CTR CAMS in B16a = raising limiter?

[**Ghost**]

Just wondering whehther i need to raise the revlimit on my car to get the most outta the CTR cams or whether its sufficient to have fuel management:D

[iamhappy46]

Buy a CTR computer to really get some benefit, raises rev-limit in the process.
Found this last night when I was looking for parts:
http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=59_78&products_id=792

or buy an aftermarket ECU and be able to modify it with each upgrade...

[EGB16A]

Just wondering whehther i need to raise the revlimit on my car to get the most outta the CTR cams or whether its sufficient to have fuel management:D

i'd be looking to raise the rev limit a little, nothing a decent aftermarket computer couldn't handle.

[**Ghost**]

i've got a paperweight Mugen Full Race ECu available if i need it... i suppose i can hook fuel management to that

[Limbo]

There's no use in raising the rev limit unless you've modded the engine to handle higher reving, i.e valve retainers, stem valves, valve springs etc... The cams are tuned for higher RPM but this won't be much help if your engine can't take it. You'll just end up blowing the engine or destroying the piston rings/pistons

[ProECU]

DONT go raising revlimit if you dont plan on installing the appropriate springs/retainers.

The Mugen ECU may not necessarily be the correct fueling choice as remember the b16b's are a B18C block, destroked which means a very long rod and breathing characteristics will change, especially in the upper rpm band where fuel tends to taper after max torque.

I would personally stick to the stock ECU and have it chipped (if you cant afford a tune) accordingly.
A vafc or similar might be useful, i've never liked/used them so I dont know if they can raise the limiter.... i doubt it.

[**Ghost**]

vafc cant do it, neither can emanage

i wish i could chip the damn thing but i got obd2 and its a huge hassle to find ECU, chip it, find harness, etc

i've upgraded by springs to CTR ones..,.. i chose not to do retainers not cos of cost but cos they are meant to be same as normal EK4 ones?|

[pillow]

I would leave it untill you can afford a tuneable ecu solution. You wouldn't really notice a difference if you were to raise your rev limiter with the motor as it is (I'm assuming you have I/H/E). The CTR has a higher CR also. I wouldn't bother messing around with your rev limiter till you get the car tuned, that's what I did.

[**Ghost**]

i can get my car tuned wth a VAFC atm (got it on and tuned to current specs)

i shoudl clairfy my question... should i go

1. EK4 P30 ECU + VAFC
2. EK9/MUGEN ECU + VAFC

Between #1 and #2, the only diff is the rev limiter/redline... given that i have CTR valvesprings i should be able to rev higher

Stock P30 goes up to 8200rpm. Considering the EK9 goes up to 8400rpm there might be somethign to gain by revving up another 200rpm, BUT i'm pretty sure Ek9 makes peak power at 8200 anyway.

So the question is not what i need to do to rev another 200rpm, but whether its necessary in terms of making power to go that extra rpm

[pillow]

I have CTR cams and valvesprings in my jdm b16 and I made power up to around 8500rpm. Best way of determining which of the two solutions you suggested would be to run them back to back on the dyno.

[FR33K]

i can get my car tuned wth a VAFC atm (got it on and tuned to current specs)

i shoudl clairfy my question... should i go

1. EK4 P30 ECU + VAFC
2. EK9/MUGEN ECU + VAFC

Between #1 and #2, the only diff is the rev limiter/redline... given that i have CTR valvesprings i should be able to rev higher

Stock P30 goes up to 8200rpm. Considering the EK9 goes up to 8400rpm there might be somethign to gain by revving up another 200rpm, BUT i'm pretty sure Ek9 makes peak power at 8200 anyway.

So the question is not what i need to do to rev another 200rpm, but whether its necessary in terms of making power to go that extra rpm

well u dont wanna be hittin peak power exactly on rev limiter.. you gotta go over a bit...
for example.. its like saying my b16s peak power is at 7600 so shift then... it will be slow as considering the redline is at 8000rpm...

if a CTR hits peak power at 8200.. where is its redline ??

[**Ghost**]

8500? fark thats pretty good

u didnt change retainers tho right? i'm pretty sure ek4 vs ek9 retainers are the same

i really want to run uberdata now

[pillow]

Yep, B16A retainers = EK9 = every other Bseries vtec motor (im fairly sure). Have you searched on Honda-Tech? Heaps and heaps of info about CTR cams in a b16a and other issues surrounding it.

[**Ghost**]

thanks for all the help... honda-tech hard to search for some reason but i've tried thanks

just wondering, wot power kw did u make at 8500rpm? (if u dont wanna post it here pm me) and wot mods?

i should have gone the recaros instead of the cams lol... htis is really hassling me that i need a new ECU

[BLKCRX]

CTR cam’s work very nicely in the b16 engine ;) you will find plenty of people running them, typically on a b16 engine with STOCK retainers and upgraded valve springs using CTR cams the rev limit is set to 9000rpm, these cams make power very nicely up to 8600rpm then drop off power.
Stock retainers are good for 10,000rpm ;) over 10,000rpm and you should look at replacing them to lighten the valve train. Professional tuning is the key.

Regards James

[**Ghost**]

thanks for that james, first positive thing i've heard all day :)

would the bottom end hold up to 9000rpm tho? obviously valve train is a weakest link, but wot will bearings and rod bolts

and post some pics of those chicks u had b4 (we'll all get a look before the mods delete them)

[BLKCRX]

The stock bottom end should hold up with no problems with 9000rpm assuming everything is in good order, but I can’t comment on your setup as iv never seen it. If something isn’t perfect, it will break, and it will cause catastrophic damage at any engine RPM. Remember the b16 engine has a very good rod stroke ratio so it likes to rev. having said that though just reving the engine harder doesn’t make power unless its tuned correctly by a professional.

Meh as for Chics ;) there always around thats part of racing ;) girls n car's always go hand in hand ;) ill tune the girls just as hard as i tune the cars...

Regards James

[ProECU]

Ghost,
be very careful of internet mech's & self proclaimed professionals.

I wouldn't be operating a B16A into the realm of the B16B (9000rpm) regardless of camming for a variety of reasons.

a) 7mm extra rod length of the B16B, gives around a 1.8r/s ratio compared to 1.74 of a stock b16a.
Have you ever seen the B16B rods, they are designed to reduce reciprocating mass. They are VERY different to the stock B16A rod!

b) Stock rod bolts & Stock Rods at that operating rpm range - Material stretch & quench clearance issues start to become a factor.

c) B16B crankshaft although displaces the same volume, is different in design & finish to the B16A.


This is a model I built YEARS ago, which turned up on a technical resource recently.
http://www.natesbox.com/tuning/Evans%20Engine%20Mathmatical%20Model.xls
It models piston velocity & acceleration.

Then again, Honda tend to overengineer everything.

Take a look at it and then rethink your redline.

Enjoy.

[**Ghost**]

evan thanks for the help, but i have no idea how to use ur spreadsheet :)

me noob... :(

so wot do YOU recommend my redline to be consdiering i've upgraded valvesprings>? 8200 b16a standard?

[ProECU]

Work out where Torque starts to drop off and go about 200rpm over, depending on gearing.

There is no point (aside from gearing) in revving much further past this point & stressing the engine just becuase it sounds cool.

[pornstar]

Agree with proecu

[TAKEN]

I wouldn't go past about 8500rpm with a B series with the std rods, upgrade your rod bolts and all will be ok.. when upgrading your valvetrain upgrade all the parts.. I have seen plenty of retainers break and cause alot of damage..

[pillow]

so wot do YOU recommend my redline to be consdiering i've upgraded valvesprings>? 8200 b16a standard?


Work out where Torque starts to drop off and go about 200rpm over, depending on gearing.

Get your car on a dyno and have a look at your torque curve;)

[**Ghost**]

i'll post results on thursday

[BlitZ]

cant wait for teh results

[pillow]

Any news or results?

[**Ghost**]

ahaha sorry guysy i completely forgot...

i got them in and tuned by Andy/Pornstar last week...

End result has been extremelly good. Its not just the matter of a 5kw increase at wheels, its more that the whole car makes power throughout the revrange

We're going to dyno it (just power run) again next week going to the same dyno i went last time for maximum consistency

will post it up then

[ProECU]

Post a dyno sheet, with a/f so I can tear it apart

[ONV73C]

Yeh that ^

And what did u end up using for tuning? VAFC?

[numlock]

how many km's has your engine done?

[**Ghost**]

how many km's has your engine done?

dont see how thats relevant?

and yes i used vafc

[kayot1k]

what colour is your rocker cover

[**Ghost**]

what colour is your rocker cover

i dont see how that is relevant either?


has this become the spam thread? and fyi, all b16A covers are black

[numlock]

what colour is your rocker cover
lol
because i was wanting to do the same setup that you have have but was thinking that if my engine has done too mant km's than there's no point!
is that ok GHOST?

[**Ghost**]

well my engine has done approx 150,000, and its not too tired to do the cams

doing cams is actually good cos ur probably due for a headgasket change and spark plug seats (the rubber htingies) change neway

[ProECU]

so where's the graph?

[pillow]

well my engine has done approx 150,000, and its not too tired to do the cams

doing cams is actually good cos ur probably due for a headgasket change and spark plug seats (the rubber htingies) change neway

Did you do a headgasket change? Most people don't take the head off to change cams as it's easier not to

[DynoDave]

I have read this thread a few times just to make sure I was not missing something.All this talk about these cams and the valve spring change and then a set of cam gears.And you run some bullshit form of tuning device I just cant understand how and why you guys do this to yourselfs.You go to all the expense of the valve gear upgrade but you still cant change your timing which is 50% of your tuning.Go figure and then the next I will start to read where you only made 5kw more.And if you tell me that those cams made more bottom end power your dreaming these cams are designed to make power in a COMPLETELY different design engine and at a RPM that you only see a few times when ever you drive the car,tell me what else did you do the the cylinder head when you where doing the cam and spring install.I could keep typing and give you all some info but I really just think its a waste of time.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ProECU]

I've been trying to tell everyone on this forum that CTR cams in a stock motor is NOT an upgrade, only to be met with disbelief and ridicule from some.

I still want to see that dyno plot.

Illegal if you're reading this... here's the proof, straight from Australias BEST Honda dyno tuner !.....

Ghost, i'm afraid you would've made more than a 5kw gain with the stock B16 cams and at a lower rpm

[kayot1k]

:eek:

[EGB16A]

I've been trying to tell everyone on this forum that CTR cams in a stock motor is NOT an upgrade, only to be met with disbelief and ridicule from some.

I still want to see that dyno plot.

Illegal if you're reading this... here's the proof, straight from Australias BEST Honda dyno tuner !.....

Ghost, i'm afraid you would've made more than a 5kw gain with the stock B16 cams and at a lower rpm

so taking advantage of these cams would require head work/IM/header?? assuming tuning has been adressed with a good ecu and a tuner who knows what they are doing... if not, what else?

[DynoDave]

so taking advantage of these cams would require head work/IM/header?? assuming tuning has been adressed with a good ecu and a tuner who knows what they are doing... if not, what else?
You go to the top of the class :thumbsup: .You hit the nail on the head its more about airflow and not just 1 part.HONDA power comes from the head, so use yours to design a GOOD combination to make power not just throw in some JDM BLING camshafts.
Regards Dyno Dave

[**Ghost**]

I have read this thread a few times just to make sure I was not missing something.All this talk about these cams and the valve spring change and then a set of cam gears.And you run some bullshit form of tuning device I just cant understand how and why you guys do this to yourselfs.You go to all the expense of the valve gear upgrade but you still cant change your timing which is 50% of your tuning.Go figure and then the next I will start to read where you only made 5kw more.And if you tell me that those cams made more bottom end power your dreaming these cams are designed to make power in a COMPLETELY different design engine and at a RPM that you only see a few times when ever you drive the car,tell me what else did you do the the cylinder head when you where doing the cam and spring install.I could keep typing and give you all some info but I really just think its a waste of time.
Regards Dyno Dave

by timing u mean cam timing? or do u mean VTEC engagement point dave? or ignition timing?

Before i got cams i got myself

1. i/h/e
2. thin headgasket (cometic? cosmetic? comsetic?, i cant remember)
3. mild porting of valve chambers
4. shaved a bit off the head

admittedlly i did not ge thte best of ECUs... like a motec... but for my purposes i was under the impressio9n a VAFC was enough to handle the mods.

of course, no argument i could have gained more with a independent ECU, but i think the VAFC was sufficient for my aims and purposes

and no didnt get a intake manifold or throttle body upgrade

[DynoDave]

by timing u mean cam timing? or do u mean VTEC engagement point dave? or ignition timing?

Before i got cams i got myself

1. i/h/e
2. thin headgasket (cometic? cosmetic? comsetic?, i cant remember)
3. mild porting of valve chambers
4. shaved a bit off the head

admittedlly i did not ge thte best of ECUs... like a motec... but for my purposes i was under the impressio9n a VAFC was enough to handle the mods.

of course, no argument i could have gained more with a independent ECU, but i think the VAFC was sufficient for my aims and purposes

and no didnt get a intake manifold or throttle body upgrade
Ignition timing more important as fuel mixture when tuning.The rest is not to bad of a setup but for that sort of money you spent and you only got what 5kw.What a waste of your cash, what was the power output again there are many Vtec engines out there running around making great power with just bolton's tuned correctly.The ECU thing is getting cheaper by the week and there are many solutions around these days for Honda's but a VAFC in your setup should have been the last thing to use.Not because they are just a masking device but you need to tune your setup 100%.I would like to see a dyno graph on the before and after camshaft change you do not have to post it on here just e-mail it to me.
Regards Dyno Dave

[tinkerbell]

admittedlly i did not ge thte best of ECUs... like a motec... but for my purposes i was under the impressio9n a VAFC was enough to handle the mods.


yes, a $200 air flow interceptor can "handle the mods"

but it also will not allow you to gain most benefit from them :thumbsup:

but dont feel bad cause you decided to not to purchase an expensive full EMS solution just yet...

[pornstar]

tinkerbell he doesnt, i tuned the vafc for him, and i did tell him the pros and cons, he's been very happy with the results from what he has told me.

Dynodave, i already told him about all that, he knew that to be the case, but he didnt wanna spend and he already had the vafc in there, it was his decision to forego going another ecu.

[**Ghost**]

as andy/pornstar said i knew the full implications of only being able to control air/fuel/vtec engagement and not ignition control

however, i wasnt going to spend an additional $300 on an emanage, plus install (presuming i could sell vafc) for the extra gain i couldve had over the VAFC.

My setup was always designed to be mild build... and i've found from my layman's research that extracting every little % out of a steup requires lots of $$$, which in my PERSONAL view is not worth the money due to diminishing returns

for example, say if i spend $500 i can get+10kw... extracting every ounce of performance = 13kw... but would cost $1000... thats just a stupid number example btw not based on nething

[pornstar]

but u were told emange wasnt the best in this case :)

[todaek9]

Honda is always about the Head flow and i think alot of people don't get this in their mind...if people spend more money doing up the head plus advance timing to the cams, may be they will finally understand how honda works...

Anyway, CTR cams is just a minor upgrade for B16a guys with budget, and they will gain some power by using that if they know what to do...I personally think that Shaving the head is a total stupid suggestion because Honda did the head so perfectly, that you just need to bore up about 1mm in size, diff head gasket, and allow good valve piston clearance, 68mm tb, bore intake, raise compression, then you will have a good responsive engine...plus, close ratio gear's is an advantage if it comes to this...

I also recently found out that, most people will suggest changing bigger cams and all, but not to play with std parts...i wonder why...not to say you got huge hp with all goodies means u will do much good's...