B20b vs K20a

[pgclee]

Hey guys, just wondering do you all have any idea how fast a B20b (done up) can be? comparing to a K20a (Done up), which one is better? Hehehe...lets say both N/A and in an EG (Drag car or semi stripped) , striped seat, W/o Stereo, without spare tyre, CF bonnet, both running Slicks....Plus, Both W/o Quad TB..

If a Fully Stripped EG, whois faster?
If a Semi Stripped EG, whois faster?

Hmmm.....

*(done up) = Forged Piston, Cons, done up Crank, Port polish, cams, retainers, rocker, port and polish, Bigger TB Etc..Internally...

I'm just curious since K20a is so hot nowadays...:)

One more thing, How quick the Quartermile do you assume these both can do?

[panda[cRx]]

i've seen a k20a crx vs a b20b EG and the k20a raped it.

i think the k20a has way more potential too as in the next few years more and more performance parts should come out for it(if the b series are anything to judge by)

[pgclee]

To panda:

oh izit? i've also seen an B20b EG rape an Evo with close to 500hp...so...what do you think?
Haha...lets just keep it Eg with Eg....

[panda[cRx]]

bwhahahahahha what a load of shit.
with power numbers like that it must come down to a shitty driver in the evo

[wynode]

You HAVE to compare power output of the two engines and disregards the chasis the car is in to get an accurate comparison so as to leave 'all other factors unchanged"

[panda[cRx]]

well i know the b20b wasnt reaching 500hp:rolleyes:

seriously pglee u saying a b20b civic beat a 500hp 4wd evo?:wave:

[pgclee]

hmm...from what i see...the B20b done a 11.32sec...hmm...why can't it beat the evo with 500hp? u think i'm joking?...haha...i'm serious dude...

[tinkerbell]

done up K20 = 2 times the cost of a done up B20

or is money no option?

[EG5]

just look at the world all motor fwd record.

its a k series

runner up?

k series too

[EG5]

done up K20 = 2 times the cost of a done up B20

or is money no option?

done up k series hitting 300whp.. b still too far away )assuming same XXX amount spent on both motor)

[panda[cRx]]

just look at the world all motor fwd record.

its a k series

runner up?

k series too

know what the times are?

but yeah k20a > b20b

also from what i've read b20b's dont live too long with the high rpms:o

[EG5]

b series , classic = pass

k series = future, present.


like it or not, thats the fact.

[tinkerbell]

done up k series hitting 300whp.. b still too far away )assuming same XXX amount spent on both motor)

nah, once you start talking about those sort of numbers,

there is a point where K will be cheaper than B to achieve those sorts of numbers,

ie aftermarket forged crank would be required for the B, plus more "development" time on the head and inlet tract...

where as the K copuld use stock crank and more "untouched" oem components, whereas the B would need pretty much aftermarket everything

EG5 is 100% correct, K is the :honda: future :thumbsup:

[Steer^Gimic]

b series , classic = pass

k series = future, present.


like it or not, thats the fact.

until K series becomes more affordable to the average jo, B series will still be the more popular option for at least another year or so.

sure it may be the future, but future's nothing without a past!

[pgclee]

hmm..what bout same amount of money give to both car to modify, lets say 10k-12k...remember...W/o Quads...who will b faster???...hmm....

currently i don't see any K20a doing 9 sec, can someone post the web please? Is it an N/A or Turbo? i know in US there is this Eh doing 10 sec...B20b...

[Snoop_gee]

k20a is the bomb as panda crx was saying as well as EG5 go the K20a :D

[EG5]

until K series becomes more affordable to the average jo, B series will still be the more popular option for at least another year or so.

sure it may be the future, but future's nothing without a past!

once you start looking for serious hp, k20 will give you more hp/dollar

[EG5]

hmm..what bout same amount of money give to both car to modify, lets say 10k-12k...remember...W/o Quads...who will b faster???...hmm....

currently i don't see any K20a doing 9 sec, can someone post the web please? Is it an N/A or Turbo? i know in US there is this Eh doing 10 sec...B20b...

obviously your ar not looking hard enough.

Clutchmaster 2004 Honda Insight k2x All Motor 9.74@137
Clutchmaster 2000 Acura Integra K20 All Motor 9.99@134
Skunk2 RSX K2x All Motor 9.86 9.86@140.71mph

http://www.k20a.org/DSCN2579.jpg
http://www.k20a.org/DSCN2583.jpg
http://www.k20a.org/upload/mini-NDRA-MIR-009.jpg

[EG5]

with 10-12 k to modify you wont even see 140kw in the b series

[pgclee]

To EG5...

Are you sure? hehe...

The K20a is impressive...but can you find a Body like yours doing 10 sec? hmm...

[EG5]

To EG5...

Are you sure? hehe...

The K20a is impressive...but can you find a Body like yours doing 10 sec? hmm...

no sorry i cant find any eg wuth k20a race car out there.EG will be lighter and easier to setup. the dc2 is close enough.


and im sure about the power unless someone perform some dodgy modification or the dyno operator is playing with the settings?

the only way to tell hwo it perform is to run it down the strip.

[EG5]

To EG5...


The K20a is impressive...but can you find a Body like yours doing 10 sec? hmm...

if your pocket is deep enough anything can run 10s:rolleyes:

[pgclee]

oh...you can't find one...ic...
DC2 and EG is a total diff car though...diff chasis...

Yea, Dyno show nothing...the real show is when u run the car...totally agree with you...

[pgclee]

But one thing is that, Tuning of the car is very important...

just for example...Mines GTR...comparing to other company like esprit etc, Mines still leads yet they got the lowest hp...so, i guess sometime HP doesn't mean so much unless you have really fine tuning....

[EG5]

oh...you can't find one...ic...
DC2 and EG is a total diff car though...diff chasis...

Yea, Dyno show nothing...the real show is when u run the car...totally agree with you...

tons of EG ran 10s with b20

so just stay with the mighty B i suppose?

[EG5]

But one thing is that, Tuning of the car is very important...

just for example...Mines GTR...comparing to other company like esprit etc, Mines still leads yet they got the lowest hp...so, i guess sometime HP doesn't mean so much unless you have really fine tuning....
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[pgclee]

Fine tuning plays a big part i say....Haha...
You got the hi HP figure...sooo...

[EG5]

everyone and his mum knows about tuning is important

[pgclee]

ohhh....ic...u know that as well...
then don't say a small 10-12k doesn't produce 140kw....

[EG5]

yeah in your happy dyno .

man talk is cheap show some timeslip to back it up (seems like you have something up your sleeve)

[pgclee]

no la....your car is the fastest EG ard...may b i'll see you on the strip someday...

[pgclee]

by the way...i have nothing to show u...

[pgclee]

and how much u modify again? 30k?

[blackdc2]

ohhh....ic...u know that as well...
then don't say a small 10-12k doesn't produce 140kw....

you might see 135kw with 10-12k

money doest go far

header - 1400
high flow cat + cat back - 1000
good intake (mugen) - 1000
computer - 2000 + tuning
cams - 1200
valve springs - 600
head gasket - 300
retainers - 300
cam gears - 500
head gasket - 300
gasket kit - 200
head service - 300

already over $9000 going by my rough prices and we havent paid for labour yet. havent got the car tuned and havent touched the bottom end.

nor has their been any head porting done

From the numbers i have seen with similar setups, you should be looking at around 135kw.

[tinkerbell]

OK , if we are going to play list the parts prices, here goes:

all USED prices:

b20b8 bottom end - 500
b16a head - 400
4-1 headers & 2.5 cat - 800
ITR valve train - 750
cam gears - 300
ITR intake + bored TB - 700
VAFC - 300
flywheel - 350
FPR - 150
4250

NEW parts prices:

HG - 130
VTEC conversion kit - 120
ARP fasterners - 300
OEM freshparts for engine - 500
tuning cam gears - 350
tuning VAFC - 350
1800

labour = DIY

so for your $6000 - there is an easy 125kW lightly tuned at Mt Druitt there...

and with used parts, saves crazy amounts of cash,

up the ECU to full stand alone, combined with long and hard tuning session, and you will see close to 140kW...

and with 140kW you will be doing low 13 sec passes in a 1000kg chassis...

obviously using non-OEM cams, intake and headers might improve your chances at getting your 140kW+,

but i have never tried this, so cant state this with certainty...

[Tony]

K series is better, you are talking about 10 years difference in technology..

[tinkerbell]

hence why the two cost curves intersect once you get to about 150kW...

[Steer^Gimic]

this is quite a useless argument if you think about it. if you genuinely chasing big hp then you are more then prepared to fork out, in which i totally agree with eg5, go k20a.
but bringin me back to my last point, your average joe, shit talker ,OH member who will do nothing but I/H/E in there car stick with B.

and pgclee, stop watching Best Motoring DVD's your talking too much rubbish :D

[aaronng]

Are you making a high revving engine? To stay at the higher revs for extended duration, a R/S ratio closest to 1.75 will have the least lateral stress on the cylinder walls.

B16a = 1.75
B20b = 1.54
K20a = 1.62

So the k20a will be more reliable at high revs than the B20b, but won't be as free revving as the legendary B16a.

[tinkerbell]

a R/S ratio closest to 1.75 will have the least lateral stress on the cylinder walls.


might need to do some more reading to actually get this staement 100% correct.

ie what about a 1.86:1 r/s ratio?

will that stress the cylinder walls more too? or not?

[Tony]

If you want to go high rev, try 2:1 r/s ratio, someone is doing this in the US, and they are planning to rev the motor to 11,000rpm +, it's a K24 block with K20 crank btw..

[tinkerbell]

talk about a torqueless gutless daily driver?!!!

i doubt it would be a "daily" with that sort of combination though... that is basically F1 car r/s ratios...

[Tony]

The motor was designed for camshaft testing. They want to see if cam will still make power at that rev range.

[aaronng]

might need to do some more reading to actually get this staement 100% correct.

ie what about a 1.86:1 r/s ratio?

will that stress the cylinder walls more too? or not?
Ooops, you got me there. The larger the number, the less stress. 1.86 is less stressing than 1.75. My error. But I think the reason why 1.75 is ideal is because as you go to larger R/S ratios, the engines becomes an extremely short stroker (unless you have a very tall engine block to accomodate the long rod), and the engine becomes lazy to rev at lower rpms.

[aaronng]

talk about a torqueless gutless daily driver?!!!

i doubt it would be a "daily" with that sort of combination though... that is basically F1 car r/s ratios...
I've read about that one. Was it run at the original 2.4L or 2.2 or 2.0L? I remember they used a K20 head as well. If so, then there would be enough space in the tall block to accomodate a longer rod, while maintaining the stroke length of the K20.

[tinkerbell]

;) yeppers

[Civic Type R]

hmm...from what i see...the B20b done a 11.32sec...hmm...why can't it beat the evo with 500hp? u think i'm joking?...haha...i'm serious dude...
I have heard of them doing this before, so i can vouch for what he said :thumbsup:
A while ago in Singapore.

[Civic Type R]

Im surprised no one has mentioned the Frankenstein K20 head on a K24 CRV block.
Skunk2 in the USA have been building them for years.

[tinkerbell]

Im surprised no one has mentioned the Frankenstein K20 head on a K24 CRV block.
Skunk2 in the USA have been building them for years.

what's your point?

would this be better or worse or cheaper or more expensive?

[EG5]

I have heard of them doing this before, so i can vouch for what he said :thumbsup:
A while ago in Singapore.

ALot of b series allmotor has ran 10's

[Civic Type R]

what's your point?

would this be better or worse or cheaper or more expensive?

My point is that we seem to be comparing a Hybrid B20 are we not ? against a stock K20A.
Tinkerbell have you done a hybrid K20/24 ?

[EG5]

My point is that we seem to be comparing a Hybrid B20 are we not ? against a stock K20A.
Tinkerbell have you done a hybrid K20/24 ?

lol hybrid or not we are comparing 2000cc motor.

[Civic Type R]

ok.
:)

[panda[cRx]]

and pgclee, stop watching Best Motoring DVD's your talking too much rubbish :D

[tofu R]

My point is that we seem to be comparing a Hybrid B20 are we not ? against a stock K20A.
Tinkerbell have you done a hybrid K20/24 ?

Tinkerbells stopped his project, due to other commitments ...
but i think he loved the b20 so much that hes going back to make another one =0

[pgclee]

To Steer Gimic,

U don't know SXXt bout Vtec...Bring on your Vtec...i'll see you down the track...i'll Rape your car anytime...

[pgclee]

but one thing i wanna know, what is so diff in K20a that make it so special? hmmm............

[Steer^Gimic]

To Steer Gimic,

U don't know SXXt bout Vtec...Bring on your Vtec...i'll see you down the track...i'll Rape your car anytime...

shutup dickhead

[tinkerbell]

but one thing i wanna know, what is so diff in K20a that make it so special? hmmm............

this is what make search so special ;)

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/search.php?

www.google.com

[jdmlvn]

yes! a fight..woot

[pgclee]

hahaha...thanx tinkerbell....

[Civic Type R]

i will post a new thread about these two engines - something someone might find a valuable read

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=364016#post364016

[joyride]

To Steer Gimic,
U don't know SXXt bout Vtec...Bring on your Vtec...i'll see you down the track...i'll Rape your car anytime...

what have you done to your car pcglee? enlighten us :) or is it a secret weapon...?

[tinkerbell]

/unsubscribes from thread...

[pgclee]

i got a slow car....thats all...top speed = walking speed...hehe...

[wynode]

Guys....if you're not going to contribute to this thread. Then DON'T POST.

[pgclee]

So back to the B20 vs K20 topic...
both a impressive,but which one would u all prefer?

[Civic Type R]

i will post a new thread about these two engines - something someone might find a valuable read

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=364016#post364016

[jimmeh]

power=k20
cost=b20

[seanny]

K20A is still the better way to go. Newer technology= more room for improvements over the coming years.

B20 is definitely a great engine but we cannot compare something older to something newer. its like comparing a 1994 sir honda accord with a 2005 accord euro or shall. Or how bout comparing cher to jessica alba.

If you pimped both women up, Jessica alba would still look better than a pimped up CHER.

K20A is today and tomorrow and this would mean there would be more potential for tuning.

[aaronng]

K20A is still the better way to go. Newer technology= more room for improvements over the coming years.

B20 is definitely a great engine but we cannot compare something older to something newer. its like comparing a 1994 sir honda accord with a 2005 accord euro or shall. Or how bout comparing cher to jessica alba.

If you pimped both women up, Jessica alba would still look better than a pimped up CHER.

K20A is today and tomorrow and this would mean there would be more potential for tuning.
I choked on my coffee when I read "pimped up CHER". HAHA

But another good reason, is that it is easier to comply with emissions requirements with the K20 compared to B20 since a stock K20 is already meant to meet Euro III, while B20 is what? Euro II or I?

[ProECU]

with 10-12 k to modify you wont even see 140kw in the b series

not attempting to be condescending here, but thats utter rubbish, no offence, but it is.

You can buy crate B-motors from the USA for less than $10k, and i guarantee they make a LOT more than 140kW.

I do agree with most people here that the K is the wave of the future, however I would not have anyone in AU port the heads just yet.

Personally, i'd still build a B18/B20 (same block) resleeved with a B17 crank & rods to suit. Install rod squirters and have a long & healthy motor aching to be boosted to 30psi.

Block + Resleeving $2k
custom crank $1.5k
Rods + Pistons $1k
head Porting & Build - $3k
Turbo + manifold - $3k

Misc - $2k

There's your 10sec 600whp beast for approx $12k

[EG5]

not attempting to be condescending here, but thats utter rubbish, no offence, but it is.

You can buy crate B-motors from the USA for less than $10k, and i guarantee they make a LOT more than 140kW.

I do agree with most people here that the K is the wave of the future, however I would not have anyone in AU port the heads just yet.

Personally, i'd still build a B18/B20 (same block) resleeved with a B17 crank & rods to suit. Install rod squirters and have a long & healthy motor aching to be boosted to 30psi.

Block + Resleeving $2k
custom crank $1.5k
Rods + Pistons $1k
head Porting & Build - $3k
Turbo + manifold - $3k

Misc - $2k

There's your 10sec 600whp beast for approx $12k


omg.... have you actually done one? or bought one?

or you mate's cousin's friend's sister's boyfriend?

[ProECU]

my neighbours uncles grandmother -> she built it to go shopping on Pension Thursdays

I think we need a new Sub-Forum.

Mods, how about a WWF corner?

[EK9]

guys keep it on topic or go to pm...

btw, ProECU i think EG5 is talking about NA, not a turbo setup which u mentioned... originally it's wot this thread was considering in the beginning wen comparing the B20 and K20a... NA power.

[ProECU]

ah ok, my bad

[pgclee]

600hp for $12k??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.......If you are the owner of HKS, Yes, may be....10k for a 10sec car...Hmm...Then for those GTR's who spent like 60-70k...are they reaching the 6sec mark?..Hahaha...

[ProECU]

so you dont think its possible?

Ive given you some pricing, why dont you reply with some information and leave the bullshit to one side for something new for a change??

[tinkerbell]

fact - you need more than your quoted 12k to run 10 seconds.

fact - there is a certain blkcrx on this forum that is running close 600hp and he only managed 11's...

fact - there is a shitload MORE than $12k spend on that 400kW engine, lol.

no bullshit.

[ProECU]

yeah ok, 10 sec is a stretch, i admit there is a lot more involved other than engine to reach that time, OK!, but the HP figure is very realistic.

Lets put it into context, if I am not mistaken, page1 was more focussed on power.

btw: fact - James cant drive, ha!

[tinkerbell]

yeah ok, 10 sec is a stretch, i admit there is a lot more involved other than engine to reach that time, OK!, but the HP figure is very realistic.

Lets put it into context, if I am not mistaken, page1 was more focussed on power.

btw: James cant drive, ha!

considering James car could be wound out with more boost, as was only running 27lbs on the 400.1kW run,

i guess this power figure of 536hp *could* be stretched to 600hp,

but for $12,000???

c'mon, that is a little bit optimisitc don't you think?

specially since the engien was close to 10'000rpm when it hit the 400kW mark...

you gonna need more than


Block + Resleeving $2k
custom crank $1.5k
Rods + Pistons $1k

a simple sleeved block with custom crank and cheap assed rods and pistons to achieve that?

[ProECU]

did you convieniently leave out the ported & built head part?

James did those figures on ELF race fuel too, so why does that piece of info not get mentioned also?


Looks like yet another argument in the works, which i was soo keen to avoid.

so anyway, Yeah, you're right, forget I challenged you.

[tinkerbell]

well, a <$5000 block aint gonna support 10'000rpm no matter WHAT head you put on it...

and James using ELF racing fuel only derogates your "600hp for $12k" B series even further...

[tinkerbell]

Ive given you some pricing, why dont you reply with some information and leave the bullshit to one side for something new for a change??



Looks like yet another argument in the works, which i was soo keen to avoid.

um, you started it!

i reply with information (as you requested), and now it gets too hot and you choose not to defend your outrageous statement that:


There's your 10sec 600whp beast for approx $12k

[ProECU]

is that so, have you calculated side load on sleeves have you?

remember the so quick to comment, slow to ask comment..... I think it applies here to you this time.

The block WILL sustain 10k+ rpm's
The b17 crank / rod combination in a B20 gives a 1.7-1 R/S

Calculate some forces, & piston acceleration figures then comment.

[ProECU]

ha, how old are you?


um, you started it!

[tinkerbell]

fact - blkcrx engine does not = 600hp (even on ELF race fuel)

fact - it cost more than $12'000

what is the magic that you know about that means your theoretical $12,000 engine will produce more power than blkcrx's?

[ProECU]

if you want to discuss this without the usual banter, then i'll continue otherwise i'm not wasting my time on you

[tinkerbell]

fine.

[ProECU]

Ive never seen James' motor so i cant comment on his build, but lets say if you snoop enough, its amazing what you can find.

I dont know much about his head port & build, but its more than just coincidence that the USA guys consistently make more power than what James can achieve.
Credit to James, he's done exceptionally well, but even he will tell you there's more power to be had.

Where should he be looking for extra power, try vavle angle configuration.
Black Nitride Coated valves dissipate heat better than Stainless.

Try correct Micron depth of honing process for extra ring seal.
Try lightening mass in valve train

Correct piston preperation. How many engines have I seen that dont round the sharp edges?

Tell me, why do you think that 600whp is not attainable for $12k ?

The GE MID sleeves are used in top race US racecars, ask them for a quote $1500
Ask portflow or ENDYN for a head port quote. $3k
Eagle rods can sustain high HP, and even if you prefer something like Carillo, they arent all that much more expensive.

Is it only me who feels the import performance market here in AU is still underskilled and underdeveloped?
Look towards the USA, even CP pistons originated there.

it's doable, if I had the $12k I'd prove it.

[tinkerbell]

for example;

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=712430

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjI4OTA5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

parts =

AEBS T-sleeves 82mm bore
Ross custom low compression pistons 8.0:1
Billet rods
4 clover chamber head
standard size valves
100lbs valve springs
everything Swain coated
Jg edelbrock manifold ported and extrude honed
8x 96lbs msd injectors
65mm tb
HT300 63mm inducer 88mm exducer, 1.15 back housing
4in dp side exit
hks wastegate
hks bov
dss stage 5 axles
quiafe diff
Accel DFI Gen 7
Liberty custom final drive gear ratio


there are heaps of BIG builds in this thread: 600+++ HP STREET CARS....HOW MANY ARE THERE......:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1269352

BTW - here is an interestign article from www.importbuilders.com - the crate motor kings:

http://www.importbuilders.com/buildingtheultimatestreetcar.htm

the article suggests that a 300whp engine would be around US$12,000

another article describes:

http://www.importbuilders.com/buildingbestturbo.htm

[EG5]

peace.:honda:

[ProECU]

and so i quote...

"You don’t need ALL of that stuff, of course, this is just a GUIDE! The prices are not fixed, or set, those are AVERAGE prices. Of course, if somebody wanted a TON of that stuff, I would be knocking off a good deal of money for a “package”."

well, we can both extract & quote phrases and links to various web sites etc etc until the cows come home.
It really doesnt matter, if you think it cant be done, we'll then I guess you'll never try do it....

Whats wrong with aspirations & goals.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[BLKCRX]

fact - you need more than your quoted 12k to run 10 seconds.
fact - there is a certain blkcrx on this forum that is running close 600hp and he only managed 11's...
fact - there is a shitload MORE than $12k spend on that 400kW engine, lol.
no bullshit.

Yes iv spent heaps more than 12k on my engine way way way more than that.... iv been doing research on my own engine for over 5 years now, each time we get a little closer to my aim. but if i was to start the project again with eveything i have learnt yes 12k could get me very close to what i have here (engine only).

Fact i ran my 11.6 @129mph run 2.5 years ago now !! (June 2 2003) back then i had 250kw
September 2003 , 2 years ago autosalon, i had 322kw at the wheels
July 2004 autosalon 400kw at the wheels at autosalon
Fact i hav't been racing for over 2.5 yrs, im still trying to find time and set the car up correctly. 2.5 years ago we had little knowledge on setting the car up for FWD drag racing since then much has been learnt, if you look at some of the very old videos you will see how we had lots of traction and car swatting issues.

Fact i hav't been racing for a long time now due to the fact i hav'nt solved traction issues which hindered my performance 2.5 years ago I will be racing again soon but sadly customer cars and clients come before my own fun and games.

Fact there is plenty more left in my engine, our problem October last year resulted in us not making any effective power after 26psi of boost.

Fact we now have had my old head CNC’ed into over 50 pieces and have measured each and every square centimeter of the head to mathematically work out how to flow more air into the b16 head.

Fact my new head is almost finished, along with a new bottom end and completely new setup, try try try again until you get it perfect ;)


Regards James

[tinkerbell]

yeah, 2.5 years is a long time and your 11 sec pass was also hindered with gremlins i believe (fact?),

but james, is it a myth you can make 600hp from $12'000?

or is it a realistic possibility?

this really is the point in question...

[BLKCRX]

gremlins lol what the.. trial and error yes.. gremlins hell no ;) just going boldly were no man had gone before in Victoria ! only gremlins iv seen have been on TV in gremlins 1 2 and 3.

But yeah if I was given 12k to build my own engine, I could do it (engine only) ie long block (no manifolds etc) easy. Although yes It took many engines and many setups and lots more money than that to know what I know now about my engine.
Short version, yes its possible.
Regards James

[pgclee]

Wake up...12k is not gonna even make your car even close to 600hp on a HONDA...if u have the source, or you can do it, Bring it on to the strip...

Unless you got a GTR with T88 or T51Kai-R with the rite setting...and stock internal...u might HIT 600hp but performance wise...i don't think so...

And lets say you can get T88 kit for 4000bucks into GTR...but what bout inlet bore size? Intercooler? ok...lets say you got a freaking good deal for intercooler, injector, Cams, Port and polish, etc and all...12k is well good spend...
600hp is not to say unrealistic, but into a Honda, like i say, if you only OWN JUN and buddy with HKS, u will get there with 12k...anyway, Talking is CHEAP...so spend your 12k on a HONDA and get 600hp to prove us wrong, if not, don't talk too much crap...and if you got those 600hp, lets go for 30 lap on the track, and see blow his engine 1st...
Power mean nothing to me, and i think a proper setup Honda will still trash your 600hp = 12k car anytime if you're going 30 laps ard the track...

[ProECU]

Wake up...12k is not gonna even make your car even close to 600hp on a HONDA...if u have the source, or you can do it, Bring it on to the strip...

Unless you got a GTR with T88 or T51Kai-R with the rite setting...and stock internal...u might HIT 600hp but performance wise...i don't think so...

And lets say you can get T88 kit for 4000bucks into GTR...but what bout inlet bore size? Intercooler? ok...lets say you got a freaking good deal for intercooler, injector, Cams, Port and polish, etc and all...12k is well good spend...
600hp is not to say unrealistic, but into a Honda, like i say, if you only OWN JUN and buddy with HKS, u will get there with 12k...anyway, Talking is CHEAP...so spend your 12k on a HONDA and get 600hp to prove us wrong, if not, don't talk too much crap...and if you got those 600hp, lets go for 30 lap on the track, and see blow his engine 1st...
Power mean nothing to me, and i think a proper setup Honda will still trash your 600hp = 12k car anytime if you're going 30 laps ard the track...

You ever thought about standup commedy?

[pgclee]

hmm...may be, but you're better at it, so i think u'll make alot of money outta it...

[ProECU]

ok, but im sure you've contemplated KARAOKE

I rekon I saw you on IDOL

[wynode]

ProECU and pgclee, grow up a little. Although there is good info here, this thread has already gone off topic so hows about we try and bring it back to the subject of b20 vs k20.

Also, the discussion was about at car doing 11 sec passes.......not 30 laps around a circuit so no need to ask for a circuit battle.

[BLKCRX]

Here's a quick calculation which comes to $12,150.00 this doesn’t include any labor or machine work and is just a long block, no manifolds, clutches, injectors, fuel systems, turbo or anything else....so yeah motor only (longblock) 12k just can do it. JUST if you know what your doing !!

block sleeve kit 1200
rods 2500
pistons 1500
cams 1500
cam gears 500
valve springs 500
retainers 500
bearings 500
gaskets 500
oil pump 500
water pump 250
harmonic balancer 500
collets 200
valves 500
valve guides 500
timing belt 250
studs 250

The above is a list of al the things I replace on each engine build I design for my self, pricing is not absolute but close enough to the real deal, if anything slightly over priced.

Regards James

[i_own_you]

']i've seen a k20a crx vs a b20b EG and the k20a raped it.


i supplied that link at the crx forums. i will look again

its pacman CRX (k20a) VS Utah EG civic (b20b)

Utah with a 5 car standing head start and still lost. even though it was pretty close at the end. :D

--------------------

[tinkerbell]

does it mattter that i saw a B20B powered 83 Prelude beat a K20A2 powered 02 Integra by a few car lengths as EC drags?

comparing different cars is like comparing apples to bananas.

[i_own_you]

yes true,

but i was only backing a quoted statement.

cheers!

[tinkerbell]

but it was the second post in the thread, i think the discussion has moved on a bit since then ;)

cheers.

[pgclee]

Hmm...Does it count if i saw a B20b eg trash an EVO with ard 450hp??...hmm...

[Civic Type R]

/unsubscribes from thread...

:confused:

Maybe you all need to meet somewhere for a beer :thumbsup:

[pgclee]

lets not go off topic again...oh yea, you must consider how much power output to the car...lets say both same power but one K20a and one B20b...hmm..i really wonder which one will win...lets say both is 850kg...what u guys think?

[tinkerbell]

lets not go off topic again...oh yea, you must consider how much power output to the car...lets say both same power but one K20a and one B20b...hmm..i really wonder which one will win...lets say both is 850kg...what u guys think?

both with ITR cams, ITR headers, ITR intake manifold, stock internals, LSD, VAFC tuning...

IMO - the B20VTEC...

basis for opinion? a B20VTEC would be putting out more power -> faster time.

[tinkerbell]

oh, sorry, you said same power? same weight...

well the B20VTEC would still win as it has more torque ;)

[pgclee]

Tinkerbell...yea...i think so too...but till now i can't find any source about same car, same weight, same power but one is K20a and one is b20...
but i suddenly remember one thing, remember that time i was saying this EG civic in Singapore? he's doing like 11 sec quarter mile? i just found out that he doesn't use Quad Tb...that is really really smth huh...

[wynode]

So are we comparing stock B20VTEC vs K20a or is it also in terms of aftermarket modifying potential?

Then again, a B20VTEC engine isn't really 'stock' now is it ?

[tinkerbell]

Then again, a B20VTEC engine isn't really 'stock' now is it ?

but it uses all 'stock' parts?

the B18C7 is a "modified" VTiR engine?

the B16B is a factory spec modified VTiR engine?

the B20C is a factory spec modified B20B...

if it uses aftermarket parts, THEN it is not 'stock'...

[tinkerbell]

So are we comparing stock B20VTEC vs K20a or is it also in terms of aftermarket modifying potential?


no, we are answering pcglee's questions:


same car, same weight, same power but one is K20a and one is b20...

which one is faster on drag strip?

[pgclee]

yea...lets say both 320hp, both 850kg, same slicks, same car, but one is using K20a and one is using b20b...

yea..which one people???

[Civic Type R]

Torque figues of each engine?
revvability of each and drivetrain powerloss between the B series transmission vs the K series..

[Non Vtec]

aswell as gear ratio's etc.. You would have to compare dyno figures aswell as gearing, etc etc.. I'd pick a K20A given i ran 12.1 full chassis, stock motor with an open header. at 850kg

[wynode]

aswell as gear ratio's etc.. You would have to compare dyno figures aswell as gearing, etc etc.. I'd pick a K20A given i ran 12.1 full chassis, stock motor with an open header. at 850kg
But people won't be happy till you pulled out your K20A and put in a B20VTEC to see how quick it would go :)

[tinkerbell]

Torque figues of each engine?

undersquare Vs square engine,

i.e. B20 will have more torque than K20...



revvability of each and drivetrain powerloss between the B series transmission vs the K series..

wtf? define revvaility , ROFL!

drivetrain loss = same +/-3%

[Civic Type R]

whats so funny ?
You know what i mean.

[pgclee]

yea..i've just found out a guy with B20 in Sg got a 11.01..at 850kg, 3xxhp, N/A....and not much people are doing K20a at the moment..so i have no idea about K20a vs a B20...

[Non Vtec]

well I'm 830kg with 247whp and I ran 11.3 @ 190kmh

compare Chucks civic with Z10's civic, both used the same tyres, one a B20 one a K20 both ran the same time ones lighter than the other though... One engine was modified the other was stock..

Then compare chucks B20 with my K20, since mine has cams, I'm 1.5 seconds faster on a very similar set-up and weight

[pgclee]

so 247hp at the wheels is also 335+hp at the engine dude..so it's roughly the same time at b20...just depending on the good or bad launch...i guess...

[Paul1985]

id pick k20a over b20. Just my personal choice though. K20a is Honda's future and will be around well after the B's die

[EG5]

yea..i've just found out a guy with B20 in Sg got a 11.01..at 850kg, 3xxhp, N/A....and not much people are doing K20a at the moment..so i have no idea about K20a vs a B20...

not alot of people doin k20?
read k20a.org / honda-tech .

[pgclee]

i am saying in sg yonas...not saying not much people are doing..i know hips of people are doing it la...

[Non Vtec]

247whp is about 290 crank-hp not 335+ a honda only loses about 10-15% in the drivleline..

[exquisit]

whats the price of a k20 compared to a b20?

[Paul1985]

k20 is alot more expensive i believe. Im not exactly sure on the price of a b20 but a k20 will cost u a minimum of $8k for the engine most likely, thats not including the list of parts u will need. In the end a K-swap will cost $20k+

I dont think the b20 costs would come that high.. stock vs. stock that is.

But take into account how new the K-series engines are... IMO they have alot more potential. Some of the all motor results these things are doing are amazing.

Stock B20 in EG vs. K20 in EG.. i reckon the K would give it a ripping.

[tinkerbell]

whats the price of a k20 compared to a b20?


B20B8 = $600

K20A2 = $2200

[bennjamin]

B20B8 = $600

K20A2 = $2200

Is there weaknesses in the b20 block (being a CRV motor ?)- which you must replace the crank etc to cope with higher RPM's ?
So , realistically a b20b8 costs probably as much as a k20a2 to "get up to speed" ?

[JESPER]

Not to throw a spanner in the works, I know this is about N/A and what not. But to back up other statements mad about good tuning (which I know we all know about)

"Not planning on sleeving the block. The stock sleeves are more than sufficient for our power goal of 600whp. Jeff has done close to 600whp on b-series with stock sleeves, so given that these sleeves are 30-40% thicker and the whole bottom of the block is girdled, it's much more tortionally stiff." The motor in question is a STOCK TSX longblock. K24(?)
Taking from http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3163&page=2&pp=20

Again, I know its turbo not N/A, therefore a little off topic... BUT ... it shows that with that much HP good tuning can eliminate a cost. ie. Sleeves...It also states that a K series has better sleeves, again, STILL going to make more horsepower.

Apologies if post is off topic or didnt make sense :o

[tinkerbell]

Is there weaknesses in the b20 block (being a CRV motor ?)- which you must replace the crank etc to cope with higher RPM's ?
So , realistically a b20b8 costs probably as much as a k20a2 to "get up to speed" ?

yes, in reality you should be comparing a B18CR bored and sleeved out to 84mm to a K20A2

to be comparing an apple to another type of apple

not an apple to a banana...

[bennjamin]

yes, in reality you should be comparing a B18CR bored and sleeved out to 84mm to a K20A2

to be comparing an apple to another type of apple

not an apple to a banana...

OFcourse to that - what are the bare minimum issues to rectify on a b20a8 , in order to use for a NA/boosted setup ? And what kind of funds are we talking ?

[tinkerbell]

bare minimum?

simple:

ARP rod bolts = $85

[tinkerbell]

in fact, that is about all i have done to mine, besides cutting the piston valve reliefs and using ARP head studs,

and it is making 120kW at the wheels...

but i am swapping to a VTEC sump, soon (before i circuit race it)

RPM is currently limited to 8100rpm (stock DC2VTiR ecu), but i would be comfoortable taking it to around 8400rpm... (i will be taking a DC2R ECU to the next dyno session, i hope)

(my last B20VTEC was limited to 8500rpm and was utterly thrashed, and apparently saw 9200rpm once)

[wynode]

You still going to do your site and get us some info Dave?

[tinkerbell]

You still going to do your site and get us some info Dave?

yes, but i still have to track test the output before i do...

not point in describing/analysing how to build a B20VTEC unless it has been clearly proven. i know the last one i built kicked ass, didnt break etc, but may that was a fluke?

and i cant really catagorically state "this + this = 120kW" if it is only going to break after a few laps at the track...

so i just gotta install the fuel pump, gauges and baffled sump and it will be ready for the track...

[ATSEK4]

in fact, that is about all i have done to mine, besides cutting the piston valve reliefs and using ARP head studs,

and it is making 120kW at the wheels...

but i am swapping to a VTEC sump, soon (before i circuit race it)

RPM is currently limited to 8100rpm (stock DC2VTiR ecu), but i would be comfoortable taking it to around 8400rpm... (i will be taking a DC2R ECU to the next dyno session, i hope)

(my last B20VTEC was limited to 8500rpm and was utterly thrashed, and apparently saw 9200rpm once)

utterly thrashed? 9200rpm once? what do u mean?

[tinkerbell]

utterly thrashed? 9200rpm once? what do u mean?

Thrashed: beaten, whiped, battered, lashed, floged, flayed, defeated, hammered, trounced, slaughtered etc

after i sold it to someone, they 'thrashed' the engine, advising me of various 'kills' that had made with the engine.

from this i deduced that it had taken a lot of punishment, and was not surprised when the owner told me the VAFC had shown a max rpm of 9200 one night... (not sure why, as the rpm limiter was supposed to be 8500rpm, maybe was a mis-shift?)

[ATSEK4]

Thrashed: beaten, whiped, battered, lashed, floged, flayed, defeated, hammered, trounced, slaughtered etc

after i sold it to someone, they 'thrashed' the engine, advising me of various 'kills' that had made with the engine.

from this i deduced that it had taken a lot of punishment, and was not surprised when the owner told me the VAFC had shown a max rpm of 9200 one night... (not sure why, as the rpm limiter was supposed to be 8500rpm, maybe was a mis-shift?)

No suprise, my rsm always shows 9400, and my limiter with power fc is only 9100.. and my fuel didn't cut off yet. I dun think that 9200 is accurate.

anyway the b20b can rev up to 8500 without any problem?