How much power should i get?

[Paul_Dc5]

Hi my name is paul

Just like to know if i had dC5, Hondata K100ECU,exhaust system,Mugen airbox, Toda Spec A2 cams, valve springs,head gasket and a X-force heads. How much power should i be get out of it, cos rite now im only gettin 132kw@wheels at APC Dyno does that sound rite to u.Im not happy with it at all, i ask James from Hondata if that was the max power that he can get out of it n he said yes that is the max power that he can get out of it. And here the funny thing about it my friend has a Dc5 with Hondata K100ECU,exhaust system and Intake, which is only road tuning and has 131@wheels and when i race him he kicks my ass Around 2m lolol and dont tell me its the drive too cos when i drive his car and he got in to my car this time it won by 4m to 5m
James told me that i would get around 140 to 150kws@wheels When I was askin him about Toda he told me that it was all that so tell me what went wrong than JAMES

One last thing on the day at i went to get the car i ask him Y i only got 132 and my friend got 131kws he told me that it was a diff time diff day my friend was ask about that too n u know what he had to say to him "TELL me How much he wins u by when u race Paul" lolol Yer rite funny one
the day after i race him we went to get a Dyno at the same place same time i got 127 he got 124kws@wheels


I be put up the Dyno up soon so u can see it for urself

I like to know what u have to say about this

[bennjamin]

without getting technical at all .... the end result is mroe than JUST a "peak kw/hp" numerical value btw.

[VTEC16]

this thread will probably get locked. But James and hondata have an awesome record on this forum, so i guess this probably wont change most ppl's minds.

You and your friend have quite similar mods. You might find that while your car only makes a little more peak power, it has more area under the power curve.

Dyno's give different results in different conditions - thats not just a line spun by james.

Also - different engines make different power. maybe your mate has a better engine from the factory then you. that may be a fact.

play nice.

[JINRAI]

thats quite alot done to the internals and the numbers isnt too impressive...hows the car running overall? how much did u dump into all that? plus tuning, etc.

[X8TEENX]

bit curious about your exhaust system..maybe will get different result for it

[SAWAKITA]

Hondata K100ECU,exhaust system and Intake make 131@wheels sound right to me, because I made approx 117kw@wheel with just a fujutsubo powergetter cat back on my Type S.

With all your mods 132kw@wheel don't sound right.
Have you try different tuner?

[Paul_Dc5]

The car was runnin at 124.5kws@wheels i was so happy with it
so i put out $4300 i only got 3kws more from it, i went bck to the same Dyno at 8:30am n made 127kws and the 124.5kws was at 2pm.I ask some poeple about it n they told me that cams, valve springs,head gasket r no good at all u only have them if u rebuild ur hold Eng to a 2.4Eng so is this ture ?



X8TEENX :well this is what i'm about to do now to use the parts of my friend car n put it on my n see how much diff it makes i find out by Friday

VTEC16 :like i said we went on the same Dyno same day same time after james give as the car back, dont get me wrong i thnk james is one of the best there is but just not with my car that all.he told me on that day that he needs the car like around 9am cos he was goin bck down melb at 8pm that nite so i told him that the car wont be done till 2pm-3pm. i ask if he has the time to do the job rite he said he has to see, i give him the car at 2:45pm
he call me at 5:50 n told me it was done.i did tell him dont worry if u cant do it i wait till next time when u come up just map it for me for now. So do u think he did it rite or not

[Paul_Dc5]

Hondata K100ECU,exhaust system and Intake make 131@wheels sound right to me, because I made approx 117kw@wheel with just a fujutsubo powergetter cat back on my Type S.

With all your mods 132kw@wheel don't sound right.
Have you try different tuner?

im changin the heads than gettin a diff tuner
well for APC Dyno its always higher too
i got a friend with Dc5 with only Ecu,exhaust system, Intake and heads making 139kws@wheels but if it was at Apc it be around 149-153 around there i put his Dyno up to so u dont think im bs

[Paul_Dc5]

this thread will probably get locked. But James and hondata have an awesome record on this forum, so i guess this probably wont change most ppl's minds.

You and your friend have quite similar mods. You might find that while your car only makes a little more peak power, it has more area under the power curve.

Dyno's give different results in different conditions - thats not just a line spun by james.

Also - different engines make different power. maybe your mate has a better engine from the factory then you. that may be a fact.

play nice.


My mates car is a very suck car mate so much things has gone wrong with that car its not funny at all like i said i like james i think he is one of the best but he didnt do a good job with my car that all
when i put the Dyno up u will see what im talkin about.

[fried]

im still trying to make sense of ur english. sorry.

can u start by LISTING your mods in POINT FORM; and then LISTING the mods on ur friends car in POINT FORM. just to compare. (include any information relevant, such as tyres, wheel size, suspension mods, ICE, car model, transmission.. etc)

[DOSHBTEK]

hrmmm sounds like you have a dodgy car... hehe

[BLKCRX]

Hey Paul, let me see if I can re answer some of your questions in writing.
Firstly comparing any to cars, on a dyno is something that’s very difficult to do and the only way to really tell is to do what you have already done and go out and race. Fact is proven is your car is slower, even thow it has more peak power. This can also be more than likely proven by over lapping dyno graphs of the to cars and seeing the difference, I bet the power under the curve tells a very different story, in fact I bet your friends car makes more power under the curve ? WHY .. well read below.

If I remember though your to cars are most certainly different.

Your car has the following key modifications.
X force Extractors (Craper than stock)
Mugen intake (same as stock with restrictor)
Toda cams A2
Hondata K100

Your friends car has the following key modifications
Stock Headers (better than x force )
Injen Cold air intake (Better than stock )
Hondata K100

Now comes the interesting part like iv told you in person.

Fact Mugen intakes are NO better than the stock intake with the restrictor. Centrax Auto proved this at APC more than 2 years ago, having the car on the dyno with the stock intake, then installing the mugen intake produced ZERO increase in power. I believe nick from APC even told me they re put on the stock intake again just to double check. Fact is this intake is no better than stock, with dyno proven results.

Fact when you remove the Stock restrictor you get around 18HP increase in power everywhere, this is also dyno proven with results.

Fact the injen CAI works 1 – 3HP better than modifying the stock air box. Dyno Proven.

Fact the injen style CAI is one of the best intake setups available for DC5 r
Now when you compare the to cars you have one car with a very nice intake (injen) that breaths very nicely, and then you have your intake mugen which is proven to be no better than stock which doesn’t breath nicely) so all a sudden your car most certainly isn’t getting the air it requires.

Now lets look at your exhaust, X force extractors vs Stock.

Now I remember telling you time and time again that Toda Extractors are by far the best there is out there, period. I told you its Toda headers or nothing at all, and yes again this is a classic example of how carp x force headers are, in your case you would have been much better to leave the standard headers on. The standard headers are nice 4-2-1 headers, where the xforce are a 4-1 header which merger the exhaust ports worst than iv ever see any headers do. Just because you replace some parts with a aftermarket part it doesn’t mean its going to be any better than stock. Sometimes it is worse !!

In fact the last time I talked to you before coming up to Brisbane you said you had stock headers, then when I saw your car in person all a sudden there were x force headers on it ! trust me this is a mistake, sell them and buy Toda Headers. we have car's all over Australia making more power on stock headers with Toda Cams.

So to summaries up all the information above, all a sudden you have a engine with Toda A2 cam’s that MUST have lots of air to work, and must have a nice exhaust system to work. Power of any NA car is found in the intake and Exhaust setup. And with your car you have changed these things to in fact a setup which is worst than stock ! how can the cam’s work if there not in the correct environment ?

These Toda cam’s are dyno proven and they do work, although if the combination is not correct than most certainly how can they work to there full effect.

The cam’s produce a very linear power cruise in-fact your dyno graph is just one straight line, the more you rev the more power you make all the way to 9000rpm, its just the combination of your current modifications have let you down.

By all means try another tuner, but do what I recommend, sell your over priced mugen intake, and replace it with a intake that works, sell your x force headers and put on a set of Toda headers, and re tune your car. Or if you must put the stock headers back on, which will flow much better than x force headers.

That said, engine health can also make a very big difference in power out put of any engine, but I truly don’t believe it’s the issue here, it’s a parts combination which is the problem.

Remember the previous owner of your car already had hondata installed and tuned and I was able to use this as a starting point for your car. This is much quicker as you don’t need to set the car up, configure all the sensors, cold starts, idles, open loop / close loop operations and the list of configurable things goes on and on. Your car is most certainly producing maximum power for the modifications that you have, tuning can not MAKE magically power, max power is what ever it is once the car is tuned. And yes I agree with you the car should be making more power, but when you consider the key mistakes in your modification choice of parts it makes it very easy to see why the car is’s responding well to the cams.

Let the engine breath !! give it some Toda headers, and a nice intake and re tune your car for the NEW correct modifications watch your car turn into a animal !

Hope that helps explain a few things like I told you over the phone, if you have any further questions feel free to call me my phone is always on, or post here.

Regards James

[BLKCRX]

Also just to add to my above post regarding power, everyone who ever talks to me always ask’s the same question, how much power will I have. I tell everyone exactly the same thing, if I could predict how much power you have I would be predicting tatslotto numbers instead and would be a billionaire by now. How can you predict power when there are so many unknowns, especially when you use a device such as a dyno which Is a tuning tool, not a accurate measuring device, before you even consider engine differences.

Everyone then asks me, how much power have other cars made with the similar modifications, this is a much better question to ask, although has no relevance’s to answering the first question, as you can’t expect car A to be the same as car B.

Answering the question truthfully relies on the huge amount of data we have from a very large database created around Australia by many workshops and tuners, listing lots of modifications this enables us to give us a guide on how much power a car should be making, again it’s a “should” not a will.

And yes when you asked me how much do cars with a nice intake and Toda spec A2 cams with stock headers, I replied it should be somewhere around 140kw. (plus or minus 8kw) This fact still does run true and has been proven time and time again. If you would have mentioned the additionally parts in question I most certainly would have given you a different answer. Question who recommended you to buy these headers what made you choose these ? From talking to your friend on the phone I hear this was more a spontaneous last minute modification. ? sadly it appears these modifications moved the power of your car in the wrong direction.

Regards James

[Paul_Dc5]

When Wilson and I got our cars back from you, you said that my car will beat Wilson's big time but it was the other way around. You can't say that its my tyres because I replaced them with my 16 inch stock ones that have only done 3000k's and I still lost to him.

I'm changing all the parts that you've recommended - the stock headers and the custom cold intake (like Wilson's). I'll be finding out by tonight whether your theory is right. And if it turns out to be a disappointment there goes $800 and my theory stands - that the tuning wasn't up to scratch.

All these mods and I only get 140. You're telling me Hondata and Toda are all that - I don't think so. Tell me why my friend has a different ecu, mugen airbox, headers and exhaust system and would be pushing around 153kw @wheels at APC dyno. Can you do better than that using your Hondata and Toda?

By the way my friend doesn't have an Injen Cold air intake - it's a custom.

Regards

Paul

[BLKCRX]

It’s a custom copy of a injen intake ;) which well the design is so similar. That design is proven to work.

Have you spoken to Adrian from Toda Racing regarding your exhaust setup ? I’m sure he will have input on how and why these cam’s need a nice exhaust setup also.

How much power will your car make from changing to a better intake and back to stock headers, it will make what every it makes. Although I do believe you might require a slight retune to take full advantage of the stock headers because all a sudden your engine will be breathing more air !! without the correct tuning this could be dangerous for your engine.

We have known for a LONG time k20 engines LOVE free flowing exhaust, the larger your exhaust, and less restrictive it is the more power it makes ! Free the exhaust, and watch more power be made.

Fact a DC5 3” exhaust system once tuned makes more power than a 2.5”

Fact a DC5 2.5” exhaust system once tuned makes more power than a 2.25”

Fact the larger he exhaust setup the more power you will make

Sadly spending more money to fix up your mistakes is a on going battle I see customers do each day, that 800$ could have gone towards the cost of buying Toda Headers in the first place.

Regards James

[TODA AU]

Paul_Dc5,

If you have a problem with your product, by all means,
Pick up the phone & I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

FWIW, your header is the root of all evil.
This is common knowledge & you can only blame this for your poor output.
I covered this in the Bang for bucks post, many times.
Ie: Combination is everything.

Feel free to give me a call.
Adrian. vbmenu_register("postmenu_443394", true);

[Cr@ckerJ@ck]

Paul I don't know why you'd post a bitch session on a public forum instead of sorting it out over the phone directly with the tuner. From your posts it sounds like you are a complete n00b and have the most outragous aspirations for this car.
I can understand that you have paid alot of money for the mod's and tuning but your not doing yourself any favors by being so ignorant. These guys obviously want to help you so why don't you let them and instead of cracking the shits and moaning like a whore, listen to their suggestions. I know many DC5R owners who have had their cars tuned by James and ALL of them have been very satisfied with the results :thumbsup: Peace :)

[tinkerbell]

get rid of that header!!!!!

it is the weakest link!

with toda header you will see high 130's easy! maybe 140's!

the header is holding the potential of the camshaft upgrade back, you need to solve your airflow path restrictions before you can start complaining about lack of power...

[tinkerbell]

whoops, just read james and adrians posts, it was all said before... lol!

[jdmlvn]

mayb ur just a crapp driver

JOKEZ

is this an R version of dc5?

[Paul_Dc5]

mayb ur just a crapp driver

JOKEZ

is this an R version of dc5?


LOLOL i wish it was the driver
yer its a DC5
dont worry about it ill. It be fix up soon its just about money,that ok with me its life :)

[Paul_Dc5]

Just to let u know James i dont care about $800 i just want to see if u were rite, if u are than i will say sorry to u and call u to say it dont worry about that.

I would of got the Toda Headers but i knew that it would of got here in time so i got the x-force to try it out. I got it in 4days, Dont forget i ask ur friend if he can get the parts in for me b4 2.5weeks he said ill get it in 2weeks and how long did it take 3weeks 3day and he didnt even call me to let me know its goin to be late i had to call him n you to see what was happin
he told you and me like 3times when it was met to be commin , first time was 2weeks 2sec was 2.5week 3rd time was 3weeks 1day, waited but did it come "No" not till the 4th time.

[BLKCRX]

Sure go a head looking forward for the results, you will be the first person in the world try Toda Spec A2 cam's on x-force headers and have it tuned, and then swap back to standard headers and compare the differences. The only concern I have is in theory you should retune your car. The X force headers use drastically different fuel, ignition and cam angle settings as apposed to Toda headers or Stock headers, even the change in your intake will effect the tune. Make sure you have a professional listen to your engine on the dyno before you go street racing or go see APC and have it retuned.

If money isn’t a worry then why not buy Toda headers? This is a world wide proven product ? supported by 100’s of owners ?

As for Adrian supplying Toda parts on time, sadly predicting importing times can be difficult, I’m sure there are100’s of people on this forum who have ordered things off Adrian, things truly do take time. Adrian is no1 for any Toda parts in Australia, period. But he can not control shipping times, and custom clearance issues. Sometimes customs inspect packages very quickly, sometimes like anything they get delayed, and the importer and end user is powerless to speed this process up.

Regards James

[Wazza]

I hope that both James and Adrian's reputations are not tarnished in any way by one persons experience... Both James and Adrian are perhaps the two most knowledgable people in regard to modifying Hondas in Australia. On countless times I have asked them for advice on my car, and always they are more than happy to share their knowledge for free, as they are both genuine people that simply enjoy talking about cars, and helping people out. Adrian and James, keep up the good work.....

[ginganggooly]

Useless information for the day: I saw a DC5R with a very similar setup to this one (with a toda header being the only difference i know of) at Premier, and it put out 150-155kw. So maybe there is a bit of truth to the poor header design theory...

[e240]

I hope that both James and Adrian's reputations are not tarnished in any way by one persons experience........

I'll bump Adrian's rep up...In short, when he ran my underpowered civic on his dyno, he immediately questioned me on my fuel pump...true enough, I was still running the shitty stock fuel pump. I had that replaced and immediately, a bunch of engine issues with my car disappeared.

Needless to say, my car is now being tuned by Adrian...there you go.. :wave:

[Paul_Dc5]

Sure go a head looking forward for the results, you will be the first person in the world try Toda Spec A2 cam's on x-force headers and have it tuned, and then swap back to standard headers and compare the differences. The only concern I have is in theory you should retune your car. The X force headers use drastically different fuel, ignition and cam angle settings as apposed to Toda headers or Stock headers, even the change in your intake will effect the tune. Make sure you have a professional listen to your engine on the dyno before you go street racing or go see APC and have it retuned.

If money isn’t a worry then why not buy Toda headers? This is a world wide proven product ? supported by 100’s of owners ?

As for Adrian supplying Toda parts on time, sadly predicting importing times can be difficult, I’m sure there are100’s of people on this forum who have ordered things off Adrian, things truly do take time. Adrian is no1 for any Toda parts in Australia, period. But he can not control shipping times, and custom clearance issues. Sometimes customs inspect packages very quickly, sometimes like anything they get delayed, and the importer and end user is powerless to speed this process up.

Regards James




Well if u say that than why didnt he even call me to let me know that is commin in late, I be happy with that but no i have to call him and he doesnt even pick up the fone he doesnt even call me bck at all .At end i had to call u to see what was happen remember ?

Dont worry im gettin $2600 headers mate even think about a new Ecu

[lerroy]

Dam i didnt know that the X-force headers were that Bad

i have a Xforce system on a DC2 Vtir and pulled 107kw on Adrians Dyno
He installed the Piping hi/flow cat and the Twin loop no the headers though

would the xforce headers also be crap on a DC2 setup even without cams ? would i be better off stock


if what your saying is right i gotta get Adrian to put some a toda setup on dammit !!!

[LAGOOT]

im soo suprised to hear about the mugen intake is no better than the stock intake :(

sorry to go off topic but as james stated that the mugen intake is no better than the stock intake.. does that also mean the same for the DC2R? :confused:

[bubblecivic]

Yeah Toda is defnitely better! It may cost alot more but the power increase will speak for itself!

Seems like you have alot of $$$ to play around with Paul_Dc5.. Why don't you go the turbo/supercharge route? That way you'll get more out of your money and you will leave your friend far behind :P

[BLKCRX]

Firstly thanks to everyone who has called me up regarding this post, its great to have community support, even phone calls from as far away as Perth, the phone has been running hot all day. Thank you.

Paul, buying a more expensive header doesn’t mean it will be any better than the Toda Header, and hell it even may be worse, although only Adrian from Toda Racing can truly comment on this. I can only guess at the header your referring to is that being the maxiwork header, that you friend Steven from Centrex sells, who are also running a motec system in there race car. If you want to swap to a similar setup like them be my guest, but please listen to all the advice within this post. Sadly your current setup is not correct, if I could turn water into wine and make your car perform better I would, but I’m not a god, and I can’t perform miracles on a bad combination of parts, I can only tune a car perfectly to the extent of your modifications, which has been done, in fact your car spent more time on the dyno than most due to the fact the headers are so crap in even making a little bit of power.

But at the end of the day free to choose and buy what ever parts you want, that’s your decision. The fact still remains the best header to complement your Toda cams is the Toda Header, even if you pay $2600 for a more expensive header, this header isn’t designed for your current modifications, the Toda Header how ever is suited for your cams and developed by one of the largest aftermarket performance parts dealers in the world is Toda. A set of Toda headers will cost around $1200.00 I believe currently there is a group buy on them.

With regards to Adrian being difficult to contact, well that’s just natural, if you generally ring his workshop number and speak to the reception lady you can always leave him a message. I’m lucky enough to be able to contact him directly on his mobile and interrupt him (lucky for caller ID) whilst he’s busy tuning and working on clients cars because generally if I call Adrian its regarding a important matter. I’m sure we all screen out phone calls! If we all stopped work each and every time our phone rang no cars would get tuned or work would be done. We also don’t have time to sit on the internet all day playing Mr internet mechanic or Mr internet tuner, were out doing the real deal, so please don’t feel bad that Adrian is busy doing his job and not answering his phone.
And hell yesterday was my birthday and I spent it all day tuning and working on cars ;) and today I have been just as busy although this afternoon iv came home early to rest so I can go party hard tonight and get smashed on vodka.. yes we are all human ! we don’t work 24/7 although I do try and help / answer my phone as often as I can to help support the community and provide free technical support, hell call me tonight and you will get a drunken technical support ;)

Anyway back on topic with regards to comparing the DC2 x-force header and DC2 Toda header, this post is specifically in regards to DC5 headers so please don’t draw any conclusions regarding the DC2 setup, start another thread if you must.

With regards to the mugen intake, this research was not conducted by my self, but was conducted by APC in Brisbane using the Centrax car. For specific information feel free to call for Rob at APC who is the front desk person and ask him for first hand information. Again this is specific again for the DCr5 not the DC2. Rob was the person who informed me of there testing done over 2 years ago.

Regards James

[Weq]

NA power is so expensive...

also as far as the customer service u are talking about. its the story of the modification world. nothing gets done on time. why else have i been building my car for a year??? so many suppliers, 1 hr here can mean 1 day extra down the line..

edit:

what compression are u running. why did u replace ur headgasket? what are u revving too?

[wynode]

Paul_Dc5, you have PM. Please don't join up purely to point the finger at someone. Deal with them directly and NOT on a public forum.

[Paul_Dc5]

Dam i didnt know that the X-force headers were that Bad

i have a Xforce system on a DC2 Vtir and pulled 107kw on Adrians Dyno
He installed the Piping hi/flow cat and the Twin loop no the headers though

would the xforce headers also be crap on a DC2 setup even without cams ? would i be better off stock


if what your saying is right i gotta get Adrian to put some a toda setup on dammit !!!

No dont get me wrong, toda are good but not the best there is.With the X-force just that they send me a wrong one it was no good at all. If u get the rite X-force headers it should be ok N i know that for Dc2 with toda cum and spring they much shit lods of power so dont worry about that

[FunkyR]

im soo suprised to hear about the mugen intake is no better than the stock intake :(

sorry to go off topic but as james stated that the mugen intake is no better than the stock intake.. does that also mean the same for the DC2R? :confused:

I'll contribute with some facts :) Straight from the Mugen catalog from Japan for the DC5R (01-04) the Mugen intake on a JDM DC5R with the Mugen front bar only gave a max PS improvement of 4PS which is about 2-3kW at the fly wheel.

Hard to dispute those figures when they come from Mugen directly. I'm not too suprised a Mugen air box doesnt make all that much difference compared to the Hondata stock air box mod.

For DC2 I dont think it'll make that much difference either (I could be wrong) - the stock set up is already CAI.



Mmmm I'd have to agree about the headers.... seems like they're the weakest link....

[s2king]

Just remember boys/girls, its hard to say how much power your going to get or its hard to compare agaist other power figures of cars, since each dyno has comes up with different results.
But with that setup, I think your looking at about 140-145kw at wheels.

[lerroy]

Great info

thanks for the comments

[BLKCRX]

No dont get me wrong, toda are good but not the best there is.With the X-force just that they send me a wrong one it was no good at all. If u get the rite X-force headers it should be ok N i know that for Dc2 with toda cum and spring they much shit lods of power so dont worry about that





Are you sure ? iv only ever seen one x force dc5 header design, it’s a 4 -1 header that joins all 4 entry points very sharply into a very basic collector tuning into a 3” pipe.

If X force have another design for the DC5 ill be more than happy to buy it and test it out on my DC5r test car.



Regards James

[Paul_Dc5]

Are you sure ? iv only ever seen one x force dc5 header design, it’s a 4 -1 header that joins all 4 entry points very sharply into a very basic collector tuning into a 3” pipe.

If X force have another design for the DC5 ill be more than happy to buy it and test it out on my DC5r test car.



Regards James



Yer there is one more its new its a 4-2-1 header they sendin me a free one dont know what for but ok ill take it n sell it for fun.

well if u want to test somethin how about mugen headers they only $4000 try that n tell me how it goes and let me know if toda are still the best.
So u buy the items and what do u do after testin it ?

[TeMp]

Fact Mugen intakes are NO better than the stock intake with the restrictor.



What exactly is this restrictor?

[Paul_Dc5]

Paul_Dc5, you have PM. Please don't join up purely to point the finger at someone. Deal with them directly and NOT on a public forum.



mate what do u do when u call them and they dont want to talk to u at all
i call 2days later when i got my car bck and he didnt even pick up and didnt even call me bck at all and yes my Id was on so i call him the next day but still he didnt pick up so i turn my Id off n call bck in 5min n what happen he picked up man what was that. He told he to fix shit up in my car so im doin now n what he has to say about it? "man y u doin that for save up for toda headers"
so 1min his tell me to do this n the next somethin diff, what's wrong now james? worried that i'll find out the truth or something? i just want to know if ur rite all not

[Paul_Dc5]

lalalalla

[BLKCRX]

Paul, I think your reading into this far to much, and trying to form magical answers from thin air. With regards to not picking up your phone I think that’s just going a little personal now. I got back from a very busy Queensland jamboree / tuning schedule and ended up coming back to work to 20 hour days catching up on work here in Melbourne. Funnily enough I can’t always answer my phone, but yeah that’s for you to believe or not. And the time when you did call back I had just stepped out of the shower the 2nd time you called. and yes I did take 20minutes out of my time to educate you and your friend on the next best modifications, I also explained a few theories to you on how things work, although I also remember you being very irate and hissy fitting, your friend Will was very peaceful and very understanding about how it all comes down to combination, infact your friend commented well now I know what works and does’t work ! and yes what your going though is all about learning combination ! learning what parts work, and don’t work together ! But Paul be my guest call me when ever you like, anyone can call me I’m not scared to pickup the phone, infact I like people calling me than sending me emails or PM.. replying on the internet is not the best method of communication. And yes my conversation with you I told you the best solution for your problem is to run Toda Headers, which are designed specially for your cams, and this was after also consulting with Adrian from Toda racing where we both agreed stock headers in you case would even be better that what you currently have.

Further to this conclusion Iv done some more research over the last couple of hours and had the guys at APC bring up a few Dyno graphs of your car. As you are aware the previous owner of your car had hondata installed and also tuned on the APC dyno so we were able to compare and contrast his car which was standard headers cat back exhaust (not sure what intake ) and we over layer his graph from 8 months ago to your graph once tuned. This gave remarkable interesting results showing massive loss’s of power almost everywhere when comparing your car now, to what I was 8 months ago. This further supports the evidence that the current modifications conducted on your car has infact pushed the performance backwards, not forward. If you would like a copy of this data please phone me and ill be more than happy to explain and forward it on. A question also must be brought up with regards to current installation of the cams, but from my understanding and from talking to the installer I believe these were installed correctly, again all evidence points the finger towards the headers.

So again, my hand is out to help you Paul. Not to flame you as you are hinting toward, I will always be here to help support advise and help out fellow Honda enthusiastic people but I am no god, I can’t turn water into wine, or a incorrect setup into the best setup from just tuning. I look forward to receiving a phone call from you in regards to the above issues.

Regards James

[lerroy]

ahah and they say there is no love in ozhonda :P well said james

sorry to jack thread but where is the group buy for toda headers im contemplating now gonna boot the xforce ones :P

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

since this hasent been done in pm i'll feel free to comment.
Everything makes sence to me, infact i couldnt fault anything thats been said, evedence can be provided to show the issue of aftermarket headers Vs stock,
and the party being blamed has at all times provided clear communication of the issue at hand.

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

just realised i was stating the obvious :(

[TeMp]

ahah and they say there is no love in ozhonda :P well said james

sorry to jack thread but where is the group buy for toda headers im contemplating now gonna boot the xforce ones :P

The Toda Header group buy is at clubrsx under the Australia section.

[lerroy]

Thanks Temp

[tinkerbell]

and the party being blamed has at all times provided clear communication of the issue at hand.

whoah! how on earth do you know this to be true?!~?!?!

you have just re-iterating the most well articulated of the two sides to the story...

James is a spin doctor (no pun intended)

and Paul is a newbie who seems to have believed a little too much, then to be taken for a ride on his own imagination...

you know nothing of their discourse (and no-one here does), please dont try to think you do know what one party has represented to another from what has been posted here...

unless you were there?

[wynode]

Paul,

You joined up here purely to express your dissatisfaction/have a winge and we will not tolerate this. Ozhonda is a place to share information and not make accusations. Contact James privately to sort things out.