Sway Bars & Spring Rates

[ekslut]

Thought I should start a new thread about this seeing as though its been going on in a Wakefield times post and some people might not know its there: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2205&page=8&pp=12



Yes, correect. That is why we choose the softest spring rates with big sway bars.
Result = more compliance (increased grip) + adequate roll control + reduced chassis and component stress + improved tyre wear + easier to drive (less fatigue on driver) + etc...


I have a few questions about this though, as I currently am looking at setting up my suspension on my 1988 Honda Civic for track:

So are you saying that we should be running as big sway bars as we can get, and back off on the hard spring rates?

Are the whiteline swaybars developed for use on the street, with a bit of track work, so there have been some sacrifices in its strength. Or have they been developed for track use and if people decide to use it on street, its up to them? Or does it not matter?

I have heard that using too big a sway bar can rip your mounts, is there any way to find out whats too big?

How can we find out what suspension setup is right? Is it just a matter of trial and error, and throwing away money? Or is there something we can use as a guide or a formula or something that might help us out?

[SPEEDCORE]

Well from a AE86 point of view..... the whiteline kit which was close to 2.5k was ... how should I put it...... not inspiring at all!

It turned a mates AE86 into a understeering dog that had very little responsiveness on the track. I was well dissapointed at the results and the fact that my friend payed that amount of money for.

As for your question with reguard to spring rates and swaybars and their thickness, I am very opposed to going to thicker swaybars without an increase in spring rates. When you really look at it, the swaybar is a just a spring also.... albiet one that ties directly to the chassis/underframe of a car.

One of the big reasons I see the underframe getting ripped out or bent on civics is due to massive increases in swaybar size with non-corresponding increase in spring rates. This in turn is making the swaybar take on more of a roll and has an increase in load it takes that is not in proportion to the springs. Of course this can be off set buy "beefing" up the area with plates such as the (from memory the BEAKS "sp?" kit that is quite popular in the states in their various Honda race catagories).

Trev..... this car is going to be a track only car.... whiteline products in my view are good..... for road use with possibly very light track work. "If" the AE86 Works kit is anything to go by, its not appropriate for moderate track use.

[bennjamin]

Trev..... this car is going to be a track only car.... whiteline products in my view are good..... for road use with possibly very light track work. "If" the AE86 Works kit is anything to go by, its not appropriate for moderate track use.


Whiteline afaik does do its majority work on TRACK only cars really ( and motokhanas/club events etc) and sends its goods around the entire world - so I doubt your experience with the AE86 kit was entirely relevant . But i can understand for spending 2.5k it might of become a shock - just adjust driving style to suit :)

anyway ! IMO a larger rear swaybar is a fantastic thing - i too own a lil EG 92-95 honda civic and can vouch . BUT it is very important , that ANY size larger than stock , that you install adequete reinforcement.
I ran a simple 18mm replacement swaybar from whiteline - and within a few months of light driving it ripped off one side of the subframe links ( the U joint).

A general rule applies tho - if you are upgrading the size , compensate for subframe wear and upgrade the reinforcement too :thumbsup:

[ekslut]

Yeah, this is what I was wondering. If Whiteline design the swaybar combos to still give understeer like a stock car does, so the average driver can easily handle the car when pushed too far.

Thanks for the beaks info, but I checked the site and no love for the ef's :thumbdwn: Although I am thinking I might jst try a EG kit and see if that fits. Is there anyone else that makes these reinforcement kits?

I know what you are saying about upgrading the rear sway bar Ben and how much it improves the handling. But I am guessing this is with stock front sway bar. It feels a lot better because it helps eliminate the major understeer tendancy honda puts into its cars. But then when you also upgrade the front sway bar, this in theory will bring back more of the understeer.

So do whitleline develop the kit for understeer, and if so how much? If we want to eliminate some of that understeer (not all of it, coz its better to under than to over) how much thicker do we need to go?

Because for my car they offer a 16mm rear sway bar, but if mine came std with a rear sway bar then I would be able to get a 18mm. By the sounds of it 18mm would be the best, but another company also offer 22mm. Which one should I get?

Also these kits are developed I am guessing on a std ED civic. Mine is not standard, it has a heavier engine which would give it more understeer, there for do I need to go bigger than the 16mm or 18mm sway bar as offered by whiteline?

[wynode]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

[ekslut]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

Sorry, you have lost me a bit. I can't see where oversteer is mentioned. All I see is understeer!

[BlitZ]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

With a 22mm sway bar i can definitly induce oversteer. (lift off oversteer)- we arent talking about drifting here.....
And i seriously a none believer that u should reduce spring stiffness when u upgrade your sway bar.. especially when your car is lowered and a honda with weak subframe...

I reckon the sway bar is the best bang...... i wouldnt ever trying installing a large sway bar without going the hardest possible springs unless i have a R

[wynode]

ekslut.....just ignore what I said about oversteer. It wasn't related to you......but comments I have seen from some others about 'oversteer' after getting a rear swaybar.


With a 22mm sway bar i can definitly induce oversteer. (lift off oversteer)

Oversteer and lift off oversteer are two different things. I believe we are talking about oversteer only as opposed to backing off the throttle?

[joyride]

quickie: do hondas need roll centre adjusters?

[BlitZ]

oversteer is over steer....
what happens when u lift off the throttle mid corner? u get over steer...

Most oversteer is throttle induced.. even in rear wheel drive

[wynode]

Sorry i don't agree. Lifting off the throttle is altering the balance of the car via a transfer of weight off the rear wheels.......hence INDUCING oversteer as the rear loses traction.

This is different to powering through a corner under WOT and the sensation of the car turning into the corner much sharper than where the steering wheel is pointing.

[BlitZ]

Sorry i don't agree. Lifting off the throttle is altering the balance of the car via a transfer of weight off the rear wheels.......hence INDUCING oversteer as the rear loses traction.

This is different to powering through a corner under WOT and the sensation of the car turning into the corner much sharper than where the steering wheel is pointing.

how do u get oversteer in rwd? you induce it with the throttle control...
how do u get oversteer in fwd? you induce it with the throttle control...

what happend if you plow into a conrner without using throttle in both fwd and rwd? you understeer/neutral regardless of car...

what dont u agree with?

[BlitZ]

Sorry i don't agree. Lifting off the throttle is altering the balance of the car via a transfer of weight off the rear wheels.......hence INDUCING oversteer as the rear loses traction.


but isnt oversteer the loss of traction in the rear wheels?

[bennjamin]

but isnt oversteer the loss of traction in the rear wheels?


IMO no - since "understeer" is not necessarily "loss of traction" -

IMO both understeer and oversteer can be defined as the tendency for either the rear axle or front axle to loose balance with the opposite end and be guided by inertia to the widest point of a corner.

This could be via throttle control , loss of tracion , differential bias , crappy driving , excess speed or whatever...

[BlitZ]

IMO no - since "understeer" is not necessarily "loss of traction" -

IMO both understeer and oversteer can be defined as the tendency for either the rear axle or front axle to loose balance with the opposite end and be guided by inertia to the widest point of a corner.

This could be via throttle control , loss of tracion , differential bias , crappy driving , excess speed or whatever...

yesh it is... its the physical car moving .. not somehitng u feel in the seat of your pants...

you might feel its gonna oversteer in the heat of the moment.. but your car has yet to oversteer..and corrections dont even need to be made.

you cant get the feeling from the dictionary

what happens when your car looses balance? it tippie toes and regains balance?

[BlitZ]

IMO no - since "understeer" is not necessarily "loss of traction" -

IMO both understeer and oversteer can be defined as the tendency for either the rear axle or front axle to loose balance with the opposite end and be guided by inertia to the widest point of a corner.

This could be via throttle control , loss of tracion , differential bias , crappy driving , excess speed or whatever...

and i think the dictionary meaning is about drifting.... \

[bennjamin]

how do u get oversteer in rwd? you induce it with the throttle control...
how do u get oversteer in fwd? you induce it with the throttle control...

Many things im sure have to be considered/applied for "understeer or oversteer" to occur. Speed , traction , weight bias , brake bias , power , differential types , ground surface etc etc.

You can come into the apex of a corner too fast or be braking etc and understeer wide. No "induced power" there.

You can lift off mid corner -weight is transfered to the front axle and the rear will sometimes break traction OR you apply the handbrake OR there is lack of sufficinent grip - all brining the rear into "oversteer".
No "induced power" there either.



yesh it is... its the physical car moving .. not somehitng u feel in the seat of your pants...
....
what happens when your car looses balance? it tippie toes and regains balance?

IMO Oversteer and understeer are NOT just "loss of traction" - they are from differential bias or wheel alignment etc too.
The front or rear axle AFAIK does not have to be loosing traction to be in "oversteer" or "understeer".


Can someone who 100% knows what they are talking about reply here ?
Remember this is all "IMO" ....

Keep the discussion up tho !

[joyride]

what is oversteer and understeer (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2769)
i dont think it explains much but it gives the readers an idea of the concept.

[ekslut]

oversteer is over steer....
what happens when u lift off the throttle mid corner? u get over steer...

Most oversteer is throttle induced.. even in rear wheel drive

I agree, yes it is a type of oversteer. But its not the same as what we are talking about here. We are talking about the natural reaction by the car when its been taken to the edge. Not when it has been induced by lifting off the accelerator, touching the brakes, or any other means.

And when you mentioned about being able to induce lift-off oversteer with a 22mm rear sway bar, the sway bar will make it easier. But I can induce lift-off oversteer on my car which has no rear sway bar.

Lift-off oversteer is caused by the shift of the car weight moving when you suddenly back off the accelerator at high speeds. This causes the car to unbalance and oversteer is usually the result.

Personally I think understeer is when there is loss of traction at the front wheels, which causes your front to continue straight and run off your line through the corner. Oversteer is when the rear looses traction and causes the back end to run off the line through the corner.

[VTEC16]

Oversteer and lift off oversteer are two different things.

IMO no - since "understeer" is not necessarily "loss of traction"
WOT oversteer and lift-off oversteer are to two different things. But they are both classified as oversteer and are a result of loss of traction of the rear wheels. Just like understeer is a result of loss of traction of the front wheels.

If you guys take a step back you will realise you are wrong and that u are arguing a frivolous point.

[BlitZ]

VTEC16 is right on the money

that is exactly what i am saying...
its a mod slug fest

I cant believe they arent agreeing with
"
And all oversteer is throttle induced......!!!!
QUOTE!!! throttle induced.....
lift off(FWD) or accelerate (RWD)!!!!!
"

[bennjamin]

VTEC16 is right on the money

that is exactly what i am saying...
its a mod slug fest

I cant believe they arent agreeing with
"
And all oversteer is throttle induced......!!!!
QUOTE!!! throttle induced.....
lift off(FWD) or accelerate (RWD)!!!!!
"


remember you stated from under+oversteer must be from/via a loss of traction . And i said understeer/ovesteer IS NOT just throttle induced.

I want this discussion to keep going as it all is our opinons :thumbsup:

[wynode]

WOT oversteer and lift-off oversteer are to two different things. But they are both classified as oversteer and are a result of loss of traction of the rear wheels. Just like understeer is a result of loss of traction of the front wheels.

If you guys take a step back you will realise you are wrong and that u are arguing a frivolous point.

That's what i'm trying to say........they are both cases of over oversteer however in one case it is induced as you back off the throttle and in the other case it is a direct inheritance of the cars suspension setup.

I'm not saying you're wrong Blitz.....i'm just saying one is induced intentionally by backing off the throttle.

[wynode]

that is exactly what i am saying...
its a mod slug fest


And why is that?

[crx_16x]

Guys here is the best definition of understeer and oversteer I have found, it came from http://www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/CarTech/tech_index.htm
There is a lot of great reading on this site.



Neutral / Understeer / Oversteer

We often hear these 3 terms in car magazines. I think few people would argue if I say they are the most important elements in the study of handling.

What is understeer ? Basically, if you turn the steering wheel and find the car steers less than you expect, the car is understeering. This is not because your subjective judgement goes wrong, in fact any car must have some degree of non-neutral steering due to the weight distribution, suspension design, tyre used, lateral acceleration and road conditions. Further more, a car could understeer in this corner and then oversteer in that corner. The whole picture is very complicated, so I'll spend more paragraphs to discuss this topic. What do we need ?

It seems that neutral steer must be more desirable than understeer and oversteer, but in fact it is not.

In fact, when running on straight line, we want a little bit understeer to make the car stable. When the car is subjected to side force, probably due to cross wind or the road's irregularities, understeer could resist the force and avoid the car to be steered.

When the car is entering a corner, we also need a light understeer to provide the stability while the driver is easing off the brakes and building up cornering force. In mid corner, we need neutral steer. In the exit phase, a slight oversteer will be welcomed as it helps tightening the path. However, the degree of oversteer must be progressive and easily controllable by applying and easing throttle. We call this "Power Oversteer". Without power oversteer, we have to ease the throttle (thus loss time) or the car will run out of the corner.

However, I must make clear that what I say "slight understeer / oversteer" is usually deemed to be "near neutral steer" by most car magazines. This is because in reality there are too many cars running on severe understeer thus they used to them. In other words, if a car magazine said the Porsche 996 has mild understeer, it probably equals to "medium understeer" in our sense. Basic Concept : Slip Angle

Before going on our study, we must understand the concept of slip angle first. When a car enters a corner, all the tyres are turned with respect to the ground. Due to the elasticity of the pneumatic tyre, the tread in the contact patch will resist the turning action because there is the friction generated between the rubber and the road surface. As a result, the treads on the contact patch will be distorted, whose direction always lags behind the direction of the wheel ( See figure in below ). We call the angular difference between the treads and the wheel's direction as Slip Angle.

http://www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/CarTech/slip_angle.jpg

Note : the car is turning left

In which direction the wheel will run ? It is the direction of the tread, not the wheel's direction. I am not saying the tread has any ability to force the wheel to travel in its direction. On the contrary, the tread is only a sign showing how an arbitrary point on the tyre surface travels. If the arbitrary point travels in that direction, so does the wheel which is the summation of thousands of those points.

Now you must think the existence of slip angle must reduce the car's steering angle thus leads to understeer. In fact, it is not so if everything else are perfect. Because both the front and rear tyres have more or less the same slip angles, they counter each other thus the resulting steering angle remains unaltered.

However, if the front and rear wheels have different slip angles, then we get understeer and oversteer :

Understeer : Front Slip Angle > Rear Slip Angle

Oversteer : Front Slip Angle < Rear Slip Angle Neutral steer : Front Slip Angle = Rear Slip Angle


http://www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/CarTech/neutral.jpg





Ekslut, does your civic have a rear sway bar standard?
The mounting points for the rear sway bars on ED CRX's are not on the rear subframe like EG's and DC's. They are located on the underside of the body itself.

Like this.

http://thezam.org/kam/images/suspension/rearshock1.jpg

[ekslut]

Ekslut, does your civic have a rear sway bar standard?
The mounting points for the rear sway bars on ED CRX's are not on the rear subframe like EG's and DC's. They are located on the underside of the body itself.




Nope, mine does not come with a standard rear sway bar. Mounted on the underside of the body you say? Think I will have to try to find some pics on this.

[crx_16x]

There are a few in this thread http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=247181

Just search the CRX/EF Civic forum on honda-tech for "rear sway bar" you will find heaps of threads.

[ekslut]

Just search the CRX/EF Civic forum on honda-tech for "rear sway bar" you will find heaps of threads.

Already done that :thumbsup: Can't find anything clear though. Might just go check out a friends car on the weekend. Thanks though.

[chan]

a bigger anti-sway bar in the rear allows ur fwd to have faster enter corner speed.

[aozora]

Back on topic... in theory having hard spring rates and hard swaybars just don't go together. Hard swaybars complement soft spring rates and Hard spring rates complement soft swaybars (stock). There's NO point in having both, it's one or the other... a balance really.

With soft spring rates, especially on street, you're absorbing the shitty roads the lovely government has laid out for us (provided you have matching dampers with bound and rebound appropriately matched to the springs... but that goes for anything so we'll ignore them for now :) ). But what about the roll with soft springs? That's what swaybars are for... the only thing it doesn't cover is stability under braking and your nose will dive more then had you put harder springs in...
With hard spring rates... go over a bump on street, the chassis will absorb some of the bump because the spring rate is too hard which results in a uncomfortable ride... not only that but traction isn't maintained as well. Sure there's less roll but isn't the point of good suspension to maintain as much traction as possible in most situations (generally... this could bring up another arguement but I don't want to touch that now... :p)... so why make springs do two jobs? Hard swaybars aswell? What does it do then? Nothing really :p

[barefootbonzai]

Yeah dam i just read through the whole previous post and very confused.

I userstand that

Soft Springs + Bigger Sway > Hard Springs + Small Sway

But what about:

Hard Springs + Bigger Sway Vs Soft Springs + Bigger Sway??????

I fail to see how harder spring rates could make your track times worst. Care to verifly someone????