Euro ecu flash

[Gibbo]

I just took a mazda MPS for a quick spin ( man we need more power in the euro to stay competitive) Which brings me to my next question. Does anyone know when, where and how much the hondata flash for the euro is??? I am hoping that the ecu flash will hold off the temptation to race out and buy an MPS. although the euro is a better car all round it just needs to go as hard as that turbo!!!! anyway i hope someone can help me out with the quest for the flash upgrade. Or if anyone knows of any other power updrades out or on the way !!
:honda:

[Chris_F]

i dont think a reflash alone will let you keep pace with an mps haha. But if your willing to spend 20k on the engine i think you probably could. and a base euro is nearly 20k cheaper than an mps isnt it?

[aaronng]

They are in different classes. Honda still has not come out with something to rival the MPS, and even when the Legend comes out next year it would be in a price bracket above the MPS.

In my opinion, the Euro's K24A cannot spin any faster reliably and is limited by the amount of air that it can intake into the large 588.5cc cylinders. So you would have to look at forced induction. Proof is that the TSX's hondata reflash gives the most gains at 5000-6500rpm (29hp at 6000rpm). At 6500 to redline, the gains are so small that the final peak power value is almost similar (4hp increase at 6800rpm). In addition, worked K24As used in the TSX for SCCA Speed World Touring Car Challenge have a redline of only 7800rpm, so it has to rely on torque instead of spinning at higher rpm (which essentially is what NA tuning is all about, shifting the peak torque higher into the RPM range so that more HP is made at even higher rpm).

Info from hondata.com and SCCA site: http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/vts.html

[sodaz]

They are really in a different class and the price shows. The MPS costs more than 50k and one has turbo and the other doesn't. I think the MPS is really designed to compete with cars like the Liberty GT. Unless you are willing to spend huge sums of money to make a custom turbo setup for the Euro, no amount of modding will get you the same performance imo.

[Chris_F]

i think with extensive engine work, you can get a NA k24A to have more than the mps (is it 190kw for the mps?) at the fly. I mean i know of a k20A in a DC5R thats probably putting around 170-180 kw at the flywheel... so with a big budget its defintiely possible

[Gibbo]

so basically the hondata reflash is a waste of time and money? Thats the general opinion Im getting here. I am happy with the performance of the Euro but i was under the impression that the reflash was going to be the ansewr to any shortcommings in power for those who wanted some more grunt.. Oh well i will just have to live with having one of the finest engineered cars on the road today... hee hee

[BLKCRX]

so basically the hondata reflash is a waste of time and money? Thats the general opinion Im getting here. I am happy with the performance of the Euro but i was under the impression that the reflash was going to be the ansewr to any shortcommings in power for those who wanted some more grunt.. Oh well i will just have to live with having one of the finest engineered cars on the road today... hee hee




LOL you base that upon knowing zero knowledge about the development that’s been taking place over the last 8 months, with developing the Australia specific Hondata Euro Flash, custom exhaust and intakes being designed, not to mention suspension, sway bars and short shifters designed specially for the euro meh ;-) try telling all my hondata Euro test clients driving around on supped up euros that there’s no increase in power ! dream on !!



Regards James

[yfin]

LOL you base that upon knowing zero knowledge about the development that’s been taking place over the last 8 months, with developing the Australia specific Hondata Euro Flash, custom exhaust and intakes being designed, not to mention suspension, sway bars and short shifters designed specially for the euro meh ;-) try telling all my hondata Euro test clients driving around on supped up euros that there’s no increase in power ! dream on !! Regards James

Happy for you to fill us in on the development. :thumbsup: 8 months of development is a long time and little information has been provided about potential gains. I think your biggest hurdle is going to relate to explaining the risks to all of us with the reflash - Euro customers are going to be conservative IMO.

[BLKCRX]

History proves we don't release anything until its ready ;) it took over 14 months with the DC5 ;) Results are only for those within the project ;) Its called confidentiality

[Chris_F]

BLKCRX, i think why Gibbo thought the reflash was a waste of time was because he was hoping that it would provide huge gains (comparable to an MPS) we all know that a reflash won't have the euro making 190kw. yes there are gains to be had, but i know it wont be anything earth shattering.. at least not without, intake, headers, single outlet exhaust etc etc

[yfin]

History proves we don't release anything until its ready ;) it took over 14 months with the DC5 ;) Results are only for those within the project ;) Its called confidentiality

What is confidential is your trade secrets - how you make the gains - how you configure the ECU settings.

To say to potential customers of your product we are seeing gains of X% in development is not passing on confidential information - it is good business sense IMO.

[Chris_F]

i agree with yfin, it'd definitely help you silence the critics... a lot of potential customers are keen for information

[sodaz]

BLKCRX, i think why Gibbo thought the reflash was a waste of time was because he was hoping that it would provide huge gains (comparable to an MPS) we all know that a reflash won't have the euro making 190kw. yes there are gains to be had, but i know it wont be anything earth shattering.. at least not without, intake, headers, single outlet exhaust etc etc

Yeah i agree. I'm sure there will be gains after the reflash and some modding. But i don't think it'll get close to an MPS still.

[yfin]

Yeah i agree. I'm sure there will be gains after the reflash and some modding. But i don't think it'll get close to an MPS still.

Unlikely in outright power terms - but who knows in actual road performance how much difference it will be. Remember the MPS weighs well over 1600kg. On a power to weight basis - the Std Euro would need around 165kw at the fly to be about the same power to weight ratio as the 190kw MPS.

[Usual Suspect]

the hole thing about the reflash is to fix the power gaps that the euro has, its not all about top power figures. THere is some information about the hondata ecu flash and from that i can gather that it will be probably the best mod for a euro, coupled with i/h/e.

[Gibbo]

all i meant to say was that from what OTHER people were saying in this thread it seemed like the reflash was a waste of time - i am waiting to see the cost and hear from people that have it in thier euro i just want to get a bit more from the euro i dont expect it to be as fast as an MPS, just have a bit more get up and possibly lower the vtec point abit!!

[aaronng]

i think with extensive engine work, you can get a NA k24A to have more than the mps (is it 190kw for the mps?) at the fly. I mean i know of a k20A in a DC5R thats probably putting around 170-180 kw at the flywheel... so with a big budget its defintiely possible
That's because the K20a is not limited by the top RPM. With resleeving, lightening and balancing internals as well as reinforcement, I'm sure you can have it spin at 10,000rpm. The K24a on the other hand is limited because of the piston speeds from its long 99mm stroke. Even with internal work, I suspect that the maximum reliable RPM would only be 8000-8500 ish, which is not enough for 190kW at the flywheel. Using the power = (torque x rpm) / 5252, you would need the same 198Nm (which is the stock torque at 6800rpm) at 9165rpm to produce 190kW. I don't see the K24a being able to sustain 9165rpm for even 5 seconds. If you had aggressive cams to move all 223Nm up to high RPM, then you would need only 223Nm at 8150rpm. Still beyond the redline of SCCA's TSX.

Edit: For 165kW, you'd need 223Nm at 7050, that's doable but requires aggressive cams (and probably change the intake manifold to suit as well!)

[Chris_F]

yea thats a good point... i remember porshe had a 3.0L 4 cyl at one stage that had the same readline (and incedently power) as the euro... but they may have been bored not stroked?

maybe if the engine could be destroked to 2.2L or something?

in sayin that i actually no of a car (spoken to the guy doing it) who is doing a k24a and k20a hybrid (k24a blcok and k20a heads) that is expecting 160-170kw at the wheels.

[aaronng]

yea thats a good point... i remember porshe had a 3.0L 4 cyl at one stage that had the same readline (and incedently power) as the euro... but they may have been bored not stroked?

maybe if the engine could be destroked to 2.2L or something?

in sayin that i actually no of a car (spoken to the guy doing it) who is doing a k24a and k20a hybrid (k24a blcok and k20a heads) that is expecting 160-170kw at the wheels.
The good ol' 1987 Porsche 944. Amazing though that they could get 140kW out of an SOHC engine without tricks like VTEC. It made 140kW at 6000rpm and 231Nm at 4300rpm. Very similar to the K24a numbers. Of course, with much worse fuel consumption!

Is the hybrid going to be destroked? Since he's using the k20a head, then I'd guess that he is going to use the k20a cams which should give peak torque at 6000rpm. A little bit of polishing and intake mods to up the torque (let's say 230Nm?) and that will give 170kW at 7050rpm, which is a reasonable RPM. Of course, i'm assuming the engine is making 230Nm at 7050rpm, which is not the case if the K20a cams make peak torque at 6000rpm. There should be a slight drop in torque after the peak, so 170kW should be made at higher than 7050rpm.

If anyone doesn't agree with what I've said, I'm just playing with the numbers using the old power-torque formula.

[Peekay34]

I am sure what ever James has to offer is worth waiting for. You have to remember the US is not next door and co-ordinating Dyno runs, Cars and results backward and forwarding takes a lot of time and I am sure is costing the people involved time and money. I am definitly waiting for it to be completed and will be looking into it as soon as it is ready. Remember the MPS is not a NA car and should not be compared directly. I had a Dyno run against a slighty modified 6 the other day and the difference between his car and mine was greater than 20KW ..(The look on his face of was not a happy one btw). If you want to compare our car against the MPS Turbo your cars or wait till the super charger from Comptech comes out then put it on then see what results you come out with.

[Chris_F]

The good ol' 1987 Porsche 944. Amazing though that they could get 140kW out of an SOHC engine without tricks like VTEC. It made 140kW at 6000rpm and 231Nm at 4300rpm. Very similar to the K24a numbers. Of course, with much worse fuel consumption!

Is the hybrid going to be destroked? Since he's using the k20a head, then I'd guess that he is going to use the k20a cams which should give peak torque at 6000rpm. A little bit of polishing and intake mods to up the torque (let's say 230Nm?) and that will give 170kW at 7050rpm, which is a reasonable RPM. Of course, i'm assuming the engine is making 230Nm at 7050rpm, which is not the case if the K20a cams make peak torque at 6000rpm. There should be a slight drop in torque after the peak, so 170kW should be made at higher than 7050rpm.

If anyone doesn't agree with what I've said, I'm just playing with the numbers using the old power-torque formula.

Yep that's the one! i was really intrigued when i was reading about it because it was so similar to the euro spec wise (and i'd always thoguht it was 6 cyl)

I think i remember him saying that it'll be destroked to 2.2 litres... i'll ahve to go in and have a chat to him again and try and flesh it out. They are gona make one beast of a k24a/k20a though thats for sure. They'll be using a high end MOTEC ecu to run the thing aswell. In about 5 years i'll either sell the euro or plan on doing a similar thing and keeping the thing untill petrol doesnt exist anymore haha.

I think the euro with new rods and some internal parts can safely rev to past 8000rpm though? especially if destroked to 2.2 litres... what do you recon ppl?

[aaronng]

If destroked to 2.2, I'm sure it'll reach 8000rpm if you use lightweight pistons, toughened rods and everything balanced to match. Plus the usual valve springs too.

[Ronin]

That's interesting... isn't your car one of the ones they are testing the Hondata reflash on?




I am sure what ever James has to offer is worth waiting for. You have to remember the US is not next door and co-ordinating Dyno runs, Cars and results backward and forwarding takes a lot of time and I am sure is costing the people involved time and money. I am definitly waiting for it to be completed and will be looking into it as soon as it is ready. Remember the MPS is not a NA car and should not be compared directly. I had a Dyno run against a slighty modified 6 the other day and the difference between his car and mine was greater than 20KW ..(The look on his face of was not a happy one btw). If you want to compare our car against the MPS Turbo your cars or wait till the super charger from Comptech comes out then put it on then see what results you come out with.

[Gibbo]

Hey has anyone heard anything more about the reflash ??? Im begining to think that this might be the greatest trick ever pulled on the honda lovers of australia... lol I would love to hear if anyoine has got any news especially pricing and dyno figures or the like ... Cheers Gibbo...

[h22a accord]

i think with extensive engine work, you can get a NA k24A to have more than the mps (is it 190kw for the mps?) at the fly. I mean i know of a k20A in a DC5R thats probably putting around 170-180 kw at the flywheel... so with a big budget its defintiely possible



you might be able to match peak power outputs but unless you turbo the euro , you will never have enough torque to compete with the MPS.

[stephen8512]

lol stop usin the line from "the usual suspects"

[Chris_F]

h22a accord, what you said is true about torque... BUT lets not forget that the euro is nearly a full 300kg lighter than the mps and good power mods and tuning will also net torque not just peak power. I seriously think the euro could have potential to suprass an mps performance wise given enough money.. and no need to rule out FI but i think it'd be more satisfying to do it NA

[yfin]

Hey has anyone heard anything more about the reflash ??? Im begining to think that this might be the greatest trick ever pulled on the honda lovers of australia... lol I would love to hear if anyoine has got any news especially pricing and dyno figures or the like ... Cheers Gibbo...

I share your frustration re the delay as owners end up moving on to bigger and better things (eg different cars). If you check out www.hondata.com.au there is some detail re pricing. I really think it is going to be something special - better than the US results.

I think with Hondata and I/h/e we are going to eventually see Euros crack a mid 14 sec 1/4 mile- maybe I am dreaming but I think it is achievable given a low 15s is possible with the stock car on a good day with a good driver.

Chris I don't think the Euro is a match for a MPS which from memory can do a low 14sec. Maybe with more N/A mods including flywheel, lower final drive, etc you might just might keep up with a stock MPS over the 1/4.

[Omotesando]

I'll still prefer the EURO over the MPS any day, despite the stock vs stock performance difference.

Much better fuel economy, cheaper car but overall better built. Granted I haven't taken the MPS out for a drive but looking at the figures if I wanted a fast car I wouldn't pick the MPS at all since it isn't even fast enough..

May be I'm just biased.