Ethanol is not bad as i thought

[twing]

http://www.lotustrophy.com.au/sites/lotuschamp/FileLib/MiddletonReport-TechnicalReportonPowerGeneratingCapabilitiesofComm onFuels.pdf

It's actually better for low rpm driving. Good for environment and wallet too (cheaper). Will get the ethanol once I clean my engine.

[BLKCRX]

All American fuels run a minimum of 15% ethanol… I still say NO to ethanol thow from a tuning point of view !
Ethanol runs your car lean, so you need to add more fuel to bring it back to normal levels, the end result is you use more fuel ! thus wasting more money, it’s a stupid suggestion to add ethanol to fuel to save tax money !!



Regards James

[krasyvy]

BP Ultimate for me only thanks

[Dtegra]

All American fuels run a minimum of 15% ethanol… I still say NO to ethanol thow from a tuning point of view !
Ethanol runs your car lean, so you need to add more fuel to bring it back to normal levels, the end result is you use more fuel ! thus wasting more money, it’s a stupid suggestion to add ethanol to fuel to save tax money !!



Regards James
i beg to differ..
i used to always get caltex vortex (98) always
then i heard that the boost 98 one was good more Kms and in street machine i read and article about it it got more power then normal fuel

so i took a go at it and before on average if i filled my tank right up id get like 400kms average ..
i put boost 98 and im at 499 and can atleast get another 50kms out of it so u do the math even read street machine its the one with the orange monaro on the cover flick thru find the article..dont knock it till u try it

[BLKCRX]

dude 98oct fuel does NOT contain ethanol !! this is a ethanol topic. not octane !
ethanol does not increase your octane rating.

And yes 98 octane fuel is much more fuel efficient than normal fuel, that’s not the point, the point is adding ethanol = to sum it up quickly = BAD

[ProECU]

Ethanol runs your car lean, so you need to add more fuel to bring it back to normal levels, the end result is you use more fuel ! thus wasting more money

Thats a circular argument.

fuel = fuel + ethanol
your argument.....> If ethanol runs car lean then you need more fuel, hence

fuel = fuel + ethanol
fuel = (fuel + ethanol) + ethanol.......> basic substitution
thus
fuel = fuel + 2*ethanol


According to yur claim, this would run the car even leaner and not bring it back to normal levels as claimed.

[lazymofo]

still not a fan of ethanol!!

[zoopsta]

You can't do that ProECU:

If you assume fuel = fuel + ethanol => ethanol = 0

Hence more "fuel" will increase both fuel and ethanol in proportion

[BLKCRX]

Yep that is correct Evan, 10% of ethanol in your fuel changes your air fuel ratio by NEGATIVE .1 of lambda on average.

With all the testing and research and design HondaTech Australia / Hondata Australia have been doing with the Australian 2003 2005 and 2005 Honda Accord Euro (K24 vtec engine), we have been doing a comparison between the USA fuels and Australia fuels we have had a special fuels made by CSR Ethanol with a blends of 5% 10% and 15% ethanol using 91 95 and 98 octane fuels. The effects on power and fuel efficiently were quite interesting to say the very least.

Regards James

[ProECU]

You can't do that ProECU:

If you assume fuel = fuel + ethanol => ethanol = 0

Hence more "fuel" will increase both fuel and ethanol in proportion

you most definately CAN do that.

let me rephrase it:

Fuel = a*Fuel + b*Ethanol, where a+b=1, b<a
more fuel=>
Fuel = a*(a*Fuel+b*Ethanol) + b*Ethanol
Fuel = a^2*Fuel + b( 1+a)*Ethanol


Now, plug your figures in and you will see that i'm correct, that adding more "Fuel" as originally stated by James will run your car LEANER.

James' circular claim that you need to add more fuel from a tuning perspective is WRONG...... becaause doing so will run you further into LEAN.

Once again James, you've tried to mask the original point with red-herring data and clouding/confusing the point with irrelevant information.

[ProECU]

Yep that is correct Evan, 10% of ethanol in your fuel changes your air fuel ratio by NEGATIVE .1 of lambda on average.

..and right here you are agreeeing with my argument !

[ProECU]

Ethanol runs your car lean, so you need to add more fuel to bring it back to normal levels
Regards James

This is the point i'm debating.

James, dont know if you did debating at school, but generally, you pick one side of the argument and stick to it.

[ginganggooly]

when it comes to questions of consumption and efficiency, i think what you need to actually look at is the energy levels of the fuel, i.e. how much energy is stored for a given mass of fuel. right or wrong?

[BLKCRX]

Evan what are you blabaling on about this time ? debating dude I’m on the lean side of the fence, always have been ! Stop trying 2 twist words…. Can you read this morning !! LOL

FACT 10% of ethanol in your fuel changes your air fuel ratio by NEGATIVE .1 of lambda on average.

Regards James

[Savant]

Can we just have 1 friggin thread where you two don't go on like little ****ing girls!!

[BLKCRX]

I would tend 2 agree with that, ;-)

[aaronng]

LOL... What a nice way to start the weekend, with a debate! Haha.
Anyway, there are 3 sides to the ethanol story.

#1: Ethanol raises octane number. Yes, 10% gives about 3 points. So if you took 95 oct, added 10% eth, and you'd get an e10 blend at 98 oct. If you took 98 oct, added 10%, then you'd theoretically get 101 octane, but I haven't seen anyone do this. Souce: http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-05.pdf.

#2: Ethanol has a lower heat of combustion than octane. So you basically get less energy when it is ignited. Octane (equivalent to 100 octane): 33.76 kJ/ml, ethanol: 24.12 kJ/ml. So assuming pure 98 oct fuel is 33.09 kJ/ml, then e10 made from 95 octane fuel + 10% ethanol is 31.28 kJ/ml. It's a small difference of 1.8 kJ/ml which is 5.4% of the original. Based on a fuel consumption of 10L/100km you'd be getting 10.57L/100km, which is a value that most of us would attribute to the fuel pump stopping at different times! Based on a usual 600km per tank, you'd instead get 567.6 which is a 32.4km difference. If you were slightly less heavy on the throttle for a few days, you could offset this difference.

One interesting thing from #2 is that since E10 has a lower heat of combustion compared to pure petrol, wouldn't it burn cooler and offset a lean condition instead?
Ideally: C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O
But incomplete combustion gives: C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO + O2 + 3H2O
So you could get 1 O2 if combustion was incomplete. This might be what the lambda sensor is picking up.

#3: Ethanol can damage rubber seals. But then again, so can pure petrol! I don't think that in the places where seals would experience high temperature or exposure to fuel that they would use regular rubber. Remember, many additives can be added to rubber to change its properties. Look at your tyres! It's made from rubber but mere ethanol (100% even) is not going to hurt it! Testing on modern cars show that they can use e10 over a long period of time. e20 that is sold in the states on the other hand can only be used on newer cars.

Have to run now, I'll get the source of the info later. But if it was me, I would stick to pure petrol. Why? Because in the end, the fuel companies will have a lower cost using ethanol in E10, the government still pockets the fuel tax and we as the consumers get hit by the same price at the bowser!

[wynode]

I don't see an argument between BLKCRX and Pro ECU.......yet! Just a good debate :)


when it comes to questions of consumption and efficiency, i think what you need to actually look at is the energy levels of the fuel, i.e. how much energy is stored for a given mass of fuel. right or wrong?

But you need to also consider how much of that energy is converted to something usefull that does work (to move the piston). But I think Aaron mentioned this later ;)

[BLKCRX]

I don't see an argument between BLKCRX and Pro ECU.......yet! Just a good debate :)

;)

How can there be a debate when Evan in agreeing to what i said ;-)

[ProECU]

Jamey,

you need to get off that smack.

[BLKCRX]

Smack i don't do that shit ;) i only make it n sell it !!

JK!!

Regards James

[poid]

#3: Ethanol can damage rubber seals. But then again, so can pure petrol! I don't think that in the places where seals would experience high temperature or exposure to fuel that they would use regular rubber. Remember, many additives can be added to rubber to change its properties. Look at your tyres! It's made from rubber but mere ethanol (100% even) is not going to hurt it! Testing on modern cars show that they can use e10 over a long period of time. e20 that is sold in the states on the other hand can only be used on newer cars.

this depends on what research you read...i think its pretty much completely agreed that a 10% blend will not cause damage (from the fuel itself, not including any arguments about running lean etc).

However, some researchers have concluded that it is not damaging to any of the rubber used in cars at all.

For what its worth, in Brazil a lot of cars run on either a high ethanonl blend or pure ethanol.

I think the greatest risk is when you get a servo not blending properly, but just dumping a bunch of ethanol in their tanks and giving an inconsistent fuel mixture.

[aaronng]

this depends on what research you read...i think its pretty much completely agreed that a 10% blend will not cause damage (from the fuel itself, not including any arguments about running lean etc).

However, some researchers have concluded that it is not damaging to any of the rubber used in cars at all.

For what its worth, in Brazil a lot of cars run on either a high ethanonl blend or pure ethanol.

I think the greatest risk is when you get a servo not blending properly, but just dumping a bunch of ethanol in their tanks and giving an inconsistent fuel mixture.
Yup, my conclusion was yes, ethanol can damage rubber seals. But our cars do not use rubber seals that are of the same composition as the ones that get damaged. Our cars have rubber seals of a different composition to withstand petrol, heat and shear force from positive pressure. That same seal can withstand e10. The issue was played up to fight against e10. I'm only not using e10 because the money saved using ethanol is going into someone's pocket and not ours. :)

Do you know if the engines in Brazil use different seals or fuel lines to withstand the gasohol there?

[poid]

i'm not sure exactly what they do down there...havent looked that far into it to be honest. I've only seen what mods needed to be done to cars in the 1970's

[aaronng]

Info I can find says that the difference is the fuel tank (probably something that can withstand the larger ratio of ethanol. I think they use 80%?) and a piggyback computer that tells the ECU if it is running petrol or ethanol.

[twing]

I'm only not using e10 because the money saved using ethanol is going into someone's pocket and not ours. :)

United sells the 'unleaded plus' that has 10% ethanol. It costs 10 cents less than normal unleaded. Isn't that a saving? I don't really think about where the $$$ goes. As long as it gives saving to customer, I'll go for it. Not to mention that I can use the saving to upgrade my ride :D .

[yaehbhi]

United sells the 'unleaded plus' that has 10% ethanol. It costs 10 cents less than normal unleaded. Isn't that a saving? I don't really think about where the $$$ goes. As long as it gives saving to customer, I'll go for it. Not to mention that I can use the saving to upgrade my ride :D .
Hi there all, has anyone used United's ULP ethanol blend in CR-V (2003). what has been users experiences in this regard. Is this any better in consumption compared with normal UL from Shell, Caltex etc. Thanks!

[dsp26]

i beg to differ..
i used to always get caltex vortex (98) always
then i heard that the boost 98 one was good more Kms and in street machine i read and article about it it got more power then normal fuel

so i took a go at it and before on average if i filled my tank right up id get like 400kms average ..
i put boost 98 and im at 499 and can atleast get another 50kms out of it so u do the math even read street machine its the one with the orange monaro on the cover flick thru find the article..dont knock it till u try it

i agree... i also did an independent controlled test with different fuels over 3 months and filling up weekly on the same days.

United Petrols Boost98 provided more KMs per $... not as many KMS as non ethanol 98oct blends but the most per $ relative to every other price. HOWEVER, this was on MY car... depends how everyone else set theirs up.

I can post the results for anyone interested.

The only one i didn't test was Shell 100oct.. which i assume would provide the most power and KMs due to the lean effect, however due to the cost, i can almost guaranee it's no where near as feasible as 98oct.

I've tried the new Shell V-Power 100oct in my B16a2 and can confirm that my arse says yes to more responsiveness and mileage. HOWEVER, my car came with an aftermarket fuel rail which is causing me to run uber rich anyway despite turning fuel pressure down to 30psi. Even then i'm sure you guys are aware that B series motors anyway are factory tuned rich.

Ethanol is primarily advertised as a "tax reduction" of sorts. But i prefer to look at the greener side of things on top of the cost savings. These include:
- Cleaner emission
- And it is a renewable BI-product of sugar cane harvesting/production. It is not something that is produced specifically for this purpose

[eg92b16a]

I can honestly say that I have been using the United Boost 98 for the last 18 months and have found the following:
1. Car untuned (B16A) gets max 450Km to a tank
2. Car tuned in July last year to Boost 98 fuel and gets 500km to a tank
3. added intake manifold in November last year, still gets 500km to a tank.
4. Have been doing a test this year doing 2 tanks of Vortex 98 and then reverting back to Boost 98 for 2 tanks. Still get 500km to a tank with Vortex 98 but maybe slightly more responsive. To me not very noticeable.

So for me, I'll run the Boost 98. Same fuel economy as vortex 98 but 10 cents per litre cheaper.
I'd rather be saving money.