timing belt out a tooth!

[Paul1985]

hey guys, just curious if anyone has any experience with timing belts..
a few months back, mine broke and i had to tow my car to the mechanics (silly me took it too my local mechanic, i wont next time) At the time i didnt know what was involved with it, i thought it was a simple thing and i thought my mechanic would be more than capable of fitting a new one..

im currently doing a automotive mechanics course at TAFE and i took it in there for my teachers to have a look at because i could tell my timing was out (car pings sometimes, lack of performance, quiet obvious this was the prob as it only started happening once i had the belt replaced), we checked the timing and my teachers told me it's out a tooth...

now, i dont really wanna take it back to my mechanic to do coz i dont think he would do a much better job than before.. is this a really difficult thing to do..

what i really need to know is it possible to make this a D.I.Y job, how complicated is it too do? because im contemplating doing it myself if its not extremely difficult..

please help guys, any comments/advice or anything will be a huge help

cheers :thumbsup:

[DLO01]

To be honest, I am not exactly sure about honda motors, but I rember with my old Celica there were timing marks on the cam gears. So when the motor is at TDC (top dead centre) (aligning your crank pully to the timing mark) The marks on the cam gears should point up. That was with my old Celica so hopefully somone else and comfirm with you car.

But the first thing that comes to mind when you said that you timing belt snaped is are you sure you did not bend any valves?

[Paul1985]

setting up the timing is a little different and a little harder than some older cars due to electronics.. we did end up working it out though at school, and the distributer cant move any further and its supposed to be in the middle (its right against the edge of something and cant move anymore) and the timings still off..

im pretty sure the valves are ok, ive been driving it aroung for a couple of months on a daily basis as it is now.. well i hope so!!

i dont need to just set up my timing with a timing gun, i need to align the belt up properly, u would think a mechanic would do better than that, all u really gotta do is make sure all the dots are lined up together (on the belt n stuff).. we did this at school, but with extremely old shitty motors that were in pieces (old corolla engines i think.. 4A/4G motors or something like that, cant remember exactly), newer honda engines seem very complicated though.. the japs make fantastic engines though!

[FR33K]

hmmm ive snapped my timing belt as well before
and my mechanic put it on wrong.
trust me.. if your timing belt is out a tooth you will really know
u woulda taken the car back the same day u got it back.

but yeh.. maybe its something else ?

[e240]

please help guys, any comments/advice or anything will be a huge help
cheers :thumbsup:

Its a medium type job. You just need to understand what needs to come off in order to change the belts. Have a look at the engine and plan.

Before actually taking off the belt, after rotating the engine to the correct timing marks, ALWAYS count the number of teeth between the Pulleys. So for example, on my Ducati, when I change timing belts, its got 3 pulleys, I will get 3 set counts.

I'm not sure as yet what Honda prescribes to tension the belt (there may be a special tool) but from what I've ben told, always err on the loose side. Make sure the belt is tight enough not to jump teeth, but it must be loose enough not to snap the belt under tension.

[Paul1985]

yeah.. im sure there would be a specific tension for it all.. i dont have a workshop manual myself but i photocopy all the stuff i need from my TAFE's manuals..

anyone else able to give me any assistance?

its definately my timing.. pretty sure its the belt.. dont know what else it could possibly be.. and not being able to line up my timing is also an indicator..

[sesshoumaru]

are you sure the timing isn't out because your dizzy has been rotated??

[Paul1985]

we checked the timing with the timing light, timing was out of place, we moved the dizzy to get it the closest we could trying to align the timing marks, but it could not go any further.. it only has a small area for movement and we couldnt move it any more forward which we needed to do to get the timing right, the timing is still out.. the teacher told me that most likely it is a tooth out, and i had another friend (mechanically minded) who when i mentioned my prob said it'd be a tooth out.. although im not 100% sure on it.. i do think thats what it would be

i might try do the timing all over again and set the dizzy, just to double check

[ECU-MAN]

dont waist your tim eon the dizzy
sounds like your valve timming is a tooth or so out.
I have enought pics to do a DIY, but im not brave enough to make a DIY as I feel it would do more harm that good if peeps start trying to do there own belts. for a good mechanic the timming belt on a civic is easy. but I have seen non honda mechanics get it all wrong because they used the red timming mark on the pully as TDC when infact you just use the marking on the crank chaft timming belt pully.
also a tight timming belt doesnt snap timming belts, it snaps crank shafts so be carefull.

let me know if you want help on getting to the timming belt to fix this with your tafe lecturers.

[e240]

as I feel it would do more harm that good if peeps start trying to do there own belts. for a good mechanic the timming belt on a civic is easy. but I have seen non honda mechanics get it all wrong because they used the red timming mark on the pully as TDC when infact you just use the marking on the crank chaft timming belt pully.


Well, you've got to start somewhere. and that where reading and researching comes in. Planning reduces the potential for mistakes and builds confidence.

I changed the belts on my Duc every 5K km(Because the duc was only ever tracked, so it was a precaution - each duc has 2 timing belts), and have done 2 changes myself. Never used official factory tool ($800), just a back yard's mechanic method of a 5mm deflection. Happy to say never had a problem at all, and I put this down to me making sure I planned and researched everything before going into it.

[panda[cRx]]

[QUOTE=ECU-MAN]back yard's mechanic method

i think that is what ecuman was concerned about lol

[Paul1985]

i think u got it spot on ECU-MAN.. sound like u know what ur talking about, u mentioned u think its my valve timing (my belt would be causing this, right?), explain a bit more?? the red marks are a bitch to find.. someone had marked it with chalk (i think) and it took us a while to figure it out.. the thing i had most trouble with was finding the service check connector (the two-terminal one) that we had to bridge down near the ECU, because our manual said different colours to what were actually down there, it was difficult. im pretty sure i bridged the correct ones though, there were no others..

so do u think that the timing belt would be the problem?

[e240]

'][QUOTE=e240]

i think that is what ecuman was concerned about lol

LOL..not all back yard mechanics are bad ya...

Using this method, the bike's always rev'ing to 10K rpm and pulls over 200km/h several times a lap, and as yet, no problems.

The other alternative is keep sending it to the agent who'd charge $400 per belt change.

:-D

[ECU-MAN]

i think u got it spot on ECU-MAN.. sound like u know what ur talking about, u mentioned u think its my valve timing (my belt would be causing this, right?), explain a bit more?? the red marks are a bitch to find.. someone had marked it with chalk (i think) and it took us a while to figure it out.. the thing i had most trouble with was finding the service check connector (the two-terminal one) that we had to bridge down near the ECU, because our manual said different colours to what were actually down there, it was difficult. im pretty sure i bridged the correct ones though, there were no others..

so do u think that the timing belt would be the problem?

from what you say in your prevous posts, I recon it is your valve timming. on the harmonic balancer you will find marking like this

||| ............|
.^ .............^
Timming ....TDC
mark

the timming mark is usually RED TDC is white

set your crank to TDC. ( you can also use a screwdriver on the crown of the piston to find this ask your lecturer )

take off the roccer cover and the top timming belt cover ( that covers the camshaft pully.) 2x 10mm bolts

with #1 TDC ( #1 compression stroke #4 rocking )
your cam shaft pully should look like this diagram bellow

http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/pics/cam-pully.jpg


the side marking on the pully should line up with the flat surface of the head.
if it does not that conforms valve timming being incorect.

ill see if I got a photo of this

[wynode]

Here's a pic of a D16A8 at TDC

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/3tdc.jpg

[ECU-MAN]

thanks Wyn

[Paul1985]

thanks guys..
my car is SOHC non-vtec (d15b7 i think)
it should be the same sorta setup though.. i got some photocopied sheets form a workshop manual on timing marks.. ill check it out and let u know if my valve timings out...
i might wait till the w/end though gotta have dinner now and its getting dark

ill let u know how i go :)

muchly appreciated

[wynode]

I think i Have SOHC manual if you want me to post it up. Let me know.

[Paul1985]

that would be great wyn, if its not out of your way too much..
also, do u have some torque/tension settings??
that'd be great :thumbsup:

[wynode]

Here you go. Not sure what exactly you want torque settings for though ?

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/3SOHC_TDC.JPG

[Paul1985]

anyone got torque settings for the SOHC non-vtec rocker cover??

also.. im gonna goto school and get a bit of help on this but im just wondering. Instead of setting my engine to TDC then checking the markings, would i be able to align my camshaft pulley up as shown in the pic above, then check if my #4 tappets are rocking (that would mean #1 is @ compression i.e TDC)?? that would indicate that its at TDC wouldnt it? if they arent rocking then my valve timing is obviously wrong. i just think that would be an easier way of checking it, but im not sure if im right or if it can be done this way.. i may be way off the mark, let me know.. lol

its just i need to get this worked out soon, coz i think its getting worse :(

thanks

[Paul1985]

btw.. this is exactly the same as whats happening to me, good description..
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=964197
searched all over HT and couldnt find much..

they seem to think its either timing/timing belt/bent valves
i hope my valves arent bent, i think my car would be running much worse than it is if it was bent valves though..

i also read that this sound could be coming from the cat converter and u can hear it through the exhaust manifold, few things to check..

[ECU-MAN]

your sort of on the right track

but if you want to get it right you MUST put the crank on TDC by the markings on the pully or crank, you only use cyl 4 rocking to confirm cyl 1 is TDC.

than make sure your cam markings are spot on., no room for error.

good luck

[Paul1985]

if valve timing is out, does that mean all i gotta do is adjust my tappets??
coz thats easy, did it at school (not on my car though)

[ECU-MAN]

no you have to remove the belt from the cam pully and alighn the cam pully to its correct location then refit the belt.

[Paul1985]

ahh, stupid question.. its all becoming alot clearer now :thumbsup:
so when your engine is at TDC and..
1. the timing belt is aligned properly (not out a tooth, all the dots lined up) & it is not too tight or too loose
2. the timing isnt out (been checked with timing light)
3. and the cam pulley is lined up
the prob should be solved..

if i do all this and it still is not solved, then either i got problems from when the belt snapped, or i have to look elsewhere.. i.e. dizzy, cat converter etc

thanks for all the help ECU-MAN & Wynode, i really appreciate it.. sorry for all the Q's, just trying to get my head around it and trying to learn off it :)

i hope i can fix it myself.. good learning experience

[ECU-MAN]

no problems man, this is what the forum is for, to ask questions and learn.

you must set the ignition timming after you change the valve timming. dont just leave it.

if you think you have the valve timming right, and it still plays up, do a wet and dry compression test, to test is the valves are ok.

[garett]

the timing belt may have one to many teeth.. buy a new one and count the teeth.

[Paul1985]

good point garett, thanks for pointing it out.. i somehow have a feeling the belt that was put in my car is not the best/correct one for my car.. ill check that out when i have it apart and can access the belt..

it should say it in a manual, might have to check it out at school or invest in a manual for my car, it would be very handy right about now

[ECU-MAN]

if it had to many teeth, it would make the gear set non hunting, meaning eventually the valve timming will get that far out it would bend valves, or just not run at all, ( only would take seconds of engine running )

[Paul1985]

ahh k, well i can cross that one off the list, ive learnt heaps from this thread :D

[Paul1985]

hey guys, checked my valve timing today. When at TDC, the cam pulley was not lined up! my timing belt was out a tooth as suspected. The mechanic had lined up the belt according to the timing mark instead of the TDC mark. I moved the belt a tooth over, but its still out about half a tooth?!?! If i move it over another tooth it would be out half a tooth the other way! its strange, it is a honda belt they put in, wether its for my model civic i dont know.

Also, when i was doing my timing after i put it all back together, in the manual it says to bridge the 2-connector near the ECU in the kicker panel, but the book said to do it with diff coloured wires to what i actually have, hope i did it correctly, if someone can give us a hand with this it would be a huge help, i could find 2 connectors, one was a 3-connector the other a 2-connector, so i did the 2-connector. The timing was way off and the dizzy cant adjust anymore, it runs out of room before the timing marks can line up perfectly (the dizzy only has a little room for retarding/advancing)

After doing all this, i took my car for a bit of a test drive, it seems to have improved a fair bit and i hadnt heard any pinging. I went up a bit of a hill to put it under a bit of load and drove it fairly hard and under the pressure it started pinging again, was fine afterwards though when it was under less load.

So basically it has improved greatly, but not 100%, if anyone has any help for me on why my belt would be out half a tooth or any advice on how to correctly do my timing please help!!!!

cheers :thumbsup:

[wynode]

Did you make sure your car warmed up before checking the timing with a timing light?

[Paul1985]

hmm, only let it idle for say, about 3 mins, while i set up the light and undid the dizzy bolts.. that should be warmed up enough id think.. i really think this connector im supposed to bridge could be messing me up, either that or because the belt still not 100% perfect

[ECU-MAN]

you should let your engine warm till the thermo fans come on at least twice before adjusting the timming.

then short the short connector and set the timming.

I dont think you have your valve timming out half a tooth, its either out one way or to the other, the slack on the belt that can make it look out half a tooth.

[Paul1985]

i think it may be the slack then (i hope!)...
my teachers said it definately isnt out another tooth, it was hard to turn the engine to exactly TDC and it could be slightly off TDC when the marks look straight, like reading vernier calipers.. :P

maybe ive got it all under control now and need to let my car warm up and redo the timing.. i wonder if that could cause slight pinging..

ill try the timing again.. im pretty sure the dizzy should sit in the middle of its path, it is completely against one side and still out..

do u know what would happen if i was bridging the wrong short connector? could that be the problem..

btw ECU-MAN, i ended up doing it myself with a little help from the teachers (we're doing ignition systems at TAFE so they let me do it at school) thanks heaps for the help, it made things so much easier, and made it easier to explain certain things to the teachers, i appreciate it :thumbsup:

it wasnt very difficult at all.. i just wasnt too confident

[ECU-MAN]

if you ahve the dizzy all the way to one side and still cant get the mark right, I hate to say it you may still have the wrong valve timming. shoudlnt be like that. wheather you use the short connector or not, only thing is if you tried to set the timming with a cold engine.

[Paul1985]

problemo solved!!!

was still out a tooth, i took it apart and did the whole process again..
the belt was originally two teeth out, last time i moved it over 1 tooth and it still pinged and the dizzy had to be completely retarded, this time i moved it over 1 tooth again and and the dizzy is neither retarded or advanced, sits perfectly..

bloody dodgy mechanic originally installed my belt 2 teeth out, not good!!
im glad i was able to fix it though, i learnt alot off doing it also :thumbsup:

[ECU-MAN]

thats good to hear.
Im glad you where able to diagnose and fix it, great work

[wynode]

thats good to hear.
I glad you where able to diagnose and fix it, great work
Ditto!

[Paul1985]

thanks guys :)

[wynode]

problemo solved!!!

was still out a tooth, i took it apart and did the whole process again..
the belt was originally two teeth out, last time i moved it over 1 tooth and it still pinged and the dizzy had to be completely retarded, this time i moved it over 1 tooth again and and the dizzy is neither retarded or advanced, sits perfectly..

bloody dodgy mechanic originally installed my belt 2 teeth out, not good!!
im glad i was able to fix it though, i learnt alot off doing it also :thumbsup:

I'm diging out this thread (because its a good one!).

Just wanted to ask you Paul, so when you said the belt was out 2 teeth......was this on the cam pulley that you adjusted it? Did you just slide the belt off and slide it back on the correct way?

[ECU-MAN]

thats how I do it wyn, just back of the tentioner, pull it off the cam pully and move the cam pully and put the belt on corectly. then make sure you have correct belt tention and timming after about 3 compleate crank revolutions.

[Paul1985]

ECU-MAN has it spot on.. once u loosen that tensioner and u turn the engine over a little it comes loose and u can twist the belt over a tooth..

See this pic below.. where the two arrows are pointing too.. obviously when mine was at TDC, the marks werent lined up. The belt couldnt seem to line up absolutely perfect even after we had moved it over a tooth. For some reason it looked as though it was half a tooth out (whether possible or not i dont know).. if we moved it over another tooth it seemed to be out half a tooth the other side of this mark?!?

So what happened was we moved it over one tooth, hoping it would fix the problem.. My car still pinged and i still had the dizzy completely retarded(or advanced?! i get the 2 mixed up.. lol) we couldnt set it up perfect therefor we realised it still had a problem. We pulled it back down and moved it over another tooth (it appeared to be half a tooth out again, but on the other side) what i mean by this is.. with the pic below, although my car was at TDC and the belt was now perfect.. where the arrows point below, they still didnt line up perfect.

I think its most likely because of human error, we must not have had the engine at that exact perfect spot on TDC if u know what i mean.. it was at that rocking stage.. the mark that the pulley should be lined up to could not be in the perfect spot also, im not sure if this is a common problem.. who knows, we eventually got it fixed though :)

I hope all that im saying is correct and makes some sort of sense! Im not the greatest at explaining things

Also, be careful of this if anyone is going through a similar process!! it was such a pain having to go through the process twice, lol

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/3SOHC_TDC.JPG

[wynode]

How do you guys check the tension?

[ECU-MAN]

the push test,
on the left side ( not the water pump and tentioner side ) of the belt

you want about 5 to 10mm deflection

[Paul1985]

thats right, i forgot about that.. lol
on the straight side of the belt.. my teacher mentioned this, he said if u do it too tight it'll snap again, i cant remember what he said would happen if its too loose..

u just sort of wobble it with your finger to check the flex in the belt, mine was a bit loose and the teacher wasnt happy so he tightened it. He said to make sure its got about 1cm flex just as ECU-MAN said.

[Samo]

thats how I do it wyn, just back of the tentioner, pull it off the cam pully and move the cam pully and put the belt on corectly. then make sure you have correct belt tention and timming after about 3 compleate crank revolutions.


to correct this ..
once u have the timing belt on and tensioned.
spin the motor from the crank twice, and if all the marking on the cam gears and crank gear lines up the same .. its all good

spin it 2 revolotions 'cos the cam gears are 2 times the size of the crank gear . in which 1 turn from the crank only turns the cam gears 180 degrees. :thumbsup:

[ECU-MAN]

turn the crank 4 times then :)

I like to do it more than 2

[Paul1985]

This is a quick overview of the steps i went through in completing the task (i think i got it all, i did it a fairly long time ago though):

-loosen the front left hand side wheel nuts
-jack up the front of the car and place it on jack stands
-remove front left hand side wheel
-undo the screws on the black cover thing in the wheel arc and slide it out of the way (this allows you to access the area you need to turn the engine over)
-remove the rocker cover
-remove the timing belt cover
-place a jack under the sump
-remove the engine mount (it was in the way of the tensioner & made everything easier to access.. we were also able to jack the engine up slightly) if theres a resovoire giving you hassles when trying to remove the engine mount.. it can easily be lifted out of the way

Now its much easier and possible to see all the markings, set the engine at TDC, access the timing belt, access the tensioner, and adjust the belt over a tooth (or 2)

It is an easy process and i dont think it would be extremely time consuming. It only took me a while as it was the first time i have ever done such a thing.

It would be different if you were replacing a timing belt though. You would need to be able to remove the timing belt from the bottom as well as the top (we only needed access to the top)..