Ecu Chipping/socketing

[pornstar]

There seems to be a growing trend of people who are intersted in socketing/chipping their ecus to be able to tune freewares. The attraction being that the ecus are free besides the cost of socketing/chipping their stock ecus.

I've been able to use Uberdata on my own car now for testing purposes, and have been asked many questions with regard to tuning these eproms and other how to's. Im not the best person to speak to about socketing these ecus, but I'll try and help where possibly.

Those who are interested in this can ask the questions right here in thsi thread, and ill try and give as much support for this as possible. (Mods, hope this doesnt outstep any rules, i couldnt see any, so Im posting it up, if it does, please let me know which part and I'll modify where necessary).

For socketing/chipping ecus there are a few people on ozhonda here that can do this for you, and this is not an advertisement for anyone etc, so do ur maths and find out who they are.

Some common questions are:

1) can my obd2 ecu be socketed/chipped to be tuneable? Apparently there is a way, but the costs far outweight the benefit. Its much easier to just get a conversion harness from obd2 to obd1 and then use a socketed obd1 ecu.

2) which freeware is best? I dont think anyone can best answer that unless they have gone through each and every program and tested them. I've used the Crome and the Uberdata, and they both work fine if you know what you are doing.

3) I've been told these freewares are crap and dont/wont work, is this true? My answer is pretty simple, the results speak for themselves, there are a few members on this board who run these freewares on their daily driven rides and they work well and run reliably! If the freewares are that crap, how is it that these examples are possible? Answer, Id like to think that the freewares work :)

Ok thats the end of the list I can think of, im hoping to take pics where possible to help with this post, as visual aids really do help. Just shoot your questions on here and lets leave the ecu bashing BS out of this, if you think Hondata is great, thats great, but dont go posting about that here. If you think proECU is great, thats great too, but thsi post isnt about which ECU is good, better or best.

Lets keep it clean and fire questions away. If I dont know the answer I will simply say I dont know! Id particularly like to thank Poid for his help in getting me up to scratch with this stuff. Thanks Pedeh!

[saxman]

I've been running uber for years, and have tuned several other cars with it and would be happy to field any questions that you can't answer.

[barefootbonzai]

Hey Andy with most people who use these freeware programs to tune there cars, do they usually tune it themselves? If so what is the difficult level and what's involuved. I am quite keen on learning how to tune to save some $$$$

[Eclipsor]

You read my mind. :) Have just been looking into this stuff recently.

How necessary is it to add a wideband o2 sensor to an uberdata setup? Because the cost of the sensor+control module seems to even out the price savings you make by not paying for the program (compared to say hondata). Or would adding a wideband o2 increase the tunability of the system beyond that of the systems I'm comparing it to.

[saxman]

a wideband is needed to tune. Period.

This is the case with any ecu set up. Want to tune the aem ems? need a wideband. Want to tune hondata? need a wideband. The list goes on.

Without a wideband, with any ecu set up, you're just shooting in the dark.


Uber isn't that difficult to tune for a basic set up. Say you want to run 8 psi, don't need anything crazy, etc. It's pretty easy to learn to tune. You may sacrafice some peak power for ease of tuning, but to get you something that's going to get you going, it's not that difficult. I would say the same is true for all the ecu softwares. It's just a matter of learning the interface and some basic tuning principles to create a rather mild tune.

[tinkerbell]

is uberdata/crome et al. 'real time' tuning,

ie can make changes live on the dyno?

[saxman]

is uberdata/crome et al. 'real time' tuning,

ie can make changes live on the dyno?
this has more to do with the hardware that you're using than the software

if you have something like the moates.net ostrich, then yes, you can... if you're using just an eprom burner, then no

[LVNIT]

You read my mind. :) Have just been looking into this stuff recently.

How necessary is it to add a wideband o2 sensor to an uberdata setup? Because the cost of the sensor+control module seems to even out the price savings you make by not paying for the program (compared to say hondata). Or would adding a wideband o2 increase the tunability of the system beyond that of the systems I'm comparing it to.

Most people buy the wideband if they're going to tune the car themselves, if that is the case, it is a must :) If you are simply taking the car to a tuner, then it is not needed.

Tinkerbell: Real time tuning can be set up on Crome and i've forgotten whether you can do it on Uberdata

[tinkerbell]

this has more to do with the hardware that you're using than the software

if you have something like the moates.net ostrich, then yes, you can... if you're using just an eprom burner, then no

so if either of you coould out line the steps taken to "'tune' a car,

1. socket ECU
2. burn base chip
3. go for a drive
4. ????
etc

that would be great

as for me - i goto a dyno, and the guy tuning changes some settings *live*, then i go home...

how are these systems different?

[saxman]

I have just an eprom burner... so tuning for me basically means we go for a drive... I take some readings, we pull over, I burn a new map, we drive a bit, and go from there... it does take a little longer, but I'm cheap and don't have the $200 for an ostrich to burn


if I had an ostrich, I could easily just change things as we drive, and call it a day

[LVNIT]

I use Uberdata, but Crome is similar to this

1. Get your ECU socketed
2. Open your cars stock basemap
3. Change any settings that are required
4. I use a datalogging cable and a Wideband to log the cars values to my laptop
5. Drive the car
6. Open up the datalogging values and make adjustments where needed.

I have a perfect idle, really nice part throttle (just like stock in vacuum) and in boost its running very nice.

[tinkerbell]

LVNIT

can you outline the costs of using Uberdata? like the retail costs of the parts needed?

[LVNIT]

Sure thing :)

Techedge Wideband - $320 DIY or $500 prebuilt
Moates chip burner - $120

If you are OBD2, obd2 - obd1 conversion harness - $130
If you are OBD2, Socketed P28 ecu - $240

If you just need to chip the ecu, budget about $70-$90 to buy the parts needed. I could be way off on this, could be a lot less.

[tinkerbell]

and the wideaband replaces the OEM o2 sensor?

how do you link the laptop to the ECU?

what minimum spces does hte laptop need to be?

[LVNIT]

You can do a few things in regards to the OEM o2 sensor.. Replace it with the wideband sensor, disable closed loop & heater and just run the car on the ECU values or add another bung in the exhaust so you can have both wideband & o2 sensor.

If your wideband has a 0-1v output then you can connect that to your ECU eliminating the need for a stock sensor, I am aware that you can also use 0-5v values aswel.

For datalogging you make or buy a cable, which then wires into the ecu and connects to your laptop via a serial or usb port.

If you were talking about connecting the ecu to the laptop to make changes, you use a moates chip burner, take the chip out of the ecu, put it in the chip burner (which connects to your laptop/computer via usb) and use the software to burn the new map values. If it was in regards to real time programming, you use an ostrich, but I am not very familiar with this method :)

The laptop that I use is only a P3 500mhz with 128mb of ram, nothing spectacular, im sure you could do it with a P2 300mhz and 64mb of ram :)

[epren]

I use CromePro($150 us) which has real time datalogging (live tunning).
Innovate Lm-1 wideband
moates ostrich
burn1 chip burner
chipped p28
hondalog for datalogging
some sites to look at moates.net, pgmfi.org

[pornstar]

Hey Andy with most people who use these freeware programs to tune there cars, do they usually tune it themselves? If so what is the difficult level and what's involuved. I am quite keen on learning how to tune to save some $$$$

Hey Duy,

Tuning isnt all that hard if u understand the internal combustion engine. All things aside, its easier and cheaper if you use a tuner who owns a dyno.

The guys that use uberdata through me use me as their tuner, it keeps costs really low that way. As I'll outline below, using a tuner who has the software and hardware will allow you to have a tuneable ecu in most cases for the cost of just a tune on other systems. The last uberdata that i tuned, the guy ended up paying an amount*, and he happily takes on silvias and 180sxs that have turbos! :thumbsup:

here are my steps that I take:

1) socket my own p28/p72 if I have one, or buy one of these readily available ecus. Buying one will cost me about 175 for the ecu, socketing my ecu will cost me about 75-100 bux depending on who I use.

2) I buy a burner if I dont have one, about 175 bux to buy one of these, and buy 1-2 eprom chips which is about 5 bux each, so 10 bux or so.

3) Hire a dyno and tune it there, I dont need to buy a wideband for this system as the dyno already has one inbuilt so just use that one! Dyno prices vary, so I wont guide on you that for pricing.

4) go out and race some big power claiming p00fs and beat them with a stocker :)

its that simple! Heck I can make it even easier, this is an even more simplified list.

1) buy/socket my own ecu 75-100 bux

2) take it to a dyno tuner who has a burner, and let him burn and tune the eprom, tuners vary, but lets say 3-500.

3) go out and go sick RE ;)

Personally, since I tune and burn my own eproms, any socketed ecu that can accept an eprom will work, a few of my guys have done a tuneable ecu solution for their car for 150 bux, plus tuning! ie all done for 350, installed and tuned. IMO its better if u know a good tuner who has the eprom etc to just buy/socket an ecu, and let him do the rest!

hope that helps

*bennjamin edit. Dont use this for free plugs :) Help a bother out , DONT push services :)

[epren]

damn thats very cheap, ecu, chipped and dyno tuned.
how much do you pay for dyno time per hour?

[Eclipsor]

IMO its better if u know a good tuner who has the eprom etc to just buy/socket an ecu, and let him do the rest!

On that note. Does anyone know of anyone in Brisbane or surrounding areas who could do this? Or would I simply have to call every place I can find with a dyno and ask. Because it's not exactly a widely advertised solution in Australia yet.

[pornstar]

damn thats very cheap, ecu, chipped and dyno tuned.
how much do you pay for dyno time per hour?

Epren, I have a few contacts in melbourne who allow me to hire their dyno for cheap, where abouts in sydney are you? Perhaps I can hook u up over there, as I know a few workshops. PM me if that information is confidential :)

[KB]

Those who are interested in this can ask the questions right here in this thread, and ill try and give as much support for this as possible. (Mods, hope this doesnt outstep any rules, i couldnt see any, so Im posting it up, if it does, please let me know which part and I'll modify where necessary).

[wynode]

Ok guys this is a good thread with great info. Now I know all you 'tuners' out there like to get under each others skin so before you start doing that, let me remind you that we are here to SHARE information and NOT promote our products.

Good info here and lets keep anything not related to PM.

[pornstar]

honestly ben, i did state at the start if its out of line to pm me and we will modify the thread together as mods see fit to keep it in strict guidelines.

I do iterate that in my posts, a wideband is not necessary to keep costs down, as the dyno u use has this already and will be given to u when u hire it out. if u choose to tune it urself, thats even better free of charge on tuning time! and if u have a burner or access to one, its also great, but ive outlined all this. Im just finding it hard to give examples

[wynode]

OK guys now we've gota rough idea on price so thanks for that.

Now I have a question.

What if you don't have access to a dyno but only could do a street tune. Would this suffice? What added advantage does a dyno give you over the street (assuming you had time on your side.........but not access to a dyno)?

[KB]

yeh just get a datalogging cable, run it from your ecu and go for a drive. look at your "datalog" to see where you are running rich/lean and adjust, then reburn chip, lug in and drive. ect ect. until you got a nice a/f r

[KB]

what got me interested in the first place is that fact. And how its cheaper for me to buy a OBD1 P28+Obd2-1 Harness+Chip than an VAFC or simular. WHich is just a hack. Where as this is your actually changing the ecu's map.

[pillow]

So basically these free programs require you to burn a new chip everytime you want to change something? So they aren't real time then?

[epren]

well afr can be tuned on the street, timing is another thing that need to be tuned.
timing can only be tuned on the dyno, I know ppl can say that they can tune timing on the street. Its been done before but I wouldnt recommend it. Knock sensor and reading spark plugs are showing you what already HAPPENED. This is not the way to tune.

[pornstar]

OK guys now we've gota rough idea on price so thanks for that.

Now I have a question.

What if you don't have access to a dyno but only could do a street tune. Would this suffice? What added advantage does a dyno give you over the street (assuming you had time on your side.........but not access to a dyno)?

Wyn,
many will claim a dyno is a MUST, but IMO (and its only my personal opinion) its not 100% necessary.

The advantage is that you can see in real time what the gains are etc, u can also create an artificial "condition". Ie accelerating uphills and accelerating down hills are 2 different things. A dyno can replicate those conditions and do it safely without going to silly speeds at times :)

So yes imo a road tune can suffice.


Epren: there are plenty more devices that you use when tuning, u can listen for knock on the street using special headsets etc. For more experienced tuners (again my opinion), you can almost "feel" the engine and how it likes or dislikes something :)

[pornstar]

So basically these free programs require you to burn a new chip everytime you want to change something? So they aren't real time then?

pillow,
if u have certain tools they are real time, and the only burning is to "store" the information to the socketed ecu :)

[wynode]

Wyn,
many will claim a dyno is a MUST, but IMO (and its only my personal opinion) its not 100% necessary.


Now are you stating this as an experiance tuner? Would you say the same thing to someone who is just starting out (ie a novice tuner)?

I guess what i'm trying to say is that not all of us have access to a dyno and we'd like to get it as best as possible on the street before we can even get access to a dyno.

[pornstar]

Wyn, [u know ill get torn for this :( ] but yes as an experienced tuner, thats my opinion. As for the novice/beginner I would say a dyno is the place to be, its much safer, and u have much more time to tune points, cos id assume ud need more time as a newer tuner.

I think if u understand the engine dynamics, the street is perfectly fine, EXCEPT being a newer tuner, ud be far less inclined to try to push the envelope so to speak. IE youd probably not get 100% of what the engine can achieve.

[barefootbonzai]

Dam wish you guys where in brissy, bloody nothing up here.

[poid]

Now are you stating this as an experiance tuner? Would you say the same thing to someone who is just starting out (ie a novice tuner)?

I guess what i'm trying to say is that not all of us have access to a dyno and we'd like to get it as best as possible on the street before we can even get access to a dyno.

Wyn, i street tuned my car without a tuning background but having done my research into what needed to be done. Happy to say its been nearly 2 years since i first got the car up and running with the freeware and 18 months since its been running boosted using freeware to tune. Its never seen a dyno.

So if you are willing to put in a little time to understand the tuning basics then yes, an inexperienced tuner who has read up on things can street tune their own car

[poid]

How is it that several months ago, you claimed uberdata would cost $1500 to get running, now you're claiming $350 installed and tuned? What has changed?

you know the answer to that, go back and read the original thread if you like. Dont bring that sh*t in here and try to stir trouble

[tinkerbell]

when is ProECU going to be released?

if it is already released, how much will it cost for the hardware?

and does it provide real-time tuning ability?

[ProECU]

Tinkerbell

I dont want to turn this into a ProECU commercial. Trying to stay on topic.
All I will say, is that it WILL be affordable and it ONLY works in realtime.

If there is enough interest, I will write up a FAQ closer to release.
Now back on topic...

[epren]

I know first hand that CromePro(not freeware) is buggy.
But what can you do its the only thing available, If you claim that ProECU is not buggy as the products out there you will be a very wealthy man. Put it out there and sell it, Ill buy it for sure. After doing Efi university seminars and I learnt alot .I also learnt what pretend "tuners" do . Alot of people are getting "ripped off" .

[tinkerbell]

Tinkerbell

I dont want to turn this into a ProECU commercial. Trying to stay on topic.
All I will say, is that it WILL be affordable and it ONLY works in realtime.
Now back on topic...

i just want to know the approx hardware cost, i think we can make the comparisons ourselves based on the information that is provided.

you dont have to *sell* anything, you just need to continue to provide unbiased information.

AIAIK - it is a Ecu Chipping/socketing solution and shoudl be discussed in any thread claiming to be about Ecu Chipping/socketing

[ProECU]

I dont have an indicative price on manufacturing costs, so I cant give you an idea at this stage.

It will however be bundled with software for the end user... something that doesnt happen currently with other popular honda brands

[wynode]

Evan this really isn't the place to discuss any issues you have with pornstar please take it to PM.

There is good info in this thread so lets stick to talking about the freewares and ECU socketing/chipping.

[krasyvy]

Proecu - so you've developed a cheaper alternative to Hondata's "rude" prices? And this works just as well as Hondata?

I'm not saying that Hondata is good/bad but i'm curious to see how much cheaper this option is and how well it works up against others such as Hondata

[tinkerbell]

it is not in the market yet, so there is no way to answer that question.

by the sound of it, it will still be years away...

[saxman]

I think it's very possible to tune the car without a dyno, if your goal is a mild tune with low boost levels. You won't make the potential power that you could with fine tuning everything as it should be, and I certainly wouldn't risk it with a higher boost level, but as an alternative to the people running fmu's or the v-afc hack, a mild tune with a accurate a/f ratio and a conservative stepped retard is a HUGE improvement.

[tinkerbell]

saxman - you seem to be always talking in relation to turbo apps.

but downunder, there are very few boosted honda's, with NA dominating...

can you confirm if your comments are equally attributable to NA apps. as they are to boosted setups?

[ProECU]

I think it's very possible to tune the car without a dyno

So if I was to use uberdata and tune my car on road, what would the final cost be?
Andy - care to comment?

[pornstar]

Having spoken to Wyn, Im actually not allowed to post prices anymore, as Im sure you can read, the information previously listed on this thread can be used with a simple calculator to sumate the total cost for you.

What car is it, and what are u running? This way i can list what u need.

[tinkerbell]

what car? OBD1 ecu?

[saxman]

saxman - you seem to be always talking in relation to turbo apps.

but downunder, there are very few boosted honda's, with NA dominating...

can you confirm if your comments are equally attributable to NA apps. as they are to boosted setups?
honestly, I think uberdata was pretty much developed with turbo applications in mind.

to really extract the power out of an n/a set up, I think a lot more dyno time would be applicable than with a mild tune on a turbo worried a little more with safety and reliability than peak power.

[saxman]

So if I was to use uberdata and tune my car on road, what would the final cost be?
Andy - care to comment?
well, lets put it this way, since I don't know what prices are down there

to tune on the road, I use:

a lap top computer that I'm borrowing from a friend... so I didn't pay for it

a techedge wideband that I purchased as the kit and assembled myself

a moates.net eprom burner

a moates.net uber1 kit for all the hardware

a modified nokia usb-tll convertor cable I got off ebay.com for like $5



I also have an inductive dyno set up that measure engine acceleration through ignition pulses... but I've only used that on a couple cars

[tinkerbell]

to really extract the power out of an n/a set up, I think a lot more dyno time would be applicable than with a mild tune on a turbo worried a little more with safety and reliability than peak power.

yeah, that makes sense, thanks for that... :thumbsup:

[epren]

"I also have an inductive dyno set up that measure engine acceleration through ignition pulses... but I've only used that on a couple cars"

I have not heard or read of this before any links to look at ?
efren

[saxman]

"I also have an inductive dyno set up that measure engine acceleration through ignition pulses... but I've only used that on a couple cars"

I have not heard or read of this before any links to look at ?
efren
this is the first link that I came apon

http://www.microsmith.co.uk/rd/dyno.htm#what

[ProECU]

honestly, I think uberdata was pretty much developed with turbo applications in mind.

to really extract the power out of an n/a set up, I think a lot more dyno time would be applicable than with a mild tune on a turbo worried a little more with safety and reliability than peak power.

I can tell you first hand Blake did develop uberdata with boost in mind.
Blake developed the first public boost code for P72.
Basically hijacks the boost signal and scales it down to prevent the upper voltage limit from being breached.
Not entirely clever, as other routines use this modified map signal with undesired results...

He may have fixed it since then

[ProECU]

Can the "experienced" road tuners detail the process they use to tune a car in the street?
More specific detail the better.

[bennjamin]

lol come on guys keep the crap to the spam forum :D
Next retaliation or stupid remark gets a black strike against ur name ;)



Otherwise , lets keep this discussion going !!!

Ok question - in comparison to say hondata , what exact "level" of tune can uberdata achieve ? (level = amoutn of tuneablitly/range etc etc etc thru a wideband)

[pornstar]

Ben
simple answer to ur question is that it can do the same as the others to the point that the end user doesnt know the difference.

[ProECU]

I disagree.

Hondata is very cleanly coded.
The freewares have things going on in the background that the end user will never know about and "could" ultimately compromise engine longevity.

As I have said numerous times... theres more to it than target a/f.

[bennjamin]

including both your opinons - "...to the point where the end user dosent know the difference..." refers to the tuning levels maskign those below and above ?
OR that higher levels of tune are attainable thru either , but are usually unseen to the hobbyist or entry level tuner ?

Also , i take it hondata (for example) is clean cut and there is NO chance of wrongly tuning or "comprimising engine longevity" ?


Surely, both programs are not entirely 100% fool-proof ?

[tinkerbell]

The freewares have things going on in the background that the end user will never know about and "could" ultimately compromise engine longevity.


such as?

like a computer virus or something? or what? :confused:

[pornstar]

since we havent ever had any problems with it, coud u fill us in on what those things could be proecu?

[pornstar]

i dont need to, uberdata works fine for me, and im happy to help anyone else use it. IE thats what this thread is for, so if u dont wanna help why not stay out. great!

[pornstar]

its not the attitude, its cos in laymen terms the uberdata is just the same as his ecu, and hondata, just not as glorified. speak to those who use it, they dont have problems, they run them daily.

[pornstar]

anyways thast not the point of this thread. lets keep the constructive stuff up

[ProECU]

anyways thast not the point of this thread. lets keep the constructive stuff up



There seems to be a growing trend of people who are intersted in socketing/chipping their ecus to be able to tune freewares. The attraction being that the ecus are free besides the cost of socketing/chipping their stock ecus.


In this vein, can you detail the process for socketing an ECU?

After all, this is what you originally set out to achieve.

[pornstar]

no i cant, cos i dont socket them. But there are people on here that can, this was psoted in the very first thread. thanks for reading

[ProECU]

your welcome.

can you then detail the method by which you road tune?

[tinkerbell]

www.google.com

plenty of info there on "road tuning" if you want to continue your educational journey into something that is way off topic.

you can also search for "ECU socketing" there too,

or check out this article here:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=181

[ekslut]

Alright, stop the spam and keep it on topic. If you want to have a little internet word battle take it to PM. Anymore and I'll lock this thread up.

NOW BACK ON TOPIC WITHOUT ANY ATTACKS AT EACH OTHER

[bennjamin]

I do agree with Dave.

I spoke to both parties involved and was certain some healthy discussion like this would benefit our site.

Im locking this up since it really is going around in viscous circles. :(