port and polish

[michael_antoi]

search didn't come up with much

has anyone done a port and polish on their head?

how much did it cost and where did they go in sydney?


i also found this if anyone is interested..

DIY on p&p

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.shtm

it's pretty detailed and informative, doesn't seem to hard, but dont know if i'm brave enough to try it myself.

[tinkerbell]

i have not had it done, but you could talk to Toda Racing Australia (Adrian) regarding costs & benefits...

i would trust him the most out of sydney...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=83

for what it is worth - he quoted me $1400 for port and polish and full service on a B16A head a while back (when he was working at Advan)...

[michael_antoi]

wow, alot more than i thought..

isn't there certain stages of p&p?

would his quote be the highest stage or whatever?

i was considering doing some of it myself, like the basic parts.

- polishing the chambers and opening up the intake manifolds slightly to match the openings in the gaskets..

the diy is pretty good


but i'm not sure how easy/disastrous it could be...

just after prices and opinions.

[tinkerbell]

yeah, wasnt sure if that quote woudl help you or not...

it was for a pretty advanced B16A build...

but you will pay 300 for jsut a head service these days...

time is money - it takes a LOT of time to properly port a head.

maybe get a price from portflow in the USA for the job, they do shitloads of work... (making it cheaper)

[iamhappy46]

P&P is VERY labour intensive but paying a pro is the only way to do it.

Doing it yourself, often ends in tears. Just cause it looks good with your eye, does not mean it will flow air/fuel mixture well.

[tinkerbell]

just look at portflow prices:

http://www.portflow.com/product.htm

$900 for:

disassemble/ clean/ inspection
port & polish
multi-angle valve job
deshroud valve area in chamber
polish chambers
surface deck
assembly / new seals included

that is $900 US or $1200ish AUD

[michael_antoi]

ahh ok, thanks for that mate

[revNhevN]

was watchin the omniman dvd. i was under the impression that the porting angles of the valves depends on what cams you run. ie lift.

[nedgeworth]

just look at portflow prices:

http://www.portflow.com/product.htm

$900 for:

disassemble/ clean/ inspection
port & polish
multi-angle valve job
deshroud valve area in chamber
polish chambers
surface deck
assembly / new seals included

that is $900 US or $1200ish AUD

Then don't forget shipping two ways on top of that.

[michael_antoi]

surely some people have had p&p done in sydney?

[ALLMTR996]

search didn't come up with much

has anyone done a port and polish on their head?

how much did it cost and where did they go in sydney?


i also found this if anyone is interested..

DIY on p&p

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.shtm

it's pretty detailed and informative, doesn't seem to hard, but dont know if i'm brave enough to try it myself.
As Tinkerbell said you must keep in mind that when getting a head ported you must also have it serviced so be careful as to who you get to do this type of work.Most guys quote only for porting and when you go to pickup your head they slap you with another $300 + dollars for a head service.Give Jim at Online Performance a ring the guy that is doing there porting cant be to bad just look at there cars performance.
ALLMTR996

[michael_antoi]

what does a head service involve?

[ALLMTR996]

what does a head service involve?
Strip and wash head check valve guides for clearence cut valve seats+face valves + wash head again+reassemble the head but not including the cam or cams and check valve seats for leaks.Most shops will be + valve stem seals for this job as well because the OEM Honda are the best for this job.
ALLMTR996

[blackdc2]

at the end of the day, you will get what you pay.

Adrian at Toda Racing (in Sydney) ported my head, and had it sent of to be serviced.

quality of his work was excellent and any heads i need porting in the future will be done by him.

If you are serious, give him a call, he no longer works for Advan so price may vary, it may also depend on how "much" porting you would like done as well, as more porting would be more labour intensive.

[michael_antoi]

thanks for that mate,

out of curiosity how much did u pay for ur p&p?

must of noticed some good gains eh?

[blackdc2]

thanks for that mate,

out of curiosity how much did u pay for ur p&p?

must of noticed some good gains eh?

i couldnt tell you what the gains were as several other parts of the car were changed at the same time.

to be honest, i can not remember how much it cost to port and polish.

generally, workshops work on $80-$90 an hour in labour....

[MrPlow]

at the end of the day, you will get what you pay.

Adrian at Toda Racing (in Sydney) ported my head, and had it sent of to be serviced.

quality of his work was excellent and any heads i need porting in the future will be done by him.

If you are serious, give him a call, he no longer works for Advan so price may vary, it may also depend on how "much" porting you would like done as well, as more porting would be more labour intensive.

:rolleyes:

[smoknhothonda]

Another thing to consider as an addition or alternative to P&P is extrude honing.

When a Head is manufactured, it is cast, meaning that molten aluminium is poured into a mould and set to solidify. Whilst the japanese have great castings, there is still a small amount of rough edges/imperfections within the port chambers.

The extrude honing process involves forcing an abrasive paste through the head to hone the chambers internally.

I havent used it personally but I have heard of great reports on a sprint car. This process can be used on anything, from inlet manifolds, turbo manifolds, turbine components etc etc

They are located at mount druitt and trade under Abrasive Flow Engineering.

[Weq]

i got my head p&pd by Harries Engines in Sydney. They cost around $700, included a full head service(clean/seals), align hone on my cam bearings, valve job, o-rings, and usual porting. Also included porting out the exhaust and intake manifolds.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/loxy/car/turbo/head/head1.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/loxy/car/turbo/head/ - pics

[[stealth]]

how do these pnps compare to ones that come standard in Type Rs etc?

[iamhappy46]

Obviously, a p&p Type R head is optimised for the original Type R camshafts, so they flow well. Fit a different spec camshaft tho, to any head and you should have the head p&p to suit.
Any reputable workshop should be able to specify a camshaft for the p&p work they do to your head or alternatively p&p to suit a camshaft you want fitted.

[ProECU]

exactly, and extrude hone is a big NO NO for a cylinder head.

[jimmeh]

exactly, and extrude hone is a big NO NO for a cylinder head.
how come? as i have a friend that had an extrude hone done on his head

[ProECU]

ok think of it this way.....

when you're passing an abrasive paste through a conduit, how do you know...
a) how much abrasive to pass
b) when to stop
c) how does the abrasive actually abrase the inside wall path
d) how do you define a space that is "optimal" for the flow to travel
e) how do you prevent the abrasive from contacting areas around the valve entries which do not require attention.

In otherwords, how do you control "where" material should be removed from ?
All extrude honing is good for is hogging out volume.

I'm sure your friend has shit torque production out of the motor using that head.

[iamhappy46]

ProECU is right, Honda actually put casting marks into the head to promote swirl upon cylinder entry. Better fuel/air mix = bigger bang.
Honing a sprint car head may work, cause they rarely come of full throttle, normally with ITB's and camshafts optimised for the honing process.
Inlet manifolds, turbo compressors etc are good for the 'honing process' but heads still need the human element to get them right.

[cityturbo]

hey mate, i am going to do P&P for my car. can you recommend me a good shop in melbourne area?

[BLKCRX]

In Melbourne the only person I trust is Adrian from razz tech, you should see the h22 head he just finished, and the dc2r and dc5r he’s working on currently !! its amazing !

check out the link
http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=429#post429

Regards James

[cityturbo]

where is Razz tech? i want to go there and quote

[DynoDave]

ok think of it this way.....

when you're passing an abrasive paste through a conduit, how do you know...
a) how much abrasive to pass
b) when to stop
c) how does the abrasive actually abrase the inside wall path
d) how do you define a space that is "optimal" for the flow to travel
e) how do you prevent the abrasive from contacting areas around the valve entries which do not require attention.

In otherwords, how do you control "where" material should be removed from ?
All extrude honing is good for is hogging out volume.

I'm sure your friend has shit torque production out of the motor using that head.
Extrude honing a head is ok but not the ideal way to do it and yes it does remove material from the wrong spots but it will improve flow and make the port bigger in those spots that make power.Porting a head is not just the answer to making power there are other ways to do it and unless you are going to do a complete combination to enhance the porting dont waste your money.And I know most on here will just talk about it and never do it they just ring people in the industry that are good at porting cylinder heads and waste there time.Then they go off to some dickhead that is good with words and gets them to do it and next thing its the tuners fault because he cant get it to make power when in fact its the shit porting job.And yes guys and girls I get these types of jobs everyweek so if you think I'm being blunt good because I am.
Regards Dyno Dave

[krasyvy]

so how can us 'commoners' differentiate between someone who can do a good porting job and a sh.it one.

[DynoDave]

so how can us 'commoners' differentiate between someone who can do a good porting job and a sh.it one.
Just look at who does cylinder heads for winning Honda racecars from both track and drags.Most guys that do heads for the V8 people do not understand how the hell a Honda cylinder head can flow as much as it does on a small engine.When this happens you know you are talking to the wrong person.
Regards Dyno Dave

[luzinit]

hey steve who did ur port n polish?

[spetz]

Isn't porting and polishing a gamble in a way?

I mean, I may be wrong, but with more air flowing through the cylinder head, you also want to keep the air speed high to create more torque.
And if a head is ported, it may show good signs on the benchflow but due to larger ports etc the speed of the air wont be as fast making the engine lose torque?

[DynoDave]

Isn't porting and polishing a gamble in a way?

I mean, I may be wrong, but with more air flowing through the cylinder head, you also want to keep the air speed high to create more torque.
And if a head is ported, it may show good signs on the benchflow but due to larger ports etc the speed of the air wont be as fast making the engine lose torque?
Yes this is true its all about building a GOOD COMBINATION of parts to make everything work together is not about 1 thing.Porting a head to big yes you will lose torque and lots of it.Most Honda heads for street use need very little porting there are just a few area's that you pay lots of attention to and cutting the valve seats the correct way will enhance flow at low valve lift which in turn will increase torque.So this is what I am saying about people that port heads you have to look around for someone that works with Hi RPM multi valve setups and they are the ones that know what I have just spoken about.
Regards Dyno Dave

[iamhappy46]

For an idea of what is involved in porting & polishing a SOHC VTEC head, properly check this link:

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/d16a%5Fhead/

Think about the labour cost here and realise what your getting for your hard earned cash and why you paying it... cause it is hard earned cash for the guy doing the work.

You get what you pay for.

[ek4-guy]

dude if your still looking for somewhere in sydney try superflow heads in liverpool tell them your concerns an what you want an they will let you know if its worth while or not they are the best in oz in my oppinion they have been doin the top drag cars for over 20 years i once had a set of 5lt efi heads done by em they where good for 12sec passes in my old torana

[locote]

i got a quote from hi-tech in perth for 450 for a head service and 250 on top to PnP the head then pay for parts needed.
they said they can get my b18b head to flow as good or better than a vtec head.
that price includes the instalation of my crower gear to the head to(cams, springs,retainers,gears)
would i benefit by goin bigger valves too???
ill be instaling 403 crower nonvtec cams.

[DynoDave]

i got a quote from hi-tech in perth for 450 for a head service and 250 on top to PnP the head then pay for parts needed.
they said they can get my b18b head to flow as good or better than a vtec head.
that price includes the instalation of my crower gear to the head to(cams, springs,retainers,gears)
would i benefit by goin bigger valves too???
ill be instaling 403 crower nonvtec cams.
Dude get them to put that in writing because they cant have ever flowed a Vtec head or if they have they have messed it up with some shit porting work.
Regards Dyno Dave

[locote]

ok.
what work needs to be done to the b18b head to flow a lot better than it does???

[DynoDave]

ok.
what work needs to be done to the b18b head to flow a lot better than it does???
We are doing a head now and will have results up once its finished and the customer is happy with the results.
Regards Dyno Dave

[locote]

thanks Dave just rang race torque,
the bloke that does the work wasnt there but i left a list of all i want done and they will have a full quote for me on friday.
all he could say was they charge 55 the hour,
and a service for my head will be round the 400 to 500 mark,
do you think goin for bigger valves will make a difference???
i wanna get all the work done 1 time round so i dont have to muck around with a head anymore,
im planning on goin for crower 404s when i rebuild my bottom end.
but on a 9.2:1 comp 404s would be useless

[DynoDave]

locote thats good they are a good bunch of guys and they do nice work from what I have seen,We just setup a STD B16A with Skunk2 Stage2 cams and got very good results out of it,we did spend around 3 hrs doing cam timing runs on the dyno but the end results was worth it so the 404,s sould not be a problem if you tune them into your setup.And if you can use 1mm bigger valves in that head as they are 2mm smaller than a Vtec head.
Regards Dyno Dave

[locote]

for the setup i wanna get would a 2.25' be enough to achieve good power and torque or a 2.5' exhaust be better.
as most jap aftermarket exhaust manufacturers use 2.36 (60mm)

[Kenshin3180]

Where is the best place ni Brisbane to get P&P

[Terry]

yeah i m also interested to know where can get it done in Brisbane:D
is the different is significant after the work is done?

[DynoDave]

yeah i m also interested to know where can get it done in Brisbane:D
is the different is significant after the work is done?
Guys I really dont know of any Honda cylinder head guys in Brisbane and porting is not the main source of power in a Honda head its in the valve seats.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ekslut]

Where is the best place ni Brisbane to get P&P

Guys if you are spending that much on doing a P&P I reccomend you send it to someone you trust. For a extra $70 you can send it anywhere in Australia. I am in Melbourne, but wasn't too excited by anything down here, so I sent mine to Sydney to have it done by DynoDave. He has been working on honda's for ages and I know I can trust him to do it right. If your spending close to $1000 whats another $70 for peace of mind and have a honda expert work on it.

By the way I am not saying that you should just send it to DynoDave, thats just who I decided to choose. Have a look around and find someone you trust and someone that knows Hondas.

[locote]

just got a full drive in drive out quote for a full pnp, refresh, instalation of cams timing and valve gear, and instalation of new inlet mani.
$1700.
this place done heaps of motors and cyl heads.
they done a lot of nissan sr20 stuff saw a few of heads they done looks beautiful.
might get my throttle body bored out to.

[syk]

i completely agree with ekslut... instead of taking a 'gamble' with someone that may talk the talk... spend the money, even if it is a bit extra and go for the person who honestly knows exactly what they are doing.
dynodave has a top reputation for producing top race and street cars, he knows more than i'd say 99.99% of australia's population about honda engines, listen to his advice at LEAST... :)

[superR]

porting the throttle body probably wont be worth it as you can only bore out a minmal ammount.

[superR]

porting the throttle body probably wont be worth it as you can only bore out a minmal ammount. will this amount really have an effect?

[joyride]

i think boring out the TB will only give it a bit better rev response...
in regards to hp output, would it even make a differenceat all? probably not?

[kimo]

http://www.dprracing.com

I think they are the best.

[JohnnyVtec]

[QUOTE=michael_antoi]search didn't come up with much

has anyone done a port and polish on their head?

Part$ are expensive brotha!! if you f*ck up your head, you'll have to buy another and start all over again.I Agree with the Dyno dave fella and some of the others. 1. builder has to know HONDA's. 2. Builder should have CnC 5 axis or been doing HONDA's for 10 years +. 3. The "FLOW BENCH" tells no lies, so the Builder needs to have a flow bench otherwise you could take his word that it flows this much or that much... Avoid the bullsh*t and get a pro to do it, or do everything else barre P&P and see if you're happy with the build.


Cheers,:thumbsup:

[todaek9]

To build a honda is not as easy as you guys think...As i always say, there is alot of Self Proclaim PRO tuners, and they only talk the talk...

If you only bore the TB, is not good enough...Intake manifold, the head, extractor, exhaust must match as well...I think there is alot of tread mention that to build a honda, Flow is very important...but basically, this works on every engine..

[tofu R]

as ive said in another post..
im running a head that has work done from dyno dave..

i drive an 01 dc2r ..
after the head swap .. i put in vtir cams into my head.. while im waiting for my new cams to come in .. (with stock ecu atm)

amazingly .. even with the much lesser cam .. the car is faster than itr's that are tuned with itr cams ..

so doing work to the head does make a huge difference.. and CAN give big gains .. BUT!! WHO does your work.. is going to give u a bigger difference..

u can port yourself .. and open up the ports as big as the harbour tunnel .. but u will get the most sluggish and farked up bottom end ..

p'n'p needs mechanical expertise, as well as knowledge.. and a bit of art too .. =)

get d-dave to chime in

[Qik_B20]

as ive said in another post..
im running a head that has work done from dyno dave..

i drive an 01 dc2r ..
after the head swap .. i put in vtir cams into my head.. while im waiting for my new cams to come in .. (with stock ecu atm)

amazingly .. even with the much lesser cam .. the car is faster than itr's that are tuned with itr cams ..

so doing work to the head does make a huge difference.. and CAN give big gains .. BUT!! WHO does your work.. is going to give u a bigger difference..

u can port yourself .. and open up the ports as big as the harbour tunnel .. but u will get the most sluggish and farked up bottom end ..

p'n'p needs mechanical expertise, as well as knowledge.. and a bit of art too .. =)

get d-dave to chime in

Hey Dude,

D Dave won chime in as we are currently in queensland.

Regards

The Team @ Redline Motorsport Developments