Advance timing

[fadz]

hi just a question anyone here advance timed ther car's if so wat are the bad's and goods

[BLKCRX]

Ping PIng ping Ping ... can happen if you advance it to far...especially how rpm high vacuum (mbar) tuning = correct timing and air fuel, a combination of both will revival greater benefits. But when you change / move the dizzy to advance your timing your putting advance everywhere, tuning puts it where its needed… ie Idle should be 16deg ;-) and low rpm high throttle should be negative / set ignition…… on a typical B engine.

[wynode]

Ping PIng ping Ping ... can happen if you advance it to far...especially how rpm high vacuum (mbar) tuning = correct timing and air fuel, a combination of both will revival greater benefits. But when you change / move the dizzy to advance your timing your putting advance everywhere, tuning puts it where its needed… ie Idle should be 16deg ;-) and low rpm high throttle should be negative / set ignition…… on a typical B engine.
Such a complicated answer. True that it advances throughout the entire rev range, but we're not comparing it to an aftermarket tunable ECU :)

I advanced my timing a coupe of degrees, ran PULP and got more KMs out of a full tank and there was also a slight improvement in power.

[fadz]

so is it worth doin it to my 94 model hatch vti civic?
if so il let my mechanic do it...

[tinkerbell]

must run 98 octane if you do...

[Lukezen27]

so is it worth doin it to my 94 model hatch vti civic?
if so il let my mechanic do it...


My last guy advance timed and I didnt feel any dif till I got my Timing belt changed by Hannys and they put it back to stock

Now its way less powerfull :rolleyes:

Oh and I only use 98 :p

[euGeR]

How do you advance timing without adjustable cam gears?

(other than the hanny's method)

[tinkerbell]

How do you advance timing without adjustable cam gears?

(other than the hanny's method)

start engine and wait til it is warm (or go for a quick strap!)

jump the service connector,

loosen the 3 dizzy bolts (leave the top one tightish)

grab a timing light, point it at the crank pulley, see what the timing is (you MUST look directly along the line on the timing belt cover) and adjsut the dizzy accordingly...

the middle mark is 16 degrees on my teg, the one furthest from the white TDC mark is 18 degrees,

which is what it is set at...

i can feel the difference :D

(oh - and dont forget to remove the service connector jumper!!!)

[wynode]

How do you advance timing without adjustable cam gears?

(other than the hanny's method)
I think this thread is talking about ignition timing only (as opposed to cam timing)

[ProECU]

If you listen to tinkers instructions and run 98 octane you will be fine.
After all, its only 2 degees advancement, I sometimes apply more on the dyno, and anyone who has had any experience here will know just how timing effects the power curve.

Enjoy

[2NTICN]

i got a b18a da9 and the guy i bought it off said to only use 98octane is in, would this be because it has advance timing? and if not would advance timing give me much improvement??? my only mods are headers and catback....

[Sitwy]

how come when trying to advance timing ...
need to "jump the service connector," ???

[BLKCRX]

The ECU will automatically advance or retard the timing were necessary… when setting the base timing you want to do this without the ECU changing the timing. Jumping the service connector does this. I still believe the best place is base timing to be set and left at 16degree.

Regards James

[ProECU]

James is mostly correct, base timing should be set to match the designated timing values in the ECU:

Honda in fact use 16.5deg as the benchmark for Base timing for all B-series and 15.25deg for Ludes & Accords.

[BLKCRX]

yeah but I still believe 16deg is the best ;)

I believe in god also, lol n in sexy female blonde ;-) size 6 with C ****

[ProECU]

ur crazy, lol

[BLKCRX]

ur crazy, lol
i sure am !! .. god knows why i hav't been locked up yet....

[string]

must run 98 octane if you do...
You have that all backwards.

You must advance the timing if you run 95/98 octane on a stock B18A (Unless you want to lose power, and fuel efficiency)

You don't advance timing to get more power. You add more AIR to get more power. Timing is just there to control when your peak cylinder pressure occurs.

Higher octane fuel takes longer to burn, thus you must start the burn process earlier than normal if you are running these fuels. Otherwise you are delaying peak cylinder pressure, and reducing overall power.

I run 95 octane, and 17.5deg btdc at idle.

[tinkerbell]

You don't advance timing to get more power.

you don't? :confused:

[string]

you don't? :confused:
Not in the way you are thinking; You use it to make the correct ammount of power for the ammount of air you are feeding in.

[tinkerbell]

so you do increase it to get more power?

[ProECU]

No....

[tinkerbell]

so increasing it does nothing?

[string]

so increasing it does nothing?
Once you are at max torque, no, increasing it will do nothing beneficial. You will make less power, with greater chance of knock.

P.s. No one thinks your funny...

[tinkerbell]

well, i don't think you are being very good at explaining why increasing timing doesnt increase power...

[saxman]

well, i don't think you are being very good at explaining why increasing timing doesnt increase power...


lets put it this way

there is an ideal point where the timing should be, usually referred to as best mean torque, or something similar... if your timing is set before that, advancing it will make more power, if your timing is set at or after that, advancing will make you lose power(and also increase the chance of damage to the engine)

[string]

well, i don't think you are being very good at explaining why increasing timing doesnt increase power...
Read post #18.

Timing is merely a tool to get peak cylinder pressure event to the best time to promote maximum torque.

If you get power from advancing timing, it means that before you did it you were wasting power which was allready there available to you.

If you go around saying to people that advancing timing gives power, less knowledgable people will just go an advance their heart away, not really knowing what it does.

[tinkerbell]

so you sometimes increase timing to increase power?

[string]

so you sometimes increase timing to increase power?
Did you even read my post?

Go and spread some missleading information somewhere else...

[tinkerbell]

Did you even read my post?



no, i was replying to saxman, you posted after i had clicked reply to post.



Go and spread some missleading information somewhere else...

where have i posted any misleading information?

[string]

Pretty much every post. You are missleading people to believe that advancing timing increases power.

You know what saxman and I are saying, no need to be a smartass and pick apart what we are saying, the argument is closed.

[tinkerbell]

oh, i think you are wrong.

my personal belief is that increasing timing DOES increase power.

particulary if people follow my directions to do it. (post #8)

i.e. to 18' - the outer mark on the crank pulley and WITHIN Honda's original specifications of:

16' BTDC +/- 2'

AND runing 98 octane.

so, under what circumstances will this NOT increase power?

[string]

Ok, you clearly did not understand what I was saying.

I am talking about timing on an individual power stroke level, not a whole rpm range global scale.

In your specific example, I wouldn't be suprised if you LOSE power.

It takes far longer to burn 98octane fuels than 91/93 which is recommended by the manual. 2 degrees may not make that up.

Advancing timing over the whole rev-range is stupid. How do you know that Honda didn't go to MBTT (max best torque timing) at some points in the rev-range? By advancing you are going past this, straight into knock teritory. You may benefit out in some areas (due to Honda's conservative standard timing maps) but you can never be sure.

Advancing to 18 degrees is a waste of time.

On my previous engine, I ran at 21.5degrees base timing on 95 octane. No audible knock count. The butt dyno didn't indicate any increase in power at multiple intervals between stock and this level.

So to answer your question. If your comparing running 93 octane at 16degrees to 98 octane at 18degrees, then i'm going to claim that you will not make any more peak power at all, maybe less.

[tinkerbell]

Ok, you clearly did not understand what I was saying.


hence:


well, i don't think you are being very good at explaining why increasing timing doesnt increase power...

i am glad you have bothered to explain what you are talking about...

BTW - my Honda manual tells me to run minimum 95 octane!

BNTW2 - we also dont have 93 octane here, where are you posting from, lol!

[tinkerbell]

(i am going to laugh my ass off if you have been thinking that the '98 octane' that i refered to is the same as usa 98 octane!)

[string]

I am talking about RON. I am assuming that the 98 RON you are talking about is BP Ultimate or Optimax or whatever.

95 RON I am talking about normal Premium.

I don't know or care what RON normal fuel is. I said 91/93 because thats what I assumed it is.

If we don't have 93 RON here, what the hell is normal?

I am posting from Newcastle NSW AUSTRALIA

[string]

My manual says 91 RON minimum by the way.

[tinkerbell]

'normal' is 91 RON...

[string]

There you go, replace 93 in my posts with 91...

Since that is the case, I can say with almost 100% certainty that you will LOSE power goingt from 91-98 and only advancing 2 degrees.

[tinkerbell]

lose 'peak power' or 'power everywhere'?

you need to be specific, as i will be dyno testing this in the close future...

[string]

You won't be able to get conclusive evidence from a dyno.

The two sets of results will be closer than the mean tolerance in a dyno run so any results you get will be void....

Where you gain/lose power will depend exactally on how the timing map is setup standard. If at one point the map is more advanced than MBTT (incredibly unlikely but i'll humour you) then you will see a HIGHER power. But for the rest part, you will see a lower power level everywhere.

[tinkerbell]

um, so what you are saying is that your theory that increasing timing will lose power, cant actually be proven or disproven?

well, this will be an interesting dyno session!

starting at 14' i will do 3 runs,

let it cool 10 mins

moving to 16' i will do 3 runs

let it cool 10 mins

move to 18' i will do 3 runs

let it cool 10 mins

move to 20' i will do 3 runs

are you saing that this will not give any indication at all of what changes to static ignition timing will do to an engines power output under load?

BTW - in your opinion is 10 mins enough cooling time, or too much?

[tinkerbell]

oh, and will the results be affected in any particular way if a V-AFC is being used.

or for the sake of consistency, should this product be set to zero?

[tinkerbell]

and just to get it REALLY certain, you are saying that increasing timing and increasing octane i will see generally "lower power level everywhere", even on non-stock engines?

or are your assertions ONLY in relation to stock, non-modified engines? (which you have not mentioned anywhere, but just thought i would check...)

[string]

This is a very stupid argument. We are obviously on two different levels understandings as to how ignition timing affects torque output.

Your wasting your time by doing these dyno runs. You will not get any results that are applicable to anything but your car.

My comment was that going from 91-98 octane and only advancing 2 degrees would cause a loss of power. Nothing more.

A tuned, modified engine would obviously not be running on 91 octane, and would have a well tuned ignition map so this entire thing is useless as advancing the base timing would mess it all up.

And I did not say that it couldn't be proven at all.

Do multiple dyno runs, I bet you don't get the same result. I'm saying that on a roller dyno, there are just far too many variables, which could cause the result to vary more than the variance in the results that are expected.

[tinkerbell]

My comment was that going from 91-98 octane and only advancing 2 degrees would cause a loss of power. Nothing more.


well, no - your original comment in dispute was:


You have that all backwards.

You don't advance timing to get more power.

whereas, i believe that you "do advance the timing to get more power"...

i am willing to prove it as well, but now you are saying it will only be relevent to what happens on my particular vehicle?

[ProECU]

$5 to whoever can guess who the overpaid & underworked law professional is!


i believe that you "do advance the timing to get more power"...

If thats what you believe, then just go ahead and do it, stop structuring your questions to cause arguments...It's not a court room !

[saxman]

well, I'll throw a wrench in the loop and say that I have experienced gains in multiple hondas(gains showing up at the drag strip, not on the dyno... never tested on the dyno) by simply bumping up the timing at the dizzy. The honda timing maps do tend to be quite conservative, and power can be found by advancing timing across the board. Obviously there is a point where advancing more doesn't help, but on a stock honda, some power can be had from advancing timing.

[ProECU]

agreed, and it DOES show up on the dyno, especially on the torque graph

[string]

ProECU knows the score :D

Tinkerbell: There is no point picking apart my comments then moulding them to fuel your argument. Go and do a EFI 101 crash course or something, then you may understand what we are getting at here.

When I mentioned the specific scenario, it was in response to that specific question you asked.

When I made the general comment, it was in the context of an engine tuned for maximum performance from the various elements bolted onto it.

Go ahead and spend all that time and money on dyno testing for no useful result.

There is ZERO point in testing this. On a standard motor, the power differences are negligible. You'll get a bigger change in power from slapping an exhaust or intake on. When a modified motor comes into the equation, it is being tuned correctly in terms of timing, so base changes are irrelevent.

Good day.

[string]

Oh, and you will only find these gains when comparing a setup EXACTALLY the same.

Changing fuels is NOT THE SAME SETUP.

Going from 91-98 with no other changes will result in a LOSS OF POWER on a standard honda motor (one which takes 91 this is, most non-vtec's).

An early poster in this thread wanted to gain power. So what do you do? He wants to increase timing. Lucky for him, honda maps are rather conservative, so you increase timing. But because of this you will be more prone to knock. So you go and buy a higher octane rating fuel, such as ultimate.

This gives a slower burn and you will end up with a similar power level to before, but with a much cleaner fuel. To then attain the 'mean best torque' you can advance a bit more.

Another posters gave the reasoning, when you advance timing you must use a higher octane fuel.

A better reasoning is that when you use a higher octane fuel, you must advance timing.

[ProECU]

The aim is to achieve max power, with as little timing advance as possible.

Advancing timing ie, igniting the mixture earlier, when piston position is further from TDC, from my point of view, is not ideal.

I've had enough of legal docs today...

[string]

The aim is to achieve max power, with as little timing advance as possible.

Advancing timing ie, igniting the mixture earlier, when piston position is further from TDC, from my point of view, is not ideal.

I've had enough of legal docs today...
Timing is what controls the power! Once fuel mixtures are in check, you can't achieve max power with less timing. MBTT by definition, is the timing at which max torque is achieved. If you want to run a little convservatively you can back down a few degrees after that.

[tinkerbell]

Another posters gave the reasoning, when you advance timing you must use a higher octane fuel.


well, that was actually me:


must run 98 octane if you do...

now you say:


A better reasoning is that when you use a higher octane fuel, you must advance timing.

sure, it may be another type of valid reasoning, but maybe you have got it 'backwards' instead of me?

simply because this actual thread is about advancing timing, NOT about using higher octane fuel...

i.e. if the initial post had said, "has anyone used higher octane fuel" instead of "has anyone advanced their timing"

your response would be entirely valid...

[tinkerbell]

There is ZERO point in testing this. On a standard motor, the power differences are negligible. You'll get a bigger change in power from slapping an exhaust or intake on. When a modified motor comes into the equation, it is being tuned correctly in terms of timing, so base changes are irrelevent.

assuming the modified engine has programable ECU?

[string]

The person who commented that you must use higher octane fuels when advancing timing was wrong. You do not have to at all. Depending on the state of ignition tuning, you may see more power by doing so. Increasing fuel octane will only reduce knock if and only if it is occuring.

When you increase fuel octane, you MUST advance timing, otherwise you will lose power.

Take a look at the two examples above. The first one is the initial reasoning, the second one is my 'better' reasoning...

If you think I have it backwards now, then you are an stubborn idiot and should go and find a different forum to argue on.

There is no point taking this any further. You do not have a grasps on the very basics of how an engine runs, or is tuned.

I tried to tell you about max best torque, and how it relates to my definition of the purpose of timing, but you continiously pick apart my comments and take them out of context.

I am done here. Anyone who reads this thread can make up their own minds, I just hope that they don't read a word you have said due to the ambiguities you have created by trying to twist what I have said into your own way.

[lighty01]

ookkkaayyyy.. afta reading this for a while i decided to adv my timing.. i was always running high octane fuel... there is a better lower rpm response and zorst notes are different.. i was told to listen out for pinging when going up hillz etc.. ill get back to everyone tomorrow.. otherwise so far its going betta

[euGeR]

What does pinging sound like up a hill?

[tinkerbell]

What does pinging sound like up a hill?

about 3-5 small pebbles in a empty coke can, shaken gently...

[lighty01]

Everythin is still running smoothy.. sooo thumbs up for adv timing.. although.. i think its best to advance it where the car will run at its best.. not just advance it to gain a lil power.. sooo if ur a tight ass like me.. DIY but if ur looking for best performance its prolly best to give it to a mech to do it coz he has all the measuring equip.. kewlies!!!

[tinkerbell]

Everythin is still running smoothy.. sooo thumbs up for adv timing.. although.. i think its best to advance it where the car will run at its best.. not just advance it to gain a lil power.. sooo if ur a tight ass like me.. DIY but if ur looking for best performance its prolly best to give it to a mech to do it coz he has all the measuring equip.. kewlies!!!

does it feel more powerful?

and did you actually use a timing light when you adjusted it?

[string]

You should be touching anything under your bonnet if you think there is a lot of "measuring equip" for changing base timing...

Cheap timing light is 20 bucks... Everyone should own one...

[lighty01]

tinkerbell- yes i did use a timing light... honestly id doesnt feel more powerful.. just better zorst tone and may a lil lower to mid power... but nuthing significant.. and besides.. its free.. so im not complaining..

string- when i said measuring equipment it was for the noobs who hav no idea how to do anything under the bonnet.. so its best to take it to a mechanic..

[iamhappy46]

Hmmm... Seeing as most B-series engines have knock sensor for preventing pinging under extreme heat conditions, advancing the timing when using a higher octane fuel is VERY GOOD. 98 RON has more energy stored within it so advancing the timing is the equivalent of igniting TNT, it takes more energy to ignite but compared to a bottle of petrol of simliar weight, the explosion is much bigger.
When taking a motor into account, advancing ignition timing forward 2 degrees makes the engine more efficient BUT for those of you that claim to have felt no difference or a loss in power, your Knock sensor may have activated(for many various reasons) which is designed to retard timing by 4 degrees so your 18+ just became 14+(hence loss of power) and your ECU will not report a fault as the knock sensor is actually working!!

If you have I/H/E to let your engine breathe better, advancing the timing by no more than 3 degrees and reap a gain in power across the board.

For those of you that think Honda knows best, realise that Honda actually sell their cars to cardigan wearing granma's too who will put 91 RON in their tank. So they have to take this into account with their ignition mapping. Most JDM spec imported models have more aggressive timing and more base timing cause they have access to 100RON fuels on their standard I/H/E cars, making more power!!

Remember... the bigger the bang, the more fuel mixture your burning, the more energy you are releasing, the more 'fuel effecient' the motor becomes.

Of course aftermarket ECU's or 'plug-in chips' want factory base timing so that their increased ignition advance maps are spot on.

Don't even get me started on this...

Did I mention I am a mechanic(and a car magazine writer) and do this for a living?? I see positive gains from ignition timing advances atleast once a month.

Ask any performance orientated workshop their opinion and follow it. Why else would the GTP Civics be running more timing despite higher track temperatures?? The SR20DE series Pulsar gain 8Kw by advancing the timing 6 degrees forward and using the knock sensor to retard timing above 6000rpm.

[iamhappy46]

Forgot to add that if you really have problems with pinging, I suggest going 1 heat range colder in your spark plugs when you advance your timing (IE NGK BCPR5ES to BCPR6ES or equivalent iridium plug, BCPR6EIX)
The mild combustion chamber temp increase will stop the plug from fouling up or mis-firing.
Good luck!!

[lighty01]

ok.. its been a while now.. i filled $43 of 98 octane fuel and got 430 km! then i filled $15 of pulp and got 150km.. so far it looking great.. performance has improved more because i advanced it further!:P my car is stock.. i raced a stock twin cam corolla seca and he got axed!!! (my car is 1.5 sohc dual carbi) so yeah.. adv timing seems to be going great.. cept i wonder y cars dont come stock with adv timing??

[tinkerbell]

cept i wonder y cars dont come stock with adv timing??

possibly due to the risk of poor fuel?

but remember you are using higher octane fuel as well, it may not be available at all times or customers who buy cars may not wish to spend more on fuel to get better proformance?

[MoDCoN]

to dig this up again... there are small gains (not necessarily just power, but clean burning) to be had from advancing timing, while running basic bolt ons... but once you're using an aftermarket ECU e.g. hondata, you want to be running the factory settings? and if you have advnced your timing, you need to buy hi octane stuff to prevent pinging... and use colder spark plugs? wow... i wish there was a 101 subject for stuff like this.. cos it's real important for us wannabe tuners... im learning so much from this forum!

[ProECU]

Hmmm... Seeing as most B-series engines have knock sensor for preventing pinging under extreme heat conditions, advancing the timing when using a higher octane fuel is VERY GOOD. 98 RON has more energy stored within it so advancing the timing is the equivalent of igniting TNT, it takes more energy to ignite but compared to a bottle of petrol of simliar weight, the explosion is much bigger.
When taking a motor into account, advancing ignition timing forward 2 degrees makes the engine more efficient BUT for those of you that claim to have felt no difference or a loss in power, your Knock sensor may have activated(for many various reasons) which is designed to retard timing by 4 degrees so your 18+ just became 14+(hence loss of power) and your ECU will not report a fault as the knock sensor is actually working!!.

We assume here the car actually has a knock sensor. Many hondas especially 92-96 did not come with a knock sensor.
Ive datalogged knock retard, and believe me, its a LOT more than 4 degrees.



Of course aftermarket ECU's or 'plug-in chips' want factory base timing so that their increased ignition advance maps are spot on.
Don't even get me started on this....

Very True, there is definately a lot of sh$t out there.


Did I mention I am a mechanic(and a car magazine writer) and do this for a living?? I see positive gains from ignition timing advances atleast once a month.....

Good to know, I may need to chat with you for a future product release.


For those of you that think Honda knows best, realise that Honda actually sell their cars to cardigan wearing granma's too who will put 91 RON in their tank. So they have to take this into account with their ignition mapping. Most JDM spec imported models have more aggressive timing and more base timing cause they have access to 100RON fuels on their standard I/H/E cars, making more power!!

Remember... the bigger the bang, the more fuel mixture your burning, the more energy you are releasing, the more 'fuel effecient' the motor becomes.
Ask any performance orientated workshop their opinion and follow it. Why else would the GTP Civics be running more timing despite higher track temperatures?? The SR20DE series Pulsar gain 8Kw by advancing the timing 6 degrees forward and using the knock sensor to retard timing above 6000rpm.

I am increasingly becoming more concerned over the perception that MORE is better. Although everything stated by "iamhappy46" is generally true, there are many instances where retarding timing will nett more power...especially with cam changes.
...and say you gain a few extra peak kW's.....ask yourself at what expense.

People need to be aware of this when tuning themselves as there is a lot of power generally to be made through correct timing.
Personally, I like to leave base timing where honda intended it, and tune timing via the ecu, becuase as I eluded to, timing can be applied where apropriate.

[iamhappy46]

I agree here with PRO-ECU.
Ignition timing is something best left to the professionals. 3 degrees would be a limit but even 1 degree can make a difference. Tuning via the right chip or ECU is the best way to get your engine running right tho.
I guesstimated 4 degrees by tapping the block with a screw driver and using a timing light ;)
I was talking about I/H/E modified cars for advancement. Camshaft changes need timing to suit the new cam, where efficiency is more wide spread or localised(depending on the cam)

MoDCoN, you appear to be on the right track. That is really the basics tho, it gets more indepth than that!!

Always make sure you tighten up your dizzy bolt after adjusting as well, things get really messy if the off centred weight of your dizzy makes it advance ALL the way. Yep, seen it happen!!

[iamhappy46]

Another thing,
Say your trying to stick to the speed limit on a highway drive and that with 91RON and standard timing, you require 20% throttle to keep the speed constant.
If you use 98RON and the correct timing, you will release more energy from the fuel your using and find that you may require only 15 to 18% throttle to keep a constant speed as more 'energy' is available. Using less throttle, means less air input and means using less fuel = GOOD when fuel is $1.30+
Expect about 7 to 10% better fuel economy on a long trip and is why 98RON is worth the extra 4% premium over 91RON

[lighty01]

ok ok..tday i stopped at bp (best petrol :P) and pulp and high octane petrol was the same price.. so i filled 10 buks.. tday.. my tank is empty again and i see i did 125km! happy using high octane coz its more enviro friendly plus the lil bit of extra power.. still going great!

[MoDCoN]

Another thing,
Say your trying to stick to the speed limit on a highway drive and that with 91RON and standard timing, you require 20% throttle to keep the speed constant.
If you use 98RON and the correct timing, you will release more energy from the fuel your using and find that you may require only 15 to 18% throttle to keep a constant speed as more 'energy' is available. Using less throttle, means less air input and means using less fuel = GOOD when fuel is $1.30+
Expect about 7 to 10% better fuel economy on a long trip and is why 98RON is worth the extra 4% premium over 91RON

really? thats really good to know! thanks! esp. knowing you bein nicer to enviro too! and thanks, i'm happy to have learnt some more! cheers!

MoD

[Sitwy]

I did mine today! it gain a bit more power and it is very obviously when hit vtec...the car go harder!
very happy of it !!

[MoDCoN]

Another thing,
Say your trying to stick to the speed limit on a highway drive and that with 91RON and standard timing, you require 20% throttle to keep the speed constant.
If you use 98RON and the correct timing, you will release more energy from the fuel your using and find that you may require only 15 to 18% throttle to keep a constant speed as more 'energy' is available. Using less throttle, means less air input and means using less fuel = GOOD when fuel is $1.30+
Expect about 7 to 10% better fuel economy on a long trip and is why 98RON is worth the extra 4% premium over 91RON


this also means you get more energy...

if the rate of consumption is the same (ie WOT), and the petrol contains more energy per volume, then you get more pwer... :)

[iamhappy46]

Correct.

[MoDCoN]

i just found some good info about this for d-series... (how to do)

http://www.sohchonda.com/ipw-web/bulletin/index.php?pid=5

[FR33K]

i advanced my timing last week end.. made a HUGE difference.. considering it was set at 14degrees hehe
i went to 18deg and now the car screams
i think i had really noticeable gains coz i was drivng my car around retarded for the last 10 months..
on the track i managed to shave approx 3.5 secs off my 0-160 time (from 24 secs to about 20.5) and about 0.5 secs off my 0-100 (from low 8's to high 7's)

[Astro]

so many pros and cons....but a good read i must say...

so on a dc2r is the standard timing at 16 degress? can someone please confirm?

and if so i advance the timing...what should i advance it to?? 18 degress? (i am running on 98 RON)

thanks

oh and my aim is top end power..

[wynode]

so on a dc2r is the standard timing at 16 degress? can someone please confirm?


Check in your manual or on the plaquard on the bonnet.

[Astro]

ok say it is 16 degress...should i advance it til and only 18 degress?

[wynode]

How will u know when it is 18 degrees?

[krasyvy]

http://hondata.com/dynocivicsi.html

interesting read here

there is a huge difference between a tuned stock b16a and untuned stock b16a

[ProECU]

the 3 timing marks are 14,16,18deg respectively from memory

[DynoDave]

the 3 timing marks are 14,16,18deg respectively from memory
Mr ProEcu is correct and there is also a TDC mark on the balancer as well the 16 degree make normally has white paint on it to show you the correct one.You gota love Honda :thumbsup:
Regards Dyno Dave

[edw-R]

Why don't honda just have one mark on the crank pully?

[wynode]

Mr ProEcu is correct and there is also a TDC mark on the balancer as well the 16 degree make normally has white paint on it to show you the correct one.You gota love Honda :thumbsup:
Regards Dyno Dave

Just confirming that the white mark is #1 TDC ?

[DynoDave]

Just confirming that the white mark is #1 TDC ?
Ok I have a new B-Series balancer in my hands and the white mark is TDC and the 16 degree mark is a faint pink colour.
Regards Dyno Dave

[Zimp13]

ok.. good thread....

correct me if i m wrong, if u use higher octane fuel than recommended by Honda, u MUST advance the ignition timing.....

but how come when i use ron98 i feel my car is more responsive and has more power yet i didnt adjust the ignition timing.... and when i use ron95 back, i feel the engine is noisier and heavier....
so do i still need to advance the timing when i m using the ron98 fuel cos i m going to use ron98 fuel on my car....

thanx in advance....

[edw-R]

I heard some people said: If you use higher octane fuel, you can advance your timing a bit to get a bit of power. Is it right?

[DynoDave]

ok.. good thread....

correct me if i m wrong, if u use higher octane fuel than recommended by Honda, u MUST advance the ignition timing.....

but how come when i use ron98 i feel my car is more responsive and has more power yet i didnt adjust the ignition timing.... and when i use ron95 back, i feel the engine is noisier and heavier....
so do i still need to advance the timing when i m using the ron98 fuel cos i m going to use ron98 fuel on my car....

thanx in advance....
Most of you guys and girls that run the new 98 octane fuel could bump up the timing 2 degrees but unless its done on a dyno to see the results I would not recommend doing this.This will effect your AFR's because moving the timing will also effect the way the engine burns fuel.When I get a chance with the next Honda Im tuning on the dyno I will do a test and post it up to show you the effect that 2 degree's of timing has.
Regards Dyno Dave

[Astro]

dynodave...when u say u will bump up the degrees by 2...are you referring to bumping up the advancment from 16 to 18 degrees?

[iamhappy46]

For Astro,
Yeah, I assume DynoDave is referring to a 2 degree increase.

For Zimp13,
You may find that 95RON fuel even with stock ignition timing is causing your engine to labour by burning less cleanly/efficiently as 98RON. Therefore, you will feel it in the seat of your pants. Advancing the timing should yield a better combustion and result in more power, as already discussed.

Personally, I use 98RON with a few mL's per litre of Toluene(this sh!t causes cancer, do not get liquid on your skin!) mixed in, to get around 103RON.

[Zimp13]

For Astro,
Yeah, I assume DynoDave is referring to a 2 degree increase.

For Zimp13,
You may find that 95RON fuel even with stock ignition timing is causing your engine to labour by burning less cleanly/efficiently as 98RON. Therefore, you will feel it in the seat of your pants. Advancing the timing should yield a better combustion and result in more power, as already discussed.

Personally, I use 98RON with a few mL's per litre of Toluene(this sh!t causes cancer, do not get liquid on your skin!) mixed in, to get around 103RON.

Thanks for the advise iamhappy46....

I ll advance the timing by max 3 degrees i think cos i ve changed to pod filter and has full exhaust system from header to the muffler...... lets c wat happen... heheheh

as for the Toluene, can i get this easily? at autobarn or repco or burson? i ll check it out later..... :D

[edw-R]

I think it has a optium point of the timing. Who know? Different car use different fuel and has different compression.
For the best timing of each car, go to highest timing point that without pinking. That's my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[DynoDave]

dynodave...when u say u will bump up the degrees by 2...are you referring to bumping up the advancment from 16 to 18 degrees?
Yes that is what I was saying take it upto 18 degree's.
Regards Dyno Dave

[Zimp13]

i went to look at the ignition timing laser gun... they are costly... cheapest is $50, up to $100... i dun mind buying one but all of them look so cheap (in quality wise) for that kind of price and there is none like the one in this link http://www.sohchonda.com/ipw-web/bulletin/index.php?pid=5.

someone mentioned in this thread only costs $20.... where can we get them from???
i ve gone to supercheap auto, repco, autobarn....

[saxman]

I think it has a optium point of the timing. Who know? Different car use different fuel and has different compression.
For the best timing of each car, go to highest timing point that without pinking. That's my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong.
usually, you're going to tune timing to best mean torque... that requires a dyno though.

If you advance to the point of detonation, I'd retard by a degree and a half to two for safety reasons.

[string]

usually, you're going to tune timing to best mean torque... that requires a dyno though.

If you advance to the point of detonation, I'd retard by a degree and a half to two for safety reasons.
At least a two degrees... In some cases, there may be MANY degrees of timing between MBTT and knock, and even then, tuners may retard a few degrees from MBTT.

If your not going to use a dyno, timing maps IMO should be very conservative, unless you don't care about your engine. With FI, one knock at high boost/rpm is all it takes and you have a nice hole in your piston, or a lovely bend in your rod.. Nice for a wall ornament, but not for an engine :D

[saxman]

At least a two degrees... In some cases, there may be MANY degrees of timing between MBTT and knock, and even then, tuners may retard a few degrees from MBTT.

If your not going to use a dyno, timing maps IMO should be very conservative, unless you don't care about your engine. With FI, one knock at high boost/rpm is all it takes and you have a nice hole in your piston, or a lovely bend in your rod.. Nice for a wall ornament, but not for an engine :D
yah, I know... my point was that without a dyno, you're kinda shooting in the dark, and going until the point of detonation and stopping there isn't the way

[iamhappy46]

Ignition timing, for most purposes can have base timing advanced by 2 degrees(which is within Honda's specifications) to take advantage of 98 octane fuel. For example, using Toluene, I can advance timing by 4 degrees past my 'SAFE' 98 octane point without suffering knock. Toluene is not an over the counter purchase anymore, we have a few drums stockpiled for personal use only.
Of course using a 'racing brewed' fuel is always going to give a larger power gain with more potential energy from timing adjustments. Nitro-methanol is one of the best with a rating of around 200+ octane and insane power outputs. Shame it requires 6:1 air:fuel rations (very rich miture) at $20 a litre...