Frankenstein, stroked b16a or JDM ITR b18c?

[Paul1985]

Hey guys, i keep tossing up which b-series path i wanna take on an EG Hatch.. just after some opinions and/info on the three, ive searched heaps but cant work out which would be the best for my money and which would pump out the most performace.. i like torque and it is for street only, so some reliablility would be good also.. The options im tossing up between are:

1. JDM b16a w/ b20 conversion
2. JDM b16a stroked out to a 1.8lt
3. b18c Type-R

What do u guys reckon would be the best per dollar of the three?

[tinkerbell]

best dollar per hp = B20VTEC

best grin factor = B20VTEC

most logical thing to get most power = B20VTEC

easiest thing to stuff up if you have no idea = B20VTEC

[2MPRSS]

get a jdm b18c type R engine, hardto find though and cost alot

[Paul1985]

what do u reckon if a professional did the B20VTEC swap, someone with experience and they strengthened it?

im starting to like this idea :)

i like the grin factor

[tinkerbell]

i don't think "hard to find and cost alot" matches the "best per dollar" requirement :(

[tinkerbell]

what do u reckon if a professional did the B20VTEC swap, someone with experience and they strengthened it?

im starting to like this idea :)

i like the grin factor

have you already had this discussion with me over PM? many people have, cant remember them all...

BTW - a 'professional' will rip you off, and strenghtening of the block can be as simple as fitting new ARP rod bolts...

[Paul1985]

i think the cheapest would be to find an EG6, and use option 1 or 2..

[tinkerbell]

stroked b16a is expensive too...

[Paul1985]

i havent had this discussion with u tinkerbell :)
thanks for the info though, so im guessing your experienced with this?
If so, which of the 3 options would u recommend if money wasnt a hassle?

[tinkerbell]

money no option = Dart block and head

http://www.dartheads.com/imagelib/Honda_Head_T.jpg
http://www.dartheads.com/imagelib/Honda_Block_T.jpg


but of the 3 options, B20VTEC is what i would go everytime...

my old B20VTEC running stock internals and only Type R bolt-ons with VAFC and it put ot 122kW and ran 13.7 at WSID in my old LS integra...

i would like to see another B-series engine with Type R bolt-ons make that much power...

[Paul1985]

im likiing this idea but am worried about the reliability side of things...

[tinkerbell]

weakness:

1. thin cylinder walls due to larger bore;
2. weak rods/rod bolts due to low rpm design;
3. piston to valve clearance due to small valves in B20B.

so, using stock internals, you will not be generating sufficent cylinder pressures to risk damaging the (weaker) cylinder liners,

nor is the compression ratio high enough (~9.5:1) to really worry about detonation damaging the (weaker) sleeves,

piston to valve clearance can be solved with a hand widening of the piston reliefs with dremel or similar,

rod bolts replaced by ARP parts is best, solving the weak bolt delima,

i have revved my B20VTEC to 9200rpm a couple of times, to 8500rpm many times, over 8000rpm daily, with no broken rods, so i think the stock rods are ok, it is just the bolts that can break.

if you are in syd, pm me for a full cost breakdown...

[EGB16A]

I know this isn't in the list, and i'm told is abitch to fit, but have you considered a h22a?

[fusion_VTi]

i'd go with the B20vtec or possibly the h22a if ur after the torquee factor..

[ginganggooly]

but of the 3 options, B20VTEC is what i would go everytime...

my old B20VTEC running stock internals and only Type R bolt-ons with VAFC and it put ot 122kW and ran 13.7 at WSID in my old LS integra...

i would like to see another B-series engine with Type R bolt-ons make that much power...

b20's seem to be a mixed bag, i've seen a few people with cracked sleeves over on honda-tech, although that could possibly have something to do with tuning- there is heaps of debate about it.

as for the 122 at the wheels, i know there's a member of these forums that has 127kw (mt druitt kw's too) at the wheels with an smsp header, stock cat back and a hondata on a dc2r...
that said, your old b20 probably could have gone past the 130 mark with the right header something a little more sophisticated in the ecu department. you were using a vafc at the time right?

[tinkerbell]

tuned ECU can mean 15 - 25kW on a worked B20VTEC, i dunno, vafc did OK for what it is, better than none...

[tinkerbell]

& yeah - stock jdm header, stock ITR everything...

imagine with juns or toda's?

[Paul1985]

So it's possible to have long engine life with the b20vtec?? if tuned correctly and strengthened...

what if i put new conrods in? didnt u say they arent made for high rpm?

im not from syd tinkerbell, but if possible could u still PM me costs, as if i go ahead with this and find better places in syd do do it, id drive up..

btw, thanks for the help :)

[Paul1985]

I know this isn't in the list, and i'm told is abitch to fit, but have you considered a h22a?

this would be an expensive option, bitch to fit and i keep hearing bad things about it in an EG.. keep hearing it puts alot of weight on the front of the car in a bad way..

u need custom mounts and all sorts of things..

other than that a h22a would be unreal.. if i had a h22a in my civic id turbo it..

[TODA AU]

Value for money, do yourself a favour & stay away from the B20.
They are not a performance engine from the factory.
Don't pretend that a head swap in any way changes this.

[ALLMTR]

Wow my two favourite "internet myths" in one thread....

Fact 1: If you rev a 20 to more than 5000 rpm the sleeve will crack cause the sleeves are so thin they are almost seethrough....

Fact 2: H22 into a Civic requires hydraulic ram steering.....

:rolleyes:

[EfiOz]

We've used B20's quite a bit in the past with no sleeve cracking issues. Admittedly you can't go much past an 84mm bore with one.

I've also seen all the horror pics of broken sleeves. Every one of them looks like severe detonation from a guesstimate tune.

[Paul1985]

hmmm.. maybe id be better going a b18cR or stroked b16a then..

[Nuttz]

for simplicicty and more reliabability get a b18c !

[SHWCARCIVIC]

best dollar per hp = B20VTEC

best grin factor = B20VTEC

most logical thing to get most power = B20VTEC

easiest thing to stuff up if you have no idea = B20VTEC


Go the B20VTEC :thumbsup: :D

[Paul1985]

SHWCARCIVIC, under your details it says your car is a.. B16A/B20B DOHC VTEC TURBO.
If this is true i gotta couple of questions..

How long have u had it this way?
Had any major problems?
Did u strengthen it?

you'd think the turbo would be slowly killing ur engine...

[SHWCARCIVIC]

Paul1985, yes I've had the B20VTEC in my civic for about a month now the only problem I have is the finding someone to tune the EMS computer. The better tuned you are the longer it will last
Other than that its pretty straight forward, my engine has stock internals, ARP headstuds, copper head gasket, and a Golden Eagle VTEC conversion kit.
Check out this website for a step by step buildup in the How To section www.c-speedracing.com.
As for the the turbo setup its only running around 8psi just to be safe, and it has a greater chance the sleeves will crack being that its turbocharged.
My B20VTEC is only temporary as I thought it would be fun to have a B20Vtec in my civic as theres not to many going around, and also because the previous engine dropped a valve, Im having my re-sleeved B18C rebuilt with new rods and pistons.

[BiGANG]

back to the jap spec B18C-R option, why does it need to be jap spec. The power difference is minimal as compared to a AUS spec type R motor, I would go the type r motor just because there is less to worry about and a few bolt ons I/H/E and ecu would make enough power to make the car enjoyable IMO. Plus itll be reliable because everything will be original.

[genesis]

what about a built b16a head on b18cR block?

[tinkerbell]

Value for money, do yourself a favour & stay away from the B20.
They are not a performance engine from the factory.
Don't pretend that a head swap in any way changes this.

ahhrrghh!! oh noes!!!

i am living in 'pretend' world where i could only run 13 second 1/4 miles....

it's a shame ALLMTR could *only* run 12 second passes with his 'non-factory-performance' B20 engine...

[ProECU]

what about a built b16a head on b18cR block?
Why not just build the B18C head? its effectively the same head as the B16

[newbie]

wat about k20a? as another option. (yeh im newbie when it comes to engine tech's... im still learning)

wats the price difference involved between k20a & b20vtec.? im thinkin that the k20a would be more reliable.?

[tinkerbell]

k20 vs b20 = 1000% price difference.

[Paul1985]

k20 would be nice but well out of the price range...
im thinking either b16 and stroke it when i get the money, or save a little longer and get the b18cR.. pretty similar in performance the two yeah?

Myself, ive never driven either a b16a or b18c and ive seen the b16a in action and loved it, so i just think it would be unreal to have a b18c with the more torque, but stroking the b16a will give similar results.. if i get a car w/ b16a already in it i'll take it, but if i find a really cheap EG, ill get it and with my left over money try source a b18cR...

id like to try frankenstien but i dont think its worth it from my research.. IMO
i might change my mind though down the track, lol

another question... can u stroke the b18cr to a 2.0lt?? i havent seen anything to do with this, never heard of a stroker kit to do it or anything.. any info would be great

cheers :thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

i have been dying to ask how you intend to 'stroke' the B16A?

[tinkerbell]

oh - B16A is utter shit compared to B18CR...

[Paul1985]

id probably take it to toda and use the toda kit (syd), or even take it somewhere similar in melb, if i get some feedback on some good places because melb would be much easier..

so b18cr would still be the better option even after the b16a is stroked in your opinion??

[tinkerbell]

id probably take it to toda and use the toda kit (syd), or even take it somewhere similar in melb, if i get some feedback on some good places because melb would be much easier..

so b18cr would still be the better option even after the b16a is stroked in your opinion??

if you stop changing the criteria of comparison...

...and stick with price, a Toda stroked B16A would probably be more expensive than a B18CR...

and offer less performance.

[Macros]

Stroker kits cost a lot.

I'd got for the b18c.

A b20vtec is still a low compression low reving engine. Good torque though.

[ALLMTR]

A b20vtec is still a low compression low reving engine.

Tinkers, why do we bother....................

[Paul1985]

1985 Civic + B20vtec = 12.8 @ 107mph - SOLD <-- u have any probs with yours??
i read in the other post that u had it strengthened and it was all done by dyno dave? i think

[raff]

go with the B18CR

good power stock, dont have to worry about stroking or strengthening it and changing heads......its fine on the DC2R's it will be more than sufficient on a CIVIC!!

[Paul1985]

true.. im also reading that stroker kits are a big waste of money on HT.. they reckon just stick with the b18c also, the ls/vtec seems very common there also..
b18c prob my best option ive decided..

[ALLMTR]

1985 Civic + B20vtec = 12.8 @ 107mph - SOLD <-- u have any probs with yours??
i read in the other post that u had it strengthened and it was all done by dyno dave? i think

You read wrong...maybe

I build my own motors. I machine my own motors (well with a little help). The motor was only strengthened by ARP rod bolts. I even built the headers...

BUT Dyno Dave did tune it, which is the best strengthening you can do......

[tinkerbell]

Tinkers, why do we bother....................

he's just trolling mate...

for ease of options, b18c is best option, but b20vtec will make more power and more fun... but they make people nervous...

it is a shame i threw a rod end at the track on tuesday, going to have to replace my bottom end with a B20B8 block i think...

[raff]

he wants it as a daily driven reliable car. for his purpose the b18c is sufficient...

im not saying the B20B bottom end isnt but for his case the b18c will be nice n easy (i.e no need to strengthen etc)

[ginganggooly]

*giggle*

[Paul1985]

*giggle*
?????

This has actually been a really helpful thread.. thanks guys for clearing up some of my questions with this thread.. especially tinkerbell :)

this would be a good one to add onto that thread with links to helpful threads... b20vtec vs b18c vs b16a stroked

[Macros]

he's just trolling mate...

no I'm not mate.

crvtec compression = 9.2
stock b20b ecu redline = 6200

[ALLMTR]

Seemed to be enough compression for me to run a 12 second quarter...

And the engine isn't low revving, the computer is limited low. If you go to the trouble of B20vtec, you'd have to be an idiot to use the b20b computer...

[tinkerbell]

my 9.5:1 compression ratio B20VTEC got me to a 13.7 second pass...

with an 8500rpm fuel-cut...

hmmm, maybe these guys with 11:1 CR could be wondering how?

"there is no replacement for displacement..."

[ginganggooly]

did you have a b20b or b20z block?

i've read that the b20z actually had slightly higher comp, somewhere around 10.2:1 or something. i read it on the net, so it has to be true ;)

[Paul1985]

sorry tinkerbell if its a dumb question but can u explain to me....
"there is no replacement for displacement..."

[ALLMTR]

Z pistons were slightly up on B pistons. I "think" (remember I am getting old) it was up from 9.2 to 9.5....

Paul "bigger is better"........ only men with small d1cks think otherwise :)

[tinkerbell]

b20b4 + b16a head = 9.0:1
b20b4 + b18c2 head = 9.2:1
b20b8 + b16a head = 9.9:1
b20b8 + b18c2 head = 10.1:1

--

Paul - "displacement" is the amount of internal space an engine has for combustion.

you work it out by a calculation involving bore and stroke...

more bore or more stroke (or more both) = more displacement, so the engine can move more air through it for each given RPM (and hence make more power)

ie "there is no replacement for displacement" (or forced induction)

[Paul1985]

i see now.. cheers :)
btw.. thanks for the CR's

[sifoo]

You could try a b16 hybrid:

- B17A crank
- 85mm bore
- 9,000rpm redline
- Eagle rods
-ARP head studs and rod bolts
- Wiseco 85mm pistons

approx 1.9litre capacity (nearly 2.0litre) with a much better R/S ratio than the B20 AND the B18C.

The stock b16a has a near perfect R/S ratio - its one of the most well designed short stroke Honda engines ever made

You would have far fewer concerns with reliability and also have a very revvable car.

Torque and topend that is reliable - what more could you want? :thumbsup:

But this would cost a pretty penny - but I would rather save up and do it right the first time.

[tinkerbell]

let me know when you find a B17A crank, LOL!

if you find one for sale in australia, i will root a goat...

[ginganggooly]

let me know when you find a B17A crank, LOL!

if you find one for sale in australia, i will root a goat...

hehe, i feel like importing one all of a sudden.

*the proof is in the pudding, two of the fastest na hondas on this forum were both running b20 vtecs, reliably. they aren't as bad as people would have you think.

[tinkerbell]

ginganggooly,

i am buildign a new B20VTEC as we speak... (due to spun rod bearing in B18C2)

going to be making a website outlining how to do it, what parts are required and how to ensure reliability...

there is way too much fear about these engines, basically due to mis-information being spread by ill-informed interweb mechanics...

[tinkerbell]

You could try a b16 hybrid:

- B17A crank
- 85mm bore
- 9,000rpm redline
- Eagle rods
-ARP head studs and rod bolts
- Wiseco 85mm pistons

approx 1.9litre capacity (nearly 2.0litre) with a much better R/S ratio than the B20 AND the B18C.

The stock b16a has a near perfect R/S ratio - its one of the most well designed short stroke Honda engines ever made

You would have far fewer concerns with reliability and also have a very revvable car.

Torque and topend that is reliable - what more could you want? :thumbsup:

But this would cost a pretty penny - but I would rather save up and do it right the first time.

oh - and is this with a stock B20B block? or sleeved B18 block?

[ginganggooly]

ginganggooly,

i am buildign a new B20VTEC as we speak... (due to spun rod bearing in B18C2)

going to be making a website outlining how to do it, what parts are required and how to ensure reliability...

there is way too much fear about these engines, basically due to mis-information being spread by ill-informed interweb mechanics...

ah, so there will be two b20 vtec vti-r's here soon. what have you got going into yours?

[tinkerbell]

just Type R bits (valvetrain, IM, TB, 4-1 headers) some toda bits (FW & CGs) and just VAFC & FPR...

it is an 'accidental build' as i was definitly not planning it, nor saving for it!

still, it will make it more fun on the track with 50% more power :D

[tinkerbell]

oh - it is a stock B20B8 'PHK' bottom end with ARP fasteners...

[ginganggooly]

my one has been in the pipeline for quite some time now, the comparison will be very interesting. i'd love to see if the extras have been worth it :)

[tinkerbell]

what CR are you running?

i am milling head 20 thou, so should be about 10.5:1

you using stock internals? mostly head and intake 'extras'?

[ginganggooly]

the crank is stock, i think thats the only stock part of the motor... cr should be around 13.x:1. we're using a p72 head though, so it's quite different to your setup.

[tinkerbell]

ahhhh, interesting, sounds like an animal!!!

[ginganggooly]

ahhhh, interesting, sounds like an animal!!!

does, doesn't it :D

problem is- sounding like an animal on paper and going like one in the real word is completely different. i live in hope...

[wynode]

This two b20 track warriors should hopefully prove a few myths true/false :)

[Perry]

i seen 1 of the b20b honda on the track once blk 1 men it fly's

[justrunit]

let me know when you find a B17A crank, LOL!

if you find one for sale in australia, i will root a goat...

LOL
Can I watch?!
HAHAHAHHAA

[NightKids]

If anyone has any doubts about tinkerbell or his knowledge, then just look at the two green square boxes his got under his details. That's a sign of a man knowing his stuff!!

[Dylanamus]

Did you mention which of the 4 possible engines your EG has? I imagine you have the D15B? I guess you don't have the b16a1, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it as a transplant option.

I'd immediately rule the b16a out as you can get a b18c half cut for the same price and save 4-5k from the stroke/bore you'd do to achieve the same displacement. If you already have a b16a1, I wouldn't worry about an engine transplant nor stroking it. At the cost of 200cc, you've got a lot of headroom for high rpm, so I'd spend that 5k doing some crazy headwork so you CAN rev it hard. Again, if you don't have the b16, just go a stock b18cR and it'd fulfill all your requirements methinks.

[ProECU]

let me know when you find a B17A crank, LOL!

if you find one for sale in australia, i will root a goat...

Can I hold you to this? I rekon you'd enjoy it.

[Paul1985]

Did you mention which of the 4 possible engines your EG has? I imagine you have the D15B? I guess you don't have the b16a1, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it as a transplant option.

I'd immediately rule the b16a out as you can get a b18c half cut for the same price and save 4-5k from the stroke/bore you'd do to achieve the same displacement. If you already have a b16a1, I wouldn't worry about an engine transplant nor stroking it. At the cost of 200cc, you've got a lot of headroom for high rpm, so I'd spend that 5k doing some crazy headwork so you CAN rev it hard. Again, if you don't have the b16, just go a stock b18cR and it'd fulfill all your requirements methinks.
Wow, this thread is old!
After alot of research ive decided to go a completely different route.

I think this is a great and very debatable topic though :D

[Dxs]

going to be making a website outlining how to do it, what parts are required and how to ensure reliability...


i guess this never happened?

[tinkerbell]

nup, I apologise :(

if you wanna know - you have to ask me... or work it out for yourself and then ask me about which bits you find troublesome...

i prefer the second way, as it is quicker and less painful...

[Dxs]

Can you just do a write up or something?
DIY section ;)

[tinkerbell]

why would my write up be better than the ones that already exist?

as advised:
or work it out for yourself and then ask me about which bits you find troublesome

so start here - parts list:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/lsvtec/parts.php

basic "frankenstein" proceedure:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/lsvtec/lsvtec.php

advanced B20 aspects:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/b20vtec/b20vtec.php

a great hondatech write up:

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1676914

and maybe have a look here:

http://www.b20vtec.com/


if you still cant work out the parts required, the various problems involved and the level of care required to build a reliable engine, a website done by ME is not going to help you ...

[Dxs]

why would my write up be better than the ones that already exist?

Well you said you were going to create a website, and still say that you have information to give via pm. So i was just suggesting to get the information out there.
But now you say it is already out there and can be accessed from other sources.

It is always good to have multiple sources of information.. too much is better than too little.

:angel: