Perth peeps.....

[DOSHBTEK]

Anybody here know what the general engine conversion rates run for in WA? how much for B16A, B18C, H22A? ermm into a civic EK or EG havnt decided. Who are the best and best value for money? Thanks in advance...

[furiou5]

most prolly best just to buy a civic with a b16a already in it, i set out to do a conversion and it's not as cheap as i expected.

I think theres a eg with a B18c for sale in perth some where tho

[SINISTR]

Yeah - if you're looking to buy an EG or EK buy an EG with the engine conversion done and an EK VtiR with a B16A.

There is a B18C EG for sale on vtechnique.com ...

I know of a 89 CRX with a B18C as well thats for sale...

You'd only want to do a Swap if you've owned the car and want to upgrade the engine package - I wouldn't recommend buying a car with a set mind you're going to swap the engine right away - just but the car with the engine from the start.

[VT3C]

some people dont like to buy cars that have been molested already.. like me. bought stock civic and worked towards the swap over a number of years so that now it's done I know exactly what's been done etc.

There's so many dodgy swaps out there that unless you buy an EK4 with factory fitted B16A you will never be sure of what you're paying for.

I know of an EG with worked B16A, EG sedan and EK sedan both with B18C conversions going cheeep, but like I said IMO is sometimes better to do the swap yourself.

AS for a price for a B-series swap.. I ALWAYS reccomend you source a front-cut rather than trying to piece the parts together.

B16A(2) EG6/9 frontcut ~$2500
B18C2 DC2 (VTiR) frontcut ~$3500
B18C5 DC2(R) frontcut ~$5000

Labour from $1000 to $3000 depending on what needs to be done and how much you do yourself.

As for a workshop, well.. Cypher are more than competent in this area.

[DOSHBTEK]

Firstly I dont purport to be a VTEC guru or anything so if I say something stupid you'll have to excuse me. I've always wanted a DOHC VTEC car and the other day I went to check out a 94 EG sedan with B18C, asking price was $11800. He showed me his receipts, car was purchased for $6500 and swap was immediately done for $3200 by Hondbits. Everything on the car was well... cheap. It had 16 inch ROH rims, no name exhaust from a wrecked civic, air filter, spark plug wires :rolleyes: , low springs, a short shift kit, integra seats and a crappy panasonic deck. He told me he spent $16K on the car, there i was looking at his receipts and rough estimates in my head say he spent no more than 2.5K on the extras for the car. At first i thought it was a great deal despite the ugly maroon colour, but then I got to thinking that I could probably do a similar car up for around 10K (approx 5K for EG plus $3200 for B18C swap and associated extras). Am I right or am I passing up on a good deal? Whats to look out for on a swapped car? The clutch felt mushy, the VTEC crossover point wasnt very pronounced, there was sound but no noticeable increase in accelleration (i have driven a few VTEC cars and from memory you can ussually feel a notable difference in power once you reach the VTEC crossover point). Correct me if I'm wrong? Mind you my most recent experience with VTEC I encountered the same thing in my friend's EM1, besides the sound there was no noticeable increase in power (however the previous owner installed NOS and a myriad of other mods then took it all off prior to selling).

[DOSHBTEK]

Hey VT3C could I have some info on the EK sedan with B18C and the EG with worked B16A (is it a hatch or sedan).

[DOSHBTEK]

BTW I saw a black EG9 SIR in northbridge last week. The back seats confirmed my assumption (bucket shaped seating for 2). Must've been a personal import, I'd love to have one of those. Are they the only civics that come with LSD? Anyone with info on the car? Looked very standard on the outside.

[DOSHBTEK]

Is the chasis of an EK4 any different to an EK1? Handling characteristics wise... Besides the obvious differences in springs, shocks strut and sway bars. Anyone know anything about the RED EK4 that's been on sale for yonks now? Asking price 14K 174Kms travelled, is it worth checking out? Wonder why it's taking so long to sell considering its the only civic VTIR available on the market right now.

[SINISTR]

If you look at the calculations above you would be struggling to fit within the 10K mark for a B18 swap - in my opinion.

Depending on which model Civic you buy in the first place - be it a Breeze, GLi, or Vti. Breezes are carburated, Glis are EFI as so are Vtis. Obviously if you buy a Breeze you're not spending much money on the car, but the engine swap requires a little bit more work due to the Carb to Efi conversion.

Buying an EG for 5K + $3500 for a front cut + installation = over 10K. EGs aren't hard to do B series swaps compared to ED/EFs so the time and $ cost is slighlty less.

If I was you id have the car checked by a workshop first - someone like Cypher for example, look at the condition of engine mounts, CVs, Linkages, Oil and any possible smoke.

As Bede said - there are 'thrashed' examples of each car so you're risking buying a lemon, then again - sometimes you can buy a lemon car, a lemon motor and have a lemon swap done - so you end up with a lemon tree with lots of little lemon parts everywhere.

So in the END - the decission is yours, we bought an EG with the B18 already swapped with engineer certificates. We had some issues with the car at the start but its alot better now. We saved ourselves the headache of having the swap done, and even if the engine shit itself sometime - the background work is already done to just drop another one in there.

The reason why u're not feeling much of a change over between normal and vtec cam is because from the sound of it the car is stock, running stock fuel maps etc = its tuned to have a smooth switch over.

[DOSHBTEK]

I wasnt planning on purchasing a frontcut. Hondbits charges $3200 for a B18C conversion, with transmission including labour. Thats what I saw from the receipts, the whole conversion with everything necessary came in at $3200. So i dont see why I cant do an EG b18C for under 10K?

[furiou5]

honbits are only asking for 3.2 for a b18c swap thats a lot cheaper than i expected from them.

Ok ok i retract my previous statement bout buying a car with a swap in it, as im doing the same myself, but it would save a lot of headaches.

I wouldnt swap a b16a into a civic tho, as they came with them, B18c, or a type r would be a whole different matter tho.

If your after something you can drive asap, buy a car with a b16a or a swap done.
If you want to learn more about cars and time aint a factor, buy an eg and a half cut and try the swap yourself.

Dont make the mistake i did and get a ek for a swap, costs more, and b18c half cut parts wont swap in straight away

[SINISTR]

Thats cool - if you can get that price its good.

You do know its for a VtiR not a typeR?

But also depends if the car that the conversion was done to was a carby or Efi... im thinking was an Efi.

[furiou5]

best thing to do is get a definite quote before you buy an eg and then they tell you its a lot more than you expected

[SINISTR]

a Written Quote! yes

[HyperZ]

Is the chasis of an EK4 any different to an EK1? Handling characteristics wise... Besides the obvious differences in springs, shocks strut and sway bars. Anyone know anything about the RED EK4 that's been on sale for yonks now? Asking price 14K 174Kms travelled, is it worth checking out? Wonder why it's taking so long to sell considering its the only civic VTIR available on the market right now.

Pretty sure the EK4 chassis is stronger than the EK1... look at the welds and you will see the difference... I was thinking of having a look at the red EK4 but i heard its changed quite a few hands and even the current owner...young lady... isnt too sure of its service history, given the high kms... i decided not to waste her time... feel free to let us know if u do have a look it at :wave:

[HyperZ]

As Bede said - there are 'thrashed' examples of each car so you're risking buying a lemon, then again - sometimes you can buy a lemon car, a lemon motor and have a lemon swap done - so you end up with a lemon tree with lots of little lemon parts everywhere.


Couldnt have put it any better! :thumbsup:

[HyperZ]

There is also an EK4 up @ a dealer in Wangara going for 14k last time i heard... not sure of its condition but it may be worthwhile taking a drive up to have a look at it too... It had chrome wheels if you are into that kinda *bling*...

[HyperZ]

Off topic, hows your EK9 coming along Furiou5?

[furiou5]

sent my letter of to the govo last week, still waiting for the response, but my importer recons it should be ok to come in one piece.

In singapore atm, car should arrive mid next month:D fingers crossed

oh by the way on the topic of quotes, make sure they have the parts available, there's no point saying they normally do the swap for a certain price if they dont have the parts, sometimes when they do get their hands on the half cut the price may be higher and once again ur stuck with a bigger price for the swap.

im not bashing any perth workshops, but its comon sense that the price of the swap can vary according to available parts

[na]

buy my ek4!!

[SlobberGoat]

Buy a clean car, and do/organise the swap yourself.
Because the experience learned along the way makes it well worth it.

[eg_08_wa]

doshbtek if u can get that price then pm me i know a lot of pplz that will want to do a conversion even if the price is 4k..my fren did it about about 2months ago and he traded his old d16y8 in 4 the b18c and it still cost him 4.5k.
i hardly doubt u can get it done 4 3.2k but then again correct me if im wrong but if u can get it done 4 3.2k ill pay u 4k to get my car converted

[VT3C]

ohh man... the whole problem in Perth with 'tuner' workshops is INCONSISTENCY and the fact that Honda's arent viable therefore nobody knows them too well with the exception of Honbits, but they have moved away from swaps and mainly concerntrate on spare parts as their core business stream.

The EK with B18C is a sedan with 17" (Bronze) ROTA/Mugen Style Rims, not sure what the suspension setup is, but it's fkn low.. has nice exhaust etc.. is Deep Forrest Green.

The EG with the B18C you drove was one of the ones I had mentioned. He was at Drag-Wars when I was racing when I first did my swap and was over a second behind me.. so not sure why so slow, but the sedans are pretty heavy..

Personally am not a fan of the B18C (non type R) due to some characteristics.. some that u mentioned like the un-pronounced VTEC crossover etc are standard to the B18C.

IT was designed for low and mid-range torque with the added VTEC for some top end.. the intake manifold is totally different to all other B-series.. with the dual-tract intake runners operated by a butterfly valve.. is designed to optimise low-down power and mid range flexibility. the VTEC point is set lower with this tuning on the B18C usually about 4500 and is almost inaudible untill the secondary butterfly opens some 1000RPM later however there is less 'kick' in the change. this is actually GOOD because the ultimate tune would be a perfectly linear power curve.. the B18C through it's 2 stage intake manifold, increased displacement (over B16A) and use of Variable Valve timing (VTEC), is able to have a very linear power curve as a result.

to compare to my JDM B16A (which switches VTEC at 5800RPM and rev-cut at 8500) with an EXTREMELY pronnounced audible change and a fairly noticible spike in power. However the B16A has the same or slightly less low down torque than a D-series.. but my top end has allowed me to chop VTiR integras with similar mods as the B18C2 has a weaker top-end.

Plus the B16A has complete interchangability with Type R B18C in terms of parts.. the DC2 Integra Chassis is based on the EG chassis and all Integra parts bolt on directly to the EG. Hardly anything from an integra will swap to an EK chassis easilly.

The EG chassis is slightly lighter than the EK version accross the lineup, and in my opinion, the EG5 (Si or VTi) is the best candidate for a swap as it has 4-wheel disc brakes, stabilizer bars, all electrics, VTi wired for VTEC and only needs minor wiring changes.. the Si is older (late 91-early 93) and comes with the 'ZC' DOHC and the VTi (mid 93-late 95) had the SOHC VTEC but also has an electric moonroof and 95 models have ABS and Airbags.

also a thing to consider is that an engine must be of the same year of manufacture or newer than the chassis that it is installed.. so a 99 CXi would have to have a 99-01 motor to be legal.. is VERY hard and expensive to get these motors.. an 92 EG can have a 92-01 motor installed.. and is much cheaper to get a 92-95 front-cut than an EK DOHC VTEC or late model integra.

In my opinion, you shouldnt pay more than $2500 for a good condition EG front-cut and $3500 for a good condition DC front cut.. (excluding type R).

What I would reccomend is:

1. EG5 with B16A swap plus type R cams etc or aftermarket to come close to B18C-R spec.

2. EG5 with B18B (non VTEC = cheap) then go fourth to 'LS-VTEC' with a B16A head, or boost or BOTH.

I think if you do a lot of the work yourself or by mates and you could get an 92 Si for ~6000 and then a B16A front cut for $2500 and that leaves $1500 for labour and misc parts which would be cutting it fine.. i'd say $12,000 could do you a swapsies but thats anywhere from one-week to 6 months with your car off the road.

p.s. allthough HAS been done by many, I dont reccomend doing a swap in a GL/Breeze that has carbys because it will make life hard when you have to do extra things like fuel lines, fuel pumps, and carby-to-PGMFI wiring would be a nightmare. is always best to keep everything as simple as possible.

[VT3C]

man am thinking of setting up shop to do swaps HAHAH unqualified mechanic but know most the ins-and-outs of B-series to civic swaps HAHHAHA.

Twerp* Racing Industries - Your HONDA HYBRID Partner ;)

[SINISTR]

Personally am not a fan of the B18C (non type R) due to some characteristics.. some that u mentioned like the un-pronounced VTEC crossover etc are standard to the B18C.

IT was designed for low and mid-range torque with the added VTEC for some top end.. the intake manifold is totally different to all other B-series.. with the dual-tract intake runners operated by a butterfly valve.. is designed to optimise low-down power and mid range flexibility. the VTEC point is set lower with this tuning on the B18C usually about 4500 and is almost inaudible untill the secondary butterfly opens some 1000RPM later however there is less 'kick' in the change. this is actually GOOD because the ultimate tune would be a perfectly linear power curve.. the B18C through it's 2 stage intake manifold, increased displacement (over B16A) and use of Variable Valve timing (VTEC), is able to have a very linear power curve as a result.


I agree but disagree at thesame time.

What I agree with is the linear curve when tuned, but i disagree with the generalisation you've made towards the B18C2 motor in particular having an un-noticable Vtec change over compared to the B18C5s.

It tends to happen on all B-series - having driven a stock B16A and a B18C both 2 and 5 series I can say that in stock (bone stock) scenarios they ALL have small changeover into Vtec. Once you put on an intake pod and an exhaust that changes the noticability of the Vtec change over - because its alot more noisy, it breathes a little better as well.

Also im pretty sure that the Vtec change on our B18C2 happens above 5000rpm not below as you stated - but that could be something that has been changed with the Microtech ECU and tune.

As for the linear curve - I can say that even with the tune its on atm having made 147hp@wheels on the last dyno run, it was very flat without a major spike when vtec kicks in yet it does pull hard when vtec changes. I think it may have something to do with the difference between the CAMS in a C2 and C5.

[VT3C]

I agree but disagree at thesame time.

what's new :rolleyes:

and we're talking about a swap not wild ECU tuning here.. I mean Isaac's Stock B18C with MOTEC and decent tune was awsome and had VTEC at 6200RPM (!!) and definately made more noise..but man you're talking about noise !?!?! :confused: I think your experience with B-series is more with modified setups, we're talking stock or I/H/E mods using stock ECU etc.

as for the power curve, personally I like crazy top end even if it sacrifices low down cause let's face it, with honda's and racing you're not below 4000RPM very often.. and with similarally modified B18C's my car might loose down low but top end more than makes up for it.

anyway back to the thread topic.....

if you want top-end power and arguably the best potential for tuning, interchangability, cost and ease, get a B16A.. if you want low-down torque and or intend to boost, the B18C is the way to go.. if you're on a tight budget, B18B then LS-VTEC/Boost.

In a perfect world with money not being an object, the answer is B18C(R) all the way.. for the B-series that is.. K20(R) would be nice... sigh.. :cool:

[SINISTR]

and we're talking about a swap not wild ECU tuning here.. I mean Isaac's Stock B18C with MOTEC and decent tune was awsome and had VTEC at 6200RPM (!!) and definately made more noise..but man you're talking
about noise !?!?! :confused: I think your experience with B-series is more with modified setups, we're talking stock or I/H/E mods using stock ECU etc.


Well i did say I agree and disagree. READ before you comment.


It tends to happen on all B-series - having driven a stock B16A and a B18C both 2 and 5 series I can say that in stock (bone stock) scenarios they ALL have small changeover into Vtec. Once you put on an intake pod and an exhaust that changes the noticability of the Vtec change over - because its alot more noisy, it breathes a little better as well.

I think thats pretty much self explanatory!?

[Civic Type R]

I paid about $1500 for my EK4 to have the full engine and running gear changed and replaced with JDM B18c Type R fruit.

[**Ghost**]

wot fruit are we talking about?

cos 1500 is bloody cheap if thats cams/valvetrain/internals... price = u paid no labor

[Civic Type R]

Well for a start The VTiR has already a compatible engine bay - both being B series, and everything is almost identical to the DC2R. So it was just as easy as unbolting and rebolting it all back up again (but with Type R fruit)

I had to pay another $400 to have my fuel pump upgraded and tuned and extractors remade tho.

The fruit list is too long to type now :D

[HyperZ]

I paid about $1500 for my EK4 to have the full engine and running gear changed and replaced with JDM B18c Type R fruit.

Very reasonably priced :)

[HyperZ]

Well for a start The VTiR has already a compatible engine bay - both being B series, and everything is almost identical to the DC2R. So it was just as easy as unbolting and rebolting it all back up again (but with Type R fruit)

I had to pay another $400 to have my fuel pump upgraded and tuned and extractors remade tho.

The fruit list is too long to type now :D

O.T, Why did you have to upgrade the fuel pump?

[SINISTR]

cos at the time his injectors wanted more juice than his fuel pump could supply - so a bigger fuel pump was the only way to go.

[HyperZ]

Ahh i forgot he upgraded alot of other fruits too, that explains it :)

[Civic Type R]

cos at the time his injectors wanted more juice than his fuel pump could supply - so a bigger fuel pump was the only way to go.

spot on :thumbsup: