ITR bottom end internal on B16A block??

[[ KNR ]]

Hi guys...

I need help asap...
I have EG civic with SiR II engine on it..and im rebuilding the bottom end with B18C (ITR) internal.
Can this be done with the actual B16A block..?

Cos at the moment i got the B18C crank, rods and piston to be fitted in.
But strange thing happened. As soon as we trial fit them, the piston stick out from the bblock.

The crank that i got has longer stroke...is that the right crank for B18C?
The rods that i got are longer thatn the B16A...is that rite? ( i doubt it it wasnt rite!) :confused:
The pistons are rite...cos it fits perfect...

Any help in regards to my question would be greatly appreciated... :)
and if any of you have any opinion how should i have done it....please let me know... :)

oh yeh...any pics to compare B16A parts and B18C would be good... ;)

[Breeze]

B16A block has a shorter deck height than a B18C block. A B18A or B18C block will work.

[HRV-80Y]

your better off sourcing b16b internals (ctr) than b18c internals (itr)...

[[ KNR ]]

oh really...?
so there's no way i can fit ITR internal on B16A block?

cos my intention is to get 1.8lt out of that...

thanks guys...

[[ KNR ]]

if i get the B18C short block..would it be an easier way to do it? consider i will fit the B16A head on it...?
would the head fit straight bolt on?

[aaronng]

Uhh, the B18 internals are for long stroke, so of course they will stand above the B16 block. The B16's revvability is quite good already. If you want to get more capacity out of it, you'll need a B18 crank and a shorter rod. Even this way, you won't get 1.8L out of it.

[wynode]

your better off sourcing b16b internals (ctr) than b18c internals (itr)...

That's still wrong as the CTR (b16b) uses a b18c block.

I'm surprised you're rebuilding an engine without knowing the major differences between a b16a/b18c block!?!?

[ProECU]

Uhh, the B18 internals are for long stroke, so of course they will stand above the B16 block. The B16's revvability is quite good already. If you want to get more capacity out of it, you'll need a B18 crank and a shorter rod. Even this way, you won't get 1.8L out of it.

This is wrong, displacement IS governed by Crank stroke...

[Limbo]

i was sure the b16 head is almost identical as the b18c block from the ITR. (checkout the forums for the poor man's type R)
The only difference between then is the lower block which is slightly high by a few mils.

The b16b uses a destroked b18c block

[wynode]

i was sure the b16 head is almost identical as the b18c block from the ITR. (checkout the forums for the poor man's type R)
The only difference between then is the lower block which is slightly high by a few mils.

The b16b uses a destroked b18c block
I think you mean b16b is a destroked b18c

[aaronng]

This is wrong, displacement IS governed by Crank stroke...
Yes, but with a B18C crank and the unknown long rods that he had, the pistons were above the deck at TDC, so shouldn't he use shorter rods in order to keep the pistons below the deck while still increase displacement while using the B18 crank.

[Perry]

from wat i know there certain parts from the b18c u could use but cant remember which parts u can use

[jimmeh]

the difference between the b16 and the b18c is, the b18c block is 7mm taller than the b16. thats where it get the extra 0.2lt of displacement in the b18c.

[ProECU]

The b18c block is 7mm taller than the b16. thats where it get the extra 0.2lt of displacement in the b18c.

Please explain...

[wynode]

the difference between the b16 and the b18c is, the b18c block is 7mm taller than the b16. thats where it get the extra 0.2lt of displacement in the b18c.
Displacement has nothing to do with the block height. It is derived purely from the bore and stroke.

[ProECU]

Ill try post up a spreadsheet i built detailing a few facts & calculations.

Should be helpful for everyone

[Shraka]

Displacement has nothing to do with the block height. It is derived purely from the bore and stroke.
You have to have a block tall enough to hold the stroke otherwise the pistons will stick out the top of the block at TDC and/or posibly fall out of the sleeves at BDC. If the B16 sleves/block is shorter, this could well happen with B18 parts.

[ KNR ], you're gonna have to figure out if your stroke + pistons fit inside your sleves. To do this you'll need to measure:
a = Your piston height from top to bottom of the piston
b = At TDC, the overlap of the piston over the block
c = At BDC the distance from the top of the block to the top of the piston
d = The length of the sleves (you'll need to take your pistons out to measure this)

To work out stroke:
x = c+b
Then you'll need to add your piston height (they need to fit in the sleeve):
y = x + a

Now for the answers:
If (y) is less than or equal to (d) then your pistons will fit, the problem is your conrods are to long. Solution: Get new, shorter conrods
If (y) is greater than (d) then your stroke is to long. Solution: You need a new taller block (to hold everything) or smaller crank (reducing displacement)
There's a gray area here though, as the piston doesn't technicaly have to sit totaly within the sleeve, only the piston rings do. But I'd wanna be safe and keep the whole piston within the sleeve (or most of it anyway). I heard of someone who stroked a V8 out so that the rings almost came out of the bottom of the block. The piston rings wore out in no time and he had to pull it all apart again and lower his stroke.

I've never actualy pulled an engine appart myself, so I'm not 100% sure about how much of the piston is safe to come out of the sleeve. I'd guess not much.

Anyway, hope this helps.

[tinkerbell]

the 'piston to deck height' on the B16 is also smaller than the B18's, at 0.02in and 0.03in respectively

so there is an easy 10 thou to play with ;)

[tinkerbell]

ProECU - dont hold back on the s/sheet :D

[jimmeh]

Please explain...

i did a bit of reading and came across this.

http://b16a.honda-perf.org/extras.html

and u can check with adrian -todaAU

[jimmeh]

Displacement has nothing to do with the block height. It is derived purely from the bore and stroke.

i agree with u but a taller block would mean u can get a longer stroke and therefore a larger displacement.

[tinkerbell]

i did a bit of reading and came across this.

http://b16a.honda-perf.org/extras.html

and u can check with adrian -todaAU

what on earth does this have anything to do with anything?

[EG5]

b18 crank and rods can be fitted into b16a block with hybrid TECH43 piston kit.

[tinkerbell]

you can also use a Toda stroker kit to make the B16A 1.8l

http://www.todaracing.com.au/assets/civic_1800kit_sm.jpg

[EG5]

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTY0MDM5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage2.wtdr/i=wMTY0MDQwNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

*custom machined buttons to support oil ring. this is how i can fit all that crank and rod in a b16a block. yes, you still retain the ls 1.54 rod ratio
*custom .708 lightweight tool steel wrist pin. rod must be rebushed to this from .826
*dedicated valve reliefs and lots of internal milling to reduce weight. piston weighs in at a mere 255 grams! most off the shelf 85mm pistons with this dome weigh around 315g.
*compression ratio is 11.5 to 1 with a b16a head unmilled and stock gasket.
*kit comes complete with rings-wrist pins-locks-buttons
*these pistons have reliefs that will clear cams up to 13.00 mm of lift.

Displacement with 81.5mm bore 89mm stroke = 1857cc
Displacement with 85.0mm bore 89mm stroke = 2020cc


the piston kit was intent to use with LS crank and rods (cheaper) on b16a

this kit will receive type R crank and rods too.

[EG5]

the toda kit is very similar to tech 43's

using stock oem crank and rods.

[EG5]

what on earth does this have anything to do with anything?

off topic at its finest :D
ozhonda style:honda:

[wynode]

i agree with u but a taller block would mean u can get a longer stroke and therefore a larger displacement.
But you mentioned that the extra displacement comes from the block being taller. Just wanted to clarify that this is not the case. Extra displacement will come from either a larger bore or a larger stroke (and as a result of a larger stroke, you may/will have to increase the height of the block).

[tinkerbell]

*may* being the operative word...

but you have to use an expensive set of parts to get away with it...

[[ KNR ]]

wow..thats lots of feed back..
thanks for all your support and suggestion..and now its time for me to make decision on what i wanna do...

however...if i was to keep the b16 block..does any oem shorter rod i can use? or i have to get cutom made...?
I'm thinking to get b18c block so it's so much easier..

[Shraka]

Did you measure your sleeves? Even if you get shorter rods, the stroke may drop the piston rings out the bottom of the sleeves (which I don't need to tell you is bad).

I think a whole B18C would be a much better idea.

[tinkerbell]

B18C or B18B

[ProECU]

just sleeve a B16 and go boost

[Shraka]

But then you lose the revvyness and response.

My VTEC DC2 is more fun to drive than a 205kw JZA70 Supra, and more fun than all the SR20DET and CA18DET S13s I've driven. It couldn't beat any of them in a dragrace, but I'd still rather it than those other cars ('cuz I chose it over those other cars. :) )

[[ KNR ]]

true rather drive NA cars at the moment... :)