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fly_vti
25-09-2005, 09:07 PM
theres this thing on these forums going around where people saying the b18b block is stronger? eg: to support turbo. can anyone provide hard evidence to support this case? :confused:

need to know, so i know whether i should get dc4 gsi or dc2 vtir. (eventually turbod t28) :p bang 4 buk wise. :thumbsup:

any proffessional advise could be helpful!

:rolleyes:

2MPRSS
25-09-2005, 09:25 PM
il say it again b18b

Q_ball
25-09-2005, 09:26 PM
dc4 yo

wynode
25-09-2005, 09:56 PM
I think one of the limitations that was mentioned was the fact that the VTEC head will flow better than the GSi head ?

locote
26-09-2005, 01:12 AM
but is the b18b head restrictive in anyway?
or it just doesnt flow as good as a vtec head with normal atmospher pressure.
remember the engine is no longer sucking air in.
do the same pricipals apply to a boosted motor same as a N/A???
vtec was designed as a means of getting the most power out of a small capacity motor with out the need to boost, so y go and boost it, y didnt honda bring the option of a boosted vtec?
these motors make great power NA thats the way they were designed.

saxman
26-09-2005, 05:56 AM
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's stronger... most people claim that because the b18b is lower compression

kOncept
26-09-2005, 09:10 AM
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's stronger... most people claim that because the b18b is lower compression
yes, i always thought that ppl chose b18b for forced induction because of the lower compression too :)

i could be wrong...

fly_vti
26-09-2005, 09:53 AM
well ill be getting internals done too, so it wont make a difference will it? strength wise. or heard flow wise? or is the vtec head still an advantage... turbo vtec'

locote
26-09-2005, 10:27 AM
fly have a search on the net to see if the vtec head has an advantage under boost to the b18b.
i have been told i doesnt by 2 tuners.
i was all set to buy a recon flowed b16a head for my gsi, but i back off after speaking to these blokes, they said the difference it will make would not be worth the price,
boost and vtec are 2 different methods of extraction max power out a small capacity engine.

locote
26-09-2005, 10:34 AM
if you look at cam specs then you will c the difference between a cam profile designed for a turbo motor and 1 for max N/A power the duration @ .050" is a lot lower on the turbo cams on non vtec vehicles.

2MPRSS
26-09-2005, 10:51 AM
i been told the b18b is much safer to turbo and in the long run you will get more out of it

bennyBear
26-09-2005, 10:57 AM
Vtec seems to limit the amount of boost you can run, assuming both gsi and vti-r engines would get new internals, the vtec cam profile would be to high to run higher boost, end up with valve float in high rpm

fly_vti
26-09-2005, 12:16 PM
Vtec seems to limit the amount of boost you can run, assuming both gsi and vti-r engines would get new internals, the vtec cam profile would be to high to run higher boost, end up with valve float in high rpm


what is valve floating?

saxman
26-09-2005, 12:23 PM
lets put it this way... the same people that say the b18b is stronger and that the vtec head isn't better for turbo are usually the same ones that say you can't turbo high compression motors.


I'd rather have a turbo b18c than a b18b any day of the week

BlitZ
09-11-2005, 01:55 PM
lets put it this way... the same people that say the b18b is stronger and that the vtec head isn't better for turbo are usually the same ones that say you can't turbo high compression motors.


I'd rather have a turbo b18c than a b18b any day of the week

True that...

A blown b18c would hammer a blown b18b with the same turbo setup so easily with its hands tired around it back:cool:

GSI-PSI
09-11-2005, 02:38 PM
True that...

A blown b18c would hammer a blown b18b with the same turbo setup so easily with its hands tired around it back:cool:

show us the proof and we'll all believe ya. Im not sayin its not possible but this thread is about proof not fantacy.

pornstar
09-11-2005, 03:18 PM
show us the proof and we'll all believe ya. Im not sayin its not possible but this thread is about proof not fantacy.

i think theres a few vtirs here who offered to run u? but u said ur engine blew last time out?

GSI-PSI
09-11-2005, 03:27 PM
i think theres a few vtirs here who offered to run u? but u said ur engine blew last time out?


haha i dont rememba anyone sayin they wanna run me but id be happy 2 run them, not sayin im gonna win or anythin, just see what the difference is :D
BTW who were they??????????

GSI-PSI
09-11-2005, 03:30 PM
to give you guys an idea, rolling start i blew a stock gtr32 godzilla and a twin turbo supra. The supra guy then told me he ran a 13.3 at calder the week before.

wynode
09-11-2005, 05:07 PM
How much boost are you running GSI-PSi and

1) How much power are you making at the wheels
2) What is your best 1/4 mile time (post 60 foot and mph please)

There's a few turbo dc2 vti-rs around here so i'd like to compare.

LVNIT
09-11-2005, 05:34 PM
ok i got my car back during the week and was unhappy 2 see that this engine was only giving me approx 120kw at the wheels on 7psi. My old gsi was 128 @ 6psi. So last night i decided to take it 2 calder to see the difference. I havent put the clutch in yet cos i wanted 2 see how it went 1/4mile first. And guess what?????? I now have a 13 second car lol... car #129

http://tinypic.com/6ymqg7.jpg

Here you go Wyn, its from GSI-PSI's thread

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353333&postcount=71

DynoDave
09-11-2005, 09:30 PM
Vtec seems to limit the amount of boost you can run, assuming both gsi and vti-r engines would get new internals, the vtec cam profile would be to high to run higher boost, end up with valve float in high rpm
How on earth did you come up with that bullshit?
Regards Dyno Dave

tinkerbell
09-11-2005, 09:55 PM
How on earth did you come up with that bullshit?
Regards Dyno Dave

i think he has a bucket full of it somewhere?

seriosly folks, you are all getting it quite messed up.

the ONLY reason a B18B might be "better" for boost is that it is lower compression STOCK.

the rest of the engine is crap, the rods are weaker, the head is weaker, the whole engine is not designed for power, even the water pump is designed for low RPM/low power operation.

now, a B18C - is desinged for higher RPM/higher power operation.

the head is much stronger, the pistons better design, the crank is better, the engine is BETTER and it is NOT too high compression for turboing provided you have it tuned.

now if you are going to REBUILD it with forged internals,

there is NO way you would use a B18B over a B18C.

ever.

the ONLY reason you would use a B18B block was if you got it for $100, re-sleeved it and were using a Type R crank with aftermarket rods and pistons with Type R head...

(fly-vti - there is no reson to get a crap GSi just to get slightly lower compression engine.)

Q_ball
09-11-2005, 10:53 PM
tinkerbell, you make it sound like a b18b is not worth boostin, but ey...look at mine for instance.
every1 was puttin shit on my setup b4 theyve seen the power figures...and also stating that it wouldnt last a month, 5000km etc etc...
now its been over 3months since gettin my car back, and its still going strong as ever, and the power figures are quite impressive to say the least.
i rekon its worth every penny.

locote
09-11-2005, 11:06 PM
Why does it always turn into a GSI bashing arguement.
How many current factory turbo hondas are there??
NONE,
but it proves that if you wanna make power by staying N/A you can, or if you want FI then you can make power too.
both have its ups and downs.
ITS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE

pornstar
10-11-2005, 12:25 AM
no1s bashing gsi's, but to compare or say its better than a vtir boosted is when its getting silly

i dont mean their shit, not at all, its whe n ur comapring to vtir output, the vtir will always output more if all else is equal

GSI-PSI
10-11-2005, 01:16 AM
Here you go Wyn, its from GSI-PSI's thread

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353333&postcount=71

Since then i ran the times in my signature below 13.8 @ 103mph. That engine was old with high km (189,XXXkm) and never really went that good. Now i have the original engine that was in the white teg that got written off. Im yet to run it but it will be taken to heathcote on 26th dec for the summer nationals. Im currently getting 132kw at the rubber on 10psi and its definately pulling much harder than the other engine. Interesting to see what times i get once my lsd is put in as well.

locote
10-11-2005, 08:04 AM
get the lsd before you run.
you might find your self spinning tyres through out every gear,
my mates pulsar has that problem, best he can do is high 13s @ 110mph+

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 10:28 AM
Why does it always turn into a GSI bashing arguement.
it hasn't, maybe GSi owners are overly sensitive?

Q_ball - the question wasn't "is a b18b is worth boostin"

it was


people saying the b18b block is stronger? eg: to support turbo. can anyone provide hard evidence to support this case?
i was outlining (with brief evidence) why IMO the B18C is 'stronger'...

do you suggest that based on the evidence, the B18B is actually stronger? if so, why?

wynode
10-11-2005, 11:53 AM
I will get some times for a stock internal turbo DC2 and post up here once he gives me permission :)

How much boost are you running GSI-PSI?

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 12:07 PM
I will get some times for a stock internal turbo DC2 and post up here once he gives me permission :)

How much boost are you running GSI-PSI?

drag time and boost numbers dont tell you how 'strong' an engine is Wyn...

besides, i ran 13.7 on a stock B20B block and everyone says they are 'weak'

ProECU
10-11-2005, 12:19 PM
drag time and boost numbers dont tell you how 'strong' an engine is Wyn...

besides, i ran 13.7 on a stock B20B block and everyone says they are 'weak'

Everyone says that because they ARE weak.
Cylinders go out of round. Just because they may not crack, doesnt mean you are extracting 100% power from your motor.

Did you bother to do a leakdown test.
Compression test wont give you an idea on ring seal quality.

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 12:21 PM
Everyone says that because they ARE weak.
Cylinders go out of round. Just because they may not crack, doesnt mean you are extracting 100% power from your motor.

Did you bother to do a leakdown test.
Compression test wont give you an idea on ring seal quality.

:confused:

all i was saying is that you cant say an engine is 'strong' because it can do 13 second 1/4 miles?

Q_ball
10-11-2005, 01:23 PM
tinkerbell::

nah man, not saying that the b18b is stronger than the b18c or n e thin like that...i understand and agree with everything that ur sayin..
jst sounded like u wouldnt bother with a b18b thats all

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 01:30 PM
well, if i had an option (like fly-vti does) i would go with B18C as first choice,

that is all - if i had the option

did you buy your DC4 then decide to boost it?

did PSI-GSI already have a B18B turbo kit when he got his new DC4?

history is responsible for some of our 'choices' ;)

FR33K
10-11-2005, 01:35 PM
would a b20vtec handle a bit of beating every now again... or only on limited occasions..

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 01:38 PM
would a b20vtec handle a bit of beating every now again... or only on limited occasions..

under boost? i doubt it...

bennjamin
10-11-2005, 01:38 PM
IMO either boost the engine to a sensible limit that is IN your car - or sell it (the car) and buy something more reliable and or reputeable for your aim :D

Q_ball
10-11-2005, 01:43 PM
did you buy your DC4 then decide to boost it?

yeh, i had a choice of going typr, vtir and gsi - i always had my mind set on boosting my honda :D

locote
10-11-2005, 02:35 PM
i think every one had a choice when they got their cars, no one is forced to buy a car!!!
i was thinking of boosting when i got my gsi, but now i decided not to, but i dont wanna go vtec either.
i can achive what im aiming for with a gsi.
i used to think that Hondas in general where SLOW (not just nonvtecs)
my last car was doin mid 12s id rip 99.9% of cars that wanted to run me on the street.
i know my gsi will never get to 12s hahaha.
my goal is high 13s NA, and when i reach it ill be happy.

wynode
10-11-2005, 02:47 PM
drag time and boost numbers dont tell you how 'strong' an engine is Wyn...



I'm interested in comparing 'stock engine' vs 'stock engine' under boost.

locote
10-11-2005, 02:58 PM
ppl must know to make the coments right, must be evidence of one or the other

pillow
10-11-2005, 03:33 PM
under boost? i doubt it...

The EXQZIT Civic runs a B20B block with B16A head doesn't it? Does it get rebuilt often or is it's motor fairly strong?

tinkerbell
10-11-2005, 03:38 PM
The EXQZIT Civic runs a B20B block with B16A head doesn't it? Does it get rebuilt often or is it's motor fairly strong?

running a stock B20B block is it?

i thought it was a resleeved LS/VTEC?

GSI-PSI
10-11-2005, 04:06 PM
I will get some times for a stock internal turbo DC2 and post up here once he gives me permission :)

How much boost are you running GSI-PSI?

As said previously 10psi, Im on your side wyn, id like to make comparasins as well

locote
10-11-2005, 04:24 PM
well i guess you could go the other way to.
what would a gsi be like runing high comp???

pillow
10-11-2005, 07:52 PM
running a stock B20B block is it?

i thought it was a resleeved LS/VTEC?

The car is running a B20B with B16A head, microtech computer, M&W coils x4, full exhaust without cat obviously, Edelbrock manifold and throttle body, Circuit worx stage 2 axles and spool. Big Garret turbo, HKS 60mm wastegate

^^ Posted by Online in the EXQZIT pb thread

saxman
10-11-2005, 08:30 PM
yeh, i had a choice of going typr, vtir and gsi - i always had my mind set on boosting my honda :D
if you purchased a b18b over a b18c with the intent on boosting it and making more power with the same work, you were misinformed by someone

superR
10-11-2005, 09:28 PM
this is a bit of a sh1t fight isnt it?
the be all and end all of ANY turbo motor........... cash in equalls power out.
sure the B18B may be weaker (dont know if this is true or not?) but an upgrade in internals would solve this. (correct?) An upgrade in internals on a b18c changes it charictoristics ( correct?)
brings me back to what i said
'$=Kw'
if you want to spend a little less on purchasing the engine (assuming a b18b cost less)and put a little more into moding it im sure a good result will be acheived. :thumbsup: or :thumbdwn:

ProECU
10-11-2005, 09:56 PM
this is a bit of a sh1t fight isnt it?
the be all and end all of ANY turbo motor........... cash in equalls power out.
sure the B18B may be weaker (dont know if this is true or not?) but an upgrade in internals would solve this. (correct?) An upgrade in internals on a b18c changes it charictoristics ( correct?)
brings me back to what i said
'$=Kw'
if you want to spend a little less on purchasing the engine (assuming a b18b cost less)and put a little more into moding it im sure a good result will be acheived. :thumbsup: or :thumbdwn:

OMG !

Its only taken 49posts, but at long last, the ONLY intelligent post in this thread!

superR
10-11-2005, 10:15 PM
y thank you.
i aint no mechanic.... but hey, its baisic knowledge. i am a building superviser and the same equation applies: big $ = a nicer home. simple really.

wynode
10-11-2005, 10:48 PM
Now this is the original post that started this thread off and I must admit I misunderstood that the question is in regards to internal 'strength' as opposed to which one will yield more power 'all other factors equal'


theres this thing on these forums going around where people saying the b18b block is stronger? eg: to support turbo. can anyone provide hard evidence to support this case? :confused:

need to know, so i know whether i should get dc4 gsi or dc2 vtir. (eventually turbod t28) :p bang 4 buk wise. :thumbsup:

any proffessional advise could be helpful!

:rolleyes:

Now tinkerbell has mentioned that the b18b's internals aren't stronger.........but is there any hard evidence to support this (I recall you made a good post re the head of the b18c and its strenths over the b18b), but what about the bottom end?

Oh and here's the info about a stock internal vti-r with just spoon cams + toda adj cam gears


13.722 @ 102.31 mph
60" 2.209
i made 170.6kws atw
actuator problem aswell. so boost comes on real late
i ran street legal semi slicks.

Edit: Added info about spoon cams + toda cam gears

wynode
10-11-2005, 10:50 PM
this is a bit of a sh1t fight isnt it?
the be all and end all of ANY turbo motor........... cash in equalls power out.
sure the B18B may be weaker (dont know if this is true or not?) but an upgrade in internals would solve this. (correct?) An upgrade in internals on a b18c changes it charictoristics ( correct?)
brings me back to what i said
'$=Kw'
if you want to spend a little less on purchasing the engine (assuming a b18b cost less)and put a little more into moding it im sure a good result will be acheived. :thumbsup: or :thumbdwn:
That's all good and great but we are talking stock for stock :P

tinkerbell
11-11-2005, 09:07 AM
Now this is the original post that started this thread off and I must admit I misunderstood that the question is in regards to internal 'strength' as opposed to which one will yield more power 'all other factors equal'

Now tinkerbell has mentioned that the b18b's internals aren't stronger.........but is there any hard evidence to support this (I recall you made a good post re the head of the b18c and its strenths over the b18b), but what about the bottom end?


ok, did you know that the B18B only uses 8mm rod bolts and the B18C uses 9mm rod bolts?

did you also know that the B18C has a bearing cap bridge and the B18B doesnt.

GSI-PSI
11-11-2005, 04:20 PM
ok, did you know that the B18B only uses 8mm rod bolts and the B18C uses 9mm rod bolts?

did you also know that the B18C has a bearing cap bridge and the B18B doesnt.

did u all know that it only takes 1 phonecall to find out which engine produces more power stock. There is proof at AVO that a vtec was getting 140kw at the wheels and mines getting 132kw at the wheels on the same boost.

did u also know that stock gsi's aint that strong because i have blown 2 of them, 1 stock and 1 on boost.

did u also know that every engine reacts differently to different drivers and how much they cane the f@#k outa the car.

did u know that two cars from factory can run completely different depending on who run them in.

did u know that this thread is getting more and more gay each day.

wynode
11-11-2005, 05:11 PM
did u know that this thread is getting more and more gay each day.

If only we had more constructive replies like tinkerbells

tinkerbell
17-11-2005, 10:01 PM
in addition,

here is an interesting article comparing the VTEC head vs non-VTEC head:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1000

it is well worth registering for that site just for the articles.

integrity
22-11-2005, 07:50 AM
if you want to put down the gsi integras down tinkerbell then maybe you should line up with one and see how good you will go.
my gsi is in the shop and be out in a few weeks with a full turbo setup if you can show me yours is much better then well meet in a few weeks for a test run.
in my eyes a gsi is much better to turbo because it doesnt mess with the computer in terms of the vtec kicking in.
vtec is to be vtec thats it ... putting forced induction on a car that already has its own form of "boost" can upset the fuel and air delivery causing too much combustion in the chambers.
gsi hasnt got that and i believe turboin them is much better ...
to some people i could be wrong but integra gsi and ls turbo go pretty high up in the ranks when it comes to turboing hondas.
if you force too much pressure on your motor by making a vtec and turbo kick in it wont last very long ...its already gotten into race mode after 4000RPM and making a turbo push it even harder doesnt sound really pretty.
but maybe we should line up ... im in sydney as well so maybe we can have a run to stop people in general from putting down the gsi integras.

LVNIT
22-11-2005, 08:27 AM
Hes not "putting down" the B18B engine mate, the original question in the thread was which engine is stronger, tinkerbell has simply given real facts as to the differences in each engine.

The fact of the matter is, the B18B does not flow as well as the B18C, read the tech article, there are restrictions in the B18B engine and differences in width and size of parts.

No one said the B18B was a crappy engine, sure you can make some good power, but the B18C is a 'better' engine in terms of the original question that was asked ;)

sever_all_ties
22-11-2005, 08:53 AM
if you want to put down the gsi integras down tinkerbell then maybe you should line up with one and see how good you will go.
my gsi is in the shop and be out in a few weeks with a full turbo setup if you can show me yours is much better then well meet in a few weeks for a test run.
in my eyes a gsi is much better to turbo because it doesnt mess with the computer in terms of the vtec kicking in.
vtec is to be vtec thats it ... putting forced induction on a car that already has its own form of "boost" can upset the fuel and air delivery causing too much combustion in the chambers.
gsi hasnt got that and i believe turboin them is much better ...
to some people i could be wrong but integra gsi and ls turbo go pretty high up in the ranks when it comes to turboing hondas.
if you force too much pressure on your motor by making a vtec and turbo kick in it wont last very long ...its already gotten into race mode after 4000RPM and making a turbo push it even harder doesnt sound really pretty.
but maybe we should line up ... im in sydney as well so maybe we can have a run to stop people in general from putting down the gsi integras.

You do realise the later model turbo engines brought out by toyota, nissan and even mitsubishi came out with the manufacturers versions of variable cam timing (vvti, nvcs, mivec) and such?

tinkerbell
22-11-2005, 08:59 AM
if you want to put down the gsi integras down tinkerbell then maybe you should line up with one and see how good you will go.

mate - i have run 13.7 in a Normally Aspirated LS Integra.

since these turbo GSi's seem to be able to run 13.8's or so, then i feel pretty comfortable...

what is your best time?

and as for this comment:


in my eyes a gsi is much better to turbo because it doesnt mess with the computer in terms of the vtec kicking in.

are you for real?!?!??! you can't be serious? :wave:

BlitZ
22-11-2005, 02:51 PM
im not stirring anyone..
but a b16a with 5psi in an EM1 normally nets a mid 13 sec 1/4 mile on st tyres..

LVNIT just has to prove it...........

Ill think that goes beyond your phone call comparision to AVO who utilises log style manifold....

its like comparing mugen extractors and hurricane headers

BlitZ
22-11-2005, 02:59 PM
And sorry to burst your bubble...
http://www.avoturboworld.com/news/honda_a4_small.pdf

chekc the link out.. Teg with stage one AVO kit produces over 240whp!

tinkerbell
22-11-2005, 03:03 PM
who's bubble do you think you are bursting by quoting *claimed* HP figures from a manufacturers website?

BlitZ
22-11-2005, 03:04 PM
Read below




did u all know that it only takes 1 phonecall to find out which engine produces more power stock. There is proof at AVO that a vtec was getting 140kw at the wheels and mines getting 132kw at the wheels on the same boost.

tinkerbell
22-11-2005, 03:05 PM
oh, OK,

well here is a B18C that makes over 600whp

http://www.evolutionmr.net/pics/turbocivic/DSC01539.JPG

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1212667

Q_ball
22-11-2005, 03:06 PM
relax fellas...lets jst all sell our 200+kw hondas and buy WRXs...lol - 99 models hehe :p

LVNIT
22-11-2005, 04:53 PM
At least we would have traction, its unknown to me at the moment :P

locote
22-11-2005, 07:07 PM
You do realise the later model turbo engines brought out by toyota, nissan and even mitsubishi came out with the manufacturers versions of variable cam timing (vvti, nvcs, mivec) and such?


i have not seen any vvti, mivec motors running a factory turbo.

as far a a nissan motor running a turbo the latest sr20det to come out only had intake cam advance(timing was advanced on intake cam)
but the R34 range did have Vneo RB's running turbos.
but the smaller 1.6lt and 2.0lt motors came out in 3 different versions, turbo(det), N/A(de) and NEO (vvt)

locote
22-11-2005, 07:10 PM
well i guess you could go the other way to.
what would a gsi be like runing high comp???


and and more agressive cams??

integrity
22-11-2005, 08:29 PM
as you all can see the nissan variable valve timing injection thing is built WITH a turbo and factory configured to run WITH a turbo
ahonda however is not made for aturbo especially with the vtec being so combustive in the engine after 4 grand.
tinkerbell i used to own a Ls integra and was considering turboing it ...
measure the power to weight ratio for the LS and the GSI integra
almost the same motor but GSI has 107 kw compared to the LS that has 96 kw.
and in regards to AVO showing the stats... they have literally showed me the stats of a turbo interga pulling inbetween 115 to 150 kw at the wheels ...
thats is easy 13's...
tell me how good you go on the street?
how well do you think you can do with a GTR or street tuned S15 ....?
you pulling 13's in your NA ls sounds ok have you got the time sheet??
also you have probably done all you can to it ... im onyl turboing with standard internals ..
jsut watch what you say because one day a gsi turbbo will be burning rubber in your face taking off

tinkerbell
22-11-2005, 08:50 PM
especially with the vtec being so combustive in the engine after 4 grand.

so do you think VTEC would be a negative?

seems most people would disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion... however mis-informed that is...



and in regards to AVO showing the stats... they have literally showed me the stats of a turbo interga pulling inbetween 115 to 150 kw at the wheels ...

both my Integras, LS and VTiR, have had over 120kW at the wheels


thats is easy 13's...

yes it is.



how well do you think you can do with a GTR or street tuned S15 ....?

relevence?



you pulling 13's in your NA ls sounds ok have you got the time sheet??

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/image.php?u=106&type=timeslip&dateline=1109904764


also you have probably done all you can to it ...
nah, stock B20B internals i.e. same block as CRV

just B16A head with ITR bolts-ons = hardly "all you can to it"



jsut watch what you say because one day a gsi turbbo will be burning rubber in your face taking off

yes, until then...

vinhy
22-11-2005, 08:52 PM
i have not seen any vvti, mivec motors running a factory turbo.

as far a a nissan motor running a turbo the latest sr20det to come out only had intake cam advance(timing was advanced on intake cam)
but the R34 range did have Vneo RB's running turbos.
but the smaller 1.6lt and 2.0lt motors came out in 3 different versions, turbo(det), N/A(de) and NEO (vvt)

the new evo 9 runs with mivec...the late model supras ran with vvti.

integrity
24-11-2005, 07:24 AM
a gsi running standard internals just with abolt on turbo and minor boost is enough to pull that time if not less if driven properly.
the relevance to seeing how you would do a against street tuned cars is that most street tuned cars average to run 14's or 13's ... thats why a et on the track and a time on the street is different ....
just wanted to see how a N/A would do
btw AVO stats are correct... being put on the dyno with a gsi on dyno pulling inbetween 120 to 150 kw depends on air temperature , condition of motor and tuning etc...

locote
24-11-2005, 07:11 PM
evo9 does have mivec but still makes same power as the previous non-mivec model.
so it only proves that the mivec makes no difference to performance under F/I

tinkerbell
24-11-2005, 07:28 PM
pretty generous use of the word "proves" there locote...

tinkerbell
24-11-2005, 07:43 PM
evo9 does have mivec but still makes same power as the previous non-mivec model.
so it only proves that the mivec makes no difference to performance under F/I

for example, taking the second article about the evo 9 i found,

it states:


Perhaps the biggest new feature to the Evolution's 1997cc powerplant is the adoption of variable valve timing on the intake system, or MIVEC as the Japanese car maker calls it (Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing Electronic Control system).

The MIVEC system helps the 16-valve 4G63 engine liberate more power at higher revs and more torque at lower revs,
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/mitsubishi-evo-9.htm

i guess peak power figures "prove" nothing eh?

integrity
30-11-2005, 07:49 AM
yeah but engines weith VVT-I or MIVEC variable valve timing that come standard with turbo are made to work "WITH" a turbo.
honda motors arent.
our V-TEC motor is made to kick in with our own type of boost which is V-TEC but overall the GSI doesnt have that restriction ... its naturally aspirated with no V-TEC so it can continue going up in the revs with no extra boost whatsoever.
the vtir motor is a good motor no doubt about it ... but in terms of turboing a n/a motor out of the 2 i would go the GSI ....
they both arent meant to be turboed YES but the gsi has no hold back ...
even though it has been assumed a VTIR will pulll more power how long can the engine last being put under the pressure of V-TEC and boost?

LVNIT
30-11-2005, 08:44 AM
It has a hold back, its been said 50 billion times in this thread. The B18B does not produce as much power above 6000rpm, for the simple fact if does not flow as well farken.

VTEC isnt a restriction! YOU can turbo your stock GSI and when the turbo hondas @ WSID is organised, im sure there will be a b18c there who you can race and take you to school.

Its been documented, its all over the internet and the people here who know their stuff are even telling you. This is not to say the B18B is a crap engine, because its not. But the thread is comparing it to the b18c, which happens to be better :)

sever_all_ties
30-11-2005, 10:51 AM
Quote from 'Speed' magazine 021 in the tech torque section ("She's in there. I soarer!" letter) "You are right, the vvt-i 1jz-gte is an extremely elusive beast. They are, however, a magic piece of kit, addressing the (very few) shortcomings of the original 1jz-gte twin-turbo design and improving torque, fuel economy and - even though Toyota doesn't admit it - even power. Side by side, we had a dead stock vvt-i Soarer clock the standing quarter mile in 13.8sec, while the twin-turbo version struggles around the low-14s. That should tell you something useful, hopefully"

From what ive heard, to put a turbo with vtec together just takes tuning like everything else. In my opinion if you start with a better engine, then you'll end up with a better engine mod for mod.

saxman
30-11-2005, 04:35 PM
yeah but engines weith VVT-I or MIVEC variable valve timing that come standard with turbo are made to work "WITH" a turbo.
honda motors arent.
our V-TEC motor is made to kick in with our own type of boost which is V-TEC but overall the GSI doesnt have that restriction ... its naturally aspirated with no V-TEC so it can continue going up in the revs with no extra boost whatsoever.
the vtir motor is a good motor no doubt about it ... but in terms of turboing a n/a motor out of the 2 i would go the GSI ....
they both arent meant to be turboed YES but the gsi has no hold back ...
even though it has been assumed a VTIR will pulll more power how long can the engine last being put under the pressure of V-TEC and boost?
VTEC(not V-TEC) doesn't boost anything. It's not it's "own type of boost". You're switching to a different cam profile. That's ALL. The different cam profile is designed to flow better up high and make more power up there.

The ONLY legitimate argument that one could try to make about the b18b being better for boost is the lower compression ratio which makes it less prone to detonation. Not long ago, the common place thought was that high comp was bad, low comp was good. Now, people are starting to see the light.

The B18c is a superior platform to boost on in every possible way.

integrity
01-12-2005, 07:47 AM
no waht i meant was when VTEC kicks in it forces more pressure onto the head ...
if you force more pressure on the head and now adding in forced induction to try to make it work harder then its capable of doing in high revs it could cause wear and tear.
im not putting down the Vtir motor i dont have anything against it but everyone sees things differently and i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC

saxman
01-12-2005, 08:46 AM
no waht i meant was when VTEC kicks in it forces more pressure onto the head ...
if you force more pressure on the head and now adding in forced induction to try to make it work harder then its capable of doing in high revs it could cause wear and tear.
im not putting down the Vtir motor i dont have anything against it but everyone sees things differently and i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC
how exactly is it forcing more pressure on the head?

what about all those turbo cars running more agressive cams that some how make way more power even though they're "forcing more perssure on the head"?

Further more, if all that extra pressure at high revs is so bad for the head of the vtec engine, imagine the non vtec engine with all the pressure from the turbo on the inferior designed head. It must really be getting damaged.

Oddly, it's rarely the head that suffers any damage when things go wrong with a f/i set up.

Just out of curiosity, are you just repeating what someone once told you? The stuff you're saying really doesn't make much sense with how vtec works. I know lots of people go around spewing bs to people that don't know much of whats going on, then those people take it as fact.

Q_ball
01-12-2005, 09:29 AM
i thought this thread was settled that the b18c is 'stronger' not 'better', but STRONGER than the b18b?!

poweredbyhonda
02-12-2005, 07:32 AM
Like to prove it down the race track? B18C turbo will own any b18B turbo unless you are comparing a fully built b18B running ridiculous amounts of boost vs a stock b18c on boost. Stock vs stock, vtec will own hands down.

tinkerbell
02-12-2005, 09:02 AM
i believe the best way to turbo is no VTEC

wow, so very wrong, yet so convinced you are right...

i admire your tenacity.

integrity
02-12-2005, 07:42 PM
well its up to everybody what they believe but i still see the gsi the better alternative .
vtir has more power YES but in terms of forcing induction i still believe the gsi can take more boost and be less of a headache if tuned right

fly_vti
02-12-2005, 09:16 PM
Get Out Of My Thread You Ba5tards

saxman
03-12-2005, 07:41 AM
well its up to everybody what they believe but i still see the gsi the better alternative .
vtir has more power YES but in terms of forcing induction i still believe the gsi can take more boost and be less of a headache if tuned right
that perfectly fine that you believe that, but would you please tell us why you think that. I'm really curious to see your reasoning.


And yes, technically the b18b may be able to take more psi of boost than the b18c out of the same turbo set up before detonation, however, psi isn't everything.

(*warning, I'm about to use arbitrary numbers to make a point, don't quote me that such and such set up will actually make these numbers*)

Lets say we have a b18b and a b18c, both running on a gt28rs, all extra modifications are the same.

Because of it's much more efficient, etc, at say 9 psi, we may get 120 extra hp over stock.

The b18b, because of it's lower compression ratio, can probably be bumped a few psi higher before we're running into issues, but because of it's lower efficiency, lower comp ratio, etc at 12 psi, it may only make 90 hp over stock.

Basically, the point is, the b18c may not be able to take quite as many psi, but it does much better things with that extra air. Also, because of the stronger internals, it will support more hp(because after all, the strength of the internals are more decided on how much extra power it can take then extra psi).

(*end warning about arbitrary numbers. The numbers may not be real, the principal is*)

GSI-PSI
03-12-2005, 06:56 PM
why doesnt someone actually go out and put a turbo on a stock vtec and see the difference for yaself, seriously i believe most people here are just too scared to try it. Notice the only ones debating about it dont even have their teg turbocharged, Myself and Qball on the other hand are enjoying out turbo tegs and laughing at all these petty arguements lol. Seriously guys, were all honda fans and some of us love boost, so who cares which one goes faster, just go out and get it for f#@k sake. Just make sure you get the right person to tune the thing or the b18b could quite easily beat the b18c. :D

saxman
03-12-2005, 08:29 PM
why doesnt someone actually go out and put a turbo on a stock vtec and see the difference for yaself, seriously i believe most people here are just too scared to try it. Notice the only ones debating about it dont even have their teg turbocharged, Myself and Qball on the other hand are enjoying out turbo tegs and laughing at all these petty arguements lol. Seriously guys, were all honda fans and some of us love boost, so who cares which one goes faster, just go out and get it for f#@k sake. Just make sure you get the right person to tune the thing or the b18b could quite easily beat the b18c. :D
I've turboed several b16a's. Not a b18c, but a stock vtec none the less.

I have nothing against turbo b18b's, I just would like to see any reasonable explination as to why people think that it's a better engine to boost then the b18c.

kousoku
03-12-2005, 08:50 PM
buy a skyline and join sau, will make a few people happy :D

otherwise, b18c.

2MPRSS
03-12-2005, 08:58 PM
my b18c setup will be ready soon my setup is similar to q balls but diffrent brands used,see how i go

will keep you people updated on the new turbo b18c on the forums

string
03-12-2005, 09:24 PM
-nuke-

string
03-12-2005, 09:30 PM
-nuke-

Q_ball
03-12-2005, 09:31 PM
b18a??

string
03-12-2005, 09:45 PM
-nuke-

pillow
03-12-2005, 10:00 PM
A B18A/B with a big turbo cam designed to make power up to around 8000 rpm will rip a B18C a new one. More capacity means more torque means more power and less lag.


I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but aren't both motors 1.8L in capacity:rolleyes:

2MPRSS
03-12-2005, 10:30 PM
seriously.... there is like more then 20 kw diffrence with the b18b and b18c in stock form right? isnt it common sense that the b18c will make more power with the same setup used for both engines?

saxman
03-12-2005, 10:35 PM
Far cheaper to buy in the first place, far easier to replace parts if/when they kick the bucket. More torque. Longer gears for less no traction. Did I say cheaper?

Until you get into the range of rebuilding internals and going for huge hp numbers, cost to speed ratio will always be won by the b18a/b.

If we are taking out costs, of course the b18c is going to win out. You are revving 20% higher, so there is 20% more power for the same torque right there. And that 20% extra redline will allow you to use a turbo which doens't hit full boost until say, 5500 rpm. On a B18a/b this would be death and would not be very fun at all.
well, at least someone is making an effort.

Cost wise, fair enough, it may be more economical. There are a lot of people basically saying that it's a better engine from a technical standpoint. That's what I'd love to hear about.

string
03-12-2005, 11:59 PM
-nuke-

string
04-12-2005, 12:03 AM
-nuke-

string
04-12-2005, 12:08 AM
-nuke-

GSI-PSI
04-12-2005, 05:04 AM
my b18c setup will be ready soon my setup is similar to q balls but diffrent brands used,see how i go

will keep you people updated on the new turbo b18c on the forums

Um yer cool but did you miss the point when i said to compare a stock b18c lol

GSI-PSI
04-12-2005, 05:20 AM
When you take into account modifications, then they prety much become the same thing, except the b18a/b will be a pig down low since it doesn't have the low cam to keep things nice.

Haha you cant be serious can ya? A pig down low....erm if only you knew. Yeah sure4 it would be a pig down low if ya using the wrong size turbo and it takes forever to spool up but mate if people were wise they'd use a smaller size turbo etc etc etc. I honestly dont think a b18b would be quicker than a b18c using the exact same setup as what ive got but seriously guys, all ya doin is making up alot of crap to try proving a point thats already been proven.

EXACT SAME TURBO SETUP WITH BOTH HEALTHY ENGINES THE B18C HAS BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE MORE POWER ON THE DYNO

but get a b18c or b18b with high km thats tired and your kw will drop. (as this was the case with my first engine)

I have not once said in this thread that a b18b will have more kw than a b18c and there are definate facts that the b18c should be a stronger option. But at the end of the day when ya on the track its down to the driver when the lights go GREEN :cool:

2MPRSS
04-12-2005, 09:15 AM
Um yer cool but did you miss the point when i said to compare a stock b18c lol

what point?a stock b18c has more power then a b18b doesnt?whats ur point again didnt understand?

saxman
04-12-2005, 09:23 AM
what point?a stock b18c has more power then a b18b doesnt?whats ur point again didnt understand?
the point I was trying to make in that regards is that the b18c, given an identical turbo set up, will show a greater increase in power than the b18b on the dyno

2MPRSS
04-12-2005, 10:02 AM
saxman are u and gsi psi same person?i was refering to him but again thanks for ur awnser and thats what i really ment on my previous post,sumone should close this thread

string
04-12-2005, 02:15 PM
-nuke-

BLKCRX
04-12-2005, 03:22 PM
I think your all missing the point of reality, and your all trying to make justification of internet myths

Fact the same turbo kit, with the same turbo, with the same ECU, regardless of how much boost, with the same settings the b18c engine will ALWAYS Make more power and torque throughout the whole rev range than the b18a/b period.

Hell even if you design the perfect matched setup for the b18a/b engine with a correctly sized turbo to suit the engine, put that setup on a b18c engine and it WILL make more power

Fact I’ve tuned many b18a/b setups and even more b18c setups, the b18c wins every time. You can talk and say what you like, but the b18c engine on the same boost level will always have more power than a b18a/b. As for the b18a/b holding more boost than a b18c that’s crap also stupid internet myths ! Both engines on a stock form I wouldn’t run more than 14psi of boost, they both have the same upper limit to the amount of boost you can run.



Regards James

string
04-12-2005, 03:59 PM
-nuke-

jimmeh
04-12-2005, 04:02 PM
this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

BLKCRX
04-12-2005, 04:17 PM
The B18A/B will always make more torque below say, 5800rpm- FALSE !!!
That is not true !! stop quoting internet bull-crap !

How many engines have you built? How many engines have you tuned ? how many b18b have you built how many b18c have you built, how many turbo Honds have you worked on ! how many custom turbo’s have you designed, how many manifolds have you back to back tested, how much research and design have you done please tell me its more than 100 cars and they I might start to give you credit for what your saying, quoting what other internet donkey’s say is nothing more internet MYTH.

b/w that graph you qouted is nothing more than data plotted on excel ! I wouldn’t trust that data with a pinch of salt !

FACT = iv done the testing, iv done the research, iv done the back to back testing, iv designed kits, iv tuned 100’s of setups Australia wide and the b18c always comes out on top. Do the research your self ! and please prove me wrong, until then my data colleted from years of experience stands above and beyond anything you say.


James waves the bull-crap flag to internet myth !

BLKCRX
04-12-2005, 04:19 PM
this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

Thats so ture in every way ! you can't turn water into wine !! and you can't make a donkey of a engine into a tinger !!

Regards James

GSI-PSI
04-12-2005, 05:10 PM
You are wrong.

When you take into account modifications, then they prety much become the same thing, except the b18a/b will be a pig down low since it doesn't have the low cam to keep things nice.


The B18A/B will always make more torque below say, 5800rpm. You cannot argue this. A Cam designed for peak torque much lower plus extra capacity will always win out in the lower regions.



You have some nerve telling James that he is wrong when ya cant even remember ya own lies. The top paragraph shows an earlier statement you made about a b18b being laggy down low and now ya saying it will always make more power down low.

MAKE UP YA MIND WILL YA

Careful James, with quotes like that he'll put you out of business ;)

I definately wouldnt take my car to "strings workshop" if he had one, cos he'd try to STRING you along into the internet myth world.

Da1nONLY
04-12-2005, 05:37 PM
this topic was covered in hot4s not to long ago. a basic rule of thumb is. if you have a motor that has 100kw and the other has 120kw. the second engine will always gonna be 20kw ahead. this is going on the fact that u do the same mods to both motors. there has to be a freakish occurance that will allow the first motor to gain 20kw without a similar change happening to the second motor.

I totally agree with this :thumbsup:
How hard is it to understand basic mathematics??...
come on folks.. this is 2 unit maths back in high school...
It's just logic...given the same setup, i.e same turbo, same boost etc...given that this application will add an additional 45Kw to your engine. We'll take the results of the 2 engine mentioned above.

100Kw + 45Kw = 145Kw...
120Kw + 45Kw = 165Kw...
Therefore the 120Kw will achieve more power..
Therefore the 120Kw is greater than the 100Kw...

Thus...
B18C = 120Kw
B18B = 100Kw

B18C > B18B

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out the above results.

ProECU
04-12-2005, 06:28 PM
I totally agree with this :thumbsup:
How hard is it to understand basic mathematics??...
come on folks.. this is 2 unit maths back in high school...
It's just logic...given the same setup, i.e same turbo, same boost etc...given that this application will add an additional 45Kw to your engine. We'll take the results of the 2 engine mentioned above.

100Kw + 45Kw = 145Kw...
120Kw + 45Kw = 165Kw...
Therefore the 120Kw will achieve more power..
Therefore the 120Kw is greater than the 100Kw...

Thus...
B18C = 120Kw
B18B = 100Kw

B18C > B18B

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out the above results.

Shit! Thats it!

I never knew modelling engine output was soooo easy !

Thanks for clearing it up for everyone.

Do the Honda Engineers know about this formula?

ProECU
04-12-2005, 06:58 PM
I think the Mods need to implement a points system whereby you need to "earn" the right to post in the Tech Forums.

jimmeh
04-12-2005, 07:45 PM
i just realise my statement sounds messed up. im not saying that if mod both motors the same then at the end of of your gonna be 20kw ahead. i meant to say if u start of with a better motor then your always gona be ahead, granted you do the same mods. (not necessary by 20kw cos the two motors will respond diff to each mod) I hope that make more sense

kousoku
04-12-2005, 07:57 PM
This thread is almost as painfull as listening to Tinkerbell's rants.

almost...


sif bag tink, hes mad!!!!!!!

saxman
04-12-2005, 09:44 PM
the real question, of course, is what if we're using stock injectors on these turbo set ups.

GSI-PSI
04-12-2005, 09:48 PM
the real question, of course, is what if we're using stock injectors on these turbo set ups.

you may as well start another thread

saxman
05-12-2005, 07:02 AM
you may as well start another thread

it was a joke
re:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32015

GSI-PSI
05-12-2005, 12:35 PM
it was a joke
re:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32015

lmaooooo

integrity
06-12-2005, 07:42 AM
the vtir produces more power then the gsi bottom line
however some people reading this thread own vtir `s and gsi`s
it is up to them to do what they like to their motor
some people might go all out and do internals on either motors
the vtir is a good motor no doubt about it
it has more power yes but some people might decide to turbo non vtec engines instead understand?
just let the people decide with what they want to do with there own motors.
both engines are good to turbo ... thats it

GSI-PSI
06-12-2005, 01:19 PM
the vtir produces more power then the gsi bottom line
however some people reading this thread own vtir `s and gsi`s
it is up to them to do what they like to their motor
some people might go all out and do internals on either motors
the vtir is a good motor no doubt about it
it has more power yes but some people might decide to turbo non vtec engines instead understand?
just let the people decide with what they want to do with there own motors.
both engines are good to turbo ... thats it

agreed.

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 01:23 PM
but the bottom line is that if i personally had to choose between a B18C and a B18B to turbo charge,

i would choose the B18C, for the reasons i have stated.

that's it.

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 01:26 PM
oh, and so would 76.62% of the people who responded to this poll...

GSI-PSI
06-12-2005, 01:29 PM
but the bottom line is that if i personally had to choose between a B18C and a B18B to turbo charge,

i would choose the B18C, for the reasons i have stated.

that's it.

lol you always have to chip ya 2cents worth in. I think we all know your opinion by now tinky

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 01:35 PM
yeah, i have a probelm with the way people try to have the last say and try to think that they can change the intention of the post with some soft "ohh, let people decide what to do with their own engines" wimpy crap.

when the actual post is about "if there is a choice"

GSI-PSI
06-12-2005, 01:40 PM
yeah, i have a probelm with the way people try to have the last say and try to think that they can change the intention of the post with some soft "ohh, let people decide what to do with their own engines" wimpy crap.

when the actual post is about "if there is a choice"

Well if you dont like "Whimpy Crap" then why dont you put your money where your mouth is and go turbo a vtec. Dont speak 2 me about whimpy crap...

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 01:43 PM
i have no need for turbo...

GSI-PSI
06-12-2005, 02:05 PM
Then you have no need to open your mouth. By the way those times in my signature was with an old almost blown engine running on 7psi and the gearbox at the time only got into 3rd that one run.

owww its tinkerbell with such a gay name

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 02:18 PM
old almost blown engine

gotta love those B18B's ;)

GSI-PSI
06-12-2005, 02:37 PM
the engine was almost blown before i turbocharged it. lmao

tinkerbell
06-12-2005, 02:41 PM
well, your 13.8 is to be comended then :thumbsup:

lucky you could swap it all straight over, and that kinda explains why you are such a die-hard B18B supporter... it has worked well for you...

integrity
07-12-2005, 07:47 AM
tinkerbell this issuee is sorted
the end of the day the owner chooses which car he wants to turbo
if me and gsi-psi are such b18b supporters what does that make you ???
the only reason your a b18c supporter is cause you have one
noone needs to hear your crap anymore ... go back a few pages and you might see that people find you annoying...
seriously stop the talking

tinkerbell
07-12-2005, 09:14 AM
the last thing i will say is that i dont have a B18C...

2MPRSS
07-12-2005, 02:18 PM
the guy that started the thread has made a choice now and picking up a integra vti-r on friday and he will be turbocharging it so case closed

yourfather
07-12-2005, 03:18 PM
I think the Mods need to implement a points system whereby you need to "earn" the right to post in the Tech Forums.

I dont think that's the issue, I think you should be able to START threads, but only people with cred should be able to respond to it.

pillow
07-12-2005, 03:27 PM
I dont think that's the issue, I think you should be able to START threads, but only people with cred should be able to respond to it.

All well and good in theory, but there are many people on here that have a wealth of knowledge but rarely post, therefore how do they have 'cred'?:)

Integra-GSi
29-08-2014, 07:33 PM
A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

NeedVtec
29-08-2014, 07:42 PM
A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

O rly?

Very helpful post

Regards getfkdm8

EKVTIR-T
29-08-2014, 07:46 PM
dat was a strong bump

9 years hehe

Integra-GSi
29-08-2014, 07:48 PM
Better to contribute than start a new thread. Long term perhaps not as strong, short term cheaper. You be the judge...

Glocker
29-08-2014, 08:18 PM
O rly?

Very helpful post

Regards getfkdm8
This

Also prices on powerful ecus have tumbled. Nowadays you can find tuners doing 1.2k for tune n s300 chip compared to 1.2k alone for a power fc.

carayan
29-08-2014, 11:00 PM
A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

VVT?
$2-3k for an ecu?

you really dont have a clue hey

mocchi
29-08-2014, 11:07 PM
gsi engine is definitely the best engine in the market atm.

curtis265
30-08-2014, 03:59 PM
A B18b has a lower compression ratio of 9.2:1 which is better suited to boost, you can run 10psi easy on stock internals, without the hassles of variable valve timing you can also run cheaper engine management systems. The case is open and shut, you can run more boost, more easily, more cheaply with a GSi over a VTiR or Type R. This is an argument of economics and cost benefit analysis, you will always be ahead with a GSi as you're starting with a motor that is going to cost you less of an outlay to begin with.

Trust me, I've been down this road, turbo on variable valve timing with after market ECU is a major pain in the arse, you're better off starting with a non-VVT engine. Why would you spend $2-$3k on an ECU to run VVT when you can spend $800 on an ECU that will handle non-VVT just fine? That alone solves the argument.

What VVT?

integraR
30-08-2014, 04:01 PM
gsi's go for 13k

Integra-GSi
30-08-2014, 08:01 PM
VVT?
$2-3k for an ecu?

you really dont have a clue hey

VTEC same stuff yeah... just more correct acronym for variable valve timing... not so straight forward with a lot of aftermarket ECUs.

mocchi
30-08-2014, 08:06 PM
s300 is around 700-800. mind blown.

Integra-GSi
30-08-2014, 08:08 PM
Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

grifty
30-08-2014, 08:23 PM
Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

mind = blown

A hondata S300 will work for vtec and non-vtec motors. approx cost $650-800. Even a S100 or S200 is fine and they're cheaper.

Tuning a vtec vs non-vtec pricing wise is pretty much the same..... maybe $100-200 difference??

vtec>non-vtec

end thread./

curtis265
30-08-2014, 08:34 PM
Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...

i'm not asking what VVT is, I'm asking why you think VTEC is the same as VVT

Glocker
30-08-2014, 08:38 PM
Simple explanation can't be stuffed, increase, valve lift and duration, not special to Honda. Allows different valve timing and lift at different speeds. Non VVT same valve timing all the time, less performance in theory as valves always run in same timing for open/shut, less aggressive cams also generally, but more simple to operate. Easy to get running on anything.... More complex engine, more complex ECU generally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

First made by Porsche in the 1950s so yeah...
Even with the shitty VCT of the nissan engines (late sr20det, r33/r34 rb26dett) they had better mid range, top end and response than their non VCT counterparts. See MINE'S GTR.

To say that b18b is better than their VTEC counter parts...lol, maybe in cost outlay when you are rebuilding an engine from top to bottom with balanced and forged internals with aggressive race cams with no concern for daily drivabilty. But 99% of turbo b series are not built like that so your case is extremely limited since a stronger better high flowing VTEC head that can accommodate a wider power range is only a few hundred dollars more.

Integra-GSi
30-08-2014, 08:42 PM
Yes, simply a cost outlay exorcise, didn't know exact cost of Honda ECUs so pulling on Toyota knowledge a bit their. Perhaps a very narrow example. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

NeedVtec
30-08-2014, 10:03 PM
I don't even know anymore, you need to teach yourself to shut the fuk up

http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net/image_cache/1337789829519698.jpg

Lukezen27
01-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Dc2 vtir turbo! :)

EKVTIR-T
01-09-2014, 01:16 PM
JDM FD2r turbo

mocchi
01-09-2014, 01:37 PM
s14 turbo

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/customavatars/avatar24136_24.gif

u mad?
01-09-2014, 01:40 PM
rx7 fd non turbo

Vvvtec
01-09-2014, 02:09 PM
turbo turbo

u mad?
01-09-2014, 02:58 PM
non turbo b15c9 fd5 type r turbo