Toda C on stock b18c7

[BiGANG]

hey guys,

i was wondering after doing a search i found most ppl are running toda b's and not many run toda c cams. Would spec c cams make any more power if tuned on a type r as compared to toda b cams? Or will it just be too much for the stock motor? Also the guys that answer can you give reasons why the cams are good/no good for the car cheers.

[tinkerbell]

you you have a stock B18C7 and the first thing you are going to add is toda C's?

you thought of upgrading exhaust manifold etc?

you would need a full aftermarket ECU to tune Toda C's too i'd reckon...

the engine is an interactive system - one part does not make it, it is the combination of parts that is the key...

[Civic Type R]

the engine is an interactive system - one part does not make it, it is the combination of parts that is the key...

That quote should be made a bookmark. I keep telling people the same thing :thumbsup:

[ProECU]

Fact: Stock ITR does not have enough dynamic compression for those cams to work.

Fact: Stock ITR does not have the correct valvetrain springs/retainers to take advantage of the power band of those cams.

[BiGANG]

sorry guys i didnt explain myself too clearly.. i meant stock internals, assuming exhaust/headers/intake/ecu is installed. But proecu answered what i wanted to know


Fact: Stock ITR does not have enough dynamic compression for those cams to work.

i was looking for more reasoning as to why noone was running toda c's on their car.

[pgclee]

you'll need 12.5:1 compression at least to run those cams nicely...
and alot of work to the head...C's are mostly for Track usage...i reckon B's should be good enough, if you're going for drags...

you also need to consider FLOW...port and polish, uprater Valve Springs, TI-retainers, ADJ cam pulley, bigger TB + matching flow with intake...head-gasket...don't go for C's dude...too much money involve...

[Civic Type R]

Im assuming Adrian from TODA hasnt responded here is because he has said all that countless times in previous posts.

[EGB16A]

i read somewhere that toda c vtec engagment come in at 7000rpm? true or false?

[tinkerbell]

VTEC engages when the ECU tells it to.

[ProECU]

i read somewhere that toda c vtec engagment come in at 7000rpm? true or false?

7000rpm is about the optimal vtec x-over point for those cams and they'll keep making power to about 9500+ rpm

[EGB16A]

7000rpm is about the optimal vtec x-over point for those cams and they'll keep making power to about 9500+ rpm

that would suck waiting till 7000rpm lol... i guess the cams are designed to make more power throughout the whole rev range though.

does skunk2 have an equivilent to toda C?

[ALLMTR996]

Im assuming Adrian from TODA hasnt responded here is because he has said all that countless times in previous posts.
Why would he waste his time no one takes any notice of anyone that knows anything and gives honest advice from years of experience.They just take advice from Neville Nobody. :p
ALLMTR996

[EG5]

Why would he waste his time no one takes any notice of anyone that knows anything and gives honest advice from years of experience.They just take advice from Neville Nobody. :p
ALLMTR996


best reply :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[wynode]

best reply :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Jumping on the 'bandwagon' doesn't help ANYBODY!


TODA Spec C's should only be use with TODA valve springs.
Use of std valve springs will cause coil bind & catastrophic engine failure.
Cam lift is 12.5mm, std type R valve springs bind @ 12.0mm.

Spec C's ofer a power gain over std cams from 1500rpm.
Idle quality is very good, - 900rpm.
Nb: Installation is critical, if installed by an amature, idle will be poor.
They really work well on std B16A's, Spec B's work better on std B18C's
Aftermarket ECU is required & good tuning.
Fuel pump, regulator & heavy dyty oil pump gear also recommended.
Reliability of product is not an issue.

Source (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=412669&highlight=toda+cams#post412669)

And a thread on TODA Cams (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1578&page=1&pp=12&highlight=toda+cams)

[ProECU]

nice sales pitch.

[wynode]

Possibly a sales pitch but that's not how I meant it. Who else to ask about TODA cams but the TODA distributor and tuner?

[ALLMTR996]

i read somewhere that toda c vtec engagment come in at 7000rpm? true or false?
This depends on the rest of your setup a B18C with 4 throttle intake setup they would come in around the 6000-6600rpm.With a single throttle manifold with a 62mm or bigger TB 6600-7200rpm it just depends on how good the engine is setup.Spec B Toda cams work very well in a STD ITR (YOU MUST USE TODA VALVE SPRINGS) if you tune them with a ECU (Power FC or Hondata or AEM or something that gives you full control of the tuning)If you set it up with Toda headers or some of the SMSP or any of the other hi end market headers from the States with a 2.5" exhaust.Just remember if you get the correct combination you will get good power but just be careful of some of those shops that claim alot but really have no idea.If you do a search on www.honda-tech.com you will find heaps of info about setups with cam changes and brands used to do them.
ALLMTR996

[BiGANG]

thanks allmtr. you were saying that if u combine the cams with high end headers like toda or smsp you will get maximum results. i currently have JDM headers on my car. will the difference between the high end header and mine be really big.

[ALLMTR996]

thanks allmtr. you were saying that if u combine the cams with high end headers like toda or smsp you will get maximum results. i currently have JDM headers on my car. will the difference between the high end header and mine be really big.
I will get back to you have to think about the correct way to word a reply that will help. :idea:
ALLMTR996
Ok are the headers your using the ITR JDM headers if so with the cams dialed in correctly and tuned you will make a good gain.To get the maximum out of this setup you would need to spend alot more money.There are many ways to make more power and I could be here for hrs talking about it so you need to give an idea on budget and if you plan to do other mods down the track.
ALLMTR996

[BiGANG]

yes i have jdm 4-1 headers. well the truth is i dont have a budget because i just save and buy stuff bit by bit. I was thinking once i get the car tuned with i/h/e i will see if i am happy with results and go from there. If i want more later i was planning on doing cams and p&p and bigger throttle body then leave it at that. nothing too extreme because i need reliability.

The main reason i asked about the toda c cams is because if you look up a bit and see where wyn quoted TODA AU it says that the toda c work really well on a stock b16a. why can you install them on a b18 and not a b18 without doing Huge headwork and replacing bottom end for big compression?

[dsp26]

i'm going to bump this... I actually want an answer to post#20

Post#8 here by Toda:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1578&page=1&pp=12&highlight=toda+cams



For a road engine, Spec A's are excellent if you're on a tight budget...
If you're serious about performance you'll go bigger & use B's or C's...
Don't make the mistake of wanting C's because they are the biggest...
It doesn't work like that...
Guys... You have to realise combination is everything...
Mixing & match without experience doesn't work...
Ok... I'm off the soapbox now...
Cheers


so what's special about the B16 the the Spec Cs are better? This issue cause plenty debate here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90086

[fatboyz39]

lol why bump this for?

[Slaz]

Id say its not you cant install them just that you will benefit a great deal from doing so to take advantage of the lift and duration the c's would offer and that the b's specs are better suited to a B18C as is, without upping the comp and doing the extra headwork.

[dsp26]

lol why bump this for?
lol coz there was so much debate in my water leak thread on this.. was doing random research and came across that psot and some replies from Adrian.. i'm really curious as to why (spec wise) spec Cs are better in a B16a? the only advanatage i can see the B16a2 has over a B18c7 is better bore/stroke ratio....

[gambate]

iirc toda_au mentioned about b18's piston speed is higher then b16, so, doesnt suit spec C that well compare to b16, in addition to not having enough compression etc..

[dsp26]

iirc toda_au mentioned about b18's piston speed is higher then b16, so, doesnt suit spec C that well compare to b16, in addition to not having enough compression etc..

piston speed is given coz of the bore/stroke ratio.. but maybe he should clarify also.. did he he mean B18c2 in his references to "B18" or B18c7.. coz a B16 only has 10.2:1 static

[delsol9000rpms]

b16a has a much revier nature thats y it would be more suited to spec c's were as having a 1.8l with spec c'ss youd probably make power past its stock bottom end limits...

a stock bottom end b16a can rev past 9000rpms no problems at all assuming valve train has been upgraded...

my car (b16a2) gained power everywhere from stock cams to spec c's... the mid range power is awesome... the high crossover point can be seen as a negative.. bcoz yu dnt get the vtec sound until 6800-7000rpms but yur making alot of poweer without vtec yet... vtec kicks inn at 6800-7000rpm and then its alot of funn the sound is unexplainable... rev limit at 9000rpm... i make 98kwatw at 7000rpm before vtec kicks in...... a b18c wnt like reving to 9000rpms alot.... although a bigger displacement motor will make the power band and torque band lower anyway so it wnt need to rev to 9000rpms...

as for other stuff you will need to speak to adrian from toda.... any other questions i can answer coz i have the cams in my car so i dnt talk shit its all by experience..

[Benson]

maybe jdmtypeR can share his experience with Toda c's on a b18c7

[jdmTYPE R]

all i can say is not a good idea didnt gain any power losr power from low and mid over the stock itr cams and vtec was to late and was getting beaten by a stock motor

[fatboyz39]

go the toda C's....the only way for stock b16a motors! I would use them if i had a set.

[dsp26]

thanks all, just wanted to clarify.. it all makes sense.

but just one more thing... does it hold true for ITR motors also?? because everyone referring to "B18" or "B18c" seems generic.... i just always thought that the b18c7 from the ITR was also happy to be around 9000rpms safely despite bore/stroke ratio...

***EDIT***
delsol9000rpms: btw i saw your video.. definitely looks like a fast car... you must have really crap tyres though?

[delsol9000rpms]

ye the tyres on the street were half decent but on the track oncee they got some heat into them they were hopeless... plus single spinner diff... its almost impossible to launch the car fast... launch control doesnt work with shit tyres plus a single spinner..

heres the videoo... you cann hear when i start to accelarte very late coz of wheel spin...

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TTmrulYP834

[gambate]

all i can say is not a good idea didnt gain any power, lose power from low and mid over the stock itr cams and vtec was to late and was getting beaten by a stock motor

cant be agreed more, has toda B (same low cam as spec C, afaik, 11mm lift) on my stock b18c7 bottom end with oem head gasket (did not took out head for the cam job). anywhere below 5krpm is TOTALLY gutless, even less then my stock d-series i reckon.

i dont understand how most ppl that has this setup can say "good low end and superb mid-high with the toda B in b18c7" with oem spec compression. shit me to tears..

[TODA AU]

i dont understand how most ppl that has this setup can say "good low end and superb mid-high with the toda B in b18c7" with oem spec compression. shit me to tears..

What should shit you is you either didn't have them installed & tuned correctly or your tuner was unable to pinpoint the problem with your combination.
I guess from a customer's perspective it's easy to blame the latest part of your combination for being the root of all evil...
But unless it's not backed up with a why, quite frankly it's just not logical.
FWIW, most cams perform poorly when they're not installed per manufacturer's spec as the tuning will be off - regardless.
For best results (read as get what you paid for)Cams need to be set to the correct LCA or they won't work as they should.
Other issues are usually found in the actual combination used. (I/H/E etc)
There is a lot more to why than "I changed the cams & it went worse"

In the case of B18C7 ITR engine, if the combination is right & capable of supporting better cams, the B's work a treat.
If the combination is shiite they won't work well at all... & if the B's don't work... Don't fool yourself into thinking something else will.
Like it of not, there are a lot of aftermarket parts from name brand manufacturers that don't work well with real motorsport engine parts.
These are I/H/E components that claim to be the goods yet struggle to improve the output on a std engine...

Good Combination + Good instalation + Good tuning = Good output
Swap a Bad in for any good & you get Bad output.
It's pretty simple.

Though reading this will likley shit you even more,
You should know, Just because something didn't work for you, does not mean it cannot work.
There is always a "Why" & it could well be glaring you in the face.

[delsol9000rpms]

i think adrian summed it up nicely... anything else need to be said...?

[Benson]

ye the tyres on the street were half decent but on the track oncee they got some heat into them they were hopeless... plus single spinner diff... its almost impossible to launch the car fast... launch control doesnt work with shit tyres plus a single spinner..

heres the videoo... you cann hear when i start to accelarte very late coz of wheel spin...

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=TTmrulYP834

All i hear is excuses mate....

From listening to the vid, you have a gutless mid range and power from 7k onwards... Look at your MPH, its only 93mph (Ek4 full interior, full tank of fuel)... you can get that with a stock b16a motor with a few bolt-ons...and plus you gota rev the **** of your car to make it wheel-spin...

Your gota pop a valve one day doing that... rev limiter :zip:

Enoguh said :zip:

[delsol9000rpms]

ok were did that come from...

first off all that was the lowest mph of the night... and no a ek4 cant run that mph with full inteior and full tank of fuell.. if you have a stock ek4 ill pay for yu to run at wsid if youy can run tose times and that mph...

thats not rev limiter thats launch control on the launch??... 5.5krpm... on 16x7 inch rims... tyres were pretty shit though.....

if your talking about the burnout i dnt hear you flaming yonas from jdmyard for his limiter burnouts..?? i never ever ever do burnouts in my car on the street...

no i wnt pop a valve thanks mate ive got a good tune by toda and he put the motor together and a toda timing belt.... so i think i will keep all 16 of my valves thanks...

as for a gutless midrange... pffftt matee nws i spun off the launch and i was on and off the throttle untill you hear it again.. you cant hear it coz of the sss turbo in that video..
dsp26 has those buddyclub cams that are supposed to have the ultimate midrangee... i have around 10kws more then he does midrange.... ill get a dyno sheet next time i go to toda and ILL post it up gladly im not flaming him im just using his car as an example...

believe whatever you want... i have nuthing to proove to you... next time i go out there ill be more prepared and more setup... if you happen to be there i will gladdy race your eg b16a.. you talk so big over the net but keep goingg its not gonna get you anywere...

how about you continue building your backyard eg's and shutup

[Elwood]

how about you continue building your backyard eg's and shutup


Oh no he didn't!~!~!~!@~!#!#BBQ

[TODA AU]

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg

[Elwood]

I have a feeling this will turn into another circuit v. 1/4 mile debate..

[Benson]

ok were did that come from...

first off all that was the lowest mph of the night... and no a ek4 cant run that mph with full inteior and full tank of fuell.. if you have a stock ek4 ill pay for yu to run at wsid if youy can run tose times and that mph...

thats not rev limiter thats launch control on the launch??... 5.5krpm... on 16x7 inch rims... tyres were pretty shit though.....

if your talking about the burnout i dnt hear you flaming yonas from jdmyard for his limiter burnouts..?? i never ever ever do burnouts in my car on the street...

no i wnt pop a valve thanks mate ive got a good tune by toda and he put the motor together and a toda timing belt.... so i think i will keep all 16 of my valves thanks...

as for a gutless midrange... pffftt matee nws i spun off the launch and i was on and off the throttle untill you hear it again.. you cant hear it coz of the sss turbo in that video..
dsp26 has those buddyclub cams that are supposed to have the ultimate midrangee... i have around 10kws more then he does midrange.... ill get a dyno sheet next time i go to toda and ILL post it up gladly im not flaming him im just using his car as an example...

believe whatever you want... i have nuthing to proove to you... next time i go out there ill be more prepared and more setup... if you happen to be there i will gladdy race your eg b16a.. you talk so big over the net but keep goingg its not gonna get you anywere...

how about you continue building your backyard eg's and shutup

Yeh funny that, our backyard b16a will smash your car down the 1/4 mile..its already achieve 13.9@97mph running stock ITR cams before the last session of tuning. the motor was built in less than 1hour

Umm i only used a ek4 as an example cause i have one and i've ran down the 1/4 already mate... 93mph with some bolt-ons stock internally motor..

dsp26 car was on the dyno on the weekend and i was there to witness the tune. He is coming out this wed from what i heard, so maybe you can make an appearance and line him up?..

Mate, i dont talk big and not know nothing... if i do then im just a sad ****. Mate i think half the people on this forum agree's with me. They jsut dont say nothing, but behind there keyboard they are laughing at you mate

Maybe you shouldn't be too narrow minded and face the facts... there are heaps more better products out there for a b16a motor.. Im not dissing Toda products, there awesome products but there only good in certain applications.

[bennjamin]

guys please keep this on topic. Keep the aggression out of Ozhonda thanks.
But lets keep this discussion going !

[Benson]

........

[bennjamin]

........

my thoughts on this as a bystander of this thread....




No



Honda made the cams for the b18c7 just fine :)

[jdmTYPE R]

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg
OVERDOSE for sure JK

[delsol9000rpms]

Yeh funny that, our backyard b16a will smash your car down the 1/4 mile..its already achieve 13.9@97mph running stock ITR cams before the last session of tuning. the motor was built in less than 1hour

Umm i only used a ek4 as an example cause i have one and i've ran down the 1/4 already mate... 93mph with some bolt-ons stock internally motor..

dsp26 car was on the dyno on the weekend and i was there to witness the tune. He is coming out this wed from what i heard, so maybe you can make an appearance and line him up?..

Mate, i dont talk big and not know nothing... if i do then im just a sad ****. Mate i think half the people on this forum agree's with me. They jsut dont say nothing, but behind there keyboard they are laughing at you mate

Maybe you shouldn't be too narrow minded and face the facts... there are heaps more better products out there for a b16a motor.. Im not dissing Toda products, there awesome products but there only good in certain applications.

y everytime i say something you and you little followers have to disagree with me... just dnt reply to anything i sayy i have nothing to proove to you as i said.. i know what my car is capable of... i wanted more power from it for my own good not for anybody else to say if there setup is better or not coz i really dnt giv a F**K.... you can do what ever you want.... you dnt see me talking shit about you or your cars... so y the need to say shit about my car..?

the other week i saw your eg b16a run a 14.3... so what was the excuse there ayy how cum you didnt run 13.9 then?? ayy? theres reason for everything for all i knoww... but you dnt see me saying shit to you...

im happy with the toda spec c's on my motor and if you asked me would i changee id say no becoz they do eeverything i want plus more...

as for dsp26.... good luck to the guy never once have i doubted him or flamed him i only ever suggested stuff to him... i hope he runs an 11 second pass... doesnt bother me.... i wnt be racing this wednesday... simple... i wnt go back till i have fixed my problems of traction off the launch... everything else is spot on..

[phwoaaa]

Toda B requires less work done to engine

*bennjamin edit
keep it to pm thanks