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Ferrarista
13-06-2005, 06:53 PM
Hi All,

Ive had my Euro for 6 months now and once in a while it struggles to start. When i took it into service Honda said that if its intermitent they cant do anything, after the service it stoped doing it but now is. It just doesnt want to turn over then after a few seconds its turns on,

Anyone else experience this?

albii
13-06-2005, 07:05 PM
sorry no....never had any probs with starting...might be just a minor issue though.

PERTH_EURO
13-06-2005, 07:05 PM
yes i have experianced this too

I just put it down to the fact my car only gets driven 1 week out of 3.

I have not mentioned anything to the service guys

Ferrarista
13-06-2005, 07:29 PM
yes i have experianced this too

I just put it down to the fact my car only gets driven 1 week out of 3.

I have not mentioned anything to the service guys

Ah ok, well so far ive nearly done 20,000kms in 6 months, i do alot of driving because im a rep and it still does it. Weird

V205
13-06-2005, 07:55 PM
Do you wait a few seconds in the key-turn stage II? It primes up the fuel pump first... THEN turn to stage III which turns the engine.

EDIT: wouldn't hurt to step on the gas a bit too when cranking too if it still doesn't like to start

chiao_ssu
13-06-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm going to get my car service this friday and I told to the tech. and they said that the car will start a few sec if the green key is still on cos it need to build up the pressure. so next time check for the green key to go off first before you start the engin.

Ferrarista
13-06-2005, 08:13 PM
Yeah i guess so, it makes scence. Pumping the gas wont make a difference because its EFI.

Its just that, i never had a problem like that with any of my Bimers. I'll watch out for it and see if im doing anything wrong. Usually, i put the key and turn on straight away - maybe thats why its happening.

Ronin
13-06-2005, 08:22 PM
Green key? I think its the immobiliser... after a few kicks, it disengages and allows the car to start. Nothing uncommon. happens in most WRXs but they ahve a crunching sort of sound when you turn the key.

Only probs i had when i turn and stop just before its about to fire... then it takes sometime for it to start after that. Probably waits for the gases to clear before trying to ignite again.

My 2 cents

MiSloVic
14-06-2005, 10:29 AM
Hi All,

Ive had my Euro for 6 months now and once in a while it struggles to start. When i took it into service Honda said that if its intermitent they cant do anything, after the service it stoped doing it but now is. It just doesnt want to turn over then after a few seconds its turns on,

Anyone else experience this?
is yours an auto car? the current civic has a slight problem with the auto transmission, in that the gearbox does not sensed that it is in 'P' properly. I'm not too sure if it will affect the auto euro.

viperx
14-06-2005, 10:29 AM
does it click when you turn the key? if it clicks but doesn't turn, your starter plunger is going, but no current is going thru. might be a bad starter.

Ferrarista
14-06-2005, 07:28 PM
does it click when you turn the key? if it clicks but doesn't turn, your starter plunger is going, but no current is going thru. might be a bad starter.

Its a manual.


Its turns, but needs a few winds before it kicks in.

coladuna
14-06-2005, 10:27 PM
With my car, I find that sometimes the engine starts very weak.
This only happens when the engine's already warmed up and never happens when I leave home for work. It never fails to start, but it can take a couple of seconds to start whereas when the engine's cold, it starts instantly.

euro77
14-06-2005, 10:28 PM
same with my car. sometimes when you start it, it seems to die, but did start after 1-2 seconds.

Ferrarista
14-06-2005, 10:39 PM
Hmm, thats strange. Thats 3 people its happening too with the exact same symptoms. Weird

adammet04
14-06-2005, 10:54 PM
Soz to hijack slightly, but In terms of starting euro for auto, there is a slight problem i have had where it doesnt sense park...i usually shift out and back into it or just move it a little to make it sense it..it wont even let you turn the key if this happens...

the prob in quesiton does sound a little more mechanical/electrical, due to three people reporting same thing....keep us posted !

revolution
14-06-2005, 10:59 PM
My friends Euro had the same problem of not starting up properly sometimes. Took it down to Robert at Hanny's and he said he reset the fuel map. Problem hasnt come back after 6months and counting....

Ferrarista
04-09-2005, 02:35 PM
Just to bump this thread.

Mine is still doing it and for the first time yesterday it tried to start and couldnt then turned off. Each time i say it to Honda their answer is "we'll reset the ecu", they have done that twice now. Seriously, wtf

me_kevinly
04-09-2005, 02:47 PM
wow im really surprise, so im not the only one with this problem
i think its just a normal thing for euro

aaronng
04-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Hi Kevin. Just wondering, do you when you are about to turn your engine off, do you let it idle for about 2-3 seconds? Or do you arrive at your destination, stop, go to P, pull handbrake and turn off immediately?

I also get this once in a while, where I counted that I needed 4 turns of the starter before the engine started. But when cold and it's the first start of the day, the engine starts fine. I suspect that the injectors for some reason spray a bit too much fuel into the manifold as soon as your stop your car, so when we turn off, we end up with some fuel in the cylinder. Just speculating.

EuroAccord13
04-09-2005, 06:51 PM
Question, does it happen in colder days or it's random?

me_kevinly
04-09-2005, 07:46 PM
Hi Kevin. Just wondering, do you when you are about to turn your engine off, do you let it idle for about 2-3 seconds? Or do you arrive at your destination, stop, go to P, pull handbrake and turn off immediately?

normally turn off turn off immediately

aaronng
04-09-2005, 08:52 PM
normally turn off turn off immediately
Oooh... I found that by stopping the car, don't touch the accelerator for about 2-3 seconds to let it idle and then turn off helps it start easier.

nexace
04-09-2005, 11:35 PM
How about dodgy spark plugs, spark plug cables and starter motor?

EuroAccord13
04-09-2005, 11:51 PM
I won't recommend killing the engine the moment you arrive at your destination, give it a few seconds to complete the combustion and then switch it off...

aaronng
05-09-2005, 01:06 AM
I won't recommend killing the engine the moment you arrive at your destination, give it a few seconds to complete the combustion and then switch it off...
:thumbsup: I've started doing this and rarely have to crank the starter for a long time to start.

Ferrarista
05-09-2005, 01:43 AM
Guys, thats not the point. On a brand new car with 20,000kms this shouldnt be a problem to the extent that the car doesnt even turn on the first time..

It happens randomly

aaronng
05-09-2005, 02:30 AM
Mine turns on the first time. The starter just has to crank a little longer. How many cranks are you holding for before you try again?

as001
05-09-2005, 10:31 AM
Could it be a battery issue?

D R U
06-09-2005, 10:51 AM
Could it be a battery issue?

Yeah i think it might be a battery problem.

Have you checked your fluid levels?

aaronng
06-09-2005, 11:15 AM
It's not a battery issue, because this has happened to me when my car was new, and the fluid levels in the sealed battery were sufficient. In my opinion, it is the combination of the long stroke of the engine (99mm) and a wet sparkplug that results in the difficulty with starting. The engine does start. You just have to hold the key longer.

Lowenhart
18-09-2005, 04:58 PM
I get the same problem too. Only 2 times in 9 months I've had it though. Both times were when the car was already warm....went to shops came back, try to start first time it wouldn't fire up. Cranked it again and it was ok...

kam
18-09-2005, 05:24 PM
yeh i noticed that you have to 'crank' or watever its called when you turn the key to start the car, it takes a while with the euro, maybe 1 -2 seconds, wheras with another car we have, the car starts in about half a crank, or .5 of a second...

Ferrarista
18-09-2005, 08:47 PM
Today it turned off twice before starting, i have to do something about it

Suntzu
18-09-2005, 11:47 PM
Mine does this too its got 5000km and is a manual. Wierd

Ferrarista
19-09-2005, 12:17 AM
Mine does this too its got 5000km and is a manual. Wierd

Has yours turned off though?

Suntzu
19-09-2005, 09:27 AM
Mine doesnt turn off once its running. My Magna sports would start in 1/2 a turn as stated above EVERY time. Its strange that the honda feels like its sick sometime when I know its not given mine basically brand new.

aaronng
19-09-2005, 11:29 AM
What do you mean by turn off!?


When cold, it takes me just 1 turn of the key, but you can hear the starter motor turn 4 times before the engine starts. (In comparison, 94' Accord takes 1 crank! Yes, an 11 year old car starts quicker)

When warm and I didn't let it idle for 3-5 seconds before turning off, it might not start with 1 turn of the key but might need 2. If it does start with 1 turn, then it'll take about 4 cranks but then the rev stays at 300-500rpm or so and struggles to get up to idle rpm. After that it is fine. I think this is because of wet plugs.

If I had previously let it idle for 5 seconds, then it starts with 1 turn of the key, 4 cranks.

I think the Euro takes longer to start because of the long stroke length.

Ferrarista
19-09-2005, 01:04 PM
What do you mean by turn off!?


When cold, it takes me just 1 turn of the key, but you can hear the starter motor turn 4 times before the engine starts. (In comparison, 94' Accord takes 1 crank! Yes, an 11 year old car starts quicker)

When warm and I didn't let it idle for 3-5 seconds before turning off, it might not start with 1 turn of the key but might need 2. If it does start with 1 turn, then it'll take about 4 cranks but then the rev stays at 300-500rpm or so and struggles to get up to idle rpm. After that it is fine. I think this is because of wet plugs.

If I had previously let it idle for 5 seconds, then it starts with 1 turn of the key, 4 cranks.

I think the Euro takes longer to start because of the long stroke length.


Basically it starts to crank then dies and turns off

aaronng
19-09-2005, 02:08 PM
Basically it starts to crank then dies and turns off
Damn.. that doesn't sound good. I hope that it is reproducible so that you can show the dealer your problem.

With mine, it will crank and keep on cranking as long as I hold the key.

Edit: Or do you mean you crank it and it starts. You let go of the key and then the revs start to drop and then the engine dies? If it is this, then it has happened to me, when I don't let the engine idle before shutting it.

ant234
19-09-2005, 02:44 PM
I've just experienced it lately too. It only happened once, but it NEARLY died... the rpm went really low for 1-2 sec... then it went back normally...
Can't blame Canberra's weather... its warm enough now!

Ferrarista
20-09-2005, 01:00 AM
Damn.. that doesn't sound good. I hope that it is reproducible so that you can show the dealer your problem.

With mine, it will crank and keep on cranking as long as I hold the key.

Edit: Or do you mean you crank it and it starts. You let go of the key and then the revs start to drop and then the engine dies? If it is this, then it has happened to me, when I don't let the engine idle before shutting it.

No, you do a full lock of the key and it starts to crank and after a few times just shuts off and dies.

aaronng
20-09-2005, 11:11 AM
No, you do a full lock of the key and it starts to crank and after a few times just shuts off and dies.
Okok, then it's better to get your dealer to check it out as it is not normal. Good luck! I hope you can reproduce it on the spot for the dealer to see.

Omotesando
07-10-2005, 05:14 AM
Hey Guys!

I have the same problem - the car is still only within its first 2000Kms, but sometimes when the car is still slightly warm, say I have left car for around 15 minutes and came back - it takes a few more cranks than usual (around 3-4) to start it up, and when it does that (not regularly but enough that I notice it) it feels like the car wants to die.



I THINK this is a very big, recurrent problem with the Euro accords.



But by the sounds of it, that it happens only when warm, etc,. it might be Fuel Vapour Lock which prevents car from starting easily.



Ferratista - if your problem is still ongoing even after battery is fully charged, may be we could do a group effort/complain and help get your car fixed! Personally this is the only thing that I am not overly happy about my new car.

kam
07-10-2005, 05:47 AM
this doesnt sound too good, sounds like more than just a few members with problems now :(

hope it doesnt tarnish the euros record

aaronng
07-10-2005, 12:21 PM
New update. I have checked the idle speed after I stop the car from driving. And it's about 900rpm! Wait 3 seconds, then it goes down to 800 and a little more down to 750rpm. So you might need more than 5 seconds of idling before turning your engine off to prevent this difficulty in starting. I've tried just 2 seconds, and I had the same problem starting as Omotesando described.

MIRZ
07-10-2005, 01:34 PM
what a crap, car worth 42-44 k, needs this way to turn off and startup. just cant believe. sounds like honda is in too much hurry to release new cars. honda must fix this problem otherwise its gonna be tough regain market once it lost for honda.

aaronng
07-10-2005, 02:50 PM
It's due to emissions requirements. You can't release unburnt hydrocarbons into the air anymore. Hence the revs maintaining above idle to burn the remaining fuel instead of releasing it out the exhaust. If you did shut it off before the fuel was burnt, I'm sure there is a design element to prevent that fuel from being released and keeping it in the cylinder volume instead.

Justin L
07-10-2005, 07:52 PM
Had this problem today. Car has just had 1k service. It's no big deal, just had to crank it again.

Ferrarista
07-10-2005, 08:49 PM
Hey Guys!

I have the same problem - the car is still only within its first 2000Kms, but sometimes when the car is still slightly warm, say I have left car for around 15 minutes and came back - it takes a few more cranks than usual (around 3-4) to start it up, and when it does that (not regularly but enough that I notice it) it feels like the car wants to die.



I THINK this is a very big, recurrent problem with the Euro accords.



But by the sounds of it, that it happens only when warm, etc,. it might be Fuel Vapour Lock which prevents car from starting easily.



Ferratista - if your problem is still ongoing even after battery is fully charged, may be we could do a group effort/complain and help get your car fixed! Personally this is the only thing that I am not overly happy about my new car.

Hey dude,

Now that you've mentioned it yes ive noticed it only happens once the car is warm, bascially turning it on after i have just driven it.

For the guy who said it happens to him but its not a problem, just crank it again....Its a new car, its not acceptable for this to happen. Imagine trying to sell it, and the new owner jumps in and it doesnt start on him? Its like the new pepsi adds that say "dont worry, there's no sugar"

If you live in Sydney we should do something about this, i serivce my car at Trivetts and basically its not leaving its next service untill its been fixed or a detailed explination has been given with future hope of getting it fixed.

It happened to me again today :thumbdwn:

On the positive note, this week i had 4 people randomly tell me that my car looked nice :D and 2 old men on different occasions ask me "What does your number plate mean? :D

coladuna
07-10-2005, 10:39 PM
I haven't had this happen to me recently for some reason.
Maybe I didn't drive off soon enough after turning off the engine.
Mine never failed to start though. It just sounds like it's struggling to start.
Maybe I'll try it tommorow. Drive for a bit, stop the engine and the start after 30 sec or so.
It doesn't really bother me a great deal, but might be worth mentioning when I go in for my next service. I'm pretty sure they'll come up with excuses like "It's normal" or "We couldn't replicate the problem, so you'll have to make another appointment to go on a drive with a service manager". I'm sick of hearing those two excuses from Honda dealers.

yfin
07-10-2005, 10:46 PM
Do you wait a few seconds in the key-turn stage II? It primes up the fuel pump first... THEN turn to stage III which turns the engine.

EDIT: wouldn't hurt to step on the gas a bit too when cranking too if it still doesn't like to start

One thing my dad once told me was NEVER touch the accelerator pedal when starting an EFI car (he is a motor mechanic). I'll ask him why next time I see him.

Omotesando
07-10-2005, 10:56 PM
Mine never failed to start though. It just sounds like it's struggling to start.
Maybe I'll try it tommorow. Drive for a bit, stop the engine and the start after 30 sec or so.




Mine is the same, it hasn't failed to start, just feels like its not starting right!

I think what you should try is turn it off, for around 5 or 10 min, then restart it to see if it happens. That should be symptoms for Fuel Vapour Lock, which there is no fix I believe.


Ferrarista - I am in melbourne but if hey, if we complain to Honda's top level, not that they might care, anyway, the problem is yours has a slightly bigger problem than my car (may be because mine is still only below 2000km).... And I COMPLETELY agree with you and others, this is not acceptable for a newish car. :(

EuroDude
04-04-2006, 09:38 AM
[sorry to dig up an old thread]


I think this problem is common to all Euro's.

Ive had my MY06 Euro for only a week and it also takes 5 or 6 turns to start (It has never failed to start tho).
And one time is started instantly then bogged for a few seconds and started up.
strange...

My EG Civic on the other hand starts much quicker - sometimes on the first turn (half a second) :eek:

chunsa
04-04-2006, 10:26 PM
03 std manual euro

~40k km

ive also noticed this problem..

when u try to start it sometimes takes a longer time to start up

this only occurs when the car has been driven -> arrive at destination -> turn off -> then turn back on a bit later

it does not "die" or anything but just takes longer than usual to start than say first starting the car for the day

however following what aaron has said about letting the car idle a bit before turning the car off seemed to solve a bit of the problem but it still happens..

seems like with the newer 06 models the problem is still there :thumbdwn:

Omotesando
04-04-2006, 10:36 PM
"this only occurs when the car has been driven -> arrive at destination -> turn off -> then turn back on a bit later

it does not "die" or anything but just takes longer than usual to start than say first starting the car for the day"



Yes this is exactly what happens.
My car stopped doing this now however, whereas some others in extreme cases have trouble starting the car during this period.

No one has confirmed it is fuel vapour lock though. But if you idle it a bit first and it works, that is a good indication as you let car cool down first.

hengis
10-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Sorry to revive the same thread, but I'm getting the same problem in my '06, and its annoying me, cuz its happening on a weekly basis.

Can you guys give me an update on what you did about the problem, and what honda was able to do, and whether it helped?

aaronng
10-08-2006, 12:31 PM
I added a ground cable from the alternator to the chassis. Then my warm starting problems disappeared. Weird as it shouldn't affect it but it did. Now my warm starting is much quicker than my cold starting.

EuroDude
10-08-2006, 12:38 PM
hms thats interesting. Do you have a pic?

MiSloVic
10-08-2006, 01:39 PM
my euro is difficult to crank as well.. needs about 4-5 cranks, before it will start.. once, i left the car at the airport for 1 wk, and the battery went dead flat..
i have a feeling that there could be a current leak somewhere..

wonder if anyone have the same problem?

hengis
10-08-2006, 02:37 PM
aaron: can you elaborate on your grounding job?
is this a diy? if so, can u give details on whats required.

i'm more inclined to handball it to the dealer though rather than diy it

aaronng
10-08-2006, 02:41 PM
It's in the DIY section. I changed the ground cable that connects the negative terminal to the chassis and there was no difference. But after I added the cable from the alternator to the chassis, there was an improvement in warm starting. Not sure if it was the ground cable's doing, but there seems to be an improvement.

http://ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45719

Alternator point:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8927/alternator9vg.jpg

Chassis point:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7868/negativeterminal2pv.jpg

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 03:17 PM
well, there are 'grounding' kits for most cars, apparently they even increase power (a few kw) but IMO you can never have too much grounding. unless you go stupid with it :)

but thats a very nice and clean job there aaron! the alternator doesnt assist with cranking. its the starter that needs the BIG ground wire

EuroDude
10-08-2006, 03:26 PM
erm, isnt the Starter and Alternator the same thing? Or am I imagining things?

Chris_F
10-08-2006, 03:32 PM
I wonder if a battery with more CCA would help with this problem?

Grounding is important aswell I'd imagine. Aaronn, have you considered attatching your alternator ground to a different chassis point? The length of the wire could be creating some resistance.

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 03:47 PM
starter is attached to the flywheel, the alternator is what you have wired up right now on the front of the motor. the alternator charges the battery. your wiring is not a bad thing however, good grounding is always better.

yes CCAs may affect cold starts, as the CCA is a cold start rating. but dont forget most batteries are matched to the starter on the car, hence Cold Cranking Amps (CCA), or else every car would have the same battery. some starters are geared up/down etc

anyway aaron, the starter would be somewhere near where the gearbox mates to the motor. i suggest putting more grounding there, to the same chassis point you have used already, or something close by. or even replace the factory stuff. you may be onto something if you see an improvement with cold starts.

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 03:48 PM
The length of the wire could be creating some resistance.

i dont think so with that gauge of wire :)

aaronng
10-08-2006, 04:21 PM
aaron: can you elaborate on your grounding job?
is this a diy? if so, can u give details on whats required.

i'm more inclined to handball it to the dealer though rather than diy it
The dealer won't do it for you. LOL. It's either DIY or nothing in this case.

aaronng
10-08-2006, 04:26 PM
starter is attached to the flywheel, the alternator is what you have wired up right now on the front of the motor. the alternator charges the battery. your wiring is not a bad thing however, good grounding is always better.

yes CCAs may affect cold starts, as the CCA is a cold start rating. but dont forget most batteries are matched to the starter on the car, hence Cold Cranking Amps (CCA), or else every car would have the same battery. some starters are geared up/down etc

anyway aaron, the starter would be somewhere near where the gearbox mates to the motor. i suggest putting more grounding there, to the same chassis point you have used already, or something close by. or even replace the factory stuff. you may be onto something if you see an improvement with cold starts.
The grounding wire replacement that I did is at best a bandaid solution. The best would be to use a proper high CCA battery as you suggested. Our battery size is the same as for a civic. If for a short stroke engine, it is find. But for the k24a3 with its long 99mm stroke and large pistons, a battery suitable for the Civic would be marginal on the Euro.

I will ground the starter and gearbox as well as soon as I get my airbox off. The cable and connectors have been sitting in my room for over a month. Haven't had the time to do so yet. :)

So far I've replaced the negative terminal to chassis ground. I was thinking of replacing the engine block ground but seeing as the engine undergoes quite a degree of movement under full throttle, the flexible braided ground would be better suited than a short 4 gauge wire. Long 4 gauge does not pose as much of a problem as it is more flexible.

EuroDude
10-08-2006, 04:28 PM
Grounding may help the problem but personally I think its mainly due to the exhaust being routed back into the intake for emision purposes. Dunno if someone is willing to plug that route up and test this theory though :p

aaronng
10-08-2006, 04:33 PM
I wonder if a battery with more CCA would help with this problem?

Grounding is important aswell I'd imagine. Aaronn, have you considered attatching your alternator ground to a different chassis point? The length of the wire could be creating some resistance.
Yes, a battery with more CCA will help. Lots of TSX owners replaced them with the Optima yellowtop (and now they use redtop since YT51R has been discontinued).

Assuming that I used about 2 metres worth of cable for the alternator, that's 0.000000034 ohm of resistance based on OFC.

aaronng
10-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Grounding may help the problem but personally I think its mainly due to the exhaust being routed back into the intake for emision purposes. Dunno if someone is willing to plug that route up and test this theory though :p
Most GM cars from 1972 have EGR.... I don't think I've seen a holden with such a starting problem. They have other problems though... like injectors leaking fuel into the combustion chamber overnight, making it not possible to start since the plugs are wet. :)

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 07:07 PM
Grounding may help the problem but personally I think its mainly due to the exhaust being routed back into the intake for emision purposes. Dunno if someone is willing to plug that route up and test this theory though :p

its only EGR, most nissans have that removed for performance reasons :P

actually its not necessary if you use a 3-way cat. my S15 doesnt - (didnt by the time you read this) - have EGR but every SR20 model before that does.

depending on its configuration (i dont have my CL9 yet) there will be a pipe going back into the intake after the airfilter (maybe before), but BEFORE the AFM, coming from the exhaust area. plug it up to stop the flow, its probably a rubber hose, and the car might go a little better!

MiSloVic
10-08-2006, 08:04 PM
yeap.. the EGR.. this reminds me, I hadn't noticed any EGR valve near the engine block.. remember reading somewhere that the K24 does not need a EGR, as the EGR function is built into the engine itself.

euro77
10-08-2006, 09:39 PM
I think grounding kit makes a difference to the starting. I used to have Buddy Club grounding kit, and have no problems starting my car. Since it was taken off, the problem came back once a while.

EuroDude
10-08-2006, 09:54 PM
Here is what the dudes in the U.S. have to say about the hard starting. They mention the ULEV emissions features of the engine is the cause amongst other things.

http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4481&highlight=hard+start

Aparently in the TSX Manual, regarding the long startup, it says:
"That's fine...it's just the engine cycling the gases from the fuel...all part of the emissions system"


.

Chris_F
10-08-2006, 10:01 PM
Yes, a battery with more CCA will help. Lots of TSX owners replaced them with the Optima yellowtop (and now they use redtop since YT51R has been discontinued).

Assuming that I used about 2 metres worth of cable for the alternator, that's 0.000000034 ohm of resistance based on OFC.

lol see all that resistance is your problem :o

but yea it probably has a lot to do with the properties of the k24 and an inadequate starter motor / battery. My girlfriends ek civic cranks over at least twice as fast as my car.

EuroDude
10-08-2006, 10:05 PM
but yea it probably has a lot to do with the properties of the k24 and an inadequate starter motor / battery. My girlfriends ek civic cranks over at least twice as fast as my car.

My Civic sometimes only takes one turn (almost instant) to start up. The Euro's quickest is like 3 turns :o

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 10:07 PM
try starting a scooby! my old 2.2L liberty kicks over for a few seconds before it starts :)

civiceg9
10-08-2006, 10:38 PM
I have notice this when I drive my friends Euro around.
but I recently change the way I start his car, I turn the key to on waiting until the engine check is off then I turn the key and it usually start instant.
You may want to try this method.

ZEi20T
10-08-2006, 10:46 PM
i had no problems when i test drove mine. it had been sitting for over a week not moved. i think from habit of my S15 that i let the pump prime (its friggen loud) before i kick the engine over.

im sure its been mentioned before, but have you checked your plugs? are they burnt? coked up? need regapping?

Omotesando
10-08-2006, 11:56 PM
My old S15 even modded (until I went to 740cc injectors) definitely cranked over at the 1st turn everytime, no matter what conditions.

The Euro Accord 'usually' cranks over in 1-2 cranks.
ZEi20T - the problem isn't that it doesn't cold start. The Euro Accord when u get it, you'll notice its hard to warm-start it. Say you were driving. Stopped for 10 minutes for shopping. Then start it again to drive off. It takes like 3-5 cranks and it feels like it wants to die.

Some people complain on here that they can't even warm-start their car the first time they turn the key. I don't think anyone is having problems with Cold Start as such? If ANYONE has cold-start problems, check that your battery is at 12.65V so you know its charged.

Anyway, what that all means is - the CCA in this case is irrelevant. CCA is a measurement of the Cranking Amps available at -18C for 30 seconds before it drops below a certain Voltage. If our Euro Accords can cold start not a problem at 5C in the morning or 0C, it clearly shows its not CCA related.

For warm-start problems you could look at the HCA instead, but this is related and 'nearly' proportional to the CCA anyway. So is the CCA is good enough for cold-start, the battery should be good enough for warm-starts as well.

Even though I mentioned it could well be Vapour Lock related, going by the symptoms...

My latest suspicion could be that after a 'certain warm period of time', the cylinder and the part of the engine block its touching might still be hot enough, while the remaining of the engine block itself has started to cool from the outside towards the inside. Knowing that Aluminium (Alloy) has one of the higher coefficient of thermal expansions, it could mean that part of the engine block is shrinking at this particular point in time whilst the central cylinder heads are still really hot and bigger. This resistance could make it hard to start the engine. The long stroke of the Engine doesn't help either, especially depending on the position the cylinders were parked before the car was switched off?

As such, even though I mentioned the CCA itself was irrelevant, the related normal Cranking Amps might indeed be relevant because more cranking amps means the the Starter Motor can crank harder.

You see, when we have the Warm Start Up problem - the Cranking noise is noticeably 'weaker' in sound, as if the engine isn't willing to turn over. As such, better grounding or a better battery might indeed work better under this situation. Not that it will help anymore with Cold-Start itself, because usually we don't have a problem with the car as it is anyway?

Using Synthetic oil in the engine probably helps too in any case? Or revving the engine a lot so the car's better run in?

aaronng
11-08-2006, 12:33 AM
I use synthetic oil and ran the car hard during run in and it still had the warm start problem. Eitherway, go to Jaycar, get 2 connectors and about 2 metres of 4 gauge cable. Cable will run you $12, while the connectors are $3 for the pair. Put them together, file the opening of one connector so that the alternator bolt fits, cable tie it down and give it a whirl. $15 for your warm starting problems if it helps. Wasting $15 first is better than getting one of those $130 capacitor kits or a $200 high CCA battery that might not solve the problem.

corn_flakes
11-08-2006, 10:27 AM
yeh i've noticed a few times when the engine struggles to start, and i'm not too sure why...

i've also noticed sometimes when the engine doesn't start at all...no cranking at all...not too sure if it has anythin to do with the immobiliser....coz it starts fine when i try it the 2nd time...

CIGXM
11-08-2006, 02:06 PM
Another thing as well with the idle.

Many new cars these days have an air sensor in the idle mechanism. If that gets clogged up with crap, you can sometimes have a hard time starting as there isn't enough air getting in and the sensor doesn't increase the engine's idle speed. I'm not sure about the Euro's idle setup, but the old throttle cable with a screw adjustment for idle speed, whilst low-tech, was a surefire way to get the idle speed where you wanted it to be.

EuroDude
11-08-2006, 02:26 PM
But the Euro's have the hard start issue when when new so I doubt thats the cause. Pretty sure its an emissions thing.

cgspot
11-08-2006, 02:41 PM
I have been told that pumping the accelerator while starting may affect the way the cars computer interprets its diagnostics for startup. Not sure how much of it is true?
I'm keen to find out why you don't do this to an EFI car?


One thing my dad once told me was NEVER touch the accelerator pedal when starting an EFI car (he is a motor mechanic). I'll ask him why next time I see him.

ZEi20T
11-08-2006, 11:26 PM
wow after driving tonight i see exactly what you all mean. my car needs to kick over a bit before it starts. and tonight it almost didnt start.

hmm ill investigate this myself also. ill start disconnecting sensors and testing it that way.

EuroDude
11-08-2006, 11:39 PM
I have been told that pumping the accelerator while starting may affect the way the cars computer interprets its diagnostics for startup. Not sure how much of it is true?
I'm keen to find out why you don't do this to an EFI car?

The Euro has DBW so would it do anything anyway? ..until the engine is actually running off course.

If I recall correctly, the manual says it de-floods the engine, or something along those lines.

drezy
10-01-2007, 11:14 PM
Ive only just recently started having this problem too... my car has 80,000kms on the clock... its 03 lux 6mt.. It started happening since the weather has warmed up to over 30C's... at first i thought i might have stuffed up the starter motor because i cranked while the aircon was on... and it kept happening ever since then.. now i realise its a common problem with accord euros.... i still will mention it to my dealer though next time i service..

EuroDude
11-01-2007, 08:18 AM
The TSX has the same problem. Some have upgraded to an Optima Yellow battery and also a voltage stabilizer, with promising results.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4481&highlight=hard+start

Pumped
11-01-2007, 09:57 AM
Mines had this problem basically since i got it, i have an optima yellow battery and it helped a bit but the problem still happens sometimes!

aaronng
11-01-2007, 10:40 AM
Ive only just recently started having this problem too... my car has 80,000kms on the clock... its 03 lux 6mt.. It started happening since the weather has warmed up to over 30C's... at first i thought i might have stuffed up the starter motor because i cranked while the aircon was on... and it kept happening ever since then.. now i realise its a common problem with accord euros.... i still will mention it to my dealer though next time i service..

If you are still on your original battery, that 300 CCA pos will have hard trouble starting most large cars by the time it's 3 years old. Consider replacing your battery with something about 400+ CCA (cost me $100-120).

aaronng
11-01-2007, 10:41 AM
The TSX has the same problem. Some have upgraded to an Optima Yellow battery and also a voltage stabilizer, with promising results.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4481&highlight=hard+start

Optima is not shipping anymore D51Rs though.... an alternative is the larger red top 35R. It'll fit if you remove the bottom battery tray and flip around the battery securing piece.

MiSloVic
11-01-2007, 09:54 PM
The Euro has DBW so would it do anything anyway? ..until the engine is actually running off course.

If I recall correctly, the manual says it de-floods the engine, or something along those lines.

dont belive DBW is the culprit. i've other cars with DBW, no such problems.

sendok
12-01-2007, 03:07 PM
try to always warm ur car every 2 days.. :p

EuroDude
12-01-2007, 03:17 PM
try to always warm ur car every 2 days.. :p

warm start, cold start, warm up, no warm up, hot, cold, hail, and shine, the euro is always hard to start.



The Jazz 1.3L has ULEV yeah?
when I drove one, it started instantly everytime. only took one crank and it was away.

Monty77
15-01-2007, 11:12 AM
Ours also had the 'longer than usual' start, but only once when it had about 1500k's on it. Hasn't happened again so far after 2800k's. This occurred on a hot day, after parking the car for about an hour. It started normally after a 'key off... on...wait... then try again.' We previously came from a 99 Wrx, and yep....seems like you wait forever for those to start.

Sob...sob...I still miss the rex.........:(

sendok
15-01-2007, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=EuroDude;1032681]warm start, cold start, warm up, no warm up, hot, cold, hail, and shine, the euro is always hard to start.

hmm... how long is be? i'm wondering what is the ideal time for start.. how many sec? i'm afraid mine also hard to start.. :(

EuroDude
15-01-2007, 12:21 PM
hmm... how long is be? i'm wondering what is the ideal time for start.. how many sec? i'm afraid mine also hard to start.. :(


Well each crank is something like 400ms, and the Euro takes at least 4 cranks to start, so:

Min 4 cranks = 1600ms
Avg 5 cranks = 2000ms
Max 7 cranks = 2800ms (this is rare, but sometimes the engine almost stalls and finally starts up at very low revs)

compared to say a Jazz which typically takes only 1 crank = 400ms

It has always started up though, ive never had to turn the key again.


The new Civic has a K20A3 yeah? I wander if that also has the long/hard start problem :confused:

ok2
15-01-2007, 01:31 PM
Yes, mine (a 2006 Std manual all stock) takes 4-5 turns of the crank to start. I usually let the fuel pump prime the pressure that but that does not seem to make any difference.

Last Saturday was walking past a 2006 Lux in a car park and it started really quickly like it was only 1 turn of the crank ! It looked totally standard so don't know if they had done anything special or were just "lucky".

Now my old 88 Civic (not fuel injected) would catch after 0.5-1 turns which was great. I' ve seen various explanations that characteristics of the car i.e.

- high compression
- long throw crank
- fuel injection
- weak battery

all cause this. Just find it odd that it otherwise nicely engineered car "struggles" to start.

EuroDude
15-01-2007, 01:48 PM
^ mine has started in just one crank once, I think it was after I turned the engine off while the revs were still high or something lol

99% of the time it takes 4-5 cranks though

80057
16-01-2007, 08:11 AM
i think someone said it before, and my lux is the same, after i let it go through the checks (and the other thing left is the selt belt light) it starts straight away 1or 2 cranks. but after a drive and a ten minute or so stop, it takes 4-5 cranks..wierd as euro dude said rarely i get the more the 5 crank almost stalling low rev start,

tony1234
16-01-2007, 08:17 AM
I think the battery could have something to do with it.i think it's only 300CAA.You can get batteries with higher CAA with the same footprint.This may eliminate or reduce this problem.

Pumped
16-01-2007, 08:19 AM
Optima is not shipping anymore D51Rs though.... an alternative is the larger red top 35R. It'll fit if you remove the bottom battery tray and flip around the battery securing piece.

The Yellow Top D75 (650cca) Optima fits with very minor changes



Has anyone ever had theres actually stall when trying to start it?
mine seems like its going to sometimes but ive never had it not start

EuroDude
16-01-2007, 08:32 AM
i think someone said it before, and my lux is the same, after i let it go through the checks (and the other thing left is the selt belt light) it starts straight away 1or 2 cranks. but after a drive and a ten minute or so stop, it takes 4-5 cranks..wierd as euro dude said rarely i get the more the 5 crank almost stalling low rev start,

This morning my euro started in just one crank, I think it depends on where the position the engine is rotated at when the engine is turned off.
I always wait for the fuel to prime before starting, but it still delays 4-5 cranks most of the time.

sendok
16-01-2007, 01:44 PM
i guess 4-5 crank should be consider as a standard time? my euro also around 4-5 atm i try.

drezy
16-01-2007, 04:18 PM
as of late my euro has been fairly random... generally in the mornings starting the engine cold can be anywhere from 6-10 cranks...!! when its warmer its 4-5 cranks... i have a feeling it may be my battery... will have to upgrade to a 650CCA one instead of the stock 300CCA...

blk05gli
16-01-2007, 09:42 PM
my experience - 4-5 in the mornings everyday, during the day - 4-8 especially on hot days. I am a sales rep so my car gets started very often - approx 8-10 times p/day.

Pumped
17-01-2007, 08:52 AM
as of late my euro has been fairly random... generally in the mornings starting the engine cold can be anywhere from 6-10 cranks...!! when its warmer its 4-5 cranks... i have a feeling it may be my battery... will have to upgrade to a 650CCA one instead of the stock 300CCA...

I currently have a 650cca battery and id have to say it helped a little bit but generally its still an issue, compared to any other newer cars ive had experience with its definately the slowest to start.

Ah well, getting used to it now so long as it doesnt start stalling i dont mind :p

EuroDude
17-01-2007, 09:00 AM
Yeh a battery wont solve the problem completely. Some TSX dudes have put a voltage regulator on the starter motors earth (I think thats how it works) and got good results.

Pretty sure the engines ULEV fuel return feature also has something to do with it.

power_of_dreams
03-10-2008, 12:45 AM
Any recommended voltage stabilizers to help the hard start?
Does ok if I turn the key two notches and wait for beeps and lights to stop then crank it. But if I crank straight away it only just makes it.

aaronng
03-10-2008, 04:36 AM
Voltage stabilisers do nothing for this.

Crapdaz
03-10-2008, 06:37 AM
Main reason - Battery CCA rating is too low on the stock battery.
Solution - Anything above 400CCA will definitely help.

Best to have all earthing straps done on the car.
Do it the same time you change your battery so it saves you time.

So change your negative battery cable>chassis --> 0/2/4G wire.
and also the other side if you can be stuffed. Engine mount>chassis

EuroDude
03-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Solution = get a higher capacity battery.

Mine starts much quicker now with a decent battery. I think its 400cca

power_of_dreams
03-10-2008, 01:11 PM
any particular batteries I should look out for

Crapdaz
03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
people like supercharge gold/ac delco and some others i can't think from the top of my head.

I've got korean solite.

tpphan
03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
The Optima D51 is a good option, same size as the OEM but with 450-500CCA. Its deep cycle as well, so if you plan on some audio work in the future, something to consider.

But its well above your average batt price.

The old batch is rated @ 500CCA, new batch is rated @ 450CCA. According to their website spec sheet. lol :)

power_of_dreams
03-10-2008, 01:38 PM
Nah I'm not running a soundsystem, so whats bang for your buck?

tpphan
03-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Nah I'm not running a soundsystem, so whats bang for your buck?

Shop around, i wouldn't paymore than $350.

aaronng
03-10-2008, 02:51 PM
The Optima D51 is a good option, same size as the OEM but with 450-500CCA. Its deep cycle as well, so if you plan on some audio work in the future, something to consider.

But its well above your average batt price.

The old batch is rated @ 450CCA, new batch is rated @ 500CCA. According to their website spec sheet. lol :)

The old batch was 500CCA. The new ones are 450CCA.

tpphan
03-10-2008, 02:52 PM
The old batch was 500CCA. The new ones are 450CCA.

Cools. You would think that the new one would be rated higher. lol

aaronng
03-10-2008, 02:59 PM
Cools. You would think that the new one would be rated higher. lol
The reason why it went down is because the 500CCA ones had a design defect where the spiral cells were too thin and were cracking. So now that they are 450CCA only, I am guessing that they have made the cells thicker to avoid the cracking problem.

Rob_A
03-10-2008, 06:36 PM
this is a problem I have had since new with mum's 05 euro and I also have this with my 05 euro. Both are manual.

I complained 10 times to my workshop controller when I was at a honda dealer and he was speechless. Was told by others in the workshop to try different premium fuels. A fuel pressure reg was done on mum's under warranty and did nothing. Put reports into Honda and never got anything back

FYI mum and I both have the hard start when hot, usually when the car has been parked for up to a few hours.

Crapdaz
04-10-2008, 10:47 AM
Normally occurs when its hot. But a change of battery normally minimises this problem occurring too often.

I have it still sometimes.

aaronng
04-10-2008, 04:33 PM
this is a problem I have had since new with mum's 05 euro and I also have this with my 05 euro. Both are manual.

I complained 10 times to my workshop controller when I was at a honda dealer and he was speechless. Was told by others in the workshop to try different premium fuels. A fuel pressure reg was done on mum's under warranty and did nothing. Put reports into Honda and never got anything back

FYI mum and I both have the hard start when hot, usually when the car has been parked for up to a few hours.

Try stopping the car, letting it idle for 10 seconds, then turn off. Then start it when hot. It helped me with the problem.

sodhi90
21-05-2009, 10:15 PM
ive owned my 03 euro for about 2 months, i bought it with 95ks on the clock and have experienced these laggy and sluggish starts I first got that sinking feeling of 'ohhh godd i bought a stuffed car' but i now understand its a common problem, it only happens every so often, i believe it only happens when i let of the key to early when starting, if i hold it on start until its started it usually starts fine but it still takes between 3-5 cranks :|, i sorta figured it was because if the high compression. its almost embarrassing when it barely starts , people see this nice flash Honda and then hear it start :S lol.

power_of_dreams
22-05-2009, 12:44 AM
wait for the system checks to finish before you crank, it starts much smoother.

aaronng
22-05-2009, 08:17 AM
ive owned my 03 euro for about 2 months, i bought it with 95ks on the clock and have experienced these laggy and sluggish starts I first got that sinking feeling of 'ohhh godd i bought a stuffed car' but i now understand its a common problem, it only happens every so often, i believe it only happens when i let of the key to early when starting, if i hold it on start until its started it usually starts fine but it still takes between 3-5 cranks :|, i sorta figured it was because if the high compression. its almost embarrassing when it barely starts , people see this nice flash Honda and then hear it start :S lol.

Check if you are still on the original 2003 battery. If you are, then it is time to change. Supercharge Gold and AC delco are good.

johnprocter
22-05-2009, 12:52 PM
man i had this problem too then eventually my car didnt even start and i had to get it towed and get a new starter motor so get it checked out !

sodhi90
22-05-2009, 05:43 PM
the battery is fairly new , december 08 if i read it properly so that should be good, i think what i read earlier sound right , if u let it idle for a few seconds then switch it off it starts alot nicer ! so it must be somthing to do with fuel or vapour in the chamber

aaronng
22-05-2009, 05:44 PM
the battery is fairly new , december 08 if i read it properly so that should be good, i think what i read earlier sound right , if u let it idle for a few seconds then switch it off it starts alot nicer ! so it must be somthing to do with fuel or vapour in the chamber

Ahh, so it is happening to you when you try to start the engine again after driving for a while? Then yes, that's normal. Just let it idle for a while like you said and it will help the next time you start it.