Finding Good tuners...

[pgclee]

actually until now, i've only seen one other Vtec that can Rev pass 10k rpm (using Toda C as well - output is 130ish kw ATW)...i wonder where is the other good tuner gone to and yet there are so many Toda's and Jun's around, all end up at ard 9000ish rpm...hmmm...i wonder why...

for a B16B cams, what kinda Max RPM output and hp you Tuners think can get?? mind if i ask you Adrian from Toda? or any one? since you all have alot of experience in this field...i am just curious...thats all...Do not just assume...know what you are talking...

i'm just hunting for good tuners...
if a person can tell me this, and why, they might know honda well....

[panda[cRx]]

pm weezer, i think he is running similar mods to what u mentioned (toda c's, 10krpm)

[weezer]

']pm weezer, i think he is running similar mods to what u mentioned (toda c's, 10krpm)

My motor CAN, but doesnt rev to 10Krpm
There is a difference

[ek004]

My motor CAN, but doesnt rev to 10Krpm
There is a difference

meh your car sux vinh :P

Back to your question, I think you might wanna provide a little more detail about your engine as a whole (I dont think cams will dictate how high and far you can rev your motor, there are many other factors - correct me if im wrong), that way Adrian can give you a better answer.

[pgclee]

do what ever you like...but no changing of any internal parts....lets say...on a B16a or b..

[euro1978]

Does being able to make a car rev past 10,000 define a good tuner ?

I would say a tuner who can develop more power at a lower RPM would also be a good tuner ?

[Weq]

if u run a motec talk to the guys at croyden. ive seen a turbo b16a with toda c's and 11000~rpm that he did. it ran 130mph

[BLKCRX]

Tuning a car electronically – EFI Vs Mechanically Tuning – What makes power
Tuning a car electronically, there is in particular 3 or 4 very important things to tune a car electronically for, those being when looking at EFI tuning.
http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=391


Have a read of the above artical, that i wrote up ;-)

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=391#post391

Tuning a car electronically, there is in particular 3 or 4 very important things to tune a car electronically for, those being when looking at EFI tuning.

H D and B Honda engines = Fuel, Ignition and Vtec cross over point (plus Secondary intake runner on some engines)

K Honda engines = Fuel, Ignition, Vtec Cross over point and Cam Angle

Sure there are other factors that effect drivability and slight power increases, such as fuel trim’s, injector sizing, overall fuel trim, cranking fuel trim, throttle tip in trim, cylinder fuel trim, cold start post fuel adjustment, rev limits, launch control, full throttle shift, vtec lower and upper boundary’s, idle speed, idle vs coolend temperature, idle control, calibrating map sensors, close loop, open loop, target narrow and target wide band voltages, air temp compensation, water temp compensation, gear compensation, and believe me the list of drive ability tuning factors goes on and on, these factors 90% of the time don’t effect maximum power, but are very much the factors which separate a good tune from a bad tune, drivability, fuel economy, response. Hardly any of these settings can be set accurately set by spending 1 or 2 hours on the dyno, you need to spend hours upon hours or even days on the road, in real life situations calibrating each and every engine for the above dynamics for all conditions, and know the product and the engine like the back of your hand. Knowledge is everything.

So what’s the point of all of this, the basic tuning parameters Fuel, Ignition and Vtec, are the most important aspects of tuning, BUT to tune these factors correctly your engine MUST be mechanical tuned optimally and perfectly!!! Your engine modifications must match each other in every possible way especially when your chasing high rpm high power and starching for every last KW the combination of parts must be perfect. The smallest things like spark plugs/gaps, intake length can affect an engine output dramatically. Not to mention major factors like engine health, compression, and clearances etc.

If an engine is not making power after 9000rpm and is “curling” over dramatically like lots of engines do, then I would question the build combination, or the mechanically tuned parameters, such as valve clearance, cam overlap etc especially if the engine is meant to make power till 10,000rpm. Not even the best tuner in the world can turn a poorly built and designed engine into something specially. The combination has to be correct to begin with.

Summary, build it perfectly, tune it perfectly and the results will be satisfying, skimp on any area and the results could be disappointing. You can’t turn water into wine, unless your God.

Regards James

[ProECU]

hehe, erm its one thing to quote all the features of your hondata software James and another thing to actually do it. LOL

You also forgot individual cylinder trim.

There are also some other ramping technicues which "can" simulate road tuning, but im sure you know these.

haha, James, i'm just in the mood to bitch today.


btw: nice web resource you got going there....

[BLKCRX]

hehe, erm its one thing to quote all the features of your hondata software James and another thing to actually do it. LOL

You also forgot individual cylinder trim.

There are also some other ramping technicues which "can" simulate road tuning.

haha, James, i'm just in the mood to bitch today.

I recommend getting it tuned in Japan,... for JDM bragging rights , LOL

LOL Evan u trouble stirer ;-) down boy... good boy.. now stay ! now woof !
Yes tuning extra features on any tuning device takes time time and more time, plus knowledge.

But yes I ment individual cylinder trim ;-) actually a motec m800 should do most of all the above features also ;) over all trim is cylinder’s trim, individual is “cylinder trim” notice no “s” ;)

But either way if the whole point is if its not mechanically perfect your trying to put out a fire with fuel !

Yes even here in Melb I sometimes use a dyno which simulates temperature humidity, water content, conditions in a completely sealed room, it’s a full on wind tunnel room and which brings you one step closer to real life, but the best real life simulation is real life its self. Not to mention ramp'ing
Techniques but the point of everything = to do anything correctly takes time and more time and knowledge
Regards James

[ProECU]

just call me Evans, lol, with an S

[BLKCRX]

hmmmm S !! LOL

hmmm talking of S's the Honda Type S hmm very nice car ;)

Supercharger also starts with a S I can't wait 2 install a supercharger on a DC5 tomorrow in QLD I haven’t been this excited for a long time, such a busy next few days planed, I hope I find some Hot QLD chic’s that I can tune all night long also ;-) Ill advance her ignition until there’s no tomorrow and she blow !

Regards James

[ProECU]

hillarious, stay away from miss palmer

[panda[cRx]]

damn spammers lol

[Steer^Gimic]

pgclee must this be a test of how high your car can rev? what do you do with your car? does it involve top end or is mid-range more important?

in my opinion, a good tuner makes do with what he's got, not how high he can make it go. anyone can do that.

i just think the term 'good' means efficient, precise and smooth. not so much making a 11k animal.

[Limbo]

There is no use to make the car rev high if your engine can't last.
I built a car that reved up to 10K it was a 20v 4age, and it was good for a short period then i started running into trouble as the high revving ended up killing the engine and my piston ring started leaking....

Ended up selling the car cos it was gonna cost too much to rebuild. Like the guys say make sure you build it properly to take the revs you want. Also the higher you wanna rev the more $$$ you gotta put in.

Any aftermarket computer(with mapping up till 10k) taking out the rev limiter can make your car rev till 10k, just a matter if the engine will hold together

[ek004]

do what ever you like...but no changing of any internal parts....lets say...on a B16a or b..

if its on a b16b leave it where honda set it.

[pgclee]

B16b can goes up to 200hp if you know what ya doing..and it's STANDARD...rev is definately more than 9000rpm...Look at N1 races...i guess there is no point of saying this...Croydon is good, but very pricey...they wanted to charge me 15-20hrs on Dyno...i guess i won't do that...more than 3k including taking apart and putting in the engine again...but for me to reach another 10KW atw, i won't pay that kinda money, although i know N/A pays alot of money to gain that little power...haha..

[Civic Type R]

My motor CAN, but doesnt rev to 10Krpm
There is a difference
Same here :thumbsup:

[Weq]

B16b can goes up to 200hp if you know what ya doing..and it's STANDARD...rev is definately more than 9000rpm...Look at N1 races...i guess there is no point of saying this...Croydon is good, but very pricey...they wanted to charge me 15-20hrs on Dyno...i guess i won't do that...more than 3k including taking apart and putting in the engine again...but for me to reach another 10KW atw, i won't pay that kinda money, although i know N/A pays alot of money to gain that little power...haha..

yes sir. that is alot of money for 10kw!!

[ProECU]

What has become of this ozhonda community? Everyone is so fixated on peak kW or HP figures.
It seems we have become dyno junkies.

I would much rather a lower redline, fatter torque EARLY, and same peak power as before, and i guarantee you i'd still whip your 10k screamer with an extra 10kW peak power.

I think we need some more technical articles on this site.. when I get time, i'll start the ball rolling with some test data to back it all up.

I'm growing concerned that peak power is targeted at the expense of driveability.

Anyone else share these thoughts?

[pgclee]

Try me...Haha...

you are assuming HONDA can produce Damn alot of Torque huh...I'm just a small lil B16b dude...

i also assume you have a B16 that is really outputting that MUCH of BIG FAT TORQUE huh...i wonder how much of torque you have...18.5?? 20.2?? or 24.0??or 40.0??..hahahaha...

u can have all the say you want...if u win me, you're good, but if you lose you better not say anything bout honda anymore dude...




I would much rather a lower redline, fatter torque EARLY, and same peak power as before, and i guarantee you i'd still whip your 10k screamer with an extra 10kW peak power.

?

[ProECU]

ok dude.

you obviously have issues.

[Civic Type R]

What has become of this ozhonda community? Everyone is so fixated on peak kW or HP figures.
It seems we have become dyno junkies.

I would much rather a lower redline, fatter torque EARLY, and same peak power as before, and i guarantee you i'd still whip your 10k screamer with an extra 10kW peak power.

I think we need some more technical articles on this site.. when I get time, i'll start the ball rolling with some test data to back it all up.

I'm growing concerned that peak power is targeted at the expense of driveability.

Anyone else share these thoughts?

Evan I do agree with you.
When i ran the Mugen N1 ECU it pulled so much harder and was noticeable stronger thru the midrange rpm over the stock ECU. At the end of the day the hp at redline was very similar to stock but it had a very different driving feel.

Yeah sure high HP is great but for my application on the track and or daily driving where we dont get to use the top 500rpm, peak redline figures mean nothing.

[pgclee]

What ever...
have a go with me if you want to ... there is nothing to lose for me... i wonder will you bring a 850kg car then..hmmm....very excited...Hmm....-* Wondering *- ...



ok dude.

you obviously have issues.

[ProECU]

Come to Adelaide, Sept-10th Mallala track day and we'll sort it out then !

[Civic Type R]

Evan, what can you do for me using a stock OBD2 Civic VTiR ecu to run my JDM ITR motor ?

here is the dyno test comparing the 3 ECU's i had.
1. Mugen N1 Race ECU - Blue line
2. JDM 98 ITR ECU - green line
3. Civic VTiR ECU - red line

Its also worth looking at the A/F ratios too :thumbsup:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1182&stc=1

[Civic Type R]

btw, all ecu's were plug and play and run within 2 mins of each other on the rollers

[wynode]

I'm growing concerned that peak power is targeted at the expense of driveability.

Anyone else share these thoughts?

But does having a good peak HP value at a high RPM mean that drivability IS sacrificed?

Or is the nature of tuning for high RPM power such that you have to sacrifice a significant amount of power in the mid-lower rev range?

(hope that made sense)

[wynode]

What ever...
have a go with me if you want to ... there is nothing to lose for me... i wonder will you bring a 850kg car then..hmmm....very excited...Hmm....-* Wondering *- ...
Mate, hows about we have some constructive discussions as opposed to a 'my car is faster' type of argument.

[ProECU]

Good question.

we need to define "HIGH" rpm.
typically a stock setup, stock cams, stock redline etc you can gain in all areas of the band.

when you start to talk about making power around 10k+ (and all breathing requirements aside) usually cam profiles sacrifise low-mid power/torque as to obtain a smooth transition from the low cam onto the high cam for the sake of valve train component life.

Compare a Toda C vs stock ITR in the mid-range and tell me which makes more power.

My Initial comment RE: targeting high rpm power relates to bragging rights at the expense of not properly tuning light-mid loads, and the transient response from vacuum to atmosphere.


But does having a good peak HP value at a high RPM mean that drivability IS sacrificed?

Or is the nature of tuning for high RPM power such that you have to sacrifice a significant amount of power in the mid-lower rev range?

My Initial comment RE: targeting high rpm power relates to

(hope that made sense)

[ProECU]

OBD2 ECU's are not programmable without some great expense, so if you had to choose between the below, stick with option 2 or 3.
Maybe run some back to back timed runs to see which yields better results.
i'd need to see a torque curve vs rpm's to tell you which i prefer catagorically.

Interesting to note that the N1 ECU seems to run extremely FAT around vtec change-over, noting to me that the vtec is way too early on that motor.
Call me paranoid, but i rekon its done on purpose to make the driver "FEEL" a sudden burst of power...hence the perception of being a better tune....
It also makes more mid-top end with a comparatively richer a/f. I would assume here that the timing is more aggrssive.


Evan, what can you do for me using a stock OBD2 Civic VTiR ecu to run my JDM ITR motor ?

here is the dyno test comparing the 3 ECU's i had.
1. Mugen N1 Race ECU - Blue line
2. JDM 98 ITR ECU - green line
3. Civic VTiR ECU - red line

Its also worth looking at the A/F ratios too :thumbsup:

[Civic Type R]

With the Mugen ECU - blue line, you cant feel or hear the vtec kick in. Its a gradual thing i noticed

[pgclee]

what ever....as if i got time to go adelaide...duh...


To Pro ECU

As you sounded like a PRO in all this, is mid range that important on Track racing?
you can't compare a cams that is meant for high rpm, to a ITR std cams as they are totally diff in Mid, yes ITR cams can make quite a significant power in Mid, but up top, and changing in to 2nd gear and floor it, that is when you can see the diff...even you can get away 1st and 2nd, how bout 3rd? ...it doesn't make sense to me..if you are saying a CTR cam vs a ITR cam...that is some diff story...

now , i'm assuming that you are comparing a car with Toda C cams that is done properly, and ITR which is properly tuned in Mid...

All i can say is that, for Track racing, is not all about what kinda Power the car produce, is about suspension, camber, body weight, balanced, tyre, and skill..the power can definately cuts you down few sec, but if either one setting is not right, everything is screwed...

higher RPM is beneficial if your car is producing 140kw's @ 10,000rpm..a good example...Jun Super Lemon civic...but that ofcourse, is alot of money...

one more tricky question...about Ignition timing...what do you think of 38degrees advance? one of my friend told me if you know how to go 38 degrees or more, plus if the guy knows whats he's doing, and why he's doing it...you can get ridiculous result on straight line....
but still, i don't know why...any idea?

[KB]

Hey Everyone! Check out my doodle! It's sooo BIG!

[pgclee]

omg, i'm an ass...love to stir shit ard...

[euro1978]

pgclee, why is it that every thread you participate in, turns to a shit fight ????

[pgclee]

Good question...

why don't you ask them to stop picking on me?...
i'm asking something, then they give me others...

anyway, this thread is about finding good tuners...

but yea, good tuners rarely appears...and i think those really knows honda's are hiding somewhere...hmm...but where?..hmmm...



pgclee, why is it that every thread you participate in, turns to a shit fight ????

[KB]

hey theeeeerrrre. Im not an assssssss im a prickkkkk. Going to the pubbbbb. With some friennnndsssss. Want me to be theeerreee. Seeya Latttteeeerrrr.

Im only ****ing around Pcglee. I think the only way you will find a good tuner is with $$$. A good tuner, is a subjective judgement. You have to do your own research, spending your own time and money to base your own opinions on the PROfessionalizzzm of a tuner.

Goodluuuucckkkkkkk.
Hope you find Onnnnnnneeeeeeee.
Seya Lattteeerrrrr

[wynode]

what ever....as if i got time to go adelaide...duh...


To Pro ECU

As you sounded like a PRO in all this, is mid range that important on Track racing?
you can't compare a cams that is meant for high rpm, to a ITR std cams as they are totally diff in Mid, yes ITR cams can make quite a significant power in Mid, but up top, and changing in to 2nd gear and floor it, that is when you can see the diff...even you can get away 1st and 2nd, how bout 3rd? ...it doesn't make sense to me..if you are saying a CTR cam vs a ITR cam...that is some diff story...

now , i'm assuming that you are comparing a car with Toda C cams that is done properly, and ITR which is properly tuned in Mid...

All i can say is that, for Track racing, is not all about what kinda Power the car produce, is about suspension, camber, body weight, balanced, tyre, and skill..the power can definately cuts you down few sec, but if either one setting is not right, everything is screwed...

higher RPM is beneficial if your car is producing 140kw's @ 10,000rpm..a good example...Jun Super Lemon civic...but that ofcourse, is alot of money...

one more tricky question...about Ignition timing...what do you think of 38degrees advance? one of my friend told me if you know how to go 38 degrees or more, plus if the guy knows whats he's doing, and why he's doing it...you can get ridiculous result on straight line....
but still, i don't know why...any idea?

:confused:

pgclee, if you're making a new thread on a public forum expecting to find a 'good tuner' to tune your car.......then i'm afraid you've got it all wrong.

The only way to judge a 'good tuner' is to look at his/her work and speak to his/her customers IMO.

I hate to say it......but it seems that all your posts are either beating around the bush or just have no basis behind them except to brag a little.

What is it that you are looking for exactly from this thread?

[blackdc2]

As you sounded like a PRO in all this, is mid range that important on Track racing?

hahahahhahaahhahahahaha that is funny as hell, mid range is way more important than peak power...


you can't compare a cams that is meant for high rpm, to a ITR std cams as they are totally diff in Mid, yes ITR cams can make quite a significant power in Mid,

mate, spec c cams with a proper motor make more mid range than type-r cams.


but up top, and changing in to 2nd gear and floor it, that is when you can see the diff...even you can get away 1st and 2nd, how bout 3rd? ...it doesn't make sense to me..if you are saying a CTR cam vs a ITR cam...that is some diff story...

wtf are you saying :confused:

[pgclee]

Money? haha...even with money, i can't seem to find one...all of them is good in talking...when it comes to DOING, no results...i was ones encountered with a tuner, saying that a 140kw is easy, definately can go more...ard 142kw assuming...ended up? at 130kw mark...and i check on the MAP, found that he uses diff AFR other than 13, (as i told him it must be ard there), and when he Re-Map it again, seems like the power and performance of the car doesn't go well at all...by the way, the AFR previously, ard 1 yr ago is 11.3...and ignition timing was ard 40 advance...cam phasing was 4 in take 5 out...Fuel press was 28 psi..all are wrong...because i've been advice by another guy back home, saying that is he trying to earn your money, and at the same time, wasting tonnes of your fuel?
There are alot of Jokers around, and All of you out there knows that...A good Builder doesn't mean a Good Tuner...No matter How good they Brag bout what they've achieved previously, it's just all bullshit to me if you couldn't even get near the Mark they've so confident with...

Especially to Tuners who own their show car, think, how many hours you have spent on your car to achieve that? 50hr? and tell me that within 5 hrs you can confidently do the same to my car?

I know that all tuners are just out to make money, but to making a customer so damn dissapointed, dont you all feel bad for them?

anyway, it's the pass now...i'd just had bad experience, along with some of my friend who paid Big bucks on to their cars...

i don't care whether i'll find good tuners or not...you may close this thread now...

for Blackdc2...
don't tell me as if you know everything about track racing...i'm just asking izit more important in Mid than high...i'm not an expert on track...setting and all i still got long way to learn...you got a DC2 that passes 12sec...so? doesn't mean tat your car is the fastest DC 2 on track...no personal attack...is just what i've think...




hey theeeeerrrre. Im not an assssssss im a prickkkkk. Going to the pubbbbb. With some friennnndsssss. Want me to be theeerreee. Seeya Latttteeeerrrr.

Im only ****ing around Pcglee. I think the only way you will find a good tuner is with $$$. A good tuner, is a subjective judgement. You have to do your own research, spending your own time and money to base your own opinions on the PROfessionalizzzm of a tuner.

Goodluuuucckkkkkkk.
Hope you find Onnnnnnneeeeeeee.
Seya Lattteeerrrrr

[blackdc2]

for Blackdc2...
don't tell me as if you know everything about track racing...i'm just asking izit more important in Mid than high...i'm not an expert on track...setting and all i still got long way to learn...you got a DC2 that passes 12sec...so? doesn't mean tat your car is the fastest DC 2 on track...no personal attack...is just what i've think...

mid range is more important for track racing than top end, hence why people put quads on their car, it is to pick up their mid range power.

i can see where this thread has gone, and the mods should have locked it a few pages ago.

i have not said that my car is the fastest on track, so i really dont know where that came from.

but spec s cams on a properly tuned engine produce more midrange than stock ITR cams,

[ek004]

for Blackdc2...
don't tell me as if you know everything about track racing...i'm just asking izit more important in Mid than high...i'm not an expert on track...setting and all i still got long way to learn...you got a DC2 that passes 12sec...so? doesn't mean tat your car is the fastest DC 2 on track...no personal attack...is just what i've think...

We are all beginners at this mate, and no single person knows everything about track racing. However blackdc2 is fast down the quarter mile and on the track, in fact his car was built as a track car not fot the 1/4 mile. Its prolly one of the fastest street driven dc2r track cars I know of.

I really think it would be worthwhile for you to give Adrian a call from Toda Racing Australia. IMHO a good tuner who knows how to build engines is important to how the engine unit turns out, if your tuner builds your engine and tunes as Adrian does, success is just around the corner.

[wynode]

Money? haha...even with money, i can't seem to find one...all of them is good in talking...when it comes to DOING, no results...

So you've tried ALL the tuners here in Australia to come to this conclusion?

If so why post this thread?

[wynode]

i can see where this thread has gone, and the mods should have locked it a few pages ago.


I was hoping we could get some good discussions out of this thread.....alas all that was intended was for this user to vent some frustration it seems *sigh*

EDIT: If we want to talk about this seriously then PM a mod and we will open it given a good enough reason for it.