B16A or B16B???? bang for buck..

[intacivic16v]

I own a 1988 Honda CRX which I use as a street car/ race car. I have been racing it at hill climbs and circuit events for the last year. The car handles pretty well with the weight of around 900kg in racing trim, however I only have an imported ZC 1600 engine which is great but I would love some more power as always. The problem is that I want the car to stay with a 1600 engine due to racing classes, if it stays a 1600 I stay in the 1300 to 1600 class which is much better than the 1600 to 2000 class. I have been pricing some b16a engines and some b16b engine and I have some very good prices for both engines. What I would love to know is how hard it is to get a b16a engine to the power of a type r engine. And what you guys think are the benefits of each engine??

[sydteg21]

if you have the good price for B16b as well, i would go for the B16b,CTR engine.

[Da1nONLY]

if you have the good price for B16b as well, i would go for the B16b,CTR engine.

why not go for hat extra bit and get a b18c7 :p ?

[civiceg9]

why not go for hat extra bit and get a b18c7 :p ?


The problem is that I want the car to stay with a 1600 engine due to racing classes

Get the b16b as your get a close gear ratio gearbox with LSD, and a engine with good mods u can get 200hp+ out of it.

You doing the races for fun?

[intacivic16v]

Yeah the b16b was my thought as well, i wasn't 100% sure if they came out standard with a LSD from japan. Yeah i have been quoted a really good price for the b16b but i am waiting for that to be confirmed. My thoughts are that a type r engine is a much better backage all round from scratch. How much modification do you guys thing will need to be made to get a b16b into a 1990 CRX???

[jords]

It would be best to buy a front cut B16B, as it will have everything that you need for the conversion.

[bennjamin]

why is this in the teg section ? Moved to technical...

[blusir2]

i mate...

I work for Adrian at toda racing and i'll tell u that from my experience its very hard to get a B16b.. if u can find one then ur laughing... expensive too.. i had a EG with a full EG6 SiR2 conversion from the dash forward and with that i had extractors, cat back exhaust and pod filter with piping ducted to the front bumper.. i got 99.7kilowatts at the front wheels.. was pretty fast and could keep up with DC2's but just never got them coz they had more torque off the start but never mor ethan 1 car length away.
i mean the b16a and b arent like different engines.. cheaper option is probably B16A and get the head ported and worked.. they are pretty cheap now but gettin rare..

anywayz if u need any help or info just msg me.. im trying to help the boss out by aiding ppls in the forum..

holler if u need help from the frenly crew at Toda Racing..

Jason..

[intacivic16v]

Yeah i am doing the races for fun, i would love to make something more of it but its very expensive. I have raced at one NSW state hill climb round and the car went really well considering its a road car and i was up against full race cars.

[intacivic16v]

How much money would you need to put into a b16a to get that much power though???? and then the diff??

[ekslut]

I say get a B16A and with the money you save, do some cheap, sensible mods to it. More than likely you will end up with more power and it wont cost you as much. All depends on how much you can get the B16B for though.

[blusir2]

yeh i agree ek slut as i said... at the Toda workshop Adrian has made huge power with the B16A... its not very necessary to get the B16B... its just got a different head and higher compression as the major changes..

the head is a head.. alloy... but u can get it flowed.. all the B-series heads are about the same except for the valve angles... whether its a B16a,b or B18b,c they are similar..

u just need to flow them and u will have a good head.. higher comp just deck the block a little and there u go... all the stuff original from honda is just bogusly expensive...as for the diff?? just get a quaife lsd or sumthin similar...

anymore questions?? if u are really interested i would go the B16A front cut which gives u gear box loom and dash and then bring it down to our workshop and get the mids done.. with the money u save from the B16B u will definately get more power..

[Perry]

i would go for the b16b's honestly, hey BLUsir2 are u the guy wif the plates B16A

[blusir2]

yeh i am...where do u see my car?? i just sold the car yesterday.. but i still have the plates.. i have them kept in storage so i can sell them..

I agree with u also but B16B is very very very hard to get and for the money is not the best option... its not like the difference between a b18b and b18c..

the vtir integra is shit compared to the type r but not the case with the civic's

in my eyes B16B not worth it...

[Perry]

yeh i am...where do u see my car?? i just sold the car yesterday.. but i still have the plates.. i have them kept in storage so i can sell them..

I agree with u also but B16B is very very very hard to get and for the money is not the best option... its not like the difference between a b18b and b18c..

the vtir integra is shit compared to the type r but not the case with the civic's

in my eyes B16B not worth it...

i've seen it around heaps in the ct ages ago, i agreee b16b's are rare but when the b16a's dies out then b16b's will come in

[hobbes]

I race(d) with a guy here in NZ that did a B16B conversion to an EF. Apparntly it is a bit of a fiddle as the firewall has to be cut and modded to give you some room. If you like I can ask him to send you an email with some info on it?

[intacivic16v]

Yeah that sounds pretty good, the price i have been quoted foe the type r is very very good though... the price difference that i have between a b16a and a b16b is not as huge as it should be :) I am on a bit of a budget so if i did get tthe type r i would touch it at all except foe maybe clutch and a ligtened fly wheel, sorry where is the toda workshop located??

[intacivic16v]

My e-mail is intacivic16v@hotmail.com

I have been told that you can buy modified engine mounts which make the engine fit straight in??

[blusir2]

If u want details of our workshop and company go to the traders listed near the start... our name is TODA Racing Australia.. we are situated at Ingleburn...

well no matter which engine u get ur gonna need new engine mounts... a good tip for the mounts is to get them filled with tank sealant... Honda mounts are crap as they bend and buckle then snap...

look us up and come down oneday with ur car and u can find the answers to all ur problems in the one little shop...

[pgclee]

Go for B16a...or B20 block with B16 head...

[blusir2]

its a good combo just that the b20 block is a bit sh1t... its from a crv so its not meant to be thrashed.. u will have to spend a little money to get it balance and get rods and pistons for reliability...bearing as well..

there are plenty of combinations and blah blah...we have tested out many many combos at the workshop...

if u are thinking which one u want u really should start with this plan of attack.. think about how much u are willing to spend maximum!!!! and then add another 20-30% ontop coz it will always cost more... then also think about wat u want.. is it power? drag? circuit? street... u have to decide wat u want first out of the car then u can put a package together...

for eg.. we have a crx with a b16a stock crank with rods and pistons.. toda of course.. HKS bolt on turbo setup and a ported head which my boss adrian did.. and another couple of things... nothing expensive.. microtech compuet... adrian tuned it to 297.3kw at the front wheels... its all about the package and how well it is tuned.. i cant emphasise how important tuning is..

anywayz... like i said drop by the workshop.. Unit 14 / 79 Williamson Rd Ingleburn N.S.W. 2565

[revNhevN]

I've seen the dyno graph for this turbo crx. its bloody awesome. the owner was telling me how he beats porsches at the track.

[blusir2]

yeh mark/butthead as we call him goes to the porsche days at eastern creek and kills the porsches.. hahaha... its sooo funny gettin beaten by a little rice burner...

these idiots spend over 200k on their supposed euro sports car and they get ripped by a 1989 crx... hahahaha

yeh its a good car that adrian built... he put a lot of time and effort into that car as he does with all the cars from our workshop..

anyone who is interested come into our workshop and ask for me... Jason...

i will have a yarn to u guys if u wanna and if im not there talk to adrian....but he is very very busy all the time.. well we all are..

hope to see u honda fanatics at our shop..

[Perry]

yeh mark/butthead as we call him goes to the porsche days at eastern creek and kills the porsches.. hahaha... its sooo funny gettin beaten by a little rice burner...

these idiots spend over 200k on their supposed euro sports car and they get ripped by a 1989 crx... hahahaha

yeh its a good car that adrian built... he put a lot of time and effort into that car as he does with all the cars from our workshop..

anyone who is interested come into our workshop and ask for me... Jason...

i will have a yarn to u guys if u wanna and if im not there talk to adrian....but he is very very busy all the time.. well we all are..

hope to see u honda fanatics at our shop..

when did u start working there? I've been there a couple of time not sure who u are?

[Sitwy]

I wish the work shop is not located in melbourne >.<

[blusir2]

i only there on weekends to help with sales and sum work on thr floor...
i have a full time job apart from it.. i have known adrian for many years and thats why i will go down and help him with sales and give him an extra hand on the workshop floor when he is too busy...

im the only asian guy there so u will notice me next time if u see me??

[Perry]

i only there on weekends to help with sales and sum work on thr floor...
i have a full time job apart from it.. i have known adrian for many years and thats why i will go down and help him with sales and give him an extra hand on the workshop floor when he is too busy...

im the only asian guy there so u will notice me next time if u see me??

oh i was about to ask adrian if he needed help on the weekends as well ehhee
ill see u around there soon bro

[intacivic16v]

Work shop in Sydney... thats a bit of a bummer i used to live there a year ago, now i live 10hours away near the QLD boarder

[blusir2]

well we have authorised dealers in Queensland... u have plenty of resources.. anywayz.. u dun have to come to our workshop but just get good advice.. and like i said just start off by thinking how much power u want and how much u can afford.. that is the best platform for a start on wat to get...

good luck

[Civic Type R]

Any chance of heading out west - Perth way ?

[Dylanamus]

The b16b us a destroked b18c, not just a "better" b16a. So despite both engines being 1600cc, they are not in the same league. The short stroke of the b16b makes it a really fast revving and fun engine to play with. You'll probably have to give people a better idea of how much you are expecting to pay for your front cut for anyone here to give you better advice.

For example, every time I see a b16b front cut for sale, it's so close to the price of a b18cR that as tempting as it is to get the underdog b16b, it just doesn't remain a financially economical choice. I'd give you this advice too if I knew that your deal was not far off what you could pick up the big brother for.

The conversion itself will cost roughly the same in labour for any choice as all are b series hydro and will all require the same attention mostly.

Based on your goals, I would personally recommend a b16a and put the balance towards suspension modifications. Take hipowerracing's CRX (with an untouched b16a onboard) as an example. Without any extra power beyond the b16a, (and CAI etc), that car has pulled lap times above evos, wrxs, skylines etc.

If you get the b16b conversion you'll find yourself wishing you could still afford race coilovers, semi slicks, and thicker/wider swaybars, while your laptimes will probably be worse than the stock b16a with handling mods.

If you've budgeted for handling improvements aswell and can afford the whole lot, then why not get the b16b! As mentioned, it has a closer ratio type R LSD transmission! That's just what I reckon...

[e240]

these idiots spend over 200k on their supposed euro sports car and they get ripped by a 1989 crx... hahahaha

at the end of the day, I'd rather be an "idiot" with 200K to blow than a nothing with a rice rocket wondering how to afford the next oil change.

[preludacris]

who wouldnt

but they still get ripped by a 89 crx in need of an oil change. funny huh.

[e240]

who wouldnt

but they still get ripped by a 89 crx in need of an oil change. funny huh.

Funny? Nope..I see it more as sour grapes. Just because one has a Porsche doesn't mean they have to drive the balls off it. They probably don't have ego to make up. These people don't even care if you're faster than them, and you probably rely on them to give you a job.

A Class 2D Porsche can clock a 1:45 at Eastern Creek in the hands of a capable driver easy. Can any 4 banger rice rocket come even close to that?

[Dylanamus]

Gets off topic pretty quick these days haha. Seriously, bottom line is if you can afford the b16b, yes it is better than a b16a. Simple. But I would get the b16a with handling mods over a b16b and no handling mods any day. If you haven't already discovered it, you will soon come to realise that handling is everything in a FWD. Leave the all power and no handling to the muscle cars.

[ginganggooly]

i mean the b16a and b arent like different engines..

Pardon me??
I wouldn't normally be this pedantic, but they are quite different:
Narrower and longer rods
Narrower bearings
Domed pistons
Different, taller block
Different crank
And the valvetrain which everyone is already familiar withI think it's (b16b) actually a great move IF you are wanting to stay within the specified capacity limits.

[ginganggooly]

Funny? Nope..I see it more as sour grapes. Just because one has a Porsche doesn't mean they have to drive the balls off it. They probably don't have ego to make up. These people don't even care if you're faster than them, and you probably rely on them to give you a job.

A Class 2D Porsche can clock a 1:45 at Eastern Creek in the hands of a capable driver easy. Can any 4 banger rice rocket come even close to that?

Some of those K-series powered Elise's are running in the high 1:30's. Not bad for a 4 banger rice rocket eh :p

[e240]

Some of those K-series powered Elise's are running in the high 1:30's. Not bad for a 4 banger rice rocket eh :p

I hardly consider an Elise a Rice Rocket Ya...certainly not at 70~80K a pop and then add the K Series mod.

1 38 R.D.S. David Wall (NSW) Porsche GT3 RSR 3600 8 7 1:35.8233*
2 3 TBA TBA Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 7 3 1:36.1715 0:00.3482
3 69 "Dare Shots, Supabarn Supermar James Koundouris (ACT) Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 10 10 1:36.8299 0:01.0066
4 18 Twigg Waste Management Max Twigg (VIC) Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 9 7 1:37.5811 0:01.7578
5 90 Cargraphic Sven Burchartz (VIC) Porsche GT3 3600 7 5 1:38.2131 0:02.3898
6 7 Dupont D'Arcy Russell (VIC) Dodge Viper GTS ACR 8000 8 7 1:38.3560 0:02.5327
7 88 "Industry Central, Stahlwille John Teulan (QLD) Ferrari 430 Challeng 4300 9 8 1:38.7742 0:02.9509
8 19 "Dare Shots, Supabarn Supermar TBA TBA Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 11 8 1:39.0472 0:03.2239
9 55 Roock Damien Flack (QLD) Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 7 5 1:39.0776 0:03.2543
10 23 Pelorus Property Group Paul Tresidder (NSW) Porsche GT3 Cup Car 3600 8 6 1:39.9970 0:04.1737
11 45 Bolin Racing Paul Bolinowsky (NSW) Porsche GT3 3600 7 4 1:40.0305 0:04.2072

[Dylanamus]

Yeah the b16b is more comparable to a b18cR than a b16a. If you want power closer to a b18cR but would like to stay 1600cc (and don't really plan on cracking the engine open and doing any internal work), a b16b is the ultimate choice.

Why has this turned into people comparing a Civic with a GT3? How can you even begin to line the two cars up and expect your comments to maintain credibility? Everyone is different. Some people want a high performance car, just add water. For other people it's more about the journey and the customisation and the DIYs. Either which way, if you reply to someone's post you should be offering them relevant and helpful information, not insulting their personal choices.

Personally I find it amusing watching a backyard Honda racing around with Porsche cup cars and I'm sure the Honda driver does too. Doubt he's beating himself over the head for not being able to compete with their lap times.