Oil changing with Engine Flush?

[raskalsmpl]

Hey Guys

Ive got a b16a2, im looking at doing an oil change!!!!

Ive heard from a Vtec dvd, and other forums that it isnt ideal to do a engine flush......for these enignes!!! what should i do....

and is 10w/30 the best oil to use ? or is this OEM oil

[bennjamin]

please dont do a "engine flush" - the oil filter shoudl catch all crud anyway.

Just change oil + oil filter with some OEM honda FEO oil...

[j3z3z]

dont worry if you cant find 10/30 either
i use 5-40 shell helix shit..... when i changed to that stuff it worked like magic my idle comletely smoothed out

[raskalsmpl]

so it is true not to use engine flush......

this Vtec Doctor on this DVD said never use it cause it ****s with internals

So your saying to just drain it completely..... 1st run the engine for 15 mins then drain the engine completely without engine flush.... then top up it up with new oil???

some people have told me to flush twice???? is this a must?

[raskalsmpl]

Anyone??? please help

[saxman]

get under the car, drain the oil, replace the oil filter, refil it with oil, and go on your way... no reason to make it any more difficult than that

[raskalsmpl]

well im a newbie on the b16a

and ive heard all these things!!!!

I just wanted to confirm it all and if driaining it twice would help... in making the engine alot cleaner

[dundas]

no need to waste your time in flushing etc.. just drain refill.. whats the point of having a oil filter if ur not gonna use it ^_^

[raskalsmpl]

yeah most cars get you to engine flush!!!!!!!

what oil is the best to use????

[VT3C]

please dont do a "engine flush" - the oil filter shoudl catch all crud anyway.

Just change oil + oil filter with some OEM honda FEO oil...

LMFAO.. and you say that with such confidence !!

I flushed mine when did swap and every now n then and my b16 loves me for it.. the cleaner the oil and the intrenals, the better the oil can do its job.

the cleaner your whole engine the better !!

whover said not to flush ever is a fool.. dont care what fkn DVD he was on.. thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard on these forums and that's sayin somethin !!

IMO you should also NEVER use any of that magnetic oil crap.. Think about it.. yes it might stick you your engine parts for cold startup - but once the oil is dirty, you may never get all of the dirty oil OUT of your motor..

for flushing, if you're doing a one-day flush, just use cheapy stuff that's in your standard viscosity range.. if you're doing a week or so flush (reccomended) use a nice-er oil more close to what you want to use.. then once flushed go with a synthetic (or blend) oil and make sure to check oil levels every couple of days as synthetic is very good, but can get burned up a little easier.

if in doubt, stick to HONDA FEO.

[bennjamin]

LMFAO.. and you say that with such confidence !!

I flushed mine when did swap and every now n then and my b16 loves me for it.. the cleaner the oil and the intrenals, the better the oil can do its job.

the cleaner your whole engine the better !!

whover said not to flush ever is a fool.. dont care what fkn DVD he was on.. thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard on these forums and that's sayin somethin !!

oi smarty pants - isnt it better safe than sorry ? BTW I base my opinon on "older" engines where carbon and gunk no doubt is literally holding the engine together... IF it is OK what do you use then ? fresh crappy oil then change to good stuff quickly or some "sea-foam" type stuff ?

[VT3C]

safe would be f;lushing.. and he said he has a B16A not an older engine that's falling apart.. smarty pants.. IMO if you dont know the history of the motor, or it's been a LONG time since someone changed the oil and it's all cruddy black n thick, FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH..

[bennjamin]

FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH..

but with what liquid ?


IF it is OK what do you use then ? fresh crappy oil then change to good stuff quickly or some "sea-foam" type stuff ?

[VT3C]

IMO you should also NEVER use any of that magnetic oil crap.. Think about it.. yes it might stick you your engine parts for cold startup - but once the oil is dirty, you may never get all of the dirty oil OUT of your motor..

for flushing, if you're doing a one-day flush, just use cheapy stuff that's in your standard viscosity range.. if you're doing a week or so flush (reccomended) use a nice-er oil more close to what you want to use.. then once flushed go with a synthetic (or blend) oil and make sure to check oil levels every couple of days as synthetic is very good, but can get burned up a little easier.

if in doubt, stick to HONDA FEO.

shit man, read my post !!! use ENGINE OIL..

what did you think I meant ? water and soap ??

[ATSE]

I don't see the point in flushing. You use any oil with proper detergents then it should take care of the job. Flushing chemicals have known to eat through seals etc. Also if you do a flush, you might be prone to small leaks, due to some buildup acting as a plug.

Go watch Vtec club 1 and see what mr spoon says about engine flushing... but then again what would he know eh?

[bennjamin]

shit man, read my post !!! use ENGINE OIL..

what did you think I meant ? water and soap ??

duh ofcourse :p

there are many engine flush products out there - wonderig if there is any experience....as i said sea foam etc.

[VT3C]

yeah i've heard a lot of good and bad things, aside from a complete tear down, acid-bath and a rebuild, the best thing I'd suggest is to 'flush' the oil.. as in dump the old oil, leave shitty filter, fill up with mid-spec oil, drive for 2 days for a week, dump that oil again, change oil filter (use OEM recommended) then re-fil with nice synthetic oil.. should be great.. if your motor is REALLY dirty flush it twice..

if anyone has any further info on detergents for flushing your motor ? well i'd advise against them on alloy HONDA engines, but if anyone has experience with it, i'd LOVE to hear it.. but dont waste space by saying "yeah I used sea-foam and it's sick mayte !!"

[SINISTR]

yeah i've heard a lot of good and bad things, aside from a complete tear down, acid-bath and a rebuild, the best thing I'd suggest is to 'flush' the oil.. as in dump the old oil, leave shitty filter, fill up with mid-spec oil, drive for 2 days for a week, dump that oil again, change oil filter (use OEM recommended) then re-fil with nice synthetic oil.. should be great.. if your motor is REALLY dirty flush it twice..


the only thing I can think of is that 2 days could be a bit long for a flush oil run.... even a 1hr drive will do the job in my opinion.

thats all i wanted to say :)

[aaronng]

If you flush with engine oil, then all you are doing is getting most of the old oil out and wasting one fill. As long as you are not using engine flush products such as those 0w-20 type fluids.... Flushing with 10w-30 Honda FEO is fine, although it is wasting oil.

But if you are flushing with the old filter on, then why bother?

[EG5[KRT]]

u should actually run the car till hot then turn off car and dump oil asap... that way the oil is still hot and will run faster out of the engine... that engine flush stuff doesnt really do anything that is much noticeable... the instructions on the packet of the engine flush is pretty much saying to get the engine as hot as possible...

if you really wanna clean the car then yes its a good idea to run one dummy oil change then one good oil change... but that is sorta likea waste.

so imo i reckon just change your oil every 5000 kms and use spoon magnetic sump bolt. so that picks up any stray metals in the oil and your filter should pick up the rest.
coz in reality your oil will get dirty once u start driving it due to heat etc...

[aaronng]

If the engine is hot and you drain your oil, then a significant amount is still trapped in the head area of the engine. By letting the engine cool before draining the oil, you are letting the oil drain back down into the sump first.

[EG5[KRT]]

whats stopping the oil draining from the head whilst hot ??

[aaronng]

Time. I'm not sure how long it will take for it to drain. Are you letting it drain for about 10-20 minutes?

[EG5[KRT]]

u can let it drain for how ever long u want ... its just better not coz its more liquified so it will run faster thats all... if its cold is more like a sludge will run slower

[aaronng]

If you are using a full synthetic, then the engine oil's viscosity is almost the same whether it is cold or hot.

[NogZ]

If you are using a full synthetic, then the engine oil's viscosity is almost the same whether it is cold or hot.
Just wanted to clarify things :)

The ratings 10W30 determine the viscosity of the oil when its cold and hot.
First number (10) is viscosity rating when the engine is cold, (30) is when its hot. Higher rating = thicker

Lower viscosity is used on cold so that on start up the oil is thinner and flows easily. Once at operating temp (and thus highre visscosity) the oil will stay on the cylinder walls, etc etc and do its job.

Synthetic oils are only different to Organic/SemiSyn oils in that they have higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Better for performance engines, bit overboard on normal engines.

Nogz

[aaronng]

Just wanted to clarify things :)

The ratings 10W30 determine the viscosity of the oil when its cold and hot.
First number (10) is viscosity rating when the engine is cold, (30) is when its hot. Higher rating = thicker

Lower viscosity is used on cold so that on start up the oil is thinner and flows easily. Once at operating temp (and thus highre visscosity) the oil will stay on the cylinder walls, etc etc and do its job.

Synthetic oils are only different to Organic/SemiSyn oils in that they have higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Better for performance engines, bit overboard on normal engines.

Nogz
Actually, the first and 2nd numbers are not equivalent. Going by your explanation, then oil at higher temperature is thicker than oil at a lower temperature? :confused:

For a 10w-30 oil, the first number is the equivalent viscosity of a standard SAE monograde oil measured at 0 degrees C. So at 0 degrees C, the 10w-30 oil has the same viscosity as an SAE10 oil at that same temperature.

The second number is for 100 degrees C. Same thing applies, the SAE monograde oil is measured at 100 degrees C and thus the 10w-30 oil has the same viscosity as an SAE30 oil.

You can compare cold with cold and hot with hot. You cannot compare hot with cold because they are not in units of viscosity.

So you can compare a 10w-30 and a 5w-40 oil and say that at 0 degrees the 10w-30 oil is more viscous than the 5w-40 oil and at 100 degrees C it is the other way around.

And the w means that 5W is tested at -25C, 10W at -20C, 15W at -15C and 20W at -10C.

[NogZ]

ahhh yep good point on the fact that you cant compare the cold value of an oil to another oil's hot value.

But with regards to the numbers (10, 30) not being units of viscosity, they are saybolts measurements (the amount of elapsed time in seconds x mL of the oil flows through a defined 'hole)

So in that sense you can compare the 10 and 30 because they are real measurements, but at different temps (you cant have 2 viscosity ratings for an oil with the same test variables) . Which then points to the fact that oil on start up is less viscous and then increases in viscosity (thicker) at 100C.

Not what you would expect as normally matter has less viscosity through heat. I read that it is acheived through polymers added to the oil, that are coiled up when colder, then unwinds into long chains through heat.

Yep W defines the viscosity rating in the colder temp (i read -18C for all 5-20 values, but its similar to the temps u brought up anyway)

[aaronng]

The Saybolt Furol Viscosity measurement is actually used for transmission fluid, gear and heavy fuel oils. I don't think they use it for engine oils, as the Saybolt method is under ASTM D 88, which is not in the list of engine oil tests below. :)

There are 4 tests done to classify the engine oils to SAE ratings.
1) Kinematic viscosity, ASTM D 445
2) High-temperature high-shear-rate (HTHS) viscosity, ASTM D 4683
3) Cold cranking simulator viscosity, ASTM D 5293
4) Cold pumpability, ASTM D 4684

The numbers still do not have units. They are just a rating given to oils of a particular viscosity. They are arbitrary numbers.

Here's the table as to how the SAE classifies the oil ratings based on the above 4 tests.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1238/sae2sf.jpg

And from the same source, this is how they determine if the oil gets the W rating:
The table shows that there are two types of SAE viscosity grades: those with a "W," and those without. Those with a "W" have upper limits on low-temperature cranking and pumping viscosities, and a lower limit on kinematic viscosity. Those without the W have upper and lower limits on kinematic viscosity at 100°C and HTHS at 150° C, but have no low-temperature viscosity limits. So, W grades pertain largely to low-temperature performance (think of the W as meaning "winter"), while non-W grades relate only to high-temperature performance.

For the W grades, note that the pumping limits are specified at 5° C below the cranking limits. This is done to ensure that if an oil allows an engine to start, the oil will pump throughout the engine, as well. If this were not the case, severe engine damage could result.

[NogZ]

s the Saybolt method is under ASTM D 88, which is not in the list of engine oil tests below.

ur right :thumbsup: I should've cross-ref :rolleyes:

and of course since the 10W30 are not measurements, yes ur right they're just ratings for classifications.

thanks for the clarification :thumbsup: