b18c head

[rainy dayz]

ok yes i am new here but before you flame me and tell me to search i tried and i didnt find anything helpful

basically i have been reading on the 'poor mans type r' with b18c head on b16a and i was thinking of doing this on my EK.

how much would i be looking at for the head?
would i need to change the intake manifold?

thanks for yor help guys :thumbsup:

[rainy dayz]

yeah sorry it posted it before i had finished typing.

i have read about this in regard to type R head, but would a vtir head work too?

i am interested in the price/performance between the 2

[barefootbonzai]

welcome man, but you got it the wrong way around. You need a B16 head on a B18 block.

[panda[cRx]]

yeah was about to say the same thing lol

afaik changing to a b18cr head wouldn't give much of a performance increase as its pretty similar to the b16a head (hey feel free correct me if i'm wrong lol)

as far as a vtir head u'd prolly be better off with the b16a head.

as for prices i'm not sure but i'll have a b18c head up for sale so0on ;)

[TODA AU]

B18C2 cyl head works really well for high rpm. ;)

[spardikis]

look at the civic delsol gen2 (b16a2) head as it has pretty good (nearly the same as type-r) flow properties but a little less comp than the b18c. Also with the poor mans type-r look at your bottom end reliability....
balancing internals, different rod bolts and rods, oil reliefe valves, etc etc.... It's pretty hyped up and good if done properly, but look at the negatives as well. Its probably cheaper and more reliable just to go for the vtir bottom end with civic del sol head-combo. then thin gasket to rais comp.

[tinkerbell]

B18C2 cyl head works really well for high rpm. ;)

why?

[Chi]

B18C2 cyl head works really well for high rpm. ;)

Yes im wondering too, Charlie @ GPC told me similar thing, but wouldnt explain to me why, He just said it is dont ask why!

[revNhevN]

heres my theory. i have read all type-r heads hand ported and polished by honda to flow better. put on a 1.6L b16a, i guess you would only see gains at higher revs where unristicted flow is more important.

type-r head = b16a that has been ported and polished by honda, is this correct?

[spardikis]

that was my impression

[ProECU]

im thinking size of port runners & angle and valve configuration

[Jase EK]

Im After A Head Too

[ginganggooly]

why?
i've been told this by several people who's opinions i actually trust. something to do with it being a down-draft design...
i'll be tacking on of them on the b20.

[tinkerbell]

angle of the ports?

yeah, that is what i thought, thanks for confirming...

does it need to be ported to take advantage of this, or is it 'better' stock?

[z3lda]

look at the civic delsol gen2 (b16a2) head as it has pretty good (nearly the same as type-r) flow properties but a little less comp than the b18c. Also with the poor mans type-r look at your bottom end reliability....
balancing internals, different rod bolts and rods, oil reliefe valves, etc etc.... It's pretty hyped up and good if done properly, but look at the negatives as well. Its probably cheaper and more reliable just to go for the vtir bottom end with civic del sol head-combo. then thin gasket to rais comp.

whats a civic del sol gen 2

[tinkerbell]

american name for EG CRX

[Chi]

american name for EG CRX

Um, i think he was referring ot teh generation 2 statement.

AS there wasnt a gen 2 del sol

[spardikis]

well corect me if im wrong, but im sure they are a 2nd gen engine??? thats what i have been led to believe... but any way its the pr3-2 head i was refering to


and i meant 'CRX' del sol not civic! my bad...

[tinkerbell]

yeah, the wording was bad, but you did say "gen2 head"

which, for the record, is exactly the same casting as a gen1 B16A head...

the basic diff., between gen 1 and gen 2 B16A engines is pistons and valvetrain...

[hondar]

ok yes i am new here but before you flame me and tell me to search i tried and i didnt find anything helpful

basically i have been reading on the 'poor mans type r' with b18c head on b16a and i was thinking of doing this on my EK.

how much would i be looking at for the head?
would i need to change the intake manifold?

thanks for yor help guys :thumbsup:

all parts need to work harmoniously together. imho, it is better off getting a used type r engine.

sure doing and assembling yourself is a lot of fun but if you dont know what you are doing and dont know much abt internals and doing all the prep work, you might cost you more in the end.

intake manifold? why do people change it? becos it effect the peak torque of your engine. the shorter it is (as in type r IM vs B16A), it placed the peak torque at higher band of the rpm.

is it useful? yes if you spend a lot of time at high end esp if you racing. when u race, ure always almost at red line so it is good for you that you are at your peak torque band.

having said that, you need a matching gearbox that will support engine characteristic.

so imho if you dont know whats happening, just get a used type r engine and fit it with proper gearbox and save you a lot of headache.

open to comment. :D

[TODA AU]

B18C2 + B16A cylinder head with no piston change = low compression slug.

[tinkerbell]

yes, a masssive 9.8:1 cr slug, lol!

but a B18C2 + B16A head with B16A pistons = high compression "poor man's Type R" @ 11:1 cr

have a play here kiddies : http://www.bojangs.com/calculator/

[spardikis]

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

heres annother one as well...

[daishin]

Yep - down draft design + rpm > 10k (think about ignition lag time and what happens past 10k - theres a good SAE paper on it) added with the extra tumble of the B18 head and you have a winner.

Less than 10k and the B16 head has better flow/turblence characteristics.

[string]

Yep - down draft design + rpm > 10k (think about ignition lag time and what happens past 10k - theres a good SAE paper on it) added with the extra tumble of the B18 head and you have a winner.

Less than 10k and the B16 head has better flow/turblence characteristics.
Well I hardly think anyone revving to over 10,000 will be using a stock ignition system, let along a distributor! So i'm sure that your not going to run into problems with an msd box...

[Illegal]

I have the set up you are refering to. I did a b16a2 head on a 98 b18c1 block. I bored it over to 82mm then put in the stock crank and rods with the b16a2 pr3 pistons. I have about a 11.5 compression ratio. I also use a skunk 2 intake manifold, 4-1 jdm type-r 2.5 ich collectored header, and a b16 tranny. (the trannys are almost exactly identical in gear ratio's.) next is to add in the lsd.

The head is almost the same as stated before, the itr head is gone over ONCE for smothing at honda. That is all. A little less turbulance, but by no means ported or polished. The sizes are the same. They are both still the pr3 head. I have a pr3-3 because mine is the 00 si head. (USDM) This set up is nice, and with propper tuneing you can just about get to 185whp-200whp and 135-145 tourque.

[tinkerbell]

I bored it over to 82mm then put in the stock crank and rods with the b16a2 pr3 pistons.


ummm, i am not calling bullshit or anything, but i was not aware that honda made anything over 81.5mm pistons?

AFAIK - they make 81.25 and 81.5 oversize, but not 82mm...

[Illegal]

yep stock as well.

[tinkerbell]

but honda does not make 82mm B16A pistons???

[Illegal]

well I can get them here in the us just like I can 81mm. They carry 81 - 81.5 and 82

What I should have gotten is the jdm ctr 82mm pistons. MUCH higher compression!

[tinkerbell]

you can get 82mm B16A pistons? are they made by an aftermarket company?

because Honda Motor Co does not sell them...

[Illegal]

yeah come to think of it they were aftermarket copies, ($150 U.S.) but I was under the impression here in the U.S. we can still get them from the dealer that size.

[tinkerbell]

yeah - in the factory manuals i can only find reference to B series pistons being available in 81.25mm oversize, not even 81.5mm

yours MUST be aftermarket ones...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/sparefiles/b-series%20pistons.jpg

[Illegal]

I'll check on it tomorrow and let you know what i find out from this end.

[spardikis]

in regards to fitting CTR pistons into your b18c block/B16a head combo.. I have a b18c2 block and pistons ready to be fitted but people keep talking about clearances and how I need to check them to avoid piston meeting Valve = engine death senerio... My Queston is - If I go ahead and fit them (of course with new rods/bearings) will this actually happen, where is the safe limit for high comp Pistons or do U need to be running Bspec or C spec camshafts for piston to meet valve = engine blow up?? Anyone know what the go is cause im stumped..

[Illegal]

the deck height is fine, it will fit. NOW, with the compression being that high, you will have pinging with the stock cams and that high of compression (12+) so you need a big cam, like a skunk2 stage 2.

[tinkerbell]

in regards to fitting CTR pistons into your b18c block/B16a head combo.. I have a b18c2 block and pistons ready to be fitted but people keep talking about clearances and how I need to check them to avoid piston meeting Valve = engine death senerio... My Queston is - If I go ahead and fit them (of course with new rods/bearings) will this actually happen, where is the safe limit for high comp Pistons or do U need to be running Bspec or C spec camshafts for piston to meet valve = engine blow up?? Anyone know what the go is cause im stumped..

can you 'clay' the clearances yourself?

it is fairly easy and will give you peace of mind:

place blutac in the valve reliefs and put a used head gasket on:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/claying/10aug.009.jpg

swap the VTEC pistons in the rocker arms over so that one valve is in VTEC all the time (you can do just one cylinder)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/claying/10aug.004.jpg

then put the head on, torque it to specs, put the cams in and put the timing belt on:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/claying/10aug.013.jpg

crank the crankshaft around a few times (so that the piston beign 'clayed' is at TDC at least 2 or 3 times) and then remove teh head and see what happend:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/claying/10aug.014.jpg

then you can measure with a metal rule how much clearance you have:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/claying/10aug.015.jpg

if you are using adjustable cam gears, set them to full advance for the intake and full retard for the exhaust, (but if you are quite fearful of piston to valve contact, start at maybe half advance and work your way to full advnance (or vica versa)...)

[tinkerbell]

BTW - it is said that you need ~35 thou of an inch clearance... or ~0.75mm ...

[spardikis]

Thanks tinkerbell that was a great pic up on claying and will do that once i have the pistons/rods in place, was just wondering if there was anything I coud do before I actually install them, you see when i first started that project i was like whoo hoo ctr pistons"rushofbloodtohead" and brought them, then did some more research... dumdom...so now im wonderin if i should sell them and get some forgirs or ITR pistons or is it safe to stick with them... im sure it will be fine though??????

[tinkerbell]

my instinct says will be fine, as it *sounds* like you are simply building a factory CTR spec engine,

ie same block, same head, same pistons, same cams... just different crank and rods...

but logically, why would this matter if the deck height (as Illegal has already said) is the same :)

[spardikis]

that is what I thought and what my boy's in NZ think is fine as welll, but every "internet bandit" that I had spoken to in the past just said nah cant be done u have to check the clearances.. I just needed some peace of mind - Initially it will just be CTR spec, but ill be using eagle rods and there is a good possiblity that ill run some skunky's or toda B specs. The other thing being u dont want to go and buy the gear and then not be able to use it!!

[Illegal]

I got it in mine with no problems! My cam gears are set also (not at zero) and I have skunk 2 stage 2 cams and again, no worries

[dsp26]

OK.. gonna bump this with a slightly irrelevant question...

LS/VTEC option has fallen back in my radar... it seems the the difference between B16a2(1595cc) and B18A/B(1834cc) is 239cc therefore 14.98% increase in displacement and therefore under the NSW modification 15% rule therefore no engineering required...

I will be using a GE kit instead of tapping block/head etc for oil lines so thats covered....

I am aware this block won't rev past 8krpm too great due to bore/stroke ratio but what is unclear in my research is what i need to change.

Just rods/bearings? or is there anything else i should while i'm there...

According to this:
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/lsvtec/lsvtec2a.html

my resulting CR will be 11.7:1 if i transfer my pistons over which i think would work well with Skunk2S2/TodaB/etc spec'd camshafts....

my other options are to use non oem "Stage 1" type spec cams like Skunk1s/TodaA and lower rev limit to 8000-ish..... according to my dyno my b16 cams already start dipping around 7,800rpm anyway....

OR

does anyone have a B18C2 shortblock so i can be done with this quicker :p


OVERALL, the plan is to buy a B20Z block for my mrs GSI teg and i take the B18B and everyones happy...

[fatboyz39]

If you search around the forums, tu88y had a LS/vtec which pumped out 116kw atw. Nothing special was in the motor, b16a pistons, p72 head, ITR cams, stock manifold, ITR JDM 4-1 headers, ECU and tune.

[dsp26]

If you search around the forums, tu88y had a LS/vtec which pumped out 116kw atw. Nothing special was in the motor, b16a pistons, p72 head, ITR cams, stock manifold, ITR JDM 4-1 headers, ECU and tune.

got most of that already minus the block and ecu.. hoping i can run the jdm p30 rom fine.

the bit i wanted clarified was the rods... naturally with internet posts theres misguided info.

the rod part, my researc lead me to believe that:
- Rods are weak and can't handle 8krpm+
OR
- like the crvtec b20 frank, it was the rod bolts that was holding it back due to the 1.54 R/S ratio that made the oem ones bend...

so which is it? i need to replace rods or just the bolts?

i don't mind not being able to rev past 8krpm as the purpose for this is lowend power anyway...

will look for tu88ys thread in the meantime... thanks

[tinkerbell]

do the rod bolts.

[aramiK]

I've also heard that the b18c2 head works better then the b18cr head for worked engines - IE , engines with work done to the block.. and cams etc for the head.

Is this correct?

[dsp26]

do the rod bolts.

Thanks, all i needed :)

[fatboyz39]

got most of that already minus the block and ecu.. hoping i can run the jdm p30 rom fine.

the bit i wanted clarified was the rods... naturally with internet posts theres misguided info.

the rod part, my researc lead me to believe that:
- Rods are weak and can't handle 8krpm+
OR
- like the crvtec b20 frank, it was the rod bolts that was holding it back due to the 1.54 R/S ratio that made the oem ones bend...

so which is it? i need to replace rods or just the bolts?

i don't mind not being able to rev past 8krpm as the purpose for this is lowend power anyway...

will look for tu88ys thread in the meantime... thanks

best is to get a tunable ecu, crome hondata.

change the rod bolts. stock rods can handle 8500 rpm.

The LS rods are the same as B20 rods. Change the rod bearings to the ITR ones. Add headstuds if budget permits.

[barefootbonzai]

I've also heard that the b18c2 head works better then the b18cr head for worked engines - IE , engines with work done to the block.. and cams etc for the head.

Is this correct?

No it's not correct.

Only time a b18c2 head is gonna perform better than an ITR head is if it has been ported right which cost $$.

[aramiK]

No it's not correct.

Only time a b18c2 head is gonna perform better than an ITR head is if it has been ported right which cost $$.

Really? Hmm, so what was all that other talk in this thread about the advantages of the b18c2 head?

Highjacking topic now but, if I'm building a high power b18c build, should I look into getting the type R head and doing the cams for that etc?

Someone told me the b18c2 provides much higher compression etc?

[fatboyz39]

Really? Hmm, so what was all that other talk in this thread about the advantages of the b18c2 head?

Highjacking topic now but, if I'm building a high power b18c build, should I look into getting the type R head and doing the cams for that etc?

Someone told me the b18c2 provides much higher compression etc?

Yeah slapping a P72 head will raise the comp 0.7 ?

[aramiK]

I have no idea? I'm asking not telling...

Just looooking for adviceeeeeeeeeeee yooooooooooooo!

[dsp26]

I have no idea? I'm asking not telling...

Just looooking for adviceeeeeeeeeeee yooooooooooooo!

lol... he was telling.. the "?" at the end of his post was a typo... love t3h internetz

[fatboyz39]

im not sure how much comp it'll raise. either 0.7 or 1.7

[aramiK]

Ok so dose that mean for overall use if your going to be port/polishing, cams, springs etc etc the head will be better for P72 or P3 XD

[dudeling7]

pretty sure its to do with the different size and shape of the quench pads on the two different heads. a gsr/b18c2 head will raise the compression slightly because of this characteristic.

[aramiK]

But does that make it a BETTER head to work? ???

[string]

pretty sure its to do with the different size and shape of the quench pads on the two different heads. a gsr/b18c2 head will raise the compression slightly because of this characteristic.

The GSR head raises compression due to the small combustion chamber volume. The quench pads exist due to the shape of the combustion chamber and other than reducing the head plane CC area, has no bearing on CC volume.

[fatboyz39]

Worked Pr3 vs a worked P72 = Worked Pr3 wins.

[trism]

what about in the case of a b20vtec build?

assuming the entire bottom end is built, what would be the best head?

[CRXer]

I usually see most people prefer to start work on the P72 head ,mainly due to cost of the head & also the quench pads ability to ward off detonation better than the PR3 heads.

[dsp26]

best is to get a tunable ecu, crome hondata.

change the rod bolts. stock rods can handle 8500 rpm.

The LS rods are the same as B20 rods. Change the rod bearings to the ITR ones. Add headstuds if budget permits.

thanks for that... got all the parts i need listed and available minus the block.

just wanna clarify though.. i've searched a few suppliers for the itr rod bearings (ACL brand primarily), are you confident they fit on the b18b rods/crank? all suppliers i found had a separate listing for B18A/B and B18C. On B18A/B listings they state that they do not fit any B18c series??

Same with the ARP head studs... B18c is 208-4303 and B18a/b is 208-4302

[fatboyz39]

thanks for that... got all the parts i need listed and available minus the block.

just wanna clarify though.. i've searched a few suppliers for the itr rod bearings (ACL brand primarily), are you confident they fit on the b18b rods/crank? all suppliers i found had a separate listing for B18A/B and B18C. On B18A/B listings they state that they do not fit any B18c series??

Same with the ARP head studs... B18c is 208-4303 and B18a/b is 208-4302

With the ITR bearing you need to modify the rods abit to fit them bearings. Not hard at all.

As for the APR head studs, i can't remember what we used.

ever thought of going to a b20 as opposed to b18b?

[dsp26]

With the ITR bearing you need to modify the rods abit to fit them bearings. Not hard at all.

As for the APR head studs, i can't remember what we used.

ever thought of going to a b20 as opposed to b18b?

Should I PM you regarding the details or would you be able to post the details here regarding the modification.. would be much appreciated :)

ARP studs, since neither set will fit both block/head from the look of things i get this feeling i should be modding the block which from memory of the b20 swaps stud holes had to be made bigger or something?

B20 would be ideal but i don't want the hassle of engineering, B16a to B18b displacement difference is 14.98% and is blue-slippable :D

[Benson]

Should I PM you regarding the details or would you be able to post the details here regarding the modification.. would be much appreciated :)

ARP studs, since neither set will fit both block/head from the look of things i get this feeling i should be modding the block which from memory of the b20 swaps stud holes had to be made bigger or something?

B20 would be ideal but i don't want the hassle of engineering, B16a to B18b displacement difference is 14.98% and is blue-slippable :D

No need to modify the holes for headstud. Search on honda-tech.

[tinkerbell]

the b18b bearings are 2mm wider than b18c ones.

use B18C head studs, use B18B rod bolts.

[dsp26]

the b18b bearings are 2mm wider than b18c ones.

use B18C head studs, use B18B rod bolts.

so.. simple matter of getting bearings machined 2mm?


this is going to be pretty easy espesh with the GE kit...

i'll find a thread dedicated to this setup and update with the required info for requirements you gents have posted.... too much research involved from US forums and is obviously off-topic to this thread.. sorry :/

[tinkerbell]

pm me if you have q's...

as for bearings, just use b18b ones! they are designed for it!

i left my b20 bearings alone...

[89lude]

If you search around the forums, tu88y had a LS/vtec which pumped out 116kw atw. Nothing special was in the motor, b16a pistons, p72 head, ITR cams, stock manifold, ITR JDM 4-1 headers, ECU and tune.

116 with stock ls gearbox? or itr box? thanks

[tinkerbell]

great use of the PM system there!