B18C into civic, EG vs EF (Cost, weight, parts)

[Mooro]

G'day my next project is gonna be putting a jap spec B18C (VTir equivalent, 180hp, not type R) into a civic. I kind of like the old EF civics (old school) so I was gonna do it in them because I though I could pick one up cheaper and they would be lighter. But then I thought that an EG may work out cheaper in long term since conversion may be cheaper and aftermarket parts, mainly suspension and exhaust would be easier to get second hand and a civic breeze can be had pretty cheaply and can't be much heavier than an EF.

I wonder if you guys can answer some of my questions to help me in my decision.

Firstly is the conversion cheaper in an EG. I guess the main thing is do I need Hasport mounts for conversion in EG like I do in an EF. Are there any other thinks that will save me money in an EF. What about brakes for each car?

Does anyone know the actual weights of your average EF (1.5L carbie) versus a civic breeze.

Finally it seems to me that aftermarket parts are going to be cheaper for an EG since there is more around and more available second-hand. The main things I will be doing straight away are suspension (springs, shocks, swaybars), Exhaust (2 1/4"), lightened flywheel and CAI (both independant of car)

Thanks for your help.

[SINISTR]

Hey Mate :)

First of all - if you want to make things easier forget about EF 1.5 carbie or EG Breeze Civics, simply because they are both carburated motors and you're trying to install a EFi engine. Much easier and cheaper to simply bolt it into a already existing EFI engine bay.

EGs are easier because the engine bays are larger than the EF, engine mount brackets line up pretty much exact so less cost for mounts etc - EF you need a mount kit.

EGs have Hydraulic clutch systems - which is also what the B18C will have - whereas EFs are all cable driven.

Ease of install - go for EG but if you want to be different - go the EF.

BTW: didn't we speak about this before ? :P hahaha

[EGB16A]

Hey Mate :)

First of all - if you want to make things easier forget about EF 1.5 carbie or EG Breeze Civics, simply because they are both carburated motors and you're trying to install a EFi engine. Much easier and cheaper to simply bolt it into a already existing EFI engine bay.

EGs are easier because the engine bays are larger than the EF, engine mount brackets line up pretty much exact so less cost for mounts etc - EF you need a mount kit.

EGs have Hydraulic clutch systems - which is also what the B18C will have - whereas EFs are all cable driven.

Ease of install - go for EG but if you want to be different - go the EF.

BTW: didn't we speak about this before ? :P hahaha

^^^what he said^^^
as for brakes, i have cross drilled/ slotted disks in all corners with delsol calipers, and it pulls up really well. There is the type R option (changes stud pattern i believe) as well as many aftermarket brands ie. spoon, ap, brembo (all are expnsive).

Hunt around, there are bargains poping up all the time

[Mooro]

Thanks mate. We did talk about it before. It's getting serious now, the silvia is advertised for sale so I'm researching the nitty gritty stuff and weighing up my options.

I think I will have to go for a carby car because of price (I have found some cheap breezes but other EG's are still quite expensive). Aren't all EF's carbie with the exception of the Si's which are expensive? In terms of the conversion it's just a matter of getting an efi fuel tank/pump and fuel lines or is there more to it?

As far as the hydraulic gearbox's I would probably sell the integra box and buy a cable box. I'd probably make money out of this.

The engine mounts are the main thing. So I don't need a mount kit for a conversion into an EG?

Any idea on the weights of the EF's and EG breeze.

[SINISTR]

I think I will have to go for a carby car because of price (I have found some cheap breezes but other EG's are still quite expensive). Aren't all EF's carbie with the exception of the Si's which are expensive? In terms of the conversion it's just a matter of getting an efi fuel tank/pump and fuel lines or is there more to it?

As far as the hydraulic gearbox's I would probably sell the integra box and buy a cable box. I'd probably make money out of this.

The engine mounts are the main thing. So I don't need a mount kit for a conversion into an EG?

Any idea on the weights of the EF's and EG breeze.

the other main thing between carby and efi is the actual EFi harness - which you don't get in Carbied cars. You'd have to spends time and money to have it rewired which I believe could just about be the difference between a breeze and a Si anyways.

Selling the Hydraulic gearbox is going backwards - even with that - I don't think you CAN get a Cable box for the B18 anyway - never came accross one or heard of one.

I don't believe to the best of my knowledge that you need to modify engine mounts in an EG - But that could be the difference between a carbied and Efi chassis as well. I think rear engine/gearbox mount may need to be modified.

Breezes are the lightest of the EGs. EFs are also light - which makes me believe that the EFs are on par with the Breezes. But i could be corrected on that...

[Mooro]

In terms of the harness my plan was to basically swap over the whole harness from the integra to the civic? I imagined it would be time consuming and frustrating but possible without any extra expense. I thought the obd/obd1/2 issue would mean this was necessary anyway.

In terms of the gearbox's I thought any B series gearbox's could be bolted to any B series engine. I would get a cable box from a gen 1 B16A (hopefully find an LSD one :o ) I'm sure a hydraulic box would be better but budget constraints mean some sacrifices will be made and I'm sure a cable one will work fine.

If someone can confirm that I don't need a mount kit for a civic breeze then this may seal the deal for me.

Also if someone can confirm actual weights. I've doen a search on web and can't find anything but I think EF is about 950kgs and normal EG's are 1040kgs so hopefully breezes are under 1000kg's.

Also do breezes have air con? (My girlfriend "requires" it) If not then how difficult would it be to instal air-con from integra front cut in civic.

[joyride]

it would be very tight to fit in air con but its possible.
just the other day i saw an EF(??) crx with a jdm ITR engine WITH air con installed. yes i was surprised.

[Kawasaki]

I own an ED civic (or EF) they are cool lil cars.

ED Pros-
Light (around 860kg)
Old school look
Type r suspension can be used with dc2r lca's (most EG or DC suspension parts can be used, also check out whiteline and bilstein for products)

ED Cons-
No models are EFI, must convert
No models use hydro gearboxes, Convert..... (PS. I dont know anything about this so if u have info please post or pm me)
Some parts will need to be custom made, its not that bad tho

[SINISTR]

BIG_Reds (phils) crx?

Egs have plenty of engine bay room to fit an aircon. But to answer the question - I dont think Breezes come with aircons installed.

[egSi]

aredynamics wise eg is better but id say rock the oldschool but depending on our use, maybe aredynamics will be a factor.


btw. **** kepping aircon :thumbdwn:

[Mooro]

btw. **** kepping aircon :thumbdwn:[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I wouldn't use it myself but my girlfriend has exzema so in summer she needs otherwise he skin gets irritated badly.

I didn't realize ED's were 860kgs...thats light. Should be a quick little car with around 135kws.

Aerodynamics is not too much of a concern. I can't see it being a huge difference and my intention is a road car with the odd track day. As far as suspension I thought EG, type R etc had long springs so it actually increased the ride height.

I do love the old school look tho.

[egSi]

fair enough man.

get the ed man,

b18, nice 15s w/slammage and some bars = bad ass ride :D

[EG5]

I own an ED civic (or EF) they are cool lil cars.

ED Pros-
Light (around 860kg)
Old school look
Type r suspension can be used with dc2r lca's (most EG or DC suspension parts can be used, also check out whiteline and bilstein for products)

ED Cons-
No models are EFI, must convert
No models use hydro gearboxes, Convert..... (PS. I dont know anything about this so if u have info please post or pm me)
Some parts will need to be custom made, its not that bad tho

You also need EG front / DC2 front fork .

[dasicvtec]

woot - finally a thread that i can contribute to !!!


this is mainly about the weight

ok well ill start u off on some handy sites

http://www.civic4g.com/specs.htm - talking about the specs but the site is all about 4th gen civic's

www.4thgenerationcivic.com

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1135

www.clubcivic.com - is good - these are more for 4g civic swaps and information on the car and that

http://www.clubcivic.com/board/showthread.php?t=46489

http://www.honda-tech.com/

http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/4gtech.html#B16A2

www.jdmcivic.com

well now - according to many sites the lowest model ef's (and from what i can remember ) they were all under 2150 pounds with the lowest model being something like 1950 pounds (so thats around <900kg)

i think - because i remember asking this question but not getting definitive answers for this because those poundages are for US cars.... and i dont know about Australian EF's

but anywhere from 1900-2150 pounds

btw, ur answer is probably in the links somewhere but i cbf looking atm

i use to be a ef civic/crx freak - but atm ive started to get into school so the info isnt really in my head - but im sure once i get a car ill do some reasearcg again and know the ins and outs of this conversion

btw, im 16 and i wanna get a 91 CRX Si with a B16A , interior stripped and doing 14's stock

hopefully :D

CYA - hope this response helps

[tRipitaka]

i'd say go for the eg...
it'll be an easier job, and a much wider range of aftermarket parts..

[panda[cRx]]

i'd say go for the eg...
it'll be an easier job, and a much wider range of aftermarket parts..

:thumbsup:

[jdmlvn]

fair enough man.

get the ed man,

b18, nice 15s w/slammage and some bars = bad ass ride :D

agreed on egsi

[Mooro]

Looks like it's basically a split decision so far. It will probably come down to whether a good EF or good breeze comes up at the right price. Altho if the ED are only 860kg's I might save a bit of money and put a Gen 1 B16A in there...should still be a nippy little car. I thought they were about 950kg's tho. Another consideration tho is that a Gen 1 B16A is getting a bit long in the tooth and may require a rebuild sooner rather than later whereas a B18C will be probably 5-6years younger. My brain is starting to hurt now with so many choices and so my pro's and con's!

[Kawasaki]

You also need EG front / DC2 front fork .

Yeah.. the ED ones rub abit ya?

ED is cool, just abit of work like any conversion.

[Steer^Gimic]

Mooro i am in almost the same predicament (?) as you but have recently figured it out.
i had a ef8 b16 crx not too long ago that i was forced to sell, but after getting back on top of things i thought about getting another car.

i have a huge soft spot for the ed/ef shape and i think i ended up looking at 5-6 of them, some as low as 2k. i ended up putting a deposit on a eg breeze a couple of weeks ago and about to pick it up. reason for this being, newer chassis (track purpose) easier come conversion time. i know i still have carbi issues to deal with but it shouldnt be too much of a big deal. also aftermarket support for an ed/ef is starting to become scarse, where as an eg, there is alot you can tinker with. plus, it came up at an unreal price!!

after alot of thinking, i reckon iv made the right decision, i know id still RATHER an ed/ef, but eg is alot more practical in our situation.
hope i helped.

[Steer^Gimic]

..and with weight in mind, i believe a eg breeze and ed are about on par with eachother, if anything the ed may be a little lighter. my old crx weighed in at 960kg's semi stripped. bear in mind it had glass roof and half leather. my friends eg with b16 is under 1000 and still has its guts.

but goddam that wont be the case once im done with mine ;)

[dasicvtec]

ok im just wondering.... did any1 look at my post ?

if so, yay

well considering everything you have said

i think that the EG will be better to fit ur situation

[Mooro]

Sounds like were heading down similar paths. I think if I can find a breeze at a good price (probably need to find one with a buggered engine or something) then I will go that option but I think budget will determine that I go for an ED since I've seen many for about $1000.

As for weights I'm gonna have a good hard look on the web and see if I can find something because no one seems to know but with the relatively low powered engines we are using it's quite important.

I remeber an EG civic in zoom a while ago that was runinng a fairly stock B16A but was totally stripped (I mean interior, dash, rear floorpan and rear suspension) and it was running low 12's. Not my cup of tea but shows you what can be done.

If you don't mind could you pm how much you paid for your breeze. Maybe you can be the bunny for me :) and tell me all about how you go and what problems arise.

[Mooro]

ok im just wondering.... did any1 look at my post ?

if so, yay

well considering everything you have said

i think that the EG will be better to fit ur situation

Sorry dude. For some reason I missed you post. Just looked then...very helpful and I'll have a look at all those links.

1900lbs is ~861kgs and 2150lbs is ~975kgs which I guess is the SiR. So pretty light.

[dasicvtec]

yeh mate np

i just thought it may help u

btw r u sure u aint mayb thinking of a white EG civic with a b18c in it ?

and yeh it had all of the interior stripped - it was from NZ

if its this one then , im just saying, that it was a b18c - not b16a

;) :D :wave:

[Mooro]

yeh mate np

i just thought it may help u

btw r u sure u aint mayb thinking of a white EG civic with a b18c in it ?

and yeh it had all of the interior stripped - it was from NZ

if its this one then , im just saying, that it was a b18c - not b16a

;) :D :wave:


Yeh could be. THose crazy kiwis:)
As I was writing it I was trying to remember if B18 or B16...thought B16 sounded more impressive.

In one of those links I found the weight of the american equivalent to breeze is about 960kgs.

[Captiva_Blue]

Not that it probably matters to most ppl on a performance car forum, but the EF civic scored a significantly worse passenger safety rating in the NRMA crash data as opposed to the EG which scored an average rating. On that alone, adding a high powered engine would seem a little misguided.. to me anyway.

What I would be concerned about is the issue of handling.. the EF civic was designed to work with lighter SOHC engines, not heavier DOHC engines like the B18C so the already apparent trait of understeer in FF cars would become more apparent with the extra weight of the heavier engine and gearbox over the fron axle and would be harder to dial out with suspension tweeks. The EG on the other hand was designed to work with the B16A from the factory so the extra weight of the B18C wouldn't upset the chassis balance that much. It's also a much better looking and well engineered car IMO...

[EG5]

Sounds like were heading down similar paths. I think if I can find a breeze at a good price (probably need to find one with a buggered engine or something) then I will go that option but I think budget will determine that I go for an ED since I've seen many for about $1000.

As for weights I'm gonna have a good hard look on the web and see if I can find something because no one seems to know but with the relatively low powered engines we are using it's quite important.

I remeber an EG civic in zoom a while ago that was runinng a fairly stock B16A but was totally stripped (I mean interior, dash, rear floorpan and rear suspension) and it was running low 12's. Not my cup of tea but shows you what can be done.

If you don't mind could you pm how much you paid for your breeze. Maybe you can be the bunny for me :) and tell me all about how you go and what problems arise.

That was x hayden's eg hatch
ran 11.7 pb allmotor with b18
at some stage it was running a stock internal b16 with slicks and ran 13.3.
but this is race car , not legal at all for road use.

[garett]

i have an EG3 breeze with a b16a2 (with working aircon) lightweight wheels and mine weighs 940kgs and thats with full interior.

i rekkon if i was to lose the aircon.. and interior i would get it to under 900kgs

[Kawasaki]

Not that it probably matters to most ppl on a performance car forum, but the EF civic scored a significantly worse passenger safety rating in the NRMA crash data as opposed to the EG which scored an average rating. On that alone, adding a high powered engine would seem a little misguided.. to me anyway.

What I would be concerned about is the issue of handling.. the EF civic was designed to work with lighter SOHC engines, not heavier DOHC engines like the B18C so the already apparent trait of understeer in FF cars would become more apparent with the extra weight of the heavier engine and gearbox over the fron axle and would be harder to dial out with suspension tweeks. The EG on the other hand was designed to work with the B16A from the factory so the extra weight of the B18C wouldn't upset the chassis balance that much. It's also a much better looking and well engineered car IMO...

??? EF's came with sohc yes but also had the DOHC ZC and B16a in them, plus you would be doing work on your suspension anyway, if you wern't you'd be stupid, so the extra weight would have almost no affect at all.

[Mooro]

Dammit my brother just picked up a 1988 efi CRX for $1500 in reasonable condition. That would have been perfect!

[AUSVTEC]

ED'S are great little cars but if you are going to do an engine conversion you need to replace alot of things and will need alot of cash....I talk from experience as i have been upgrading my ed for the past 3 years.

But if you get the setup right you will love it, i have an ed with b16a and its awsome to drive.


ausvtec

[SINISTR]

Dammit my brother just picked up a 1988 efi CRX for $1500 in reasonable condition. That would have been perfect!

U serious???? where from?!?!?! buy it off him!!!

[Mooro]

I'm dead serious. He rang me up last night a said do you wanna come look at a CRX. I went with him with the intent of buying it myself but then he decided it was too good a buy. I'm not telling you were we got it yet cos the money hasn't been handed over so I don't want anyone else jumping in first.

It's a red crx with 370,000kms on it. It has cracked radiator (aparently the motor is alright but who knows) and a small dent in the passenger door, the paint is also a bit oxidised but otherwise completely stock and reasonable condition. He wants to put a B18C in it as well. Cheeky bugger got in before me.

[SINISTR]

oh - thats a bit of a bummer - didn't know you had competition with your brother for a CRX...

share it with him LOL

[Mooro]

Yeh hes always been a honda man. He currently owns a Honda City Turbo II which he'll be selling. I used to give hime shit about it cos my silvia absolutely creams it but now I've come over to the dark side.

[SINISTR]

Yeh hes always been a honda man. He currently owns a Honda City Turbo II which he'll be selling. I used to give hime shit about it cos my silvia absolutely creams it but now I've come over to the dark side.

DARK SIDE??? :cool: this is the 'drive a real car side' hahaha J/K

[n/a]

just to let you guys know there is no such thing as an Australia EF, they are called ED's. EF's are jap imports, can you guys please remember this!

[Breeze]

If it is any help I have done the B16A swap several times into carby EGs.

The swap is relatively easy and all bolt up. No stuffing around. It is easier than the earlier model civic, main reason - it fits under the bonnet and requires no mount fabrication or purchase.

You should get a front cut or an EFI loom for the LHS of the engine bay. Depending on the loom you may need to add some wires. The RHS is the same and doesn't need swapping. You need to add one wire for the fuel pump from the RHS loom plug. You need to fit an EFI fuel tank, an EK one will have less wear and tear and bolts in. You need to play around a bit with the fuel lines but they don't need swapping (just cut the factory ends of and use good quality high pressure fuel line at the unions between fuel lione and tank/filter/fuel return line.

A front cut gives you things like bigger master cyl and booster, correct proportioning valve and all the fiddly bits to make it go (including vac canister etc).

The EG chassis is stiffer than the earlie chassis as well. The front cut comes with an EG6 subframe which has a different ratio rack, factory lower tiebar and quite a bit bigger swaybar.

Aircon is no problems, some breezes did have them factory. Mine didn't but I made it out of bits from australian and japanese cars. All the relays etc are the same. I also retro fitted the JDM climate control aircon to two cars as part of the conversion and that is also pretty cool (pardon the pun).

The EG is a cracking little car. Have fun.

Hey Garret- Where did you get your EG hatch, is it white?

[EK Civic R]

Hi,
I got EG with B18C from Jap-spec Type R....
Found a lot of the teg parts bolt straight up onto the EG...
Engine, suspension, strut bar... even the recaros
I put on the wheels and brakes, you need to change the hubs and all..
I ended up changing the axles as welland fitted everything together...
Rear sway bar, the brackets need a little bit of mod, but no bing dramas..
Also the radiator support for the B18 needed modding as well, but once again not to difficult either.

My EG was originally Gli, was originally looking at EK but eventually changed my mind.
My civic now roughly weighs around 990kg, so just a bit under 1000kg.

Still haven't finished with the car, actually still a lot of work left, but it's running.. hehe
Good luck with your car and let me know if you wanna know anything else about whats involved if your looking at EG.

[Steer^Gimic]

Breeze thanks for that info mate. there was some things in your post that i never knew, like the ek tank fitting and the different ratio steering rack. i will be doing the swap soon enough and the fuel issue was my main concern
cheers

[Setanta]

EDs are 860 according to the RTA. In reality, they are a bit heavier as are their CRX Siblings. RTA figures don't match to proper weighbridge figures (I know, I've had an ED Civic and CRX on a weighbridge and they are heavier than the RTA figues on your rego papers say).

Anyway, there should be tons of aircon room - my EF9 runs AC/Climate control, PS pumps etc with space to spare although my engine positioning will be different to someone doing a conversion with an ED.

I'd like to biased and say that going the ED route is the go... but the EG is a younger car and I'd suggest getting one with an EFi pump etc already installed.

[Setanta]

just to let you guys know there is no such thing as an Australia EF, they are called ED's. EF's are jap imports, can you guys please remember this!

Quick - someone call the anal-police - I think there's some retention here :)

It's a dead horse, don't flog it... enthusiasts in the US call the ED/EE/EF a EF... it's not worth the hassle of educating the world :)

[type one]

speak to ekslut. He has done a full write up of dropping a b engine into an ED/EF.

Pros/cons/needs/costs etc.

[Snoop_gee]

speak to ekslut. He has done a full write up of dropping a b engine into an ED/EF.

Pros/cons/needs/costs etc.
can some1 copy and paste the link i cant find it :confused:

[MoDCoN]

can some1 copy and paste the link i cant find it :confused:


also interested in this sorta swap... looking for a cheap first car... guess that means EF for me! go :honda: ! :P

[lam.666]

heres eksluts ef engine swap post
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32565&highlight=ef9

hows this conversion coming along?