Shocks + Springs vs Coilovers

[Newcivic]

:thumbsup: Heya guys
I need some help and advice here

I was wondering of getting coilovers for my car, i've herad from people you can take them to the track and corner pretty hard with them (Tein HA's) but then i've also heard that they make your ride feel pretty crap.

And someone told me to get Shocks and springs?! Can still corner pretty hard on track but makes ur ride feel alot better?

Can you guys tell me what's the real difference between the two? like i mean
- Handling
- Cost
- Comfort

And if you guys were to get shocks and springs which ones would you guys buy!

also another noob question the shocks ive read lower your car already and the springs are ment to lower it even more? so does that mean it lowers the car twice?! :confused:

Thanks to those who reply :wave:

P.S Also where would be the best place to buy these!

[Ferrari]

When I do my suspension, I will be opting for Koni Yellows, and Eibach Pro Kit springs, from my research this is a very nice setup, improving looks, performance, and still offering a good ride.

Coilovers if you are goin to track a few times per year would be worthwhile, if your not tracking it, then I dont know if you would require all the adjustability?

[ekslut]

belongs in suspension

*moving*

[nedgeworth]

When I do my suspension, I will be opting for Koni Yellows, and Eibach Pro Kit springs, from my research this is a very nice setup, improving looks, performance, and still offering a good ride.

Coilovers if you are goin to track a few times per year would be worthwhile, if your not tracking it, then I dont know if you would require all the adjustability?

I've got this setup on my 92 civic :D Couldn't imagine anything better for the money :thumbsup:

[Ferrari]

Thanks for that confirmation, cant wait to get me a set!

[Ironfist]

I like the coilovers because you can adjust the height to exactly how you like it (even if your never going to change it again) dampeners are alright, haven't really played with them till the other day but it made the steering abit stiffer and bumps ... tighter?

[JDMTMY]

seems like alot of peeps on this forum use Koni Yellows, and Eibach Pro Kit springs. but i reckon id go for coilovers wen i can afford them. everybody on this forum has diff opinoins on weather to use coilovers or not. best place to buy springs or coilovers would be to look at the traders or in the parts for sale...you can pick up some nice deals with the traders

[[stealth]]

springs + shocks.. usualli a good combo.. soft spring rates etc... legal..

coilovers.. usually go to height u want... stiff suspension in most cases.... is it legal in other states too.. or must be removed if defected?

[kousoku]

you aint gonna get defected for having coilovers, only defected for vehical height.

umm ink performance has good price on tein ss. seems good =D

i have koni's and pro kit on mine, and its pretty good, i just need a sway bar. However, the springs aint as stiff as i would like it. I would suggest sportsline esp if you want to have it "dumped".

[chinkdood]

hm..

i havent tried springs + shocks.

but ive recently puchased a set of cusco COMPS coilovers.

and all i can say is GOOD.. pretty comfortable and best of all.. handles really good.

hieght adjustable n a low spring rate of 7 n 5 i think.. correct me tho if im wrong

i will highly recommend these if your a normal street driver thats wants some handling.

will track soon n post further comments about them :P

[Newcivic]

Awesome feed back guys :)

Thanks for that :D look like Koni Yellow Shocks are the best shocks around if u wanna go shocks and springs combo? what other springs that are real stiff ?

[Phantasm]

anyone know how tien ss compare to a koni yellow and eibach setup??

Im looking at both setups, and dont want my ride to be too soft with handling being the key requirement over comfort.
The tiens are running fairly soft spring rates i think, anyone had experience with both of these?

[FkjAccord]

Can i asked i question?
which ones are better? the brand names that you have talked about or D2s?
Cause im thinking of saving up and getting them? the cost of those are 2k installed.
How does that compared to Teins and Koni?

[z3lda]

ground controls + a nice set of shocks. this combo is height adjustable and damper adjuster.

[barefootbonzai]

I would get Tein or Koni over D2s anyday. Just go with something thats been tested and proven for a long time to be good stuff. I have used king springs, espiler springs, coilover sleeves of ebay, koni coilovers and currently have toda fightex coilovers. I love susspension, and think it's the best modification you can do to your car.

If you are a perfectionist and need your car to look and feel just right, save up and get coilovers, you can't go wrong. If not the combinations of shocks and springs above will serve you fine.

[statix]

I have Koni Yellows and B+G Sport Springs (1.4mm drop) to be fitted on my DC5R next saturday. My current setup is standard suspension and King springs. Wil see how they are going compared to old setup.

[sydteg21]

pretty much depending what you want ,if you want a really good track performance you should go for coilover which is also more expensive than spring +shocks combo,this combo will make the handling better for sure,not as good as coilover.

[aozora]

It depends largely on where you'll be driving?
For track use, I'd be opting for higher spring rates which are common on coil-overs but aren't limited to just them... alot of Jap brand springs have high spring rates (around 10kg/mm for HKS, APEXi, TEIN etc, then soft spring rates are around the 5kg/mm mark) but that said, alot of brands don't tell you the spring rates and aren't too helpful when it comes to finding them out... which doesn't help at all :(

The advantage of coil-overs is the height adjustability which enables you to corner weight your car allowing pre-load adjustment and as a slight weight distribution aid aswell as matched damper/springs, damper adjustment, camber adjustment etc depending on features. That said, most Koni yellows use a circlip groove which allows for SET points of height adjustability but visit any Koni dealer and they should be able to machine new grooves in if you want a different height. BUT you have to be careful that it's not machined too low otherwise there won't be enough stroke room which will affect the overall performance of the damper... but I think the Koni dealer will warn you of that :) But also, make sure that if you do go with the damper/spring combo that the spring rate matches the dampening rate otherwise you'll have to get them revalved or adjust the damper accordingly if adjustment allows for it? As springs control bumps and dampers control springs..! Not the other way around... Also I've been told soft spring rates with thick swaybars do well on track, just like hard spring rates and thin swaybars (ie. coil-overs) do too so don't feel as though soft springs are a bad investment.

So no, coil-overs aren't always best... and dumping your car as low as you can with coil-overs (which I find alot of the time is why people buy coil-overs...) isn't the best option unless you have a proper wheel alignment and the right suspension items to counter the camber, toe and other changes in suspension geometry. But coil-overs like TEIN FLEX have relatively low spring rates like most spring/damper setups but with height adjustability, camber tops and damper adjustment...! And to add, knowing that your springs/damper is well matched is an added bonus too :)

I hope that all makes sense... in the end, do some research on spring rates, decide where you'll be driving most (Aus roads suck, so soft spring rates are great..! Unless you like skipping all over the place...), get the right gear to counter the ride height changes to suspension geometry with your chosen springs and get matching dampers for the springs (or go for coil-overs which will help fix a few of these problems)... and finally don't listen to evil monkeys as there's no SINGLE solution to getting the best handling in a car...! Good luck :)

[causeraybay]

atm im runnin with kyb coilovers n my ride is bumpy as, let alone the rattling noises.. im dyin to change to shocks + springs.. want the good old solid and peaceful ride back (for the peace of mind fer me passengers)

mate of mine told me that in lowering your car, ultimately its on the brand of shocks and springs- dont waste your money, just get budget ones.. implying kings would do... so im thinkin of goin with koni yellows + king springs super lows or should i just spend that extra couple of hundred fer eibach springs....

[JohnnyBoy]

atm im runnin with kyb coilovers n my ride is bumpy as, let alone the rattling noises.. im dyin to change to shocks + springs.. want the good old solid and peaceful ride back (for the peace of mind fer me passengers)

mate of mine told me that in lowering your car, ultimately its on the brand of shocks and springs- dont waste your money, just get budget ones.. implying kings would do... so im thinkin of goin with koni yellows + king springs super lows or should i just spend that extra couple of hundred fer eibach springs....

i'd get the eibach's for the extra $$

[nedgeworth]

atm im runnin with kyb coilovers n my ride is bumpy as, let alone the rattling noises.. im dyin to change to shocks + springs.. want the good old solid and peaceful ride back (for the peace of mind fer me passengers)

mate of mine told me that in lowering your car, ultimately its on the brand of shocks and springs- dont waste your money, just get budget ones.. implying kings would do... so im thinkin of goin with koni yellows + king springs super lows or should i just spend that extra couple of hundred fer eibach springs....

With kings you'll be in for a bone crunching ride vs the eibach's which are nice and smooth :) (with koni shocks)

[aozora]

With kings you'll be in for a bone crunching ride vs the eibach's which are nice and smooth :) (with koni shocks)

Ummm nope.

Eibach spring rates are definately higher then Kings (around 3kg/mm I think? but either way very soft). So there's definately no bone crunching ride there... it would be better the other way around. For street driving they're fine and comfortable, provided like any new springs you put in, they shocks are revalved to meet the springs specs so you don't bounce all over the place. So just for lowering, it really doesn't matter, Kings are fine.

From experience aswell, my friend's car with Eibach Prokit springs definately feel stiffer over my car (Whiteline) and the same with friend's cars with Kings (although alot more roll there ahha and bounce in some cases as they didn't change dampers -_-;). An e-mail to Eibach couldn't get the spring rates though (could only tell us the drop in height over stock... clever :p) :( Easily more then Kings though! The Eibachs are still nice though but slightly too stiff for my liking... and the same for my friend which isn't that nice for spirited Aus road driving ;)

I certainly hope you're not trying any misleading advertising...

[causeraybay]

so aozora, all i want is a ride same as stock standard ride except lowered... . i dont care about cornering hard etc so can u confirm that with superlows + konis, it can satisfy my need!?

[dundas]

if you just want looks... your not going to go on track etc.. and if you dn't have the $$ to blow-- im sure you dont need to get coilovers etc.. grab sum konis and any set off springs.. im pretty sure konis have damper control on them which is pretty good.
if you want a soft comfy ride.. kings or whitelines will probably suit you best-- there is a bit of body roll with kings..but i guess das not too bad if your not taking corners hard etc.. get yourself sum good shockers and im sure it will work out for you!

[TeMp]

I have heard that the shocks and springs have to match or else the shocks will slowly die...

With all these different combo of springs and shocks, how do you know if they match or not?

Also it would be nice if someone can clarify what exactly does "match" mean.

Trying to learn a bit more about sussy here :D

[causeraybay]

thanks dundas,
reassures me on what to get
cheers!

[aozora]

By matching, each spring has a certain rate. Eg. 3kg per mm, so if you put 3kg of weight on top of the spring it will move 1mm. This is calculated by some formula which I forget, with coil width, amount of coils, height... and something else ahha, probably best to just ask the manufacturer. Now dampers (or shocks... bah), are supposed to control this movement of the spring so the ride is smooth and consistant, otherwise with worn shocks, the car will bounce all over the place and even skip bumps which can be quite scary if you're into spirited driving (no steering feel = eek). This control is done by converting the spring's kinetic energy into heat. But one shock cannot control all spring rates, so they are valved so they are able to meet the spring rate (or I suppose you could put it as a "damper/shock rate"). They have to meet them properly though, otherwise if the shock is too low a "rate", the spring cannot be controled properly and the shock will wear out excessively, just like if the shock "rate" is too high the shock will be putting up the most resistance and wear out quickly. That's why when you see dumped cars on the road, I notice alot bounce or roll alot... e-lolz!
There are progressive spring rates where the spring can offer more resistance as the spring compresses... so the damper has to be able to control the range of the spring rates there too.
That all said, damper adjustability isn't really necessary... unless you change springs often or need to tune the bound/rebound on the dampers.
That's a really crappy explanation of it all... but there's probably more places online you can read about, just google it :p

And yes Kings are pretty comfortable with a good set of dampers :) Whiteline too!

[silverabt]

go for coilovers... shock and springs are also up there... but nothing beats the so-called "properness" of coilovers :p

[kOncept]

go the coilovers :thumbsup: i've had coilovers on my last 2 cars and there's no going back

[causeraybay]

got me coilovers removed earlier today and have some questions;
http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/4291dd37z59275424/dfbc/__sr_/8146.jpg?phl8OQDBwmMC65Q1
the guy who did the job fer us said that the guys whod installed it were definitely non-professionals.. because the coilovers werent adjusted at same height.. i am now thinking, is it because of this reason i heard all those different types of funny noises..... if so, does that mean i can adjust them properly and clean it up a bit i wont have to go with what i anticipated of; koni yellows and k s superlows.. although i really wanna cos i wanna start fresh... but some ppl here favour coilovers badd...making me think twice..
any feedback is appreciated!

[Newcivic]

Awesome response guys :) Thanks alot. I'll be purchasing myself a set of coilovers in the near future ! ^^

[aozora]

The noises you hear depending on whether the coil-overs are brand new or not might not be because of the differences in height (unless they're extreme differences...).

Although you can adjust it while in the car... Compare the rear ride heights and the front... then adjust accordingly. The best way to measure it is from hub centre to the guards (straight up).
Eg. 350mm or so depending on how low/high it is.

Adjusting is fairly straight forward, usually there shouldn't be any tension on the spring, and you can move it about when you jack the car up and take off the wheel but even with tension it shouldn't matter, it'll just be a bit harder :) (If there is tension however and they're out of the car and you're thinking of removing the strut tops... don't).
Use the C-spanner to move the spring platform up/down depending on how much you want to correct the ride height. But be warned, every mm you adjust the spring platform doesn't immediatly equal the same in ride height change, as most struts are on an angle and have many other factors involved... so it might take a few goes before you get it right :D

If you just want to dump it... yer no skill involved there, except to be careful of excessive geometry changes and get an alignment once you're happy with the height. But if you want to try and corner weight slightly, raise the heavier end of the car (for FWDs usually the front...) then see how that feels :) Or take it to a suspension specialist and get the car corner weighted... but somehow I don't think anybody here will bother with that :p

[danni_d]

isn't belstein(however you spell it) and eibach a good setup to use?

[kOncept]

for a lower budget setup bilstein shock and eibach spring combination is quite a nice ride, obviously still not like coilovers but I've driven a dc4 with this combo and was quite surprised :)

[danni_d]

but what is better? bilstein shocks and eibach springs or koni yellows and eibach?

[type one]

sorry but i would have to say they are much of a muchness...

[danni_d]

hey.. i was wondering.. if you have koni shocks and coilover sleaves.. would it put a lot of stress onto the shocks? or should it be ok?

[elim]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I'll just use this one.

Can someone please help answer the following scenario/question.

If you have Koni yellow at highest perch with kings "super low", is that the same shit as having Koni yellow at lowest perch with kings "low" ?

I'm assuming the height will be roughly the same ? Is the sussy movements/mechanics differ in any way ? Like for eg, kings low on koni at lowest perch will bottom out easier than kings super low on koni at highest perch (I'm just making this up).

[aozora]

hey.. i was wondering.. if you have koni shocks and coilover sleaves.. would it put a lot of stress onto the shocks? or should it be ok?

Depends on the design ie. not made in China shitty fit/quality etc, it should be perfectly fine :)



If you have Koni yellow at highest perch with kings "super low", is that the same shit as having Koni yellow at lowest perch with kings "low" ?

I'm assuming the height will be roughly the same ? Is the sussy movements/mechanics differ in any way ? Like for eg, kings low on koni at lowest perch will bottom out easier than kings super low on koni at highest perch (I'm just making this up).

If you set the Koni's to the lowest spring seat position, the stroke range of the damper will be affected depending on how much it can "extend" out when sitting there with the springs in. Roadworthy rules are such that the damper must have 2/3s of it's stroke room to use... so, if your springs are below the 2/3 mark of the damper "piston" when they're fully extended out... then there will be issues with RWC (Victoria anyway) and depending on how low the springs are, will affect ride quality and the bump stops will hit regularly (if the spring can compress enough... which is a possibility considering the low spring rates of Kings 2-3kg/mm roughly I think?) and... be generally not nice :)
It's a bit hard to explain here without actually showing you an actual damper/spring setup. I'm not sure whether the "super lows" or even "lows" are low enough to actually do all this, but it is a possibility, find out what the stock spring seat position is on the Koni's, then measure the "lows" and "super lows" then go from there...?

Oh andddd this I'm not sure of, but Koni dampers I think don't have a "linear" dampening curve... as in, at certain points it may be "harder" and others slightly "softer" (without adjusting the dampers) when the "piston" extends and goes back into the damper body. So take that into account aswell with how low the "piston" extends at "normal" height... buttt I'm not sure, so don't hold my word for it :)

Basically find a balance between how low you want to go (spring height), spring rate, and stroke room. Oh and don't forget alignment adjustments...! But if you just care if it looks good or not... screw your tyres and handling... I really don't care... just trying to help if you are interested in them :) I hope that all actually made sense though haha... sorry if it didn't...!