back to the drawing board, damn I was excited...

He told me that Honda even if they knew what it was they wouldn't tell me anyway, everything hush -hush there apparently :zip: .

So now according to him being a witness of course, there is a problem with the car drifting, yah ;) .

Sorry once again...If anyone wants to speak to him this is his number 03 93692922 Mr Gleeson, just tell him your from the Ozhonda forum, there to help !!

[avid]

Anyone want to talk about 'class action' yet??

[yfin]

Anyone want to talk about 'class action' yet??
Let me indulge this hypothetical for a moment... ;) Assuming you can even get a class together - say 50 people - you will need to be prepared for legals of at least $100,000 as a group (so $2000 each )(my estimate) and the chance of recovering this even with a successful claim is questionable. There is also very little credible evidence of what is causing this (so far) - so you have just as much chance of losing which means more costs.

My suggestion is to put up with this until the tyres have done 20,000 clicks (which isn't long for most drivers) and then swap the tyres. Total cost $800-1000. Or if your tyres are relatively new you could trade them in or sell them on ebay and cut your losses.

I feel for you guys with this problem, but be realistic. Approaching this from a public relations stand point will be far more effective than litigation.

[tony1234]

Anyone want to talk about 'class action' yet??
This is ridiculous.there's obviously a problem here.I think all of you should take the matter to Fair Trading(in NSW)or relevant govt.body in your state.All of you should lodge complaints on the same day!

[yfin]

This is ridiculous.there's obviously a problem here.I think all of you should take the matter to Fair Trading(in NSW)or relevant govt.body in your state.All of you should lodge complaints on the same day!

Don't overwhelm the public service. They are struggling as it is.. lol :D

[tony1234]

Don't overwhelm the public service. They are struggling as it is.. lol :D
Mmmm.You've got a point there!!!

[yfin]

If this was me and I had no joy from the dealer and the national Honda customer service people, I would drive down to Honda HQ in Melbourne and sit in the reception until they let me speak to a senior exec about the problem. Make it a weekly visit if I had to.

It is somewhat similar to the motives of a psycho madman - but that would work to my advantage in getting results :D

Or you could try this--- this also can be effective but is further down the mad man path... Once you put stickers on your car - the gloves are off and Today Tonight take interest. lol

http://www.myaudittsucks.com/myLemonTT3.jpg

http://www.myaudittsucks.com/

[Omotesando]

Pardon me if I'm reading something wrong as I'm flat out with work even at midnight :(

But anyway, it still sounds like Bridgestone is blaming Honda and Honda is blaming Bridgestone after what LXRY has gone thru, back and forth with many suggestions, accusations, clarifications and his alignment with Trutrack :o .

Well Bridgestone has tested the RE040 tyres and said they're okay, as they're also okay on numerous other car models. (Although I heard the same model number of 'tyre' could have slight variations for different cars?)

The 17" tyre packages are only used from 2005 and also the 2006 Lux and Sports models right? It definitely happens on many 2005s too, not only 2006, just to clarify.

I would suggest what YFIN has said. Change the tyres when they're worn enough or sell it, then get different tyres altogether. Although I also envision that if the problem still persists, it will still be hard to sue or complain to Honda - because at that time, they'll be blaming the problem on Michelin or Continental or Kumho or whoever - just because you're no longer using the RE040s. Hmmm... its never ending.

Does anyone think - Bridgestone will be willing to help us, by 'exchanging' the tyres on one of our Euros with a different 17" tyre, say a G-III, for testing for say 1 month? Even if they're used? Or say we approach Kumho or Continental or Michelin (HONDA F1 used them afterall) and they might be interested in helping us solve the problem? Afterall if they can help, they'll get good rep from us and drive more sales.

Also don't forget, Bob Jane T-Mart can allow the customer to put on new tyres, then if they don't feel comfortable with them, get you another set until you're happy. I don't believe you can get a full cash refund apart from exchange, without restocking charges though.

Having said all that, luckily my problem isn't bad at all. Its barely noticeable. But I would say something needs to be done ASAP, some complains to a 3rd party (TV program, Consumer Concil) will be a good start. :D

[avid]

Let me indulge this hypothetical for a moment... ;) Assuming you can even get a class together - say 50 people - you will need to be prepared for legals of at least $100,000 as a group (so $2000 each )(my estimate) and the chance of recovering this even with a successful claim is questionable. There is also very little credible evidence of what is causing this (so far) - so you have just as much chance of losing which means more costs.

My suggestion is to put up with this until the tyres have done 20,000 clicks (which isn't long for most drivers) and then swap the tyres. Total cost $800-1000. Or if your tyres are relatively new you could trade them in or sell them on ebay and cut your losses.

I feel for you guys with this problem, but be realistic. Approaching this from a public relations stand point will be far more effective than litigation.

Yeah,just "stirrin' the pot" I know Honda are reading this site.Just want to give 'em something to think about.

[tony1234]

Pardon me if I'm reading something wrong as I'm flat out with work even at midnight :(

But anyway, it still sounds like Bridgestone is blaming Honda and Honda is blaming Bridgestone after what LXRY has gone thru, back and forth with many suggestions, accusations, clarifications and his alignment with Trutrack :o .

Well Bridgestone has tested the RE040 tyres and said they're okay, as they're also okay on numerous other car models. (Although I heard the same model number of 'tyre' could have slight variations for different cars?)

The 17" tyre packages are only used from 2005 and also the 2006 Lux and Sports models right? It definitely happens on many 2005s too, not only 2006, just to clarify.

I would suggest what YFIN has said. Change the tyres when they're worn enough or sell it, then get different tyres altogether. Although I also envision that if the problem still persists, it will still be hard to sue or complain to Honda - because at that time, they'll be blaming the problem on Michelin or Continental or Kumho or whoever - just because you're no longer using the RE040s. Hmmm... its never ending.

Does anyone think - Bridgestone will be willing to help us, by 'exchanging' the tyres on one of our Euros with a different 17" tyre, say a G-III, for testing for say 1 month? Even if they're used? Or say we approach Kumho or Continental or Michelin (HONDA F1 used them afterall) and they might be interested in helping us solve the problem? Afterall if they can help, they'll get good rep from us and drive more sales.

Also don't forget, Bob Jane T-Mart can allow the customer to put on new tyres, then if they don't feel comfortable with them, get you another set until you're happy. I don't believe you can get a full cash refund apart from exchange, without restocking charges though.

Having said all that, luckily my problem isn't bad at all. Its barely noticeable. But I would say something needs to be done ASAP, some complains to a 3rd party (TV program, Consumer Concil) will be a good start. :D
Look at the facts.You buy a new car,speedo reading is 2-3-4000kms.or whatever.car drifts/pulls.Take car to dealer,they rotate tyres,problem goes away.1-2000kms its back same again then align,same again.This is crap.you(the customer) want it fixed.You don't want all this BS, eg:it's not the tyres,count for 6 secs.till it drifts into opp.lane,you're imagining it this is all sh*t.It's time to take the gloves off.No more buck passing.You guys want it FIXED.:thumbdwn:

[cgspot]

Honda Australia replied to my complaint about the car pulling to the right.
They have issued a service notice, which my local service centre got; it's a checklist of procedures to follow in the event a car is pulling, which they followed.

Yes, Service Manager confirmed ... it pulled to one side (all the way to the other lane) in less than 6 sec @ 100Kph.

They rotated the tyres ... problem rectified (for now) @ 3300Klm.

However, I pointed out that they had already rotated the tyres @ 1000Klm, for exactly the same problem (it's on record) and asked if they would need another rotation in another 2000Klm?

The Service Manager replied that if so, it would confirm in his mind that it is the tyres and not a problem with the car.

The veering to the right is re-surfacing for my car @ approx 4900Klms. It's getting to the stage where I'm getting so frustrated that I'll just have to take it in again ... When I get some time, soon, hopefully...

This time ... I'll be hitting them up for five new tyres.

Not happy
Perplexed
Confused
Frustrated

[Omotesando]

Look at the facts.You buy a new car,speedo reading is 2-3-4000kms.or whatever.car drifts/pulls.Take car to dealer,they rotate tyres,problem goes away.1-2000kms its back same again then align,same again.This is crap.you(the customer) want it fixed.You don't want all this BS, eg:it's not the tyres,count for 6 secs.till it drifts into opp.lane,you're imagining it this is all sh*t.It's time to take the gloves off.No more buck passing.You guys want it FIXED.:thumbdwn:

Yes agree with that completely.

To be honest I don't care whether it is the tyres or the car which is doing it, or BOTH. All I'm trying to work out is how to fix the damn problem just because honda isn't capable of fixing it.

Afterall, when you purchase a finished product, say a DELL/TOSHIBA/APPLE/IBM or even SONY VAIO laptop, if there is a problem with the parts such as the battery which is provided by 3rd parties - no matter what, the original manufacturer is still liable for the fix and recall. It is then their duty to recover those costs from the 'parts/tyres' manufacturer. And if it really is Honda's design fault, then the same applies, Honda is responsible. So ultimately Mr H. is the one we talk to.

Anyway, CGSPOT - sorry to hear about that. Unfortunately you guessed right that it needed to be swapped again after 2000ks (not even that from what you wrote). But contrary to what that manager said, I don't really think that puts the blame on the tyres at all, but quite the contrary - especially if they worked for a period before becoming troubling you again - sounds like some geometry is out instead. But anyway, I stand corrected if eitherway could be proven!:D

[cgspot]

Originally Posted by cgspot
Honda Australia replied to my complaint about the car pulling to the right.
They have issued a service notice, which my local service centre got; it's a checklist of procedures to follow in the event a car is pulling, which they followed.
Yes, Service Manager confirmed ... it pulled to one side (all the way to the other lane) in less than 6 sec @ 100Kph.
They rotated the tyres ... problem rectified (for now) @ 3300Klm.
However, I pointed out that they had already rotated the tyres @ 1000Klm, for exactly the same problem (it's on record) and asked if they would need another rotation in another 2000Klm?
The Service Manager replied that if so, it would confirm in his mind that it is the tyres and not a problem with the car.
The veering to the right is re-surfacing for my car @ approx 4900Klms. It's getting to the stage where I'm getting so frustrated that I'll just have to take it in again ... When I get some time, soon, hopefully...
This time ... I'll be hitting them up for five new tyres.

Well @ 5310 Klms I took the car in and asked for 5 new tyres ... NO GO!

However they did conduct Steps 9 and 10 of Service News SN003T06.
Step 9 Carry out 4 wheel alignment and check front cambers.
Result = Left 0.1 and Right 0.7
They loosened off all of the front subframe bolts and pryed the subframe (left or right) and pushed it as far forward as possible to attain as much castor as possible. Then making sure the steering wheel was straight they set the front and rear toe to maximum toe in.
Step 10 Test drive

Well ... I don't think it has fully rectified the issue.
I don't know if these adjustments will cause any other issues.
Will need some time to test it at speed.

If it is not ok, I'll be back .... step 16 in the process is to call the technical department to get authorization to replace bad tyres, so if I have to go through to step 16 I will.

[tony1234]

Well @ 5310 Klms I took the car in and asked for 5 new tyres ... NO GO!

However they did conduct Steps 9 and 10 of Service News SN003T06.
Step 9 Carry out 4 wheel alignment and check front cambers.
Result = Left 0.1 and Right 0.7
They loosened off all of the front subframe bolts and pryed the subframe (left or right) and pushed it as far forward as possible to attain as much castor as possible. Then making sure the steering wheel was straight they set the front and rear toe to maximum toe in.
Step 10 Test drive

Well ... I don't think it has fully rectified the issue.
I don't know if these adjustments will cause any other issues.
Will need some time to test it at speed.

If it is not ok, I'll be back .... step 16 in the process is to call the technical department to get authorization to replace bad tyres, so if I have to go through to step 16 I will.
Unbelievable.I can't print what i think.:thumbdwn:

[rusty]

Pheww, this problem is worrying. I would like to buy a Euro luxury but I am in doubt now. May be I should buy the standard euro.

Does anyone know whether honda has changed the standard tyre (Bridgestone RE040) for euro luxury built later this year? (eg. built in the last quarter of 2006). Or does honda still stick to Bridgestone RE040?

Does anyone who bought the euro luxury recently still get this problem? (or Honda has rectified this)


Thanks.

[tony1234]

Pheww, this problem is worrying. I would like to buy a Euro luxury but I am in doubt now. May be I should buy the standard euro.

Does anyone know whether honda has changed the standard tyre (Bridgestone RE040) for euro luxury built later this year? (eg. built in the last quarter of 2006). Or does honda still stick to Bridgestone RE040?

Does anyone who bought the euro luxury recently still get this problem? (or Honda has rectified this)


Thanks.
Don't let that put you off buying the lux.If you want to be extra carefull just change the tyres from new to another brand(i did this and 8700kms.later no problems).It'll cost you approx $100-$150.Well worth it considering the problems some of the guys on this site are having.Just my opinion!!!

[cgspot]

Sorry everyone but it seems that the guy who spoke to Mr Gleeson from the Bridgestone dealer was WRONG

Just got off the phone with him personally. This guy is a legend....seems NO-RECALL...what the guy meant by recall was that a few cars maybe more than a few not sure of this, where having this problem (drifting) from 0klm's...they couldn't give the cars to the customers like this obviously. The tyres where sent to them for inspection...they where inspected I think even sent back to Japan, came back nothing wrong with the tyres. It seems that the tyres on euro's where specially engineered for the car (wind tunnel).

Now according to Mr Gleeson (euro owner himself, 2005 lxry with 17" RE040 OEM) they are the same tyres as he has on his 2005 model, which don't have this problem...seems like only 2006 models only, according to him.

Told him what they had done to my car (adjusted or bent the K-frame) to absorb the drift, said straight away this was only a band aid solution, is not fixing the problem, just causing another one.

What he meant by DOT was when they came in for inspection, thought that might have been the same batch with the dot which was a coloured marking which comes off whithin a few washes....not the dot I was refering to in my previous thread SORRY :(

He thinks that this might be a camber, toe issue....as the camber cannot be adjusted so they adjust the K-Frame, this poses other problems like my steering wheel not straight for example, or even if the tyres where to be changed, what then does the frame have to be adjusted to suit new tyres....?

He told me how they even rotated the tyres with the arrow facing the other way (this should have made the tyres drift to the left according to him, if it where the tyres)

So I am back to the drawing board, damn I was excited...

He told me that Honda even if they knew what it was they wouldn't tell me anyway, everything hush -hush there apparently :zip: .

So now according to him being a witness of course, there is a problem with the car drifting, yah ;) .

Sorry once again...If anyone wants to speak to him this is his number 03 93692922 Mr Gleeson, just tell him your from the Ozhonda forum, there to help !!
Any updates on your issue LXRY?

Have you had tyres replaced?

[rusty]

If a lot of you are still not happy (after you did everything in your power), I think going to the media will be your best shot.
At least HA will give it serious attention.

[cgspot]

My dealer has finally agreed to replace the two front tyres.

I see this as a sign that the tyres are at fault.

As the car is only 3 months new, 5500Klms, and I've had the problem from day one, I'm not sure if I should accept just two tyres or push for 5 tyres.

Whaddaayareckon?

[avid]

Ask them to swap the back wheels to the front again and tell them if it still pulls(which it will), then you want them replaced too.Remember Kel they were originally on the front before the Dealership rotated them to try and fix the drift initially.

But if it were me, i would be pressuring them for 5 new non directional tyres,and another brand of tyre.
If they only want to do 4 new RE040 replacements i would then insist on the existing spare being put on the front and test running the car to see if it causes a problem.If it does then the Dealership should replace all 5 tyres.

[tony1234]

My dealer has finally agreed to replace the two front tyres.

I see this as a sign that the tyres are at fault.

As the car is only 3 months new, 5500Klms, and I've had the problem from day one, I'm not sure if I should accept just two tyres or push for 5 tyres.

Whaddaayareckon?
Go for the throat!You want at LEAST 4 new tyres(NOT RE040s)Cause what happens when u rotate tyres back to front?I'll bet u get the problem back!

[BIGBLUE]

If you Sydney guys want a REAL alignment go to Heasmans at Sydneham front end specialists for 40+ years,
they really know their stuff, Peter is the guy to talk to.I always go there with a new car for them to check factory specs.

[tanalasta]

Anybody know of a place they would recommend for wheel alignments / balancing in Perth?

I want to see how much of a difference this makes but seeing all the horror stories of steering wheels being not aligned straight etc... I want a recommendation.

[V205]

CGSPOT, what tyres are you likely to replace them with?


My dealer has finally agreed to replace the two front tyres.

I see this as a sign that the tyres are at fault.

As the car is only 3 months new, 5500Klms, and I've had the problem from day one, I'm not sure if I should accept just two tyres or push for 5 tyres.

Whaddaayareckon?

[cgspot]

CGSPOT, what tyres are you likely to replace them with?


Don't know yet...Any suggestions anyone?

Will see them tomorrow to try and finalise this.
I hope....

[tanalasta]

Don't know yet...Any suggestions anyone?

Will see them tomorrow to try and finalise this.
I hope....

I decided a long time ago that if I wanted to replace my tyres, C-drives were the way to go. Good recommendations and balance between price and performance.

[BIGBLUE]

Does this problem occur with the 16 inch wheels/tyres on the standard EURO ???

[aaronng]

Does this problem occur with the 16 inch wheels/tyres on the standard EURO ???

As far as I know, only on the 17" Bridgestones on the Lux.

[V205]

I would probably go for the C-Drive myself. But I heard the A539 was a better tyre and that the C-Drive have a softer sidewall. But then again... I heard the A509 was better than the A539... and I 'really' liked A509 on my prelude when I had them.


QUOTE=tanalasta;980505]I decided a long time ago that if I wanted to replace my tyres, C-drives were the way to go. Good recommendations and balance between price and performance.[/QUOTE]

[BIGBLUE]

I would probably go for the C-Drive myself. But I heard the A539 was a better tyre and that the C-Drive have a softer sidewall. But then again... I heard the A509 was better than the A539... and I 'really' liked A509 on my prelude when I had them.


QUOTE=tanalasta;980505]I decided a long time ago that if I wanted to replace my tyres, C-drives were the way to go. Good recommendations and balance between price and performance.[/QUOTE]
A509 is an old tyre, a good tyre, but been out for years!

[kam]

i turned vsa off and planted it coming out of a driveway, got crazy wheel spin, i think the wheel was every so slightly on an angle after that, or maybe it was just my mind.

[euro77]

Use Yokohama Advan AD-07... if it ever gets to Australia.

[cgspot]

Use Yokohama Advan AD-07... if it ever gets to Australia.

The Yoko Advan looks good ... however, I've been given no choice of tyre at this stage. They are going to put two new front tyres on ... Bridgestone Non-directional pattern, don't know exactly what tyre at the moment.
Guess I'll get some time to test run it with the new front tyres and if this rectifies the issue all well and good ... not.

Will then push for the other three tyres.

[cgspot]

Had the car in again today
They put two new tyres on the front ... Bridgestone Potenza RE040's

rrrrrrr

I said I'll test it and see....

Drove off, all ok, then heh, it veers to the left .... stop, check the tyre pressure ....

Left Front 38psi and Right Front 39psi

I set them both back to 36psi....

Now .... it actually seems to be allright .... for now!

Gonna test it at speed and wait for another 1000-2000Klms before I pass judgement.



Honda Australia replied to my complaint about the car pulling to the right.
They have issued a service notice, which my local service centre got; it's a checklist of procedures to follow in the event a car is pulling, which they followed.
Yes, Service Manager confirmed ... it pulled to one side (all the way to the other lane) in less than 6 sec @ 100Kph.
They rotated the tyres ... problem rectified (for now) @ 3300Klm.
However, I pointed out that they had already rotated the tyres @ 1000Klm, for exactly the same problem (it's on record) and asked if they would need another rotation in another 2000Klm?
The Service Manager replied that if so, it would confirm in his mind that it is the tyres and not a problem with the car.
The veering to the right is re-surfacing for my car @ approx 4900Klms. It's getting to the stage where I'm getting so frustrated that I'll just have to take it in again ... When I get some time, soon, hopefully...
This time ... I'll be hitting them up for five new tyres.

Well @ 5310 Klms I took the car in and asked for 5 new tyres ... NO GO!

However they did conduct Steps 9 and 10 of Service News SN003T06.
Step 9 Carry out 4 wheel alignment and check front cambers.
Result = Left 0.1 and Right 0.7
They loosened off all of the front subframe bolts and pryed the subframe (left or right) and pushed it as far forward as possible to attain as much castor as possible. Then making sure the steering wheel was straight they set the front and rear toe to maximum toe in.
Step 10 Test drive

Well ... I don't think it has fully rectified the issue.
I don't know if these adjustments will cause any other issues.
Will need some time to test it at speed.

If it is not ok, I'll be back .... step 16 in the process is to call the technical department to get authorization to replace bad tyres, so if I have to go through to step 16 I will.
.

[tony1234]

Had the car in again today
They put two new tyres on the front ... Bridgestone Potenza RE040's

rrrrrrr

I said I'll test it and see....

Drove off, all ok, then heh, it veers to the left .... stop, check the tyre pressure ....

Left Front 38psi and Right Front 39psi

I set them both back to 36psi....

Now .... it actually seems to be allright .... for now!

Gonna test it at speed and wait for another 1000-2000Klms before I pass judgement.
Theyr'e kidding aren't they?Still if u don't pay for them u don't get any say i suppose.:(

[V205]

Not AGAIN..... SSSSSSHISH!

They just wanna waste your time so much until you give up. Works most of the time too.



Had the car in again today
They put two new tyres on the front ... Bridgestone Potenza RE040's

rrrrrrr

I said I'll test it and see....

Drove off, all ok, then heh, it veers to the left .... stop, check the tyre pressure ....

Left Front 38psi and Right Front 39psi

I set them both back to 36psi....

Now .... it actually seems to be allright .... for now!

Gonna test it at speed and wait for another 1000-2000Klms before I pass judgement.

[Entity]

havent read the entire post but i went from my 16" stockies to 17" (2005) with the bridgestone potenza re040 and i am experiencing drifting to the RIGHT

never used to happen with 16", and started to drive the moment i put the 17" on, also as i slow down, the drifting gets worse and actually pulls the steering wheel a good 40 degrees to there right just as im stopping.

[badthing]

also as i slow down, the drifting gets worse and actually pulls the steering wheel a good 40 degrees to there right just as im stopping.

That's an accurate description of what I experience.

[aaronng]

When you are braking, and one wheel happens to be on a patch of road with worse condition, the steering wheel and car will pull to one side.

[avid]

havent read the entire post but i went from my 16" stockies to 17" (2005) with the bridgestone potenza re040 and i am experiencing drifting to the RIGHT

never used to happen with 16", and started to drive the moment i put the 17" on, also as i slow down, the drifting gets worse and actually pulls the steering wheel a good 40 degrees to there right just as im stopping.

Entity,i posted the same issue back on page 4 of this thread.You aint alone,except dont expect any help from Honda.I rang and emailed them and they didnt have the courtesy to reply.If you change your rims and tyres,even if they are genuine Lux ones,dont expect Honda to help.
Aaronng,i think what Entity and i are experiencing with the braking is an abnormality associated with the change in rims and/or tyres.I also drive a '96 Accord over the same uneven surface every second day,and i dont have the problem.Nor did i have it when i was running the 16" rims and non-directional Dunlops on my Euro.

[aaronng]

If you brake and you end up with a change in direction, it means one tyre has more grip to the surface than the other. It happens with my car with the 16" Dunlops because of suspension geometry (castor angle for steering return). It probably gets worse with the OEM Bridgestones.

[Entity]

Entity,i posted the same issue back on page 4 of this thread.You aint alone,except dont expect any help from Honda.I rang and emailed them and they didnt have the courtesy to reply.If you change your rims and tyres,even if they are genuine Lux ones,dont expect Honda to help.



this is true, i asked honda directly if installing genuine rims will void the warranty and they confirmed it.

i am now thinking of putting on my stockie rims everytime i go into a service, u never know when u might have a split boot or a loose suspension component that needs fixing.

[avid]

Entity,i hope Honda wern't trying to imply it will void the 'whole of car' warranty.
That just would'nt be true.I take it you mean they confirmed that the tyres wont be covered by Honda warranty in the situation you and i have put ourselves in by being so impudent as to disregard their advice and run the bigger rims on our Standard model Euros.

[aaronng]

Entity has a point though. They might blame your split boot or loose suspension on the heavier rims, which I think is ridiculous.

[Entity]

Entity,i hope Honda wern't trying to imply it will void the 'whole of car' warranty.
That just would'nt be true.I take it you mean they confirmed that the tyres wont be covered by Honda warranty in the situation you and i have put ourselves in by being so impudent as to disregard their advice and run the bigger rims on our Standard model Euros.

not the whole car, but basically if you do any kind of "modification" to your stock vehicle they will attribute fault to that as much as they can.. for example if you put on bigger wheels and then one of your shocks blow, they will blame it on the wheels even though it has very little to do with it unless u've cut ur springs.

similarly, if you put in a CAI and any engine issues come up, dont expect honda to fix it under warranty.

[tony1234]

not the whole car, but basically if you do any kind of "modification" to your stock vehicle they will attribute fault to that as much as they can.. for example if you put on bigger wheels and then one of your shocks blow, they will blame it on the wheels even though it has very little to do with it unless u've cut ur springs.

similarly, if you put in a CAI and any engine issues come up, dont expect honda to fix it under warranty.
In my experience it depends on the dealer.some are mod friendly some are wankers about it.:D

[monda]

Reported this problem to the dealer at first service and was advised that there is a known problem with some Accord Euros (MY05 Upgrade) in that they have a drift to the right. It is a problem with the tyres resulting from the wrong tyres being supplied by the manufacturer (American vs Asian spec or something like that).

[V205]

One would have thought that Honda would issue a notice to dealer on how to identify those wrong type of tyres used.

Or even a recall or some sort.


Reported this problem to the dealer at first service and was advised that there is a known problem with some Accord Euros (MY05 Upgrade) in that they have a drift to the right. It is a problem with the tyres resulting from the wrong tyres being supplied by the manufacturer (American vs Asian spec or something like that).

[Woogler]

After months of complaining about mine, they only replaced the front tyres! Even though they had rotated them front to rear in the trial and error stage and the problem persisted.

This tells me that on the first tyre rotation at a service, the pulling to the right will revisit due to the rear tyres having the same fault. Go figure... Honda....Surely their profit margins aren't that tight....

[yfin]

example if you put on bigger wheels and then one of your shocks blow, they will blame it on the wheels even though it has very little to do with it unless u've cut ur springs.

I would have thought if you put on heavier rims your shocks and brakes have much more work to do. So it is not really outrageous for Honda to deny a blown shock warranty claim if you have 19" heavy chromies. I would say it is entirely fair. Sometimes people double the weight of the rim and tyre package and expect every component to last like OEM.

[yfin]

After months of complaining about mine, they only replaced the front tyres! Even though they had rotated them front to rear in the trial and error stage and the problem persisted.

This tells me that on the first tyre rotation at a service, the pulling to the right will revisit due to the rear tyres having the same fault. Go figure... Honda....Surely their profit margins aren't that tight....

Hmmm. But what do they say is the cause of the problem?



Reported this problem to the dealer at first service and was advised that there is a known problem with some Accord Euros (MY05 Upgrade) in that they have a drift to the right. It is a problem with the tyres resulting from the wrong tyres being supplied by the manufacturer (American vs Asian spec or something like that).


It does seem strange that we are the only market that has 225/45/17 fitted to the various 7" Honda rims sold for the CL9/CL7. Even th Euro R has 215s.

[tony1234]

After months of complaining about mine, they only replaced the front tyres! Even though they had rotated them front to rear in the trial and error stage and the problem persisted.

This tells me that on the first tyre rotation at a service, the pulling to the right will revisit due to the rear tyres having the same fault. Go figure... Honda....Surely their profit margins aren't that tight....
They're hoping by dragging their feet long enough(in changing all 4 tyres)that you'll get sick of complaining and go away!!!DON'T.PS.i bet they gave you RE 040s as replacements.How frustrating.:thumbdwn:

[Woogler]

They admitted it was the tyres. And yes, they replaced the front two..with the same oem type :(

[yfin]

They admitted it was the tyres. And yes, they replaced the front two..with the same oem type :(

Have you thought about trading in your 3 new Bridgestone tyres now (inc spare in boot) for something different? Or buying 1 more and selling the set on ebay as effectively "new"? The oldest tyre can be your spare.

Something to think about.

[tony1234]

Have you thought about trading in your 3 new Bridgestone tyres now (inc spare in boot) for something different? Or buying 1 more and selling the set on ebay as effectively "new"? The oldest tyre can be your spare.

Something to think about.
Good idea.You'll get a reasonable changover price on a new set of tyres from a good tyre shop.Go to a few and get some quotes,you've got nothing to lose!!

[Woogler]

Thanks guys, but my tyres were changed a couple months ago.

[JohnL]

Hello, new here, first post on OzHonda.

I’ve been reading this thread with some interest, and FWIW thought I’d chime in with some thoughts.

Be warned, this is a long meandering post (so long I had to post it in two installments!), probably containing errors, omissions, and in need of a thorough editing. I certainly didn’t intend to write so much, but the TV is boring tonight and I have nothing to read! I hope some find it at least interesting and maybe of some use. I make no claims to always being correct, and all statements are only ‘IMO’!

I’m no expert, but I have some experience with not dissimilar issues, though with racing karts more than cars. At any rate the principles are more or less the same, but keep in mind that karts have no rear geometry adjustments so when I discuss rear end settings I’m speculating to some degree.

With 30 pages (!!!) of posts on this topic I’m surprised nobody has provided full details of their wheel alignments (seems a lot of wheel alignment going on out there!). Someone posted their front camber angles but neglected to specify whether they were negative or positive, so I’m afraid the info is useless beyond telling me that (IMO) there is enough front camber difference on this car to probably cause a pulling problem, one way or the other.

Please post full alignment settings (at least: toe, camber, caster, front and rear where applicable) to see if there might be any alignment anomalies common in these cases.

IMO it would be highly unlikely that all these problems (apparently instances of the same problem) under discussion could be caused by faulty tyres, or tyres of a certain design over another, although it’s quite possible that an underlying problem could be more manifest (i.e. exaggerated) with tyre brand X than tyre brand Y, due to differences in case design (sidewall casing stiffness, tread pattern / depth etc).

Two identical (and properly fitted with reference to the coloured circumferential lines) tyres on the same axle line ought to perform the same regardless of their design, i.e. I can’t see how they could create a pull on their own account (though I’ve been wrong before!).

A clue may lie in the apparent common denominator that most of these problems seem to be strongest with somewhat worn tyres, not discounting that some have had the problem even with new ones.

Ever notice how new tyres tend to make the steering lighter (and less responsive!) than older more worn ones do? This is because the tread blocks distort (‘squirm’) more the taller they are, and as a result a newer tyre will more easily generate a greater slip angle than an identical but more worn tyre (this relates to tyres with tread blocks, not racing slicks).

What I’m suggesting is that there may be an underlying alignment problem(s) that might be somewhat masked by newer tyres, but becomes increasingly apparent as the tyres wear down and become more ‘directional’ (i.e. tend to operate at relatively lower slip angles). I’ve had this problem with a couple of cars I’ve owned, i.e. ‘pulling’ car, fit new tyres, pull (almost) gone, only to return strongly later as tread wears down.

What causes a ‘pull’? The most likely causes are I think:
Unequal camber.
Unequal caster (front).
Unequal (rear) toe.
Tyres (on an axle line) being worn in substantially different amounts / ways, or with significantly different pressures, or tyres of different design or differences in construction (i.e. poor quality control).
Sagged spring, or anything causing a significantly uneven side to side or diagonal weight distribution.

If there is a camber alignment issue that causes a tyre (left to its own devices) to ‘want’ to roll in a curved rather than a straight line then it will do so while creating no slip angle (i.e. camber causes a wheel to ‘steer’ without creating a slip angle), then to steer it straight means you must create a slip angle by ‘forcing’ the wheel away from the direction it ‘wants’ to travel in.

This may be acceptable (if not ideal, i.e. a compromise to an end) if the affect is equal side to side, but not a good thing if unequal. Beyond the annoyance and possible ill handling and directional stability affects, it can contribute to overheating (more of a consideration in a racing application) and to tyre wear (i.e. the tyre is in effect always ‘cornering’ slightly even when the car is travelling in a straight line).

This could conceivably be caused by differences between two apparently identical tyres, but IMO this is very unlikely unless the treads are worn in significantly different ways (which could also be contributing to the problem becoming increasingly worse the older the tyre gets). Different wear could be either one tyre with a lot of tread and the other with less, or one worn ‘flat’ and the other worn ‘tapered’ across the tread.

If faulty tyres (internal differences caused by indifferent quality control) were the culprit (as has been suggested as a possibility with the B/Stones) then it would be logical to assume that we would find the pulling problem divided equally (more or less) between pulls to the left AND to the right, but we seem to have a very, very strong statistical bias here (in an anecdotal sort of way) with pulling to the right. I suspect this alone most probably rules out tyres as the source.

If we assume the tyres are identical on a given car then this leaves only alignment problems, and these include:

Front:
unequal camber, unequal caster (rearward lean of the steering axis), unequal KPI (king pin inclination – the inward lean of steering axis, also known as SAI or steering axis inclination), unequal front ride height.

Note that that when I refer to the ‘steering axis’ that I mean two angles (caster and KPI, being 2 dimensional views of the steering axis from particular perspectives, side and front on) combined as a single line in 3D space.

Rear:
Unequal camber, unequal toe, unequal rear ride height.

Wheelbase shorter / longer side to side may be a problem, but I suspect it would have to be a quite substantial difference.

Toe:
Toe can only cause a pull if the toe problem is at the rear. Even though some wheel alignment sheets will give individual figures for left and right front toe, it’s not actually possible to have unequal front toe as front toe always equalises (relative to the chassis) when travelling in a straight line. This assumes that there is no problem causing a pull, in which case front toe may become unequal as the driver ‘corrects’ it.

What I mean is that because both front wheels can be steered and are connected through the steering linkage, front toe is only relative to the angle between both front wheels and not directly relative to the chassis. On its own front toe cannot cause a pull, but rear toe is a different story. The rear wheels are not free to articulate in a ‘steered’ manner (i.e. rear toe cannot ‘equalise’ relative to the chassis as the toes are fixed) and the toe angle of each rear wheel is thus directly relative to the chassis as much as it is relative to the other rear wheel. Unequal rear toe can probably cause a pull, and can definitely cause the car to ‘crab’ (probably cause a pull because it causes crabbing).

It’s possible that front toe setting might to some degree mask the affect of another problem, just as good tread depth may mask another problem, without eliminating it.

Camber:
Camber creates a condition known as ‘camber thrust’, being the tendency of a cambered wheel to follow a path that is curved in the direction of the camber lean rather than the direction in which it is actually pointing. This is easy to see if you watch a rolling coin, i.e. if the coin is leaning (cambered) it will roll in the direction of the lean.

A cambered wheel will only follow a straight path if subjected to an outside force, e.g. an equal but opposite camber thrust force from the other tyre on its axle line. In this case the wheel will (‘unwillingly’) roll in a straight path, but will generate a slip angle even when the car isn’t cornering.

This is because the axis of rotation (of a cambered wheel) is slanted and intersects the ground at some point to one side of the wheel, and means the wheel is in effect part of a rolling cone (roll a tapered glass and see what happens). If no camber is present then the rolling axis is parallel to the ground and doesn’t intersect with the ground at any point, so the wheel is in effect part of a rolling cylinder, and will naturally roll straight.

If the wheels (at an axle line) are both equally cambered then the camber thrust will be in balance side to side, and the car will track straight (assuming no road camber and no other problems), though it may tend to tramline more the more camber is present.

If one wheel is cambered more than the other then the car will pull in the direction of the strongest camber, e.g. if we have zero camber on the left and some degree of positive camber on the right then the car will pull to the right, or, if we have zero camber on the right and some degree of negative camber on the left then the car will also pull to the right. This may be an issue whether front or rear, but probably more problematic at the front.

Its possible for a car to pull due to unequal weight distribution affecting camber. Imagine a VERY heavy driver in a small softly sprung car; the car sags to the right under the load and gains negative camber on the right front wheel. Theory suggests that this car may now pull to the left because of the RF wheel camber thrust. The RF front may also ‘try’ to point toward the left due to an effect related to caster and scrub radius (see below). In such a situation we may have a pull to the left caused by two different problems created by a single cause (i.e. too much right side weight).

Its possible for a car to have the camber on both sides within spec but to still have a significant problem with unequal camber. For instance the front camber spec for a 90/94 Accord is 0° + or – 1°, so in theory we could have say 1° positive camber on one side and 1° negative on the other and still be within factory spec. However, any wheel alignment tech who thought 2° side to side camber difference was OK would be… not very smart.

End of part 1 (apparently the forum software won't accept anything over 15000 words)

[JohnL]

Caster:
Caster has more than one effect. Firstly, by slanting the steering axis backwards it creates another geometry called ‘trail’ (i.e. ‘mechanical’ trail, as opposed to ‘pneumatic’ trail which is a product of tyre case distortion and only of concern with substantially unequal tyre pressures). This means the steering axis intersects the ground at a point that is in front of the centre of the contact patch. Trail can be created by other means allowing more trail with less caster, i.e. having the stub axle located behind the steering axis at stub height, but most cars have the stub located on the steering axis (as viewed from the side).

Trail is what causes shopping trolley ‘casters’ to track straight (yeah, I know… they don’t!), so ‘casters’ are misnamed (they have no caster angle whatsoever!), they should really be called ‘trails’! When we drive a car in reverse the trail is effectively negative, which is why the steering is so unstable when reversing, i.e. the contact patch is ‘in front’ of the steering axis, but ‘wants’ to be behind it.

If caster is unequal side to side then trail will also be unequal and the self centring effect will be unequal and most cars will pull toward the side with greater caster (this may be opposite with cars that have ‘negative scrub radius’).

However, this particular effect (pulling with unequal caster) occurs only in conjunction with ‘scrub radius’, SR being the degree to which the centre of the contact patch is laterally offset from the steering axis at ground level, i.e. extrapolated steering axis intersecting the ground to the front of (trail) and to the inside (SR) of contact patch centre, most commonly. Most cars have positive SR, which places the steering axis to the inside of the contact patch centre point.

Scrub radius is in effect a ‘lever arm’ through which longitudinal forces acting at the contact patch are fed into the steering through the steering axis and on up to the steering wheel (a torque force acting around the steering axis). The greater the scrub radius the more strongly the driver will feel the longitudinal forces generated at each contact patch (when unequal), i.e. the more strongly the driver will feel any difference in the longitudinal forces acting at each contact patch.

This is because the presence of SR effectively means that in order for the front wheels to turn they must also move backward or forward, which is not so much the case if SR is small or zero.

If there were zero scrub radius (not common) then the self aligning effect would still be stronger on one side (if caster etc were unequal) but the driver wouldn’t feel it as each side would ‘share’ all of its self aligning tendency with the other side (if that makes sense, hard to explain!). If a car has negative scrub radius (a few cars, e.g. Holden Camira), then the effect is opposite (neg SR is when the steering axis intersects the ground to the outside of the contact patch centre). Different cars with different scrub radius will react more or less strongly, and possibly in opposite ways to unequal caster angle.

Cars with heavy steering are likely to have (all else being equal) a lot of caster angle / trail and / or a lot of scrub radius.

Note on scrub radius: SR is a nominal geometry, i.e. its value is X on the drawing board and on a perfectly flat road, but if the tyre encounters road camber or other irregularities it value effectively changes (x+ or X-) because the centre of loading on the contact patch moves laterally across the face of the patch as it traverses any irregularity other than a symmetrical bump. The value of SR (X) also changes with any change in camber angle caused by bumps or steering input (caster and KPI cause steered camber changes).

This is a bigger problem with wider treads simply because there is more tread width across which the centre of loading can move. Its this change in effective scrub radius that causes tramlining. Stiffer tyre casings also can make this problem more severe as the tread will conform less readily to the road irregularity.

In some cases the effective scrub radius at a given front wheel can readily change from a positive value to a negative, causing substantial steering problems on rough roads (e.g. Holden Camira’s do this so badly they can unexpectedly rip the steering wheel out of your hands, horrible!). SR is what causes the steering to ‘kickback’ over bumps etc, but does contribute to steering ‘feel’.

Caster also raises the inside front of the chassis with steering input, physically lifting the chassis higher on the side to the inside of the corner. This effect only occurs when there is also SR, and more so with more SR (and greater caster). This also contributes to a self aligning tendency as gravity tries to pull the chassis back to its lowest possible point, which is only possible with the steering at the straight ahead (KPI also does this, though the effect isn’t exactly the same because for a given steered wheel angle KPI lifts the chassis equally on both sides, not more on one side as with caster).

If the chassis is crabbing because of (e.g.) unequal rear toe, then to travel straight the steering must be at some angle, and this will lift the front of the chassis on one side, and this in turn might create a pull.

Front ride height:
Assuming equal lateral weight distribution, if front ride height is significantly different than all three other corners then we can assume that the higher side will be carrying a greater % of front weight, and that the diagonally opposite rear wheel will carry a greater % of rear weight (note: this effect will be stronger with stiffer springs). If we assume that the higher side is the left front, then this wheel will be the heaviest front wheel, and the right rear will be the heaviest rear wheel.

This may (in some degree) counteract unequal lateral front weight distribution caused by (e.g.) driver weight, but we need to keep in mind that it would amplify rear weight differences and may have unwanted affects on camber angles, which may cause problems of their own…

If we assume reasonably even weight distribution, and depending on the values of various geometries, the left front of the chassis being higher may create a tendency to pull to the right. With a positive scrub radius (typical of most cars) and some caster angle there will be a tendency for a weighted wheel (chassis weight) to turn inward around the caster angle of the steering axis as gravity attempts to pull the chassis toward its lowest possible average ride height on both sides. This effect would be strongest at the heavier wheel, thus a pull away from the heaviest front wheel toward the lighter.

Keep in mind that the caster angle is rearward leaning, and that the weight is carried (as an average) in the centre of the contact patch (assuming zero camber), but that the steering axis is offset to the inside of the centre of the contact patch. This creates a tendency for the wheel to ‘want’ to rise (relative to the chassis), and thus to ‘want’ to turn around the caster angle of the steering axis.

With equally weighted wheels this is balanced side to side, but if one wheel is significantly heavier then the effect will be unbalanced and could conceivably cause a noticeable pull. However, I would normally expect this effect to be quite minor unless the side to side weight difference and/or scrub radius and/or caster angle are quite large (e.g. it’s a very strong effect with karts as they use very substantial caster and scrub radius, so if the chassis is twisted they can pull to one side quite badly). Stiffer springs are likely to make this worse.

Some of you mention that the Euro does have a ‘weight jacking’ effect built into the front end, and I have no idea whether it does or doesn’t. It doesn’t seem a good idea to me (especially as millions of cars will track perfectly straight without this!), much better to align the car with driver in situ, like they (should) do with racing cars! If the Euro does have this weight jacking built in then it might be interesting to find what component is responsible (spring, strut mounting, tower height….), and modify it to make the car level and see what happens…?

At any rate this is way too much waffling on and probably more confusing than enlightening. To finish up I’ll relate a little wheel alignment story:

Case study, my car:
A 91 Accord (owned for about a year) that used to pull to the left in a most irritating manner (more so on more worn tyres). Recent alignment showed:

Right caster =1.67°
Left caster =2.83°
Right camber = 1.14° negative
Left camber = 0.16° negative
Right wheelbase = 35mm shorter than left.

I could only conclude accident damage to the right front… bugger!

Not to be defeated, this was initially ‘adjusted’ by means of carefully shortening the right side radius rod by 11mm, which fixed the caster difference and most of the wheelbase difference. Pulling problem improved but still there.

Camber problem then addressed by ‘slotting’ the four inner mounting holes in the left upper wishbone by means of a rat tail file, in effect shortening the left wishbone by 10mm (this may be a bit dodgy in that its now theoretically possible for the wishbone to move on the slotted holes, but the bolts are tight, I’ve used big washers and the forces here are not great, so I’m not worried!).

Result; car now has (near equal) a bit over 1° neg camber and near equal caster both sides, has zero pull and steers / handles as well as can be expected with stock springs and dampers (too soft!!!).

PS Some of you have problems with steering wheel position. Some people don’t seem to mind this, but it drives me to distraction if the wheel isn’t pointing straight!!

Hope this helps:

Assuming the actual alignment is OK, to centralise the steering wheel you need to adjust each tie rod equally to centralise the steering column to the rack. E.g. assuming the steering rack is behind the front axle line, if the steering wheel points to the right then you need to lengthen the left tie rod and shorten the right tie rod by equal amounts (vice versa if the wheel points left, or if the steering rack is in front of the axle line).

If done carefully this won’t change the toe setting to any significant degree, though if the problem is large then it conceivably might (?). First try shortening / lengthening the tie rods by ¼ turn for a small steering wheel misalignment, or half a turn + for larger misalignment.

This is quick and easy to do, and you can access the tie rod adjustment through the wheel arch (at least on my old Accord) just by turning the steering to full lock (don’t even need ramps!). Make sure you mark the tie rods with paint or whatever (and maybe make notes) to keep track of what you’ve done! You probably won’t get it spot on first try, but two or maybe three goes ought to get you there.

[Omotesando]

I generally agree with the above.

I'm of the belief that the tyres are only the 2ndary problem which exaggerates the underlying problem as well. Well anyway, its because it is much more logical. Luckily someone could explain in more detail than I can.

When he mentioned that NEWER tyres are taller and thus won't have as directional a pull as a more worn tyre, if you compare a 17" tyre profile to a 16" tyre profile, the exact same connection can be made. 17" is lower profile, so it will try to steer the car more than a taller, 16" tyre. Secondly the 17" tyre is wider as well, which again manifests the problem more. For some reason someone disagreed with me before and said the biggest difference between the 16" and 17" inch tyres is the construction and pattern, without taking the 'size and dimensions' of things into perspective. :o

[tony1234]

I'm sure there is a fair amount of truth in the last 2 posts but at the end of the day it's not up to the guys that have had the drifting/pulling problem to have to go to such lengths to get the problem fixed.Its Honda Aust.that must do this in depth analysis to sort out the problem not the customer.Its obvious the tyres do not suit the Euro front end setup or whatever you want ot call it so HA should just change the brand/type of tyre for the customers that are having these issues.I dont have the problem cause i changed my tyres from new.I get NO drifting/pulling at all.My car is also lowered,you would think that would make the problem worse.Bottom line HA should just change brand/type of tyre on these problem cars.

[monda]

Reported this problem to the dealer at first service and was advised that there is a known problem with some Accord Euros (MY05 Upgrade) in that they have a drift to the right. It is a problem with the tyres resulting from the wrong tyres being supplied by the manufacturer (American vs Asian spec or something like that).

Good news! Honda agreed there was a problem with the tyres and replaced both front tyres.:)

[sendok]

Good news! Honda agreed there was a problem with the tyres and replaced both front tyres.:)

they replaced with OEM tyres yea? good 4 u man..

anyway, is this problem found in 05 upgrade model only? how about 06 or before 05?

[badthing]

Well, i just got my car back from the 10,000km service this morning & at normal driving speed (around 60kph) it still drifts to the right slightly. At <20kph as i'm slowing down at a right-hand bend/corner in the road, the steering wheel pulls heavily to the right.
I was told that they performed a wheel alignment on the car..

[Euro76]

Yeah my Euro steering drifted to right as well, even on the straight line. I guess I have to do wheel alignment.

[tony1234]

Good news! Honda agreed there was a problem with the tyres and replaced both front tyres.:)
Thats good.The only problem is what happens when at approx.10k you rotate the tyres?Same problem again i'll bet.:(

[Woogler]

Thats good.The only problem is what happens when at approx.10k you rotate the tyres?Same problem again i'll bet.:(

Dead right. HA only replaced my front tyres as well. The local service manager agreed that the problem will return once my rotation is done in the next month. He can't seem to get HA to provide the replacement for the rear two tyres at this time. It should be noted that during the fault finding process some months ago, the tyres were rotated and the problem was the same. Pulling hard to the right. So the current rear tyres are faulty and have been identified by the service manager as such. Interesting warranty policy Honda!

[tony1234]

Dead right. HA only replaced my front tyres as well. The local service manager agreed that the problem will return once my rotation is done in the next month. He can't seem to get HA to provide the replacement for the rear two tyres at this time. It should be noted that during the fault finding process some months ago, the tyres were rotated and the problem was the same. Pulling hard to the right. So the current rear tyres are faulty and have been identified by the service manager as such. Interesting warranty policy Honda!
Out of interest what brand of tyres did they give you?RE040s i'll bet.:thumbdwn: :thumbdwn: :thumbdwn:

[Woogler]

Correct. Its like throwing petrol on a fire to put it out...

[tony1234]

Correct. Its like throwing petrol on a fire to put it out...
Dickheads.I suggest you trade the 2 new ones you have and the spare(which should be new)and get 4 new tyres (another brand of course).

[tiger266]

Did you guys know that roads are not horizontally prefect? They are more of a triangular shape.

[Woogler]

Had 10k service. Back tyres were put on the front. It pulls to the right again. Waiting for HA to do something about it..... It is like herding cats!!

[tony1234]

Had 10k service. Back tyres were put on the front. It pulls to the right again. Waiting for HA to do something about it..... It is like herding cats!!
Surprise surprise!!!!:(

[Woogler]

New tyres getting fitted tomorrow. I had no choice on the type due to it being a warranty job. Getting a wheel alignment as well.

Does anyone think that having faulty tyres on the rear of the car, which are tracking to the right, would have some effect on the car? Even on the rear? I am asking because when you get a wheel alingment, the rear wheels are done, so I am thinking it must have some bearing on the cars tracking. Any thoughts?

[tanalasta]

Some tyres, especially uni-directional ones like the REO40's do track slightly on one side. Tyre manufacturers sometimes draw a line to indicate which side the tyre tends to drift towards and the trick is finding the same tyre in a different batch that drifts slightly to the other side. If you luck out then the tyre may drift.

Hmm... then again - everybody's car seems to drift to the right.

Mine stopped being a problem (don't know what happened) and after the last wheel alignment and balancing it tracks perfectly straight.

[tony1234]

New tyres getting fitted tomorrow. I had no choice on the type due to it being a warranty job. Getting a wheel alignment as well.

Does anyone think that having faulty tyres on the rear of the car, which are tracking to the right, would have some effect on the car? Even on the rear? I am asking because when you get a wheel alingment, the rear wheels are done, so I am thinking it must have some bearing on the cars tracking. Any thoughts?
I suggest after you get the 2 new tyres go to a good tyre shop and trade them in(inc the spare which should be new!)on a set of new tyres,obviously another brand.Sure it'll cost you a bit(maybe $200 i guess) but you'll have better tyres and no more bullshit drifting issues.Just my opinion.:)

[Woogler]

New tyres fitted. Had an alingment done too. The car is driving like a new car should finally! It is now tracking perfectly. Now on Monday I will insist they replace the spare tyre as well.

[cgspot]

Mine was drifting badly to right and of course they only replaced the front two tyres after a lot of mucking around (which did fix the problem). Then at the 10,000 service I asked that they swap the old backs onto the fronts and the drifting came back. They have given me two new fronts today (4 in all now) and I need some time to see if the drifting has gone away. Yes they are same Re040's but assure me that these tyres have a Neutral Bias whereby the old one's had a Positive Bias, (However, I can't find anything about positive, neutral or negative bias in tyres to explain it)

However, it might have a lot to do with "runout" see: http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html

[SPQR]

The standard Dunlops on the standard 16 x 6.5 rims fitted to my car were great but the car tended to wander in all directions at high speed (180km/h+ in Northern Territory before much hated 130km/h speed limit introduced). I contacted Whiteline Suspensions and, as I had done with my previous car, I sent them my original rear anti-sway bar so that they could make a stiffer bar (that they now sell it to other CL9 owners). The new bar made little difference to straight-line stabilty at high speed but it sure gave a nicer turn-in to corners! I had tried Performance Rebel 17 x 7 wheels with 45mm offset with Bridgestone RE040 tyres but the car tramlined as no car should. I thought that the problem might be caused by the 45mm offset (55mm standard). I then purchased a set of the current 10(?) spoke Euro Luxury 17 x 7 wheels. I fitted the used RE040 from the borrowed Rebel rims but the tramlining persisted. I fitted new Dunlop SportMaxx 225/45R17 tyres ($288 each). Great tyre. Tramlining reduced substantially. I don't think it is the tyres that cause the tramlining but rather how worn-out the tyres are. As far as the "positive, neutral or negative bias " goes, they must be talking about the suspension toe (positive, neutral or negative bias ). Should be neutral at front and toe-in of 2mm at rear.

[yfin]

The standard Dunlops on the standard 16 x 6.5 rims fitted to my car were great but the car tended to wander in all directions at high speed (180km/h+ in Northern Territory before much hated 130km/h speed limit introduced). I contacted Whiteline Suspensions and, as I had done with my previous car, I sent them my original rear anti-sway bar so that they could make a stiffer bar (that they now sell it to other CL9 owners). The new bar made little difference to straight-line stabilty at high speed but it sure gave a nicer turn-in to corners! I had tried Performance Rebel 17 x 7 wheels with 45mm offset with Bridgestone RE040 tyres but the car tramlined as no car should. I thought that the problem might be caused by the 45mm offset (55mm standard). I then purchased a set of the current 10(?) spoke Euro Luxury 17 x 7 wheels. I fitted the used RE040 from the borrowed Rebel rims but the tramlining persisted. I fitted new Dunlop SportMaxx 225/45R17 tyres ($288 each). Great tyre. Tramlining reduced substantially. I don't think it is the tyres that cause the tramlining but rather how worn-out the tyres are. As far as the "positive, neutral or negative bias " goes, they must be talking about the suspension toe (positive, neutral or negative bias ). Should be neutral at front and toe-in of 2mm at rear.

If you definatley want less tramlining you should try something with softer sidewalls - I also found improvement moving to a non-directional tyre (but that could be tyre specific rather than a general rule)

[LXRY]

Sorry all for not being here for a while, alot has happened to me since (moved house, No internet, plus very busy with work, stress over my car drifting etc. etc.)

I pushed Honda hard about this problem, and had a meeting with

[yfin edit *** edited name of the person you met at Honda as you have called them a not so pleasant word...]




He couldn't answer my question..........If they fixed the problem which they assured me they did ("NOT"), then what was the CAUSE ?

All he gave me was umm, this, umm, that....pfft what a loser couldn't lie if his life depended on it.

These guys at Honda are all bummies, they colaborate with each other, so they get there stories straight, yes they are one big happy family at Honda Aust & dealerships......

I can tell you that Honda are pushing sales, at what ever cost.....and RE-CALLS are a BIG NO NO.

Anyhow Leigh offered me tyres out of a good will gesture, which I accepted reluctantly, but what the heck these guys caused me grief so F*%# 'em....

Drove the car like that for a while, after being to many steering and suspension places to talk about my problems, tried some things, still no good.

They all put it down to tyres, by the way.....

I had noticed that one of the places I had took my car too had pumped my front tyres to 36 psi (hard). Someone had mentioned this in a previous post.
Wasn't as bad but still very noticable still, drove it for a while like that until I put new springs in my car (lowered, Eibachs) then was getting great big thuds on bad bumps, checked tyre pressure, found it was too much put it back to 30-32psi problem went away, but pulling to the right was back as it was before Very Very bad!!!

My steering wheel is still out after so many 1000's of attempts....my steering straightens when road cambers to the right, funny huh?

All this grief this car has caused me :(

If anyone is thinking of buying a euro think twice trust me not worth it

Customer satisfaction you reckon....Worst iv'e come accross.

Anyway I went to claim my new tyres only because I am going through a process of elimination, (change the tyres see what happens) you never know.
They told me that leigh had "hit it on the head" and his good will gesture flew out the door, because I had not taken it up before that my car must be running fine, so i didn't need them. What a loser !!

Well stay tuned for a new thread called "KNOW YOUR HONDA DEALER" as I will be giving detailed information on my dealership and it's staff, time to name names, Ozhonda style !!!!



If you are in Victoria please call this person as he is the one who has last word on your car.


Honda Australia District Service Manager
Southern Region

Leigh McNamara
Direct phone number 92855570
Mobile number 0419 336 183
email leighm@honda.com.au

[tony1234]

Sorry all for not being here for a while, alot has happened to me since (moved house, No internet, plus very busy with work, stress over my car drifting etc. etc.)

I pushed Honda hard about this problem, and had a meeting with

[yfin edit *** edited name of the person you met at Honda as you have called them a not so pleasant word...]

He couldn't answer my question..........If they fixed the problem which they assured me they did ("NOT"), then what was the CAUSE ?

All he gave me was umm, this, umm, that....pfft what a loser couldn't lie if his life depended on it.

These guys at Honda are all bummies, they colaborate with each other, so they get there stories straight, yes they are one big happy family at Honda Aust & dealerships......

I can tell you that Honda are pushing sales, at what ever cost.....and RE-CALLS are a BIG NO NO.

Anyhow Leigh offered me tyres out of a good will gesture, which I accepted reluctantly, but what the heck these guys caused me grief so F*%# 'em....

Drove the car like that for a while, after being to many steering and suspension places to talk about my problems, tried some things, still no good.

They all put it down to tyres, by the way.....

I had noticed that one of the places I had took my car too had pumped my front tyres to 36 psi (hard). Someone had mentioned this in a previous post.
Wasn't as bad but still very noticable still, drove it for a while like that until I put new springs in my car (lowered, Eibachs) then was getting great big thuds on bad bumps, checked tyre pressure, found it was too much put it back to 30-32psi problem went away, but pulling to the right was back as it was before Very Very bad!!!

My steering wheel is still out after so many 1000's of attempts....my steering straightens when road cambers to the right, funny huh?

All this grief this car has caused me :(

If anyone is thinking of buying a euro think twice trust me not worth it

Customer satisfaction you reckon....Worst iv'e come accross.

Anyway I went to claim my new tyres only because I am going through a process of elimination, (change the tyres see what happens) you never know.
They told me that leigh had "hit it on the head" and his good will gesture flew out the door, because I had not taken it up before that my car must be running fine, so i didn't need them. What a loser !!

Well stay tuned for a new thread called "KNOW YOUR HONDA DEALER" as I will be giving detailed information on my dealership and it's staff, time to name names, Ozhonda style !!!!
It's got to be those piece of shit RE040s:thumbdwn: (or they're largely to blame).Ive got the same car as you (06 man lux with 17s).The day after i bought my car i changed the RE040s for Conti sport contact 2s.15k later NO pulling/drifting at all!!!Plus i have aftermarket rims(17s)lowered,Bilstein/Eibach shocks/springs and i'm running 40psi in the tyres.Ride those pricks hard,get a set of new tyres(RE040s i'll bet they'll give you)as soon as you get them fitted go to a tyer place that sells decent tyres and trade them in for something else(Dunlop Sport Maxx i hear are good)and i'll bet your problems will be over!Let us know how you go!

[yfin]

Well stay tuned for a new thread called "KNOW YOUR HONDA DEALER" as I will be giving detailed information on my dealership and it's staff, time to name names, Ozhonda style !!!!

Nah you can't do that if you want to "name and shame" as we can't have any potentially defamatory comments on this site.

This gives you no comfort but I just rotated my tyres last week at 45,000kms and now I am getting a drift to the right (never had that before - had some drift to the left previously but never to the right). Tyres are 15,000kms old. Of perhaps some interest - the tyres I have are non-directional so I did a diaganol switch rather than front to back like you would do with the OEM tyres. I wonder whether the left to right has highlighted differences in tread wear between the two sides (differences not visible from what I can see).

I am putting it down to tyre wear and wheel alignment at this stage as it has been a good 15,000kms since an alignment. Running aftermarket rims with Dunlop 3000A tyres. Not doing anything at this stage to rectify as I will need an alignment after I fit an Ingalls camber kit anyway. I also think if I run the tyres down in the new configuration it may correct itself.

[SPQR]

32 pages in this thread so far. Sounds like a real and serious problem that Honda is ignoring.

Car manufacturers/importers divide and conquer like any other business focused on the bottom line: By continually denying the existence of a problem and, where individual owners make something of it, they blame something else, like the tyres.

Curious that Honda continues to fit Bridgestone RE040's to the Luxury. If the problem is the tyres, then they wouldn't be fitting the same tyre OE. Therefore, the problem is more likely to be suspension design. That means Honda would have to fix it. Good enough reason to deny that there is a problem. Imagine the cost of a recall.

Companies, like governments, also use the privacy laws to stifle debate. By dividing people so that they don't know that others are experiencing the same situation, they have better control.

They did not count on the Internet providing discussion fora. Although anyone following the proposed web content laws would see that the Australian Government, to appease big business and their own government ends, are attempting to censor the internet.

If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth. Everyone should read George Orwell's book "1984". It's where we get our "Orwellian" expressions from; like "Big Brother is watching."

[aaronng]

I suspect that a stock brand new Euro has -1 or -2mm toe in on the right wheel just to get the car to drive straight. When you do an alignment, the tyre shop puts it back to 0mm and you end up with pulling to the right.

BTW, I just did an alignment, and my car pulled to the right, with the steering wheel pointing to the left to keep the car going straight (I have 16" stock Dunlops). Putting in -0.3mm almost solved all the pulling to the right, but the steering wheel still points slightly to the left.

[avid]

I wonder if 32 pages is close to a record number of posts on the OzHonda site for one particular problem. Mabye one of the mods can let us know.
Another course of action about this issue might be for us to tell Honda Australia that we intend to try and get the story into the media.They might not give a "fig",but then again, it aint going to help sales is it.

[yfin]

Another course of action about this issue might be for us to tell Honda Australia that we intend to try and get the story into the media.They might not give a "fig",but then again, it aint going to help sales is it.

I wouldn't be interested in going to the media- to be honest with you it doesn't really bother me that much. I watch the road - not where I am holding the steering wheel.

If someone is really peeved about this I would recommend you find a shop that is prepared to test different alignment settings outside the Honda specs. eg - why not try the TSX alignment settings? - very few of them complain about any pulling or drifting. I would also be surprised if a place like Whiteline couldn't solve this.

[aaronng]

If someone is really peeved about this I would recommend you find a shop that is prepared to test different alignment settings outside the Honda specs. eg - why not try the TSX alignment settings? - very few of them complain about any pulling or drifting. I would also be surprised if a place like Whiteline couldn't solve this.

Yeah, at 0mm - 0mm, my left wheel pointed straight, while my right wheel pointed a few mm out to the right. Tell them to put -1mm or so on the right wheel to compensate. :)

[avid]

Not sure if the TSX's are not having this problem.Ive had one of the US forum members PM me about our problem in Aust.It seems that mabye they didnt have the problem in earlier(pre 2006) models,but now somethings changed.

[LXRY]

Another course of action about this issue might be for us to tell Honda Australia that we intend to try and get the story into the media.They might not give a "fig",but then again, it aint going to help sales is it.


Yes I totally agree the media should be involved as a last resort. We missed the boat though (International Motor Show and Grand Prix. Honda showed some "Ruthless Marketing")

I personally think that OzHonda, If they don't mind, should contact Honda Japan and Honda Aust. ( Starting from the the executive level at Honda Aust. and to the excecutive level at Honda Japan ) about this issue, explaining to them that their reputation of "Honda Reliability" in Australia is being tainted and that the marketing they are doing here in Aust. won't work if all aspects of of the chain arn't fulfilled.....

For example:

The Product it self ---> Manufacturing of the product ---> Marketing of the product ---> And of course "Customer Satisfaction of the product" which is the last link and the most important of them all !!

Without customer satisfaction the rest are all a waste of time and money. This causes a trickle effect on future sales because the majority of buyers in the future will be " US " the customer who already own one or more of their product(s) and are satisfied with it, which in turn will make us buy again if we are satisfied with it, not too mention others along the way as word spreads of satisfaction of their product mainly by us, mind you.

At the moment with the amount of competition in the motoring industry, there isn't much room for error.

Toyota has built a solid customer base and so has Mazda which is Hondas main rival....

Mazda2 vs Jazz
Mazda3 vs Civic
Mazda6 vs Accord
RX8 vs Integra Type S
MX5 vs S2000
Tribute vs CRV
CX7 and CX9 vs MDX.

Not too far behind is Hyundi, Subaru, Ford and all those European cars...and last on the list is Mitsubishi and Holden which by the way is hanging on by a thread (lucky for the Holden Ute otherwise....... :wave: lol)


I am going to contact the relevant authorities (consumer affairs and vicroads) and I'd ask the rest of the euro owners with the same symptoms, to do so too, PLEASE !! This is a SAFETY ISSUE !! At 4000klm-5000klm my car was looking for the nearest power pole (No exageration)

I have raised a safety issue with comsumer affairs before with success, not only for my success but for the success of SAFETY for fellow consumers as well, it is our responsabilty to do so as we are the consumer.

I will post relevant authority details in the next couple of days.


;)

[avid]

Quote "Yeah, at 0mm - 0mm, my left wheel pointed straight, while my right wheel pointed a few mm out to the right. Tell them to put -1mm or so on the right wheel to compensate. "

It seems to me that a number of people are having a problem getting the steering wheel back to the straight ahead position after dealers/tyre shops have played around trying to fix the drift problem.I dont know why,its not normally a big deal with good alignment machines and experienced front end mechanics,but i see a number of posts complaining about it from time to time.It makes me reluctant to let anybody play around with my car,because if there's one thing that bothers me as much as the drifting,its an 'off centre' steering wheel.
The suggestion to change the toe on the right wheel seems a logical step,but why havnt some of these places (including Honda Aus) already tried it. Mabye they have???Has anybody out there done it with any success ?

[Omotesando]

Has anyone contacted Whiteline and see if they have anything to say about this?

Can't believe this is still going.

We should let Jenson Button drive our Euros. He can complain to Honda for us and for his F1 car design problems. :eek:

[LXRY]

Process started
Consumer Affairs contacted online safety form lodged !!


Victoria
http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256EB5000644CE/page/Listing-Online-Make+a+complaint

N.S.W http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/icms/resolveraddition/resolver_complainthandling.html

Queensland
http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/oft/oftweb.nsf/AllDocs/RWPA19B958E35FEBE974A256C3F0021051A?OpenDocument&L1=Miscellanous+Documents
(Go to the bottom of the page and look for "Lodge a complaint" button)

A.C.T
http://www.fairtrading.act.gov.au/Consumers/official_complaint.htm

S.A.
http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/consumeradvice/complaints/lodging.html

N.T.
http://www.nt.gov.au/justice/graphpages/cba/consumer/complaints_disputes.shtml

Tasmania
http://www.consumer.tas.gov.au/product_safety/advice_and_complaints

W.A
http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/motor_vehicles2/disputes_complaints/lodge_complaints/How_to_lodge_a_compl.asp?section=servicing

Some states don't offer online safety forms but some do.

Next is review sites such as RACV, carsguide.com.au, drive.com.au etc

I will keep in touch.

[V205]

I think the SIMPLEST and EASIEST things to resolve this is for Honda Australia to change all the tyres of 17" Euro with RE040 to something that doesn't exhibit the problem.

Because it has already been proven that same car with 16" stock rims and tyres + 17" rims with aftermarket tyres DO NOT have the same pulling issue.

[tony1234]

I think the SIMPLEST and EASIEST things to resolve this is for Honda Australia to change all the tyres of 17" Euro with RE040 to something that doesn't exhibit the problem.

Because it has already been proven that same car with 16" stock rims and tyres + 17" rims with aftermarket tyres DO NOT have the same pulling issue.
I agree.

[LXRY]

Changed my tyres too michelin preceda II still pulling to the right......can anyone give me any other suggestions plz...getting desperate now. That was my nightmare come true, damn it...pulling not as severe but evident, might have something to do with higher side wall on michelin's, not sure.......I can't believe the dealership's as well denial, denial....have i been flagged or something...every dealer telling me no pulling problem, and is normal for my car to follow camber of the road.....IS THIS NORMAL....YEAH RIGHT MY CAR HITS AUTO PILOT ON RIGHT TURNS WITH CAMBER, I DONT EVEN HAVE TO TURN MY STEERING WHEEL ON RIGHT TURNS, UNDER CAMBER...:( :( :( TAKES THE TURN BY IT SELF....IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL FOLLOWING CAMBER AND WHY DOESN'T IT FOLLOW CAMBER TO THE LEFT ????? AT ALL??????




Definetly not bridgestones RE040.

Although i must state that, bridgestone REO40's are pretty shit. I am getting better ride (smoother), NO tram tracking AT ALL with the preceda's, feels like I have nike air max on my car now. Even absorbs bumps better, where as REO40's shit on pot holes and big bumps....

[aaronng]

Get the Ingalls rear camber kit like I suggested. My car was pulling right very hard (enough to get you to change direction from a left lane change to a right lane without your hand on the wheel) after lowering by 1" because of the obscene amount of rear camber and incorrect rear toe. After getting the kit installed and realigned to factory specs, my car drives straight.

[tony1234]

Changed my tyres too michelin preceda II still pulling to the right......can anyone give me any other suggestions plz...getting desperate now. That was my nightmare come true, damn it...pulling not as severe but evident, might have something to do with higher side wall on michelin's, not sure.......I can't believe the dealership's as well denial, denial....have i been flagged or something...every dealer telling me no pulling problem, and is normal for my car to follow camber of the road.....IS THIS NORMAL....YEAH RIGHT MY CAR HITS AUTO PILOT ON RIGHT TURNS WITH CAMBER, I DONT EVEN HAVE TO TURN MY STEERING WHEEL ON RIGHT TURNS, UNDER CAMBER...:( :( :( TAKES THE TURN BY IT SELF....IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL FOLLOWING CAMBER AND WHY DOESN'T IT FOLLOW CAMBER TO THE LEFT ????? AT ALL???

Definetly not bridgestones RE040.

Although i must state that, bridgestone REO40's are pretty shit. I am getting better ride (smoother), NO tram tracking AT ALL with the preceda's, feels like I have nike air max on my car now. Even absorbs bumps better, where as REO40's shit on pot holes and big bumps....
Sorry to hear you still have the drifting/pulling issue,what a pain in the arse.Try a rear camber kit like Aaron suggested(i've got one of these)otherwise a good alignment shop,in the meantime keep on HA case.Ring/email on a regular basis,keep at them,they'll do something just to get rid of you.Anyway good luck!!

[Tobster]

First of all: understand that the car has pretty direct steering.
Most people complain about cars that have vague steering!
The Euro tramlines; some cars do, especially the more sporty ones.

I really think this "issue" isn't that much of an issue and has got blown completely out of proportion in this thread.

The first thing is to check your tyre pressures -- and LOWER them!

Increasing tyre pressures will increase tramlining. More pressure means harder tyre, means more likely to be thrown off line. Softer tyre pressures act like a cushion.

Perhaps start with the tyre pressures recommended in the manual -- there's a reason why manufacturers recommend tyre pressures -- because they've checked what works best for the car!

[aaronng]

It pulls to the side on 4-lane freeways where the road doesn't have grooves. Also, roads slant to the left, so the car should pull to the left. Mine pulled to the RIGHT after lowering without a rear alignment.

[tony1234]

First of all: understand that the car has pretty direct steering.
Most people complain about cars that have vague steering!
The Euro tramlines; some cars do, especially the more sporty ones.

I really think this "issue" isn't that much of an issue and has got blown completely out of proportion in this thread.

The first thing is to check your tyre pressures -- and LOWER them!

Increasing tyre pressures will increase tramlining. More pressure means harder tyre, means more likely to be thrown off line. Softer tyre pressures act like a cushion.

Perhaps start with the tyre pressures recommended in the manual -- there's a reason why manufacturers recommend tyre pressures -- because they've checked what works best for the car!

I have Bilstein/Eibach combo,lowered of course,conti sport contact 2 tyres set at 38-40psi.I do have some tramlining on uneven roads but NO drifting/pulling at all.I was told by my tyre shop that the recommended pressures are too low.They tell me they regularly get euros with the tyres prematurely worn on the outsides and the owners can't understand why they need a set of new tyres after 20k!!or less!!They suggest 4psi extra all round.I think it's a combination of OEM tyres and alignment settings.BTW i have an 06.:confused:

[aday]

I was told by my tyre shop that the recommended pressures are too low.They tell me they regularly get euros with the tyres prematurely worn on the outsides and the owners can't understand why they need a set of new tyres after 20k!!or less!!

My first set of tyres wore badly on the inside edge. After 24,000km, I was upgrading from 16s (and the stock Dunlops) to 17s, but my tyre shop told me that one rear tyre was bordering on illegal from the tread wearing on the inner edge, and the other wasn't looking too healthy either (despite both having plenty of tread left in the centre, and a reasonable amount left on the outside).

I give my car a bit of stick occasionally, but I've never had premature wear like this before. The tyre shop put it down to the Euro's suspension geometry, and suggested they have a propensity to start chewing through rubber - particularly at the rear - if alignments aren't performed at least once every 10,000km or so.

[aaronng]

My first set of tyres wore badly on the inside edge. After 24,000km, I was upgrading from 16s (and the stock Dunlops) to 17s, but my tyre shop told me that one rear tyre was bordering on illegal from the tread wearing on the inner edge, and the other wasn't looking too healthy either (despite both having plenty of tread left in the centre, and a reasonable amount left on the outside).

I give my car a bit of stick occasionally, but I've never had premature wear like this before. The tyre shop put it down to the Euro's suspension geometry, and suggested they have a propensity to start chewing through rubber - particularly at the rear - if alignments aren't performed at least once every 10,000km or so.

Was your car lowered? If your car was stock, there is not much they can adjust in the rear in terms of alignment. So they were just trying to get you to come back more often.

[aday]

Was your car lowered? If your car was stock, there is not much they can adjust in the rear in terms of alignment. So they were just trying to get you to come back more often.

Yep, it's stock. And yes, they did mention that there's not a lot of adjustability, although the drive improved markedly - and my car stopped pulling - after the alignment (which was done 500km before I switched to 17s). They told me that the improvement was mainly to do with the adjustments they made at the rear.

But I also have no doubt that they were trying to ramp up business. I'll be keeping a close eye on my inside tyre wear and steering pull from now on, but I won't be getting an alignment done unless it's needed.

[LXRY]

First of all: understand that the car has pretty direct steering.
Most people complain about cars that have vague steering!
The Euro tramlines; some cars do, especially the more sporty ones.

I really think this "issue" isn't that much of an issue and has got blown completely out of proportion in this thread.

The first thing is to check your tyre pressures -- and LOWER them!

Increasing tyre pressures will increase tramlining. More pressure means harder tyre, means more likely to be thrown off line. Softer tyre pressures act like a cushion.

Perhaps start with the tyre pressures recommended in the manual -- there's a reason why manufacturers recommend tyre pressures -- because they've checked what works best for the car!

How does tyre pressure have to do with my situation?

Happened from 5000klm's ....checked my tyre pressure before I took it too Honda, cause i thought it might be that. Tyre pressure was same as specs always have been.

If it was as simple as tyre pressure then why did honda dealership adjust my k-frame? Why not just say it was tyre pressure adjust them and goodbye.

And as far as tyres are concerned worst tram tracking I've ever experienced with the REO40's.

I have michelin pilot sport (preceda II) now and am experiencing "NIL" tram tracking. EXCELLENT TYRES. And tyre pressures are in spec

Also I must add that Yokahama's ADVAN, Dunlop sport 3000a are of equal standard, due to there asymetrical designs, which help with tramlining.

Here you see there is a trend forming...ASYMMETRICAL even bridgestone is following e.g

(TOP) michelin pilot sport (preceda II)
(BOTTOM) Yokahama ADVAN (sport V103).

5374

5375
(1) Continental conti sport contact 2
(2) Bridgestone REO50
(3) Dunlop 3000a sport

[LXRY]

Found this also...

http://tsx.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37060

Seems that we arn't the only ones....but drifting to the left, they do drive on the opposite side of the road aswell.

hmmmmmmmm.....sound familiar?????????

[Tobster]

How does tyre pressure have to do with my situation?


All I was trying to suggest was that some cars will tramline regardless.

Different tyres will tramline more or less than others, yes.

What I was trying to suggest is that when a car experiences tramlining issues, the first thing you should do is check your tyre pressures: reducing tyre pressure will reduce tramlining. With some cars or people's preferences for feel, this is enough.

(Personally, I tend to run 34 front and 32 rear.)

Something that I did wonder about the other day: I remember reading in an early review of the car that the Australian model still gets mechanical power-steering assistance, whereas other models overseas apparently have electric power assistance. Mechanical assistance is still favoured by purists as providing better steering feel; electrical assistance tends to make things feel a bit more dead (e.g.: the M roadster has mechanical steering compared to the Z4's electric; many reviews tend to say that the S2000's electrically-assisted steering feels a bit dead). I wonder if our "purer" mechanical assistance provides a lot more feedback (for the style of car) than many drivers out there seem to prefer.

Yes I feel a steering pull through my stock car; I feel a brake bite more on one side; I feel a wheel grabbed by a pothole. I accept it as part of the nature of the car.

That doesn't mean to say that someone out there doesn't have a genuine manufacturing defect.

I just question whether some people seem to be mistaking what is the car's steering nature for something that they see as a defect. Hence: you take it to the Honda yard, they can't feel a problem -- because your car is no different to any other. The problem is that you don't like the nature of the car...

I would suggest that if you feel that you really have a problem with your steering, then meet up with somebody else on this forum and let them drive your car -- for an opinion from somebody who knows intimately what their car feels like.

[tony1234]

I would suggest that if you feel that you really have a problem with your steering, then meet up with somebody else on this forum and let them drive your car -- for an opinion from somebody who knows intimately what their car feels like.
Good idea.Meet up with Aaron or some of the Melb.guys.:)

[LXRY]

All I was trying to suggest was that some cars will tramline regardless.

Different tyres will tramline more or less than others, yes.

What I was trying to suggest is that when a car experiences tramlining issues, the first thing you should do is check your tyre pressures: reducing tyre pressure will reduce tramlining. With some cars or people's preferences for feel, this is enough.

(Personally, I tend to run 34 front and 32 rear.)

Something that I did wonder about the other day: I remember reading in an early review of the car that the Australian model still gets mechanical power-steering assistance, whereas other models overseas apparently have electric power assistance. Mechanical assistance is still favoured by purists as providing better steering feel; electrical assistance tends to make things feel a bit more dead (e.g.: the M roadster has mechanical steering compared to the Z4's electric; many reviews tend to say that the S2000's electrically-assisted steering feels a bit dead). I wonder if our "purer" mechanical assistance provides a lot more feedback (for the style of car) than many drivers out there seem to prefer.

Yes I feel a steering pull through my stock car; I feel a brake bite more on one side; I feel a wheel grabbed by a pothole. I accept it as part of the nature of the car.

That doesn't mean to say that someone out there doesn't have a genuine manufacturing defect.

I just question whether some people seem to be mistaking what is the car's steering nature for something that they see as a defect. Hence: you take it to the Honda yard, they can't feel a problem -- because your car is no different to any other. The problem is that you don't like the nature of the car...

I would suggest that if you feel that you really have a problem with your steering, then meet up with somebody else on this forum and let them drive your car -- for an opinion from somebody who knows intimately what their car feels like.


I have driven other euro's....my problem is something else. When I test drove my car it had no drift,no pull and no bias at all. If I had known that all Euros pull, drift after a while I would not have bought it.


I am taking my car back to the guy who lowered my car according to him my castor might have been affected when those fools at Honda adjusted my K-Frame to compensate for the drifting problem the REO40's caused...He will put my k-frame back the way it was (straight) as I have new tyres now.

He is still sure it was the RE40's that caused the problem in the first place, I'll just have to wait and see.

I have a 50 year old tractor at home and it drives straighter on the road than my car.

[aaronng]

Yes I feel a steering pull through my stock car; I feel a brake bite more on one side; I feel a wheel grabbed by a pothole. I accept it as part of the nature of the car.

That doesn't mean to say that someone out there doesn't have a genuine manufacturing defect.

I just question whether some people seem to be mistaking what is the car's steering nature for something that they see as a defect. Hence: you take it to the Honda yard, they can't feel a problem -- because your car is no different to any other. The problem is that you don't like the nature of the car...

I would suggest that if you feel that you really have a problem with your steering, then meet up with somebody else on this forum and let them drive your car -- for an opinion from somebody who knows intimately what their car feels like.

I think you are misunderstanding his problem. The problem is when driving on a flat road, with no surface defects, and your hand lightly on the wheel, the car will drift to the right. It's as if the suspension of the car was "bent" to the right. You have to pull the steering wheel to the left to keep the car going straight. If you let the wheel go, the natural centering of the steering wheel will still end up with the car drifting to the right.

A car with proper alignment but the steering wheel offset so that it doesn't point straight when going straight will self-align to drive straight ahead (eventhough the wheel doesn't point straight).

I don't need to drive his car because I had the same problem before after lowering but with the rear camber and toe not within specs.

[thezone]

Hi guys this is my first post at this forum. I have a 07 Euro Lux Navi Man which has always drfited to the right. Done 5,000 km now and have had it back to honda several times. Only to be told there is no fault with my car. Service manager (Dave Potter Honda SA) told me Euros tend to drift a bit and it's the nature of the car. Something perhaps they should tell you before you buy! I must say tho, if you ignore said drifting its an awsome value for money example of motor enginnering. Just need to lower it now.

[avid]

Several pages back i asked if anyone else had measured the wheelbase on left and right sides of their cars.(didnt get any answers on that) My vehicle is 10mm shorter on the right side than on the left side.Its never been pranged,nor even driven over a big pothole,came that way from factory.That effectivley means the car points right in the straight ahead position.
I've all but given up on this issue, and am waiting for my RE040's to wear out so i can try a set of symmetrical tyres.
I'm due for 20,000k service next week and i'm unsure if i want Honda to check and fiddle with the K frame and alignment.Jeez, i dont know if i even want them to balance and rotate my tyres, for fear of making the drift worse.

[aaronng]

Several pages back i asked if anyone else had measured the wheelbase on left and right sides of their cars.(didnt get any answers on that) My vehicle is 10mm shorter on the right side than on the left side.Its never been pranged,nor even driven over a big pothole,came that way from factory.That effectivley means the car points right in the straight ahead position.
I've all but given up on this issue, and am waiting for my RE040's to wear out so i can try a set of symmetrical tyres.
I'm due for 20,000k service next week and i'm unsure if i want Honda to check and fiddle with the K frame and alignment.Jeez, i dont know if i even want them to balance and rotate my tyres, for fear of making the drift worse.

How do you measure the wheelbase on each side? Where is your middle point?

[aaronng]

Hi guys this is my first post at this forum. I have a 07 Euro Lux Navi Man which has always drfited to the right. Done 5,000 km now and have had it back to honda several times. Only to be told there is no fault with my car. Service manager (Dave Potter Honda SA) told me Euros tend to drift a bit and it's the nature of the car. Something perhaps they should tell you before you buy! I must say tho, if you ignore said drifting its an awsome value for money example of motor enginnering. Just need to lower it now.

It gets worse when you lower the Euro. Remember to get a rear camber and toe adjustment kit.

[LXRY]

Several pages back i asked if anyone else had measured the wheelbase on left and right sides of their cars.(didnt get any answers on that) My vehicle is 10mm shorter on the right side than on the left side.Its never been pranged,nor even driven over a big pothole,came that way from factory.That effectivley means the car points right in the straight ahead position.
I've all but given up on this issue, and am waiting for my RE040's to wear out so i can try a set of symmetrical tyres.
I'm due for 20,000k service next week and i'm unsure if i want Honda to check and fiddle with the K frame and alignment.Jeez, i dont know if i even want them to balance and rotate my tyres, for fear of making the drift worse.

If you lower it you will have no hope of Honda fixing the issue....happened to me, good excuse for them to void warranty. HA was quick to point out that warranty void wit my case.

[SPQR]

This thread is still going!

I occasionally experience the right pull but my car has been tramlining less since fitting Dunlop SportMaxx tyres. It's probably because they are new. I have gone against earlier posted advice and I have increased the tyre pressures to 46psi front and 34psi rear. Apart from the slightly "jigglier" ride (and great turn-in), it has reduced tramlining even more; probably because it has made the tyre cross section rounder. I don't think it will increase centre of tyre wear because tyres on the Euro wear the shoulders first anyway.

The maximum air pressure for the reinforced version of the 225/45R17 SportMaxx's on my car is 50psi. It seems that any rim bigger than 16 inch doesn't work well on the Euro. My original 16 inch tyres (205/55R16 Dunlop 2050M) did not have any problems in this regard. But then again, the Acura TSX has 17 inch rims but with taller (larger diameter and profile) 215/50R17 tyres (sorry, tires in USA speak). Maybe Acura recognised that larger width tires (sic) as huge, ultrawide, gi-normous as 225's cause tramlining problems and went for a taller and "rounder" cross section tire (sic).

I believe that the Type R in Europe has 215/45R17 tyres. Has anyone used this smaller and speedometer flattering tyre size on the Aussie Euro?

[aaronng]

Our complaint in this thread is not tramlining though. :)

btw, 46psi is too high. When you drive, the tyres heat up and it can go above 50psi.

[avid]

How do you measure the wheelbase on each side? Where is your middle point?

Aaron,I measured from the centre of each wheel cap, front to back.Even though its not accurate to the mm,in my cars case its easy enough to see the 10mm difference.I also measured the height of the car on each side,unlike some other peoples findings,i found very little difference in ride height,few mm at most.I've also experimented with all sorts of tyre pressures even to the point of making one side or the other pressure higher in an attempt to "offset" the drifting effect.Very little difference,if any, in my case.

[aaronng]

Aaron,I measured from the centre of each wheel cap, front to back.Even though its not accurate to the mm,in my cars case its easy enough to see the 10mm difference.I also measured the height of the car on each side,unlike some other peoples findings,i found very little difference in ride height,few mm at most.I've also experimented with all sorts of tyre pressures even to the point of making one side or the other pressure higher in an attempt to "offset" the drifting effect.Very little difference,if any, in my case.

I just went out and measured mine, 268cm on each side. (oh, and my driver's side front corner is lower by 1cm compared to the passenger's side).

Did you get your subframe adjusted by the dealer?

[avid]

I just went out and measured mine, 268cm on each side. (oh, and my driver's side front corner is lower by 1cm compared to the passenger's side).

Did you get your subframe adjusted by the dealer?

No,i havnt had the Dealer touch it.My left wheel base is 267cm and right is 266cm, give or take a mm or two,BTW.My car is stock height,not lowered.

[SPQR]

Our complaint in this thread is not tramlining though. :)

btw, 46psi is too high. When you drive, the tyres heat up and it can go above 50psi.

Actually, LXRY and Tobster were talking about Tramlining and/or Tramtracking on the previous page and there are numerous other references in this thread to Tramlining. Tobster had even contended that lowering tyre pressures helps with Tramlining.

I was reporting on my experience with increasing tyre pressures as opposed to reducing them. It is better to run higher pressures for high speed.

I am aware of the increase in pressure when the tyres heat-up. The rule of thumb is a 4 psi increase. That's why I inflated my car's tyres to 46 psi (max is 50 psi with the reinforced SportMaxx 225/45R17).

[LXRY]

Actually, LXRY and Tobster were talking about Tramlining and/or Tramtracking on the previous page and there are numerous other references in this thread to Tramlining. Tobster had even contended that lowering tyre pressures helps with Tramlining.

I was reporting on my experience with increasing tyre pressures as opposed to reducing them. It is better to run higher pressures for high speed.

I am aware of the increase in pressure when the tyres heat-up. The rule of thumb is a 4 psi increase. That's why I inflated my car's tyres to 46 psi (max is 50 psi with the reinforced SportMaxx 225/45R17).

Sorry but this thread has nothing to do with tramlining.

Aaronng is right :thumbsup:

It has to do with a problem with drifting to one side flat road or cambered road excessively than normal.

Tobster mentioned tramlining previous page not me, I stated that I have no problems with tramlining anymore, and yes we all know that bridgestone's
REO40's are a bad tyre for tramlining....

I no longer have this problem with tramlining with my new Michelin's, and I have still have a problem with my car pulling excessively to the right side

Your contribution or help is appreciated regarding tramlining and tyre pressure's ;)

[Tobster]

I believe that a lot of the veering described by people in this thread could be due to tramlining.

I had a little play while driving home last night. My steering is happy to veer to the left, the right or to stay straight ahead -- all within a tiny fraction of a steering-wheel turn.

Since the car tramlines so readily, it really doesn't take much to get it to veer...

[aaronng]

I believe that a lot of the veering described by people in this thread could be due to tramlining.

I had a little play while driving home last night. My steering is happy to veer to the left, the right or to stay straight ahead -- all within a tiny fraction of a steering-wheel turn.

Since the car tramlines so readily, it really doesn't take much to get it to veer...
What you are describing is not tramlining. That is sharp steering response. That is different to tramlining and to drifting. Tramlining is when you go over a surface defect on the road and the interaction of the tyre with that groove/hole/line travels back up the steering rack and turns the wheel against your command. So if you were holding the steering wheel loosely, it would turn on its own. In drifting, the steering wheel self-centering point is not straight. So once self-centered, the car will veer off to the right (or left), but not as quick as tramlining and certainly doesn't pull the steering wheel from your hands.

[thezone]

I just tried the same thing this morning tobster and i think i agree with you. Although there is a slight tendancy to veer right rather than left.

[Tobster]

I'm aware of what tramlining is. What I'm trying to suggest (obviously unsuccessfully) is that it goes something like:

Wheel tramlines -- hence steering wheel moves.

But the steering moves only a tiny bit -- barely perceptible to the driver (if at all).

Therefore the car seems to drift...

The Euro tramlines easily, so if it only tramlines a minute amount due to road irregularities it's going to feel like the car is drifting around the place.

[ok2]

This thread is still going!

I occasionally experience the right pull but my car has been tramlining less since fitting Dunlop SportMaxx tyres. It's probably because they are new. I have gone against earlier posted advice and I have increased the tyre pressures to 46psi front and 34psi rear. Apart from the slightly "jigglier" ride (and great turn-in), it has reduced tramlining even more; probably because it has made the tyre cross section rounder. I don't think it will increase centre of tyre wear because tyres on the Euro wear the shoulders first anyway.

The maximum air pressure for the reinforced version of the 225/45R17 SportMaxx's on my car is 50psi. It seems that any rim bigger than 16 inch doesn't work well on the Euro. My original 16 inch tyres (205/55R16 Dunlop 2050M) did not have any problems in this regard. But then again, the Acura TSX has 17 inch rims but with taller (larger diameter and profile) 215/50R17 tyres (sorry, tires in USA speak). Maybe Acura recognised that larger width tires (sic) as huge, ultrawide, gi-normous as 225's cause tramlining problems and went for a taller and "rounder" cross section tire (sic).

I believe that the Type R in Europe has 215/45R17 tyres. Has anyone used this smaller and speedometer flattering tyre size on the Aussie Euro?
Thought that the 46 PSI was a typo but apparently not ! Over inflating by that much

a) is dangerous as when driving the pressure will increase by 4 PSI or more (especially if doing highway speeds) thus exceeding that maximum figure of the tyre i.e. it may blow or pop off the rim
b) will result on very poor wear / life

That said there are lots of discussions here, Accurazine (www.acurazine.com) about tyre pressure and a lot of people running 4-6 PSI over the Honda (Acura) recommended pressures and getting better fuel economy plus handing with excellent wear. You can find similar comments elsewhere easily enough for many tyres & vehicles.

I run mine 4 PSI higher (36 front, 34 rear) so I agree a little higher is OK and have noticed the improvements with only a little "sitffer" ride but 14 PSI over is IMHO crazy.

[aaronng]

I'm aware of what tramlining is. What I'm trying to suggest (obviously unsuccessfully) is that it goes something like:

Wheel tramlines -- hence steering wheel moves.

But the steering moves only a tiny bit -- barely perceptible to the driver (if at all).

Therefore the car seems to drift...

The Euro tramlines easily, so if it only tramlines a minute amount due to road irregularities it's going to feel like the car is drifting around the place.

When I had the problem, the car never veered left unless I was braking on a patch of road with uneven grip on the left and right tyres (road scored to re-tar on one side). Also, on a road which curved left and cambered to left very strongly, the car still veered right. :)

[thezone]

Drove home from work tonight and car definitely veers to the right quite badly. I think this is a known fault and that Honda may be treading carefully in case of a big backlash. When I brought up the issue they replied "We have checked all specs and there is technically no fault with your car". They suggested that if I'm still not happy they would invite the principal or director from Honda Aust. over to the yard to personally test drive the car. I think i might just take them up on that.

[tony1234]

Drove home from work tonight and car definitely veers to the right quite badly. I think this is a known fault and that Honda may be treading carefully in case of a big backlash. When I brought up the issue they replied "We have checked all specs and there is technically no fault with your car". They suggested that if I'm still not happy they would invite the principal or director from Honda Aust. over to the yard to personally test drive the car. I think i might just take them up on that.
Take them up on their offer and make sure you take them on a stretch of road where you car veers to the right quite bad.Good luck!!!

[thezone]

Hi tony,

Do you have a bigger picture of your car that I can use as incentive to get bilstein/eibach setup? Your avatar is too small. I was quoted $1600 plus fitting today. So I just need a little visual incentive. Also, before i go changing suspension set up i should probably sort out veering problem otherwise I'm sure Honda wont touch it.

Cheers

[tony1234]

Hi tony,

Do you have a bigger picture of your car that I can use as incentive to get bilstein/eibach setup? Your avatar is too small. I was quoted $1600 plus fitting today. So I just need a little visual incentive. Also, before i go changing suspension set up i should probably sort out veering problem otherwise I'm sure Honda wont touch it.

Cheers
Yeah,i'll send you one.BTW if you get rid of those crap OEM tyres(RE040s)you'll reduce the veering markedly.$1600+fitting sounds like a good price.You WILL need a rear camber kit though.Get an Ingallls or ask your installer about the Eibach one.PS.You'll LOVE the setup when you get it done.:thumbsup:

[thezone]

Hi tony, dont know if your getting my messages or not re email can you let me know? cheers.

[avid]

I had my 20,000k service done on Friday and got the tyres rotated.
My 10 yr old son pestered me to take him to the Auto Saloon show at the Gold Coast,so off we went on Saturday down the very nice flat Pacific hwy to the GC, and WTF,no noticeable drift to the right.
Why when i had rotated them at 10,000ks did it still drift, but not now???
Anyway, met a helpful Management guy at the Bridgestone display who very kindly offered to switch around my tyres on the rims for free in an effort to see if that would solve the drift problem i had been having, and at that point i wasnt sure if the drift had gone 100% or not.But it wasnt there on the return trip to Brisbane either,so i dont think i will be taking up his offer.Interestingly he hadnt heard of the problem with the RE040's,but seemed genuinely interested in helping me fix it.
BTW,the show was a bit disappointing.Not many Hondas and not one Euro.I was also on the lookout for a display stand selling some serious rims , nothing but bling anywhere to be seen.
What a wasted opportunity for those places that sell tuner parts and decent rims.
I know i'm getting old,but i really am unimpressed with the trend for "modified car" to mean how big and loud a stereo system they can cram in their vehicles.Personally i would rather see the money spent on adding custom made carbon fibre and alloy suspension components or polishing everything in sight(and out of sight).A lot of the cars didnt even have lightweight/racing rims.

[LXRY]

Drove home from work tonight and car definitely veers to the right quite badly. I think this is a known fault and that Honda may be treading carefully in case of a big backlash. When I brought up the issue they replied "We have checked all specs and there is technically no fault with your car". They suggested that if I'm still not happy they would invite the principal or director from Honda Aust. over to the yard to personally test drive the car. I think i might just take them up on that.


Don't let them fool you they know of the issue...when they send someone there (to your dealer) he or she will be there before you, to discuss what they will say, collaboration. Everyone's stories have to be the same. They will LIE to you, DENY it till they are blue in the face, then offer you tyres lol.

Give em hell trust me. Ask for a third party opinion....and you choose the third party.

I feel for you as you will get the run around.

[Suntzu]

OK. Strangeness.

Ive had my euro 2 years. No drifting . All perfect.

Got the 30 000km service done a few weeks ago. Rotated the tyres.

Now it drifts to the right WTF!

hmm

[mmmsxc]

got an 06 luxury and no problems.

[Omotesando]

Well my stock 05 17 inch rims Euro Accord finally decided the stock tyres were enough after around 30000kms so I just changed them to brand new tyres on all 4 corners.

Before, my car had a very slight tendency to drift to the right, but not too noticeable.

After putting on some Hankook V8 RS2 (I think they're called) and with laser wheel alignment done so that it is suppose to track straight, the car is pulling very hard to the left.

I've yet to go fix this but it goes on to show that even with another tyre you get drifting tendencies one way or another. This has never happened with previous cars I've had.

2ndly I think it proves that its not only the original Bridgestone 040s which have this problem. There must be something wrong with the Euro's design. Especially with the amount of bump steer that I get over any pot holes or bumps, which is rather dangerous.

Now its going to be a hassle to fix this issue I would imagine... oh well, when I get more time.

[aaronng]

Well my stock 05 17 inch rims Euro Accord finally decided the stock tyres were enough after around 30000kms so I just changed them to brand new tyres on all 4 corners.

Before, my car had a very slight tendency to drift to the right, but not too noticeable.

After putting on some Hankook V8 RS2 (I think they're called) and with laser wheel alignment done so that it is suppose to track straight, the car is pulling very hard to the left.

I've yet to go fix this but it goes on to show that even with another tyre you get drifting tendencies one way or another. This has never happened with previous cars I've had.

2ndly I think it proves that its not only the original Bridgestone 040s which have this problem. There must be something wrong with the Euro's design. Especially with the amount of bump steer that I get over any pot holes or bumps, which is rather dangerous.

Now its going to be a hassle to fix this issue I would imagine... oh well, when I get more time.
You did an alignment, so the suspension geometry is probably changed. What alignment settings did the tyre shop set for your suspension?

[Woogler]

After so many months and so many complaints fom Euro owners with the same problem, doesn't anyone think this car genuinely has a defective steering problem? I have NEVER owned a car that could not be straightended out with a simple wheel alignment! I have had all the HA "tricks" done since I bought it a year ago and it still is a pain in the arse to steer. Chasing it all over the road and as twitchy as a cat on a hot roof. Hit the slightest bump and its all over the place and it likes to go all over the lane dependant on the way the road is worn, and it loves to track right still..... What a drama in such a nice vehicle.

[aaronng]

After so many months and so many complaints fom Euro owners with the same problem, doesn't anyone think this car genuinely has a defective steering problem? I have NEVER owned a car that could not be straightended out with a simple wheel alignment! I have had all the HA "tricks" done since I bought it a year ago and it still is a pain in the arse to steer. Chasing it all over the road and as twitchy as a cat on a hot roof. Hit the slightest bump and its all over the place and it likes to go all over the lane dependant on the way the road is worn, and it loves to track right still..... What a drama in such a nice vehicle.

The problem was caused by the RE040 tyres. But after you all got your subframe adjusted, that caused uneven castor that would work with the RE040 at stock height but would be even worse when you lower your car or use different tyres. The best would have been to live with the pulling and then change to a different brand of tyres. If you had your subframe adjusted, you should change it back to stock. Also, if you don't like twitchy steering, ask for 1mm total toe in on your front wheels.

[LXRY]

After so many months and so many complaints fom Euro owners with the same problem, doesn't anyone think this car genuinely has a defective steering problem? I have NEVER owned a car that could not be straightended out with a simple wheel alignment! I have had all the HA "tricks" done since I bought it a year ago and it still is a pain in the arse to steer. Chasing it all over the road and as twitchy as a cat on a hot roof. Hit the slightest bump and its all over the place and it likes to go all over the lane dependant on the way the road is worn, and it loves to track right still..... What a drama in such a nice vehicle.

Have you changed from the REO40's?


Yep your REO40's causing this problem you are talking about "twitchy as a cat"...lol



I changed tyres not long ago, REO40's causing alot of tramlining and twitching as you would call it, lol. No tramlining or sudden changes to the steering anymore since I got new tyres, I had to pay for these my self of course.

[Woogler]

I wouldn't allow them to stuff around with my sub-frame. Only changed tyres and a thousand wheel alignments. But the way it drags itself to the right on right cambered sloped roads...ridiculously compared to left cambered..it has a problem.. a real problem.. the car is just not even in the front end. And so many others have the same problem.

[LXRY]

I wouldn't allow them to stuff around with my sub-frame. Only changed tyres and a thousand wheel alignments. But the way it drags itself to the right on right cambered sloped roads...ridiculously compared to left cambered..it has a problem.. a real problem.. the car is just not even in the front end. And so many others have the same problem.

So you are not running on REO40's?

You are experiencing the same problems as me. There is a problem, and they arn't telling.

Just take my advice and fill in safety report anyway, consumer affairs. Don't lose any more hair over it, irritating I know, but they will give in under pressure.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1125475#post1125475

[Woogler]

No I have had the alleged "faulty" REO40s swapped for new ones. It allowed the vehicl to track straighter but it has issues still on cambered roads. Haven't bought different brands yet. Car has only done 11k kms.

I am completing the form you posted a link to now.

[LXRY]

No I have had the alleged "faulty" REO40s swapped for new ones. It allowed the vehicl to track straighter but it has issues still on cambered roads. Haven't bought different brands yet. Car has only done 11k kms.

I am completing the form you posted a link to now.


My car was pulling right, before they adjusted sub frame, now pulling under camber only, not a straight road as before.

Sounds like they adjusted your sub frame too, trust me they would of that's there solution you see, these guys here in Aust. are the stooges and they sit when told trust me on this.

What ever it is one of us they can bullshit too but when your talking numbers

WE WIN.

[Omotesando]

Well I have the report for the wheel alignment - pre and after.

From the aligntment specs (which I wont retype here as its too cold to go outside to fetch it), it should be tracking straight on.

Now it is pulling to the left.

I think the RE040s tramline worst, that one I could make an association with.

However, other problems such as bump steer and not tracking straight or being really darty AREN'T exclusively restricted to RE040s.

Tramlining doesnt cause problems nor will cause any accidents.

Car not tracking straight or swerving all over the place whenever the camber is uneven or there are pot holes will and I still dont understand how people can blame this on the RE040s fully. The only problem with the RE040 that I had was tramlining but that was only a small part of the whole problem.

[aaronng]

No I have had the alleged "faulty" REO40s swapped for new ones. It allowed the vehicl to track straighter but it has issues still on cambered roads. Haven't bought different brands yet. Car has only done 11k kms.

I am completing the form you posted a link to now.

No, ALL RE040's have the problem. Because even the RE040s used on the USDM IS250s have the same problem! The only way to overcome this is to change to a different brand of tyre.

[LXRY]

Well I have the report for the wheel alignment - pre and after.

From the aligntment specs (which I wont retype here as its too cold to go outside to fetch it), it should be tracking straight on.

Now it is pulling to the left.

I think the RE040s tramline worst, that one I could make an association with.

However, other problems such as bump steer and not tracking straight or being really darty AREN'T exclusively restricted to RE040s.

Tramlining doesnt cause problems nor will cause any accidents.

Car not tracking straight or swerving all over the place whenever the camber is uneven or there are pot holes will and I still dont understand how people can blame this on the RE040s fully. The only problem with the RE040 that I had was tramlining but that was only a small part of the whole problem.


I have had my sub frame adjusted when I had REO40's, pulling only under camber now, excessively after adjustment.

Now I have new tyres same thing !! NO DIFFERENCE

Going to get my sub frame straightened only then will this rule out REO40's

Does that make sense?

Not trying to knock REO40's, not saying they good either just process of elimination, has to be proven beyond doubt.

[Tobster]

Found this article this morning; I thouught it might be relevant to some people's problems...

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_108643/article.html

[aeuro]

Prior to some suspension mods at 15,000km, my Euro never drifted to the right or left. The mods I did were to replace the rear sway bar with a stiffer bar and replace all dampers with Konis. No alteration of ride height; that's just being an idiot asking for problems on a car without adjustable camber.

Then after these mods, I had a wheel alignment done and then the car could not stay in the lane for any more than 3 seconds. I spat the dummy and got another wheel alignment done elsewhere. Hey presto! The car now tracks wonderfully and will stay in the lane for a good 5 or 6 seconds. 18,000km on the clock now.

The good wheel alignment I had done was -
Front Toe 0mm Left and Right
Rear Toe Left: 2mm In, Right: 2mm In.

Note that the camber is not adjustable. Interesting though that my front camber is roughly 0 degrees but the Left Rear is -2 degrees while the Right Rear is -1 degrees. I suppose this helps with the camber of our roads? Not sure.

Hope that helps but I suspect that most people having problems here just need a decent wheel alignment. If you've driven a long distance tolerating a strong pull to the right, then I would replace all 4 tyres, and then get a decent wheel alignment done. Don't bother waiting for Honda to fix this for you, either do it yourself or put up with it.

Note that I am still using the original RE040s and have never had the subframe adjusted.

[aeuro]

I've been doing some more experimenting. Most of the time the Euro tracks well but sometimes it does pull to the right, taking 3 seconds to hit the whiteline. It does this despite the road looking flat but it seems that on all but the flattest of roads, then yes there is tendnancy to drift right slightly. Personally I don't think my car suffers badly from this at all.

One other thing, according to the service manual, the rear camber should be -1deg +/- 30 minutes, meaning that the left rear has half a degree more camber than it should. I'll try to reduce this using the play in the damper top hat bolts when I get the tyres changed.

[aaronng]

I've been doing some more experimenting. Most of the time the Euro tracks well but sometimes it does pull to the right, taking 3 seconds to hit the whiteline. It does this despite the road looking flat but it seems that on all but the flattest of roads, then yes there is tendnancy to drift right slightly. Personally I don't think my car suffers badly from this at all.

That amount of pulling is very minimal. You know you have a problem if your car changes lane completely within 2-3 seconds at 110km/h. LOL. That was what I had when my left camber was -2.7 and the right was -3.2

[Suntzu]

So its camber or toe that cause the pulling?

[aaronng]

So its camber or toe that cause the pulling?

My front toe was good. If it was toe that caused the pulling, it would have been the rear toe (mine was still in spec though).

[tony1234]

So its camber or toe that cause the pulling?
I thought it's toe.

[Woogler]

Had a guy from Fair Trading NSW call me today as the result of my online complaint. He suggested it was torque steer. I quickly shut that concept down. He is now looking further into the complaint.

[tony1234]

Had a guy from Fair Trading NSW call me today as the result of my online complaint. He suggested it was torque steer. I quickly shut that concept down. He is now looking further into the complaint.
He suggested it was torque steer.That's a good one.:thumbdwn:

[V205]

Torque steer at crusing speed? Tell him his dreaming!

[aaronng]

Torque steer at crusing speed? Tell him his dreaming!

Better yet is to tell him that it happens when you are not touching the accelerator. :)

[Woogler]

Dead right guys. And aaronng, that is exactly what he was told. That is why he is now looking into it further. And when I mentioned this forum, with 39 pages of posts from Euro owners with the same problem, he started to take me seriously....

[aaronng]

For the record, mine happened after lowering, but I fixed it by getting a rear camber kit, and aligning to the perfect specs at a good tyre plce.

[Suntzu]

For the record, mine happened after lowering, but I fixed it by getting a rear camber kit, and aligning to the perfect specs at a good tyre plce.

Yeah im getting mine done tommorow. My tein ss and RSB is here but not the Ingalls camber kit. Im not sure if i should get the alignment done until next week when the camber kit is in. Not sure if a later camber adjustment will effect the toe settings on the rear later.

Im getting the zero front toe and 2mm toe in at the rear as per most recommedations here.

cheers

[aaronng]

Yeah im getting mine done tommorow. My tein ss and RSB is here but not the Ingalls camber kit. Im not sure if i should get the alignment done until next week when the camber kit is in. Not sure if a later camber adjustment will effect the toe settings on the rear later.

Im getting the zero front toe and 2mm toe in at the rear as per most recommedations here.

cheers

Remember to get a before and after alignment printout.

[petsfact]

I dont' know what is camber but what i can see from my car is the outer edge of rear tyres, probably 1.5 inch from outside never touch the ground. So the rear tyres is always like / \ instead of ||

I park on concrete floor so it gives very strong contrast of dust and no dust on the surface of the tyres.

I do realize is a bit excessive than the S15 park next to me in the garage but it could be the euro setting?

[aaronng]

I dont' know what is camber but what i can see from my car is the outer edge of rear tyres, probably 1.5 inch from outside never touch the ground. So the rear tyres is always like / \ instead of ||

I park on concrete floor so it gives very strong contrast of dust and no dust on the surface of the tyres.

I do realize is a bit excessive than the S15 park next to me in the garage but it could be the euro setting?

When lowered, the rear camber goes out of spec by quite a lot. I had about 3 degrees of negative camber on the rear. When is your rear camber kit arriving?

[petsfact]

When lowered, the rear camber goes out of spec by quite a lot. I had about 3 degrees of negative camber on the rear. When is your rear camber kit arriving?

do i need those? i thought i can just run a few kerb not curb and push it back.......somehow... :p

[aaronng]

do i need those? i thought i can just run a few curb and push it back.......somehow... :p

Why run the kerb? Might as well take them off and replace them with shorter twigs.

You need them if you are having pulling to the side or uneven tyre wear on the rear.

[Woogler]

DFT guy is coming to my dealer on Thu and wants to see the service records for the fault. And I will be taking him for a drive to demonstrate the fault.

[LXRY]

DFT guy is coming to my dealer on Thu and wants to see the service records for the fault. And I will be taking him for a drive to demonstrate the fault.


Happy for you woogler and wish you all the luck in the world with this one.......you can give them my details aswell as I have the same problem.

That means I will be getting a phone call too....time to get us some answers ;)

email :- shensta@hotmail.com

mobile phone no :- I will pm it too you ;)

I'm sure you'll keep us posted :thumbsup:

[rhettzor]

Just a quick note on my personal experience with this issue:

My Euro also had a drift to the right, I had my car looked at twice by my local Honda Dealership. The first visit they realigned the wheels, that didn't fix it. The second they replaced the wheels and realigned (the wheels were worn unevenly over time, adding to the issue). The mechanic told me they could not completely remove the drift, but it was greatly suppressed.

These days a small drift is still there, but its not a great concern. :)

[LXRY]

Just a quick note on my personal experience with this issue:

My Euro also had a drift to the right, I had my car looked at twice by my local Honda Dealership. The first visit they realigned the wheels, that didn't fix it. The second they replaced the wheels and realigned (the wheels were worn unevenly over time, adding to the issue). The mechanic told me they could not completely remove the drift, but it was greatly suppressed.

These days a small drift is still there, but its not a great concern. :)

Suppression...great word to use, because that's all they doing :thumbdwn:

Great to hear you are satisfied with the suppression of the problem....how many klm's had you done when it first started how many klm's have you done now?

Did they say what caused it in the first place?

Thanks for the input much appreciated :thumbsup:

[rhettzor]

I first noticed the drift around the 5k mark. From there it gradually became worse. One arvo i even worked out the LEFT TURN to RIGHT TURN ratio of my drive to work, etc... just to make sure i wasn't unevenly wearing the tyers (how crazy right? hehe!). Then i realised it doesn't matter, cause if i take the same trip home it works out even...

Anywho, I had a mate drive my car to get his opinion (and to make sure i wasn't going mad). At my 10k service (which was about 5 weeks later) i had honda check it out. As i previously mentioned, they realigned the wheels, told me it happens sometimes to new cars, and i just need to wear it in. The drift was somewhat suppressed, but it didn't last long. I took the car back at @14k, they realigned and replace the wheels, noting that the wheels had unevenly worn, and were counteracting the initial realignment.

Since then its been much better, the drift is still there in a very slight form (as with most cars), but its not causing me any grief. If it gets worse again, i'll be sure to get honda to check it out. Right now I'm @58k.

[Woogler]

Had DFT check mine out today. Noted there was drift and camber sensitivity but after testing another Euro off the dealers floor for comparison, commented that mine was minimal and quite good compared to the brand new one! Anyway, DFT guy advised my dealer to do an alignment and try and adjust the castor or camber (apparently this can be done minimally), but NOT make it worse. So on Tuesday it goes in again. More to follow.....

[LXRY]

Had DFT check mine out today. Noted there was drift and camber sensitivity but after testing another Euro off the dealers floor for comparison, commented that mine was minimal and quite good compared to the brand new one! Anyway, DFT guy advised my dealer to do an alignment and try and adjust the castor or camber (apparently this can be done minimally), but NOT make it worse. So on Tuesday it goes in again. More to follow.....


Ive got a funny feeling there is no more adjustment left on the sub frame, like mine....some euros must be worse than others...hey woogler can you ask honda to explain what happened in the first place....for them to adjust the sub frame.....it would be great to find out what actually happened, get ready for some crap....ask for a copy of the service bulletin aswell, might as well :thumbsup:

[aaronng]

If they are adjusting the rear subframe, that means they are just trying to alter the rear camber and toe. Get a camber kit and that will do the same without messing with the subframe.

[Suntzu]

Yep. Mine was drifting till I dropped it on the Tein SS and got a GOOD alignment done as specified by me with 0 front toe and 2 mm rear toe. All good now. Better than good really. Tracks like a champion.

[LXRY]

If they are adjusting the rear subframe, that means they are just trying to alter the rear camber and toe. Get a camber kit and that will do the same without messing with the subframe.


I doubt it would be the rear sub frame....every adjustment done has been the front sub frame.....

just something to consider.....

After lowering my car (no difference what so ever).

My car started pulling right "excessively than normal, under right camber" after they adjusted front sub frame.....still the same after lowering.

Tyres starting to wear on front already, the rear look as if I just put them on.

Don't think woogler lowered...don't quote me on that too late at night cbf to check lol ;)

[aaronng]

I doubt it would be the rear sub frame....every adjustment done has been the front sub frame.....

just something to consider.....

After lowering my car (no difference what so ever).

My car started pulling right "excessively than normal, under right camber" after they adjusted front sub frame.....still the same after lowering.

Tyres starting to wear on front already, the rear look as if I just put them on.

Don't think woogler lowered...don't quote me on that too late at night cbf to check lol ;)
When you adjust the subframe, you cannot adjust toe and camber individually. If you get toe back to spec, the camber goes out of spec. That's why when I drove your car, it felt very fidgety and undecided on which way it wanted to pull.

Your car is lower than mine, and since your subframe was adjusted, your pulling was not as bad as mine. Even so, on my car it pulled only to the right. With yours, it feels unstable and wants to go in every direction (but slightly). So I think your alignment settings on your rear suspension is just a compromise. Have you managed to source a camber kit yet?

Your new front tyres wearing so quickly could mean that your front toe is out of spec. Why did they adjust your front subframe too? There is no need for that since you are able to adjust toe at the front.

[Woogler]

Just spoke with svc mgr. He was intending to screw with the sub frame. Not allowing that.

[aaronng]

Just spoke with svc mgr. He was intending to screw with the sub frame. Not allowing that.

If you are planning to keep your car long term, pay the $250-300 for a rear camber kit. It's great if someone kerbs your rims and you need to get the alignment adjusted again.

[tony1234]

Yep. Mine was drifting till I dropped it on the Tein SS and got a GOOD alignment done as specified by me with 0 front toe and 2 mm rear toe. All good now. Better than good really. Tracks like a champion.
This probably explains why i've never had these issues.At less than 1k i changed to Bilsteins, Eibachs, rear camber kit and then good 4 wheel alignment.Now 21k later no problems.:thumbsup:

[E-Gene]

Rear camber kit sounds like a better idea. Mine is starting to drift right pretty bad and I'm using a lot of strength just to keep the car straight.

Will bring is back to the dealer to see if he can do anything about it first.

[aaronng]

Rear camber kit sounds like a better idea. Mine is starting to drift right pretty bad and I'm using a lot of strength just to keep the car straight.

Will bring is back to the dealer to see if he can do anything about it first.
They can't do anything other than adjust the subframe. :)

If it was me, I wouldn't want anyone, not even the dealer, adjusting my subframe away from factory specs.

[V205]

Has anyone just said to the whoever is looking at the drift-to-the-right problem that changing tyres or just changing to the stock 16" solves the problem?

Why are they still looking at major subframe adjustments... wheel alignment etc if it doesn't need it on other brands of tyres?

I can't believe this is still going. The problem now is changing to other tyres will require a lot of reversing of previous adjustments to suit RE040's, assuming it was done for those who had this problem.

Just changing the 2 front tyres will be enough to stop the problem in the first place and use the front RE040 for the back as the 2nd set.

[aaronng]

Has anyone just said to the whoever is looking at the drift-to-the-right problem that changing tyres or just changing to the stock 16" solves the problem?

Why are they still looking at major subframe adjustments... wheel alignment etc if it doesn't need it on other brands of tyres?

Because changing the tyres or going to 16"s will cost the dealers money. They rather adjust the subframe than do a proper fix.

[^__^ SM ^__^]

My stock std Euro just came back from 20K service and got the tyres rotated. They swapped front and rear but not left and right. Now it's drifting to the right; especially when braking and the steering wheel twists up to 45 degrees to the right. When driving, I have to fight to keep it from drifting right.

I know it is an aligment issue but could the rotation and balance @ the dealer screw it up so bad?

[rhettzor]

If the drift is that drastic, it can sometimes be the air pressure (which is easily overlooked). Check that out, top 'em up if they need it and see how you go :)

If its not the air pressure, be sure to take it back to where you had it serviced!

[aaronng]

My stock std Euro just came back from 20K service and got the tyres rotated. They swapped front and rear but not left and right. Now it's drifting to the right; especially when braking and the steering wheel twists up to 45 degrees to the right. When driving, I have to fight to keep it from drifting right.

I know it is an aligment issue but could the rotation and balance @ the dealer screw it up so bad?
Just swap the tyres back to test. :)

[commonman00]

This is probably a little off topic.
I'm planning to replace the stock dunlop tyres on my 2004 Euro lux with a set of Conti Sports Contacts. They have done about 36ks.
My car has been drifting to the right slightly (ie. if I let the steering wheel go, the car will drift to the right by itself and I have to correct the steering left). It only started drifted to the right in the last month of so. I think it may be due to the tyre wear. I have checked the tyre pressure to make sure that it is not causing the drift. My question is should I get a wheel alignment at the tyre shop when the new Contis are put on? The reason I ask is because I read somewhere that the alignment/drifting became worse after a wheel alignment was done. I'm planning to get the tyre shop to provide me with the alignment record. But is it possible for the car to drift when the alignment record shows the correct values?

[^__^ SM ^__^]

I checked my tyre pressure today and all is good. Not sure why it's still drifting. The guy at Beaurepairs quote me $50 to align all 4 tyres (laser alignment apparently). Is this a good price? should i go ahead with this or something else you suggest first. Also, do you have any recommendations on a good wheel alignment place?

[yfin]

I checked my tyre pressure today and all is good. Not sure why it's still drifting. The guy at Beaurepairs quote me $50 to align all 4 tyres (laser alignment apparently). Is this a good price? should i go ahead with this or something else you suggest first. Also, do you have any recommendations on a good wheel alignment place?

That price is fine. Laser alignment is fine everywhere. The difficult part is the adjustment. Beaurepairs do alignments day in and day out so I wouldn't hesitate to go there.

[^__^ SM ^__^]

Had my wheel aligned today. Car seems to go straighter now. no more drifting.

But now the steering doesn't return after a turn like it used to, ie. i have to actively turn it back to get the car going straight. I almost went around a round-about twice. :) Does everyone elses Euro's steering return or not?

the print out of the alignment showed my Front toe was -1.4mm on the left and -2.0mm on the right. and Rear toe was -0.1mm on the right. That was all that needed to be adjusted. after adjustment, it was +0.4mm on left and +0.1mm on right at the front, and +0.6mm at right rear.

They also flipped the 1 tyre on the rim. I wonder why this was done.

another warning on the printout was my rear camber. it is -1.74 on left and -0.49 on right. they said the rear camber wasn't adjustable.

I am seeking your opinion regarding these values and about the now "passive" steering. THanks very much. :)

[aaronng]

I checked my tyre pressure today and all is good. Not sure why it's still drifting. The guy at Beaurepairs quote me $50 to align all 4 tyres (laser alignment apparently). Is this a good price? should i go ahead with this or something else you suggest first. Also, do you have any recommendations on a good wheel alignment place?

If you don't have a rear camber kit, you can only align the front toe. :) The rear toe can be slightly altered but not by much. Tyrepower here charges $28-30 for front wheel alignment, $55 for 4 wheel.

[aaronng]

This is probably a little off topic.
I'm planning to replace the stock dunlop tyres on my 2004 Euro lux with a set of Conti Sports Contacts. They have done about 36ks.
My car has been drifting to the right slightly (ie. if I let the steering wheel go, the car will drift to the right by itself and I have to correct the steering left). It only started drifted to the right in the last month of so. I think it may be due to the tyre wear. I have checked the tyre pressure to make sure that it is not causing the drift. My question is should I get a wheel alignment at the tyre shop when the new Contis are put on? The reason I ask is because I read somewhere that the alignment/drifting became worse after a wheel alignment was done. I'm planning to get the tyre shop to provide me with the alignment record. But is it possible for the car to drift when the alignment record shows the correct values?

Try swapping your tyres left to right first.

[aaronng]

Had my wheel aligned today. Car seems to go straighter now. no more drifting.

But now the steering doesn't return after a turn like it used to, ie. i have to actively turn it back to get the car going straight. I almost went around a round-about twice. :) Does everyone elses Euro's steering return or not?
It's because they set it to toe in.



the print out of the alignment showed my Front toe was -1.4mm on the left and -2.0mm on the right. and Rear toe was -0.1mm on the right. That was all that needed to be adjusted. after adjustment, it was +0.4mm on left and +0.1mm on right at the front, and +0.6mm at right rear.
They put the front toe inwards because that improves straight line stability and reduces pulling to the side when on cambered roads.



They also flipped the 1 tyre on the rim. I wonder why this was done.
Probably because that tyre was worn on one edge.



another warning on the printout was my rear camber. it is -1.74 on left and -0.49 on right. they said the rear camber wasn't adjustable.
Only way to get that adjustable is with an ingalls camber kit.

[LXRY]

Just an update on the drifting problems Honda facing........

It seems honda CRV doing the same thing, worldwide.

Just one link of the many I have read, Honda seems to be blaming Bridgstone tyres...pffft, what a joke.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f14721a

Mine still pulling to the right, excessevily under right camber * rubs his right sore shoulder.

[tony1234]

Just an update on the drifting problems Honda facing........

It seems honda CRV doing the same thing, worldwide.

Just one link of the many I have read, Honda seems to be blaming Bridgstone tyres...pffft, what a joke.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f14721a

Mine still pulling to the right, excessevily under right camber * rubs his right sore shoulder.
What tyres do you have LXRY?Re:suspension setup,you have pretty much what i have,same drop,camber kit(i have Bilstein shocks) same springs as you(Eibach).I now have 32K,still on the Continentals and NO drifting at all.:confused:

[cgspot]

That is the question.
If Honda admit that it is the tyre then why did they supply me with two new Bridgestone tyres after much ado?
This however did rectify the issue for a while, then it surfaced again.
At the next service the dealer did something which stopped the car pulling to the right, but now the stearing wheel does not actually come back to center, it has a constant angle to the right while cruising straight and there is more resistance turning left than turning right.
Me ... I'm annoyed, first time Honda owner and really upset with the follow up action for this problem.
Love the car very much, but I'm not sure if I'll ever buy another Honda due to the lack of help and the amount of run around I have had to endure.
They still need to fix this problem.

[Suntzu]

I had the issue with my 05 Euro and it was finally fixed by getting a proper tyre place to align it as per my specifications.

I also have a2007 CRV Lux and its has no issue at all with tracking.

[tony1234]

That is the question.
If Honda admit that it is the tyre then why did they supply me with two new Bridgestone tyres after much ado?
This however did rectify the issue for a while, then it surfaced again.
At the next service the dealer did something which stopped the car pulling to the right, but now the stearing wheel does not actually come back to center, it has a constant angle to the right while cruising straight and there is more resistance turning left than turning right.
Me ... I'm annoyed, first time Honda owner and really upset with the follow up action for this problem.
Love the car very much, but I'm not sure if I'll ever buy another Honda due to the lack of help and the amount of run around I have had to endure.
They still need to fix this problem.
IMO it seems to be a combination of tyre 1st.,then car 2nd.as in it has to be set up(aligned) properly by someone who knows what they're doing.

[aaronng]

That is the question.
If Honda admit that it is the tyre then why did they supply me with two new Bridgestone tyres after much ado?
Because if they supply you with any other tyre brand, they would be out of pocket (dealer). Honda probably gives only OEM equipment, and that is the dunlop 2050m for the 16" and bridgestone RE040 for the 17".

[LXRY]

I replaced my tyres with michelins pilot sports ages ago made no difference at all.........less tramlining maybe due too chunkyness of the tread.

After lowering the car pulling right indentical to when it was stock !!

Have had 5 wheel alignments aswell.....yes i did lower my car but got alignment kits for both front and back no change.

After they adjusted frame fixed drifting on straight road but then caused excessive pulling under right camber *rubbing his sore right shoulder.

I spoke to head office Bridgestone where they told me that they had tested the tyres that Honda aust. had sent them and they assured me that nothing wrong with the tyres !!

I also found another service bulletin some of the extremes they are going too to rectify it's unbelievable


http://rapidshare.com/files/89164026/99-07_models_pulling_or_drifting_06-068.pdf

Check it out !!

NOT THE TYRES !!!!