200kw B18C

[Shraka]

Hey guys.

Just reading some stuff on here about Quad Throttle bodies and various other modifications. Got me to thinking about a hypothetical engine build. Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna actualy do this (don't have the money) but anyway, how would you guys go about building up a road use 200kw B18C?

I think it start with a B18C2 VTiR block, as most of it would be changed. Get some Quad Throttle bodies on there.
Exhaust system? 2.5inch 4-1 headers, highflow cat etc? or larger?
it'd need a new ECU, I don't know much about those. Wolf perhaps?
I think Type R pistons and rods would do the trick.
Some form of cams. Duration? Lift? They'd have to be VTEC cams for the low end torque.
would it need new valve springs?
A 9000rpm redline and 9300rpm fuel cut would do I think.

That sound like it'd make it to 200kw at the flywheel?

[T-onedc2]

Checkout this thread, should help
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12128&highlight=spec+cams+toda

[BLKCRX]

200kw at the fly wheel hmm well very hard 2 measure that power ;) lol we measure power at the wheels not at the flywheel ;) unless you put your engine on a engine dyno…

Its hard enough to make a type r engine make 200kw at the wheels on 6psi of boost.. trying to do it NA would be almost impossible.
To get close to 150kw you will need much more mods than what you have listed there, and forget about type R rods and pistons they just won’t have the strength / compression that you need to drive super large cams….
Quad TBs won’t give you magically power just a nice midrange gain, and some power up top… you should also look at 4-2-1 headers.. but yeah this is a hypothetical question so in summary the above mods as listed assuming you went with a stage 1/A cam you would be around 130kw at the wheels if your lucky….

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

I have a JDM B18c Spec R with:
Port & Polished head
Mugen 0.6mm Head Gasket
Blueprinted
Modified Racing Oil Sump
Shaved block
Forged Pistons
Knife Edged Crank
Walbro 450HP fuel Pump
JDM Integra Type R 67mm Throttle Body
JDM Integra Type R Intake Manifold
KYO Racing Short Air Intake
Custom JDM 4-1 Racing Headers
2.25 Cat Back Exhaust
High-Flow Cat
Replica Mugen Twin Loop Muffler.

The engine is running a stock ECU, no serious CAMS, stock JDM ITR intake manifold and TB, and no cam gears etc.

I put out 165kw at the fly and i would be quite comfortable in saying it could get 200kw with the addition of: ECU Tuning, ITB's, CAMS and cam gears. Not to mention a massive hole in the wallet too !

Now 200kw@wheels is a challenge but i know some locals who have cracked 200HP on a hub dyno with B18c.

[EfiOz]

It is possible but the last B-series we had that put out 150hp/litre cost nearly 70K!

It can be done, but the spec sheet was about a novel long. The only thing left of the stock engine was the block and head castings and they were naturally heavily modified and only retained due to the category regs.

And there's no way you could have used it on the street!

[tinkerbell]

you need 2 litre displacement as a starting point, the benifit of larger bores will exponentially reduce cost per kW gain...

[tinkerbell]

BTW - if a stock VTiR puts out ~80kW on dyno and Honda claim VTiR = 125kW at fly

then the conversion factor is about 1.5:1

ie if you put out 120kW at wheels -> 180kW at flywheel

so you need 134kW at the wheels to have 'factory equivilent' of 200 flywheel kW

IMO

[BLKCRX]

I think converting power at the wheels to power at the fly wheel and even measuring power is all way to ambiguous, dynos are by far not a absolute means of measuring power at any level, this has been said many times.

When you talk to dyno manufactures such as Dyno Dynamics , DTS and Mainline they all apply a factor of 15% to there Australian made dynos when sold over sea’s in the USA to standardize them against US made dynos such as Dyno Jet and Dyno Pack. So the question must be asked why is there a difference? what is the difference, and who’s readings are correct, sadly there is no international standard for any dyno figures or readings, although there are international corrections such as SAE which account for environmental aspects.

Calculating power from the wheels by times the figure by 1.5 to equate flywheel power might work for one car, but again every car has different gear box ratios, different size wheels different restrictions, and the load on a engine is much higher when measuring power on a roller dyno than that of a engine dyno.

If this would be the case… my little 1.6L engine 400kw at the wheels * 1.5 600kw at the engine, turn that into USA KW makes it 690kw, then turn kw into HP ( divide by 3 and times by 4 ) makes my little engine have 920HP at the engine US standards…. I find that a little hard to believe LOL

Point of all of this, you can’t equate anything, figures mean nothing, unless their back to back on the same dyno measuring difference between two known variables

Regards James

[tinkerbell]

i was just trying to help the initial poster to get an idea of 200kW at the flywheel for his/her particular car - even if it was fairly objectionable rationale, LOL!

but you make very good points James :thumb:

[Civic Type R]

.. and thats why I always try not to get people started on dyno comparisons. James you summed it up perfectly !

[Shraka]

heh, don't worry, I know how inaccurate Dynos are. I was just interested in some hypothetical hi-po N/A figures.

80kw at the wheels sounds wrong. I know it's been tested, but for a FWD to lose 33% of it's power on a dyno? That's more like what a light AWD or RWD should lose. FWDs should be down around 25% shouldn't they? Compare that to my Lancer that made just under 47kw ATW on a crappy old old 4G15 carby, assuming stock power it kept 78% of that power to the wheels.

$70,000? That's crazy! But anyway I guess that's why turbochargers are the go. Not hard to make an SR20DET or 3S-GTE make 200kw at the fly and still keep it driveable on a relativly low budget. Or a 4G63, as they come with 200kw at the fly (or there abouts).

I've been looking aroud these forums, and it seems to me that B series engines don't make very good gainst for cheap, top end wise anyway. Seems honda got them pretty good from factory.

As a side note, how large is the stock VTi-R exhaust? 2in?

[Weq]

u are all compare NA engines to turbo engines.
try and get a SR20DE to 200kw and see how cheap it is :P

[sivic]

on another note: saying there is a certain percentage loss from flywheel to wheels is a bit off as well. this loss is a result of the drivetrain components and the power they require to move/operate. this said, the power they require to operate should be constant due to their mass etc remaining constant and therefore the powerloss through the drivetrain should be constant.
so you can see why percentage/ratio conversions are a bit iffy to measure flywheel kw from wheel kw readings.

[Civic Type R]

In Japan you can buy these crate engines:
SS Works - B18c stroked to 2000cc, + ITB's ~ 260HP = 194kw
JUN - B16A, full JUN internals + ITB's ~ 240HP = 179kw
JUN - B16B stroked to 1842cc, full JUN internals + ITB's ~ 225PS = 168kw
SPOON - B16B stroked to 2000cc ~ 240PS = 179kw

TOP FUEL B18c make a variety of Turbo kits and stroket kits for power up to 380HP = 283kw.

Now remember these are full race engines which run on JDM fuel which is usually 105RON and race ECU maps to utilise the octane effectively.

As for the price im guessing around $15k per engine alone. (I cant fully understand Japanese)

[pgclee]

200Kw at the Flywheel is quite possible for an N/A if you really got that much of money to spend...

some Huge Cams, Uprated Valve springs, TI Valve Retainers, Oversize Valve, Rocker arm, with absolute perfect cam phasing + port - polish - oversize head
Freaking high Compression = 13.0:1 - 14.0:1 compression or higher
Bore up - 84mm max + Con rods
reshape + balanced Crank
Quads or some huge ass TB + Intake
Oversize Extractor with 2.5 inch piping
Individual ignition...
and not to forget, Good ECU ( HKS F-con V pro *Very very expensive* , Motec *very expensive* , Autronic *expensive* etc... ) but anything with a "Pro" word will be expensive..hahaha...

but anyway, if you do so much mods internally, you must also consider the amount of money you need to put in on suspension + braking + Chasis work)

i think this are the main ingredient for HP although there are few more things that those Pro's only know...

with all that stuff listed, it will sure produce 200kw at flywheel, but still, it all depends on Tuning and perfect workmanship...

internally alone it will cost almost 30k-35k incl workmanship, all parts, and tuning...if u wanna include those sus and chasis work, damn, u will be looking around, lets say 10-20k at least) but you will be looking at a crazy lil monster...but there will always be another alternative...get a B16a and put in Full Jun kit - by the way Civic Type R, Jun B16a is 256hp...and Spoon, there is one ITR that is more than 280hp...A class...Top Fuel there is 2 civic, one is 380hp, another is a crazy 550hp...

So, my advice...stay standard...Haha..

[pgclee]

and also, for NA to gain 1.5kw atw = close to 1k Aud...hehehehe...

[Civic Type R]

- by the way Civic Type R, Jun B16a is 256hp...and Spoon, there is one ITR that is more than 280hp...A class...Top Fuel there is 2 civic, one is 380hp, another is a crazy 550hp...

So, my advice...stay standard...Haha..

point taken, but i was only going by whats printed in the JDM magazine next to me. (Printed on 1998)
:)

[tinkerbell]

and also, for NA to gain 1.5kw atw = close to 1k Aud...hehehehe...

maybe at 200kW :rolleyes:

but i can gain 40 normally aspirated kW for $5000 if i want...

ie $125/kW

in fact, i might just go and do that right now...

[Shraka]

Oh yeah? How's that tinkerbell?

Sounds like I'll be leaving my little honda mostly stock. Ha ha. (although, that's what I was gonna do anyway).

[tinkerbell]

most VTiR's = 80ish kW stock.

my B18C2 = 0kW as it has a spun rod bearing

i have jsut obtained a B20B8 block, to which i will add a B16A head,

combined with JDM Type R 4-1 headers, cams, valve springs, IM, TB, adj cam gears, adj FPR and VAFC...

this will hit 120kW and cost around $5000

so from 80 - 120kW = $125/kW

QED.

[pgclee]

yeap tinkerbell...i was just saying the expensive way thats all....

B20b can gain lots of power with low cost....if anyone wants straightline power...or an easy 13's on quartermile...

[Civic Type R]

How does a B20VTEC hybrid affect the cars geometry and weight distribution around the track compared to a B18cR ? Using an EK4 or DC2 ?

[tinkerbell]

B20b can gain lots of power with low cost....if anyone wants straightline power...or an easy 13's on quartermile...


How does a B20VTEC hybrid affect the cars geometry and weight distribution around the track compared to a B18cR ? Using an EK4 or DC2 ?

it doesn’t - pcglee is possibly obliquely referring to the somewhat misguided reliability 'concerns' relating to the B20VTEC as a circuit racer...

[Civic Type R]

We all know how a H22A in a civic goes well in a straight line but is crap around a track etc, I was expecting the B20 being somewhat similar because of its heavier block etc.

[tinkerbell]

I was expecting the B20 being somewhat similar because of its heavier block etc.

WTH?

why on earth is a B20 heavier than a B18?

maybe by about 100 grams due to the 3mm larger pistons, but if you deduct the cylinder bore volume, it might even out...

[Civic Type R]

The Mass of the engine is a better word I should have used.

[tinkerbell]

the Mass of the engines are exactly the same.

[Civic Type R]

Cheers :D

I didnt know that

[pgclee]

but B20b still a cheaper way to gain power comparing to a B18...

[panda[cRx]]

farkness i thought this was a b18c thread -_-

[tinkerbell]

no - it is a 200kW B series thread ;)

[pgclee]

opps...hehehe...sorry...my bad my bad...

yea...200kw for b18c is possible if u got tonnes of cash to play with...but but, i'll just stick with 185kw atm...no more money to play with...hahaha...i'm broke...

[Civic Type R]

opps...hehehe...sorry...my bad my bad...

yea...200kw for b18c is possible if u got tonnes of cash to play with...but but, i'll just stick with 185kw atm...no more money to play with...hahaha...i'm broke...

I know the feeling :cool:

[Shraka]

So I guess my next post should be about what to do to my B series to get some more performance huh? :)

Is anyone in australia using DC2s or B18Cs for track use these days?

[spardikis]

Ronnie Lims integra in NZ, runs pretty quick down the track, although its got one huge ass turbo on it! does any one know what KW at wheels out put that one has??

[tinkerbell]

So I guess my next post should be about what to do to my B series to get some more performance huh? :)



http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12128



Is anyone in australia using DC2s or B18Cs for track use these days?

yes.

[tinkerbell]

sorry... yes, i was... but now building a B20VTEC to repalce my blown B18C2

[Shraka]

If I was gonna go a modified, turbocharged car, I'd get an SR20DET S13. It beats the B series engine in a DC2 in three ways...

1) Comes turbocharged and with larger displacement so less stuffing about.
2) Rear wheel drive, so it's cheaper and easier to get big number down without sacreficing handling.
3) Easy to get access to parts.

[bizee_1]

sorry... yes, i was... but now building a B20VTEC to repalce my blown B18C2
why ? what's wrong with a supercharged B18C2 ? ;) jks


If I was gonna go a modified, turbocharged car, I'd get an SR20DET S13. It beats the B series engine in a DC2 in three ways...

1) Comes turbocharged and with larger displacement so less stuffing about.
2) Rear wheel drive, so it's cheaper and easier to get big number down without sacreficing handling.
3) Easy to get access to parts.

Now that :arrowu: should be in the Forced Induction thread.

[sivic]

only thing is 99% of s13's have been thrashed and are in poop condition.
also doesnt help if you actually want an integra.
anyway, a bit silly comparing a SR20 in a B18c thread. might as well have said a GTR was a better option

[euGeR]

If I was gonna go a modified, turbocharged car, I'd get an SR20DET S13. It beats the B series engine in a DC2 in three ways...

1) Comes turbocharged and with larger displacement so less stuffing about.
2) Rear wheel drive, so it's cheaper and easier to get big number down without sacreficing handling.
3) Easy to get access to parts.

While Turbo's do make more power for less money :) I think it cost more to make a turbo car reliable :D

I guess I've seen more turbo cars side lined at the track than N/A cars.

The advantages of N/A
- engine/throttle response
- reliability - especially under extreme conditions
- linear power curve (for turbo cars, it would depend on the owner and tuning)

and while the turbo has that nice push in the back feel.....
It just doesn't have that N/A scream when your car hits 8,400rpm or even 10k rpm. That alone makes it feel fast enough ;)

Plus, honda just has such a large variety of bling parts.... makes all the nissan folks jealous :D

[Shraka]

Nissans have been thrashed, but if you're talking about building a serious street machine or track car up, you're gonna replace all the stock parts anyway.

I chose N/A 'cuz of economy, ease of use (no having to worry about the turbocharger kicking in at the wrong time) and, most of all, 'cuz driving a DC2 is the most fun I've had behind the wheel of a car. S13s and JZA70s are faster, but just not as fun as 8000rpm. :)

One thing I'm not so keen on is the FWD format. Makes it easier to drive, but I'd still rather a RWD.

Anyway, back on topic.

Do track use, high power B series engines usualy still use VTEC?

[BLKCRX]

the turbo has that nice push in the back feel.....
It just doesn't have that N/A scream when your car hits 8,400rpm or even 10k rpm. That alone makes it feel fast enough ;) :D

Blah my little b16 screams to 11,000rpm when eva it want ;) with 30+psi of boost ... build the BEST NA engine... and add boost and it will be even better ;)

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

Anyway, back on topic.

Do track use, high power B series engines usualy still use VTEC?

Yes :thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

and also no...

[Civic Type R]

I know F1 and other full race engines from Japan used in JGTC dont use VTEC.
Indy use a 2.65l V8 DOHC + TURBOnon VTEC for over 750HP
JGTC500 is Twin Turbo C30
JGTC300 is NA C30 non VTEC i believe

[tinkerbell]

i believe a few of the local IPRA boys have removed their VTEC as well...

[Shraka]

I imagine it'd put more stress on the head ding 11,000 rpm a lot with VTEC on there. So they just go back to a dual lump cam do they? Or do they replace the rockers (or lash adjusters) with a solid peice?

Ofcourse, the ECU would need to be upgraded to deal with not having VTEC.

I wouldn't see much point putting VTEC on a track car. The low cam would only come on at the start of the race and perhaps around a few particularly slow corners (but then, that's what a close ratio box is for).

[tinkerbell]

Ofcourse, the ECU would need to be upgraded to deal with not having VTEC.


well, kinda...

you would have to be running a full aftermarket ECU at this stage anyways...

[Civic Type R]

LOL.. well if you had a full all-out race engine setup, it would be kinda pointless running a stock ECU wouldnt it :D

[The-Genesis]

lol how to i make my euro 200 kw!!

[Shraka]

well, kinda...

you would have to be running a full aftermarket ECU at this stage anyways...
I know, I'm not simple. :P

Anyway, this has entered the rehlms of reality. One of my friends needs a 2.0 or less ltr N/A engine for his racing devision. He wants to put an SR20 in there, but I don't think an SR20 is a good N/A option, so I suggested a B18C. Only problem is, it's a RWD car. The engine spins the wrong way.

He wants to make 150kw at the rear wheels. This is a race only engine so no need to worry about streetability. :D

Thoughts?

[Civic Type R]

Then wack a F20c S2000 engine in.
176kw stock.
Im sure that with some tuning you will get 200kw easily.

However its a 2l and not a B series.

[Shraka]

Then wack a F20c S2000 engine in.
176kw stock.
Im sure that with some tuning you will get 200kw easily.

However its a 2l and not a B series.
Naw, 2.0 is fine. He needs 2.0 or smaller. He'd need more like 220kw to make the kinda power he wants to make at the wheels.

Any idea how much an F20C would cost and how to get them to 220kw? lol.

[sivic]

if he wants 150kw atw he wont need 220kw at the fly. he wont lose 70kw throught the drivetrain.
anyway, this goes back to the at the fly figures from at the wheel figures.
no point in trying to say you will need such and such kw at the fly.
just put it on a dyno and go with what it gets at the wheels.
oh yeah, NA SR20 has no hope of achieving your mates goal.
F20C is best bet.

[Civic Type R]

[Shraka]
I am somewhat amused at how you are placing so much importance on the mythological 200kw figure. Seriously why ?

Where will he be using such a setup ? strip ? track ?
Soon you will realise that HP @ crank or wheels is irrelevant in order to win races.
Sure a modest HP figure is desirable but it can also be a hinderance.

Look at this example.
Motorkhana circuit.
510HP R32 GTSt / GTR conversion
400HP R32 GTR
500HP Series2 RX7, lightened and race modified
350HP XR8
350HP Supra TT
300HP+ Several Nissan Silvias
250HP+ Several WRX
Mazda 3
numerous club cars
150HP Honda Civic / JDM ITR conversion (me)
(all above figures are HP@wheels)

After 9, 50second sprints the Civic had a lead of 16seconds over the nearest rival, that being the R32 GTR calculated from an aggregate of sprints. 150HP Civic wins

Big track.
Same cars.

1st R32 GTR 1.02.5
2nd XR8 1.02.8
3rd Civic 1.03.5
4th Subaru Liberty RS 1.04

Now you tell me the importance of this desperate desire to have 200kw when I proved you dont need high amounts of HP to beat those with much more.

So how about you start focusing on driving techniques, racing lines, tyre physics and understand the geometry of your car on the track and learn its limits.

[tinkerbell]

i was doing 1:15's in my VTiR around wakefield park with only 85kW from a stock B18C2... (beating many more powerful cars)

i imagine i will only knock a tiny 2 seconds off that with a massive 35-40kW increase in power from my B20vtec...

power is not everything (unless you are drag racing ;) )

[h22a accord]

it cost me $93 per kilowatt for the power upgrade on my accord.

[Civic Type R]

Tinkerbell, dont you just love the looks on the faces of those Turbo drivers when a little underpowered NA Honda beats them over and over again. :D

[Shraka]

I'm asking about engines as this is what I know about. I wanted to know what 200kw means to a B series engine. It means racing engine. I know what it means to various other engines, I was just curious, you don't have to jump down my throat.

I'm not obsessed with power, otherwise I wouldn't have an Integra VTi-R would I? I'd have a Silvia, Commodore V8, or something.

My friend (who currently races) wants to get an SR20DE as this is what the race leaders in his devision are using. I wanted to look into other alternatives for his powerplant as I don't think there is enough support for N/A Nissans. I'm sure he knows what he's doing when it comes to suspension work, and I can't help him there as I don't know enough about old RWDs. I know about modern cars and engines, which is where he wants to source his powerplant.

If you're not gonna be helpfull 'Civic Type R' may I suggest you just leave me to help my mate out in peace?

[tinkerbell]

My friend (who currently races) wants to get an SR20DE as this is what the race leaders in his devision are using. I wanted to look into other alternatives for his powerplant as I don't think there is enough support for N/A Nissans. I'm sure he knows what he's doing when it comes to suspension work, and I can't help him there as I don't know enough about old RWDs. I know about modern cars and engines, which is where he wants to source his powerplant.

If you're not gonna be helpfull 'Civic Type R' may I suggest you just leave me to help my mate out in peace?

no offence, but you are the one posting on a public forum...

plus, when you first post with:


Got me to thinking about a hypothetical engine build. Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna actualy do this (don't have the money) but anyway, how would you guys go about building up a road use 200kw B18C?

you have obviously mislead us to the purpose of the discussion... ie not hypothetical, and not for ROAD use :wave:

also - if your mate has a Nissan - it probably needs.............


drumroll please...............


a Nissan engine!


:arrowl: unsubscribes from thread.

[Civic Type R]

WORD. :thumbsup:

[Shraka]

Firstly, I don't expect to be hassled just for posting on a forum. I think that's just common courtesy.

Secondly, I haven't misled you in any way. I found out yesterday my mate wanted an engine for his car. Perhaps I shoulda made a new post as not to confuse you. Before that, it was hypothetical, and it was for road use.

Thirdly, he doesn't have a Nissan. He has a Toyota.
Haven’t you ever heard of those guys putting SR20DETs in Toyotas (happens heaps), there is also a guy who just put a 1UZ-FE Toyota V8 into his S13 180sx. It’s called an engine conversion.

And lastly, Civic Type R, still not helping.

[pgclee]

is this a honda thingy or some nissan's wanna have a run?...hmm....i'm confuse...

why people wanna bully a car which has much lower CC?? example...me? all those nissan or what ever like to pick on me...why why why???????

[Civic Type R]

This thread has gone in far too many directions and even i dont know why im typing because i dont know what question im answering.
Someone apply thread lock please.

[sivic]

ok lets make this easy. 200kw B18C? turbo it.
question answered.
hypotheticals = stupid.
they allow stupid tangents of topic

[defect]

your not gonna get 200kw from NA, unless you got lots of money.
Turbo it :D <--

[tekung89]

200kw at the fly? why not go a K build and work from there lol. i honestly dont think a B is capable of 200kw at the fly unless u own an oil company haha but yeh prove me wrong =)

[Limbo]

your not gonna get 200kw from NA, unless you got lots of money.
Turbo it :D <--


agreed. Its gona cost alot NA. Cheaper option would be turbo

[hayashi_1986]

Way to bring back an old thread lol Yes, it's very hard to make 200kw atw with the B18C...NA.

[trism]

how did this go from 200at the fly, to 200 at the wheels?

theres a good 50kw difference

[chunky]

sounds interesting
i wish someone could actually do it


no offence, but you are the one posting on a public forum...

plus, when you first post with:



you have obviously mislead us to the purpose of the discussion... ie not hypothetical, and not for ROAD use :wave:

also - if your mate has a Nissan - it probably needs.............


drumroll please...............


a Nissan engine!


:arrowl: unsubscribes from thread.

LMFAO
hahahahaa

[bennjamin]

hahahahah closed