B16A bottom end + ??

[n/a]

hey guys, i have a B16A bottom end from a del sol CRX, but no head, what head would be good to put on it besides a B16A head?

[tinkerbell]

what is your purpose for the engine?

[[R]]

why not use the b16a head too?

u using it for domestic use or race use?

[n/a]

the engine will be for street use, but hey i don't mind a little bit of ridiculous power :D

about the B16A head, heard that the cost of it alot, so i was thinking of wacking something else on.

any thoughts tinkerbell?

[[R]]

if you're worried about price, then perhaps if you choose a different option then it may end up costing you more.. coz then you'd have to fabricate everything to suit. at least the b16a head will fit straight on.. this way it'll leave you with just having to make up engine mounts to suit. if you opt for something street use and want extra power than just your regular n/a, how about b16a head and add a turbo kit? there's heaps of them available for it.. very popular in the states.....

[n/a]

hmm.. i understand what you're saying, but either way i need mount in my car to have a Bseries motor, also if i was thinking of turbo'ing i'd just boost my ZC.

are there are known combo's with a B16A bottom?

[z3lda]

b16 bottom end i a pos. no torque what so ever unless u stroke it which will waste money.

only good about the b16 is its head.

if u on a budget just do a LSvtec . b18b bottom end (200-300bux) plus a b16a head. with some mild internals and ur sweet as.

[n/a]

icic, i thought the bottom end would be useless..

thanks guys.

[barefootbonzai]

yep bottom end worth around $50.

[tinkerbell]

B18C head is more expensive than B16A head.

[barefootbonzai]

tinkerbell, are you refering to B18C type R or VTiR or both?

[tinkerbell]

LOLOL!

um, yeah, a Type R head is a lot more expensive than a VTiR head, which is more expensive than a B16A head...

[tinkerbell]

if u on a budget just do a LSvtec . b18b bottom end (200-300bux) plus a b16a head. with some mild internals and ur sweet as.

BTW - i agree with this - if you goto the expense of getting a VTEC head at least mate it to a B18 or a B20B bottom end ;)

[BlitZ]

but the b16a head is the same as ITR head....(minus tiny tiny p&P)

b18c heads are better for high reving engines concentrating over 8k........
and anythign below 8k which is mainly for street, i would reccommend the b16 head

And as mentioned.. the b16a shortblock is a worth as much as someone is willing to pay.. proabbabaly $1 for each NM....$149 ono



LOLOL!

um, yeah, a Type R head is a lot more expensive than a VTiR head, which is more expensive than a B16A head...

[tinkerbell]

um, i didnt know the B16A had the same cams and valvesprings as a ITR head?

or are you just talking about the head casting?

[tinkerbell]

also the ITR has *better* Lost Motion Assemblies (LMA's) too...

[BlitZ]

um, i didnt know the B16A had the same cams and valvesprings as a ITR head?

or are you just talking about the head casting?

oh yeah. missing a few insignificant components:D

[DynoDave]

but the b16a head is the same as ITR head....(minus tiny tiny p&P)
[i think]
b18c heads are better for high reving engines concentrating over 8k........
and anythign below 8k which is mainly for street, i would reccommend the b16 head

And as mentioned.. the b16a shortblock is a worth as much as someone is willing to pay.. proabbabaly $1 for each NM....$149 ono
Yes that is correct ITR head is a PR3 and so is B16A head the other differences are the intakes valves and the valve springs,the valve retainers are the same and the area under the valve seat is hand blended (there way of porting)from the factory.If you wish to sell the bottom end please PM me as I am always looking for B16A bottom ends.
Regards Dyno Dave

[tinkerbell]

dave, i have two - pm me if you wnat them...

[barefootbonzai]

LOLOL!

um, yeah, a Type R head is a lot more expensive than a VTiR head, which is more expensive than a B16A head...

So an B18C Integra VTIR head is worth more than B16A head?

[tinkerbell]

ring around and check for us will you?

it was last time i did...

[EGB16A]

a little off topic, but is the VTIR and ITR block essentially the same thing or different?

[tinkerbell]

yes, essentially, the internals are made differently, but blocks are same...

[barefootbonzai]

ring around and check for us will you?

it was last time i did...

I'm just confused cause of the whole frankinstien concept where the B16 is more prefered over the B18 vtir head. Doesn't the b16 have better flow or something? Or people just use it cause it's cheaper?

[tinkerbell]

I'm just confused cause of the whole frankinstien concept where the B16 is more prefered over the B18 vtir head. Doesn't the b16 have better flow or something? Or people just use it cause it's cheaper?

economics 101? supply and demand?

the B16A does not flow much different to B18C head,

the B18CR head does though, due to slight factory tidy up of the ports....

maybe this is why you are confused...

FYI - the B18C is *better* stock as it give .2 points more compression ratio :thumbsup:

[barefootbonzai]

So stock for stock the B18C VTiR is better. So the poor mans type R doesn't really have any benifits unless you acutal do some more work to your engine. It's just statements like the one below that confuse me.

take from http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21481

"Why not just a B16A or B18C swap?
I’ve owned a B16A EG before, so I was after a more powerful platform and something different with potential. I’m not saying that a standard B18C2 doesn’t have potential but the appeal of a better flowing head on a larger capacity block sold me.
"

[tinkerbell]

that is a pretty spurious comment IMO.

if you are basing your decisions regarding your future engine on one guys comments in an interveiw, i would suggest your do some more research on more technically based sites like:

www.honda-tech.com
www.team-integra.net

[tinkerbell]

hey N/A - i hope this discussion is helping you ;)

[barefootbonzai]

yeah i'm sure it's helping him :thumbsup:

I'm not just basing it on that comment alone. But there has to be something in it for people to even be doin that hybrid setup. I just wanna know Y so many even bother if it's gonna make their car run slower.

[tinkerbell]

I just wanna know Y so many even bother if it's gonna make their car run slower.

so would i...

i think it is the *lure* of the fact that the Type R DOES use the PR3 head, and therefore it MUST be better...

not sure...

but still, for a street based car, money is better spent on modifiying a B18C2 than re-building a "poor mans Type R"

[BlitZ]

im sure there is a reason why honda chose to use the pr3 ehad on their b18c5/7

[tinkerbell]

let us know when you find out what the reason is...

i have faint memories of it being due to manufacturing cost or something... but they are really faint...

[n/a]

ok, you guys are in a separate world to me.

so i guess this B16A bottom end is scrapped! but how about B16A BE + B18B head? yes i mean B 1 8 B, not B16B. or is that combo just plain silly?

doing a B16A conversion isn't worth the money to me. if i was to do a conversion it'll have to be atleast a B18C R. fussy fussy.. i may just boost the b*tch!

[tinkerbell]

yeah, i think it *could* work, but yes it is just plain silly - the ehad does not flow enough to take advantage of the high revving nature of the B16A - wihc is designed for high rpm power and has no low down torque...

[EGB16A]

just to add to this thread, I've researched that a b18c1 block and b16 head will result in a loss of compression, compared to using the standard head from b18c? This info was based on usdm block though if it makes any difference what so ever?

[bradb16a]

the only differance between and b16a an a type r head if it come from the factor with a port and polish +++ high lift springs and the cams take your pick get a b16a head and get a bit of port and polished and your done head will cost you any were from 300 port and polish 400 just do that and if you want more power replase the crankshaft (bottom end with a b18b for $200 then you have got a stocked b16a to 1891CC BOOM

[z3lda]

just to add to this thread, I've researched that a b18c1 block and b16 head will result in a loss of compression, compared to using the standard head from b18c? This info was based on usdm block though if it makes any difference what so ever?

yes stock b16a with stock b18 block mated will result in lost of compression.

if your gonna go through this pass, do some internal work. high comp pistons, cams etc. even ifs its just mild internal work, it will own~

[EGB16A]

yes stock b16a with stock b18 block mated will result in lost of compression.

if your gonna go through this pass, do some internal work. high comp pistons, cams etc. even ifs its just mild internal work, it will own~

loss in compresion should be about .2 or .3 so its not a hell of alot

[z3lda]

enough to make it slow.

[mini_s2000]

enough to make it slow.
lol... just find a b16 head, way less headaches

[bradb16a]

if you must use a b18 block all you have to do is deck the head by 0.25 the comp will not be an issuethen . i would use a b16a bottom end and user a b18b crankshaft

[EGB16A]

if you must use a b18 block all you have to do is deck the head by 0.25 the comp will not be an issuethen . i would use a b16a bottom end and user a b18b crankshaft

i thought a b16a has a better rod to stroke ratio, which would make b18b crank swap kind useless

[sifoo]

why would you go from a nice flowing head to a something of lesser performance (b18b)?

budget build: you could get a PR3 Integra Type R Head milled for a lil more compression on a stock b16a bottom end. You can still rev reliably with the b16 near perfect r/s ratio.

if you have more money and you want nice hp gains with more torque then go b18b bottom-end with ctr pistons and a b16a head. Most of your money would be used for preppin the engine for the vtec conversion and balancing of rotating parts.

You could always just go all out with a 2.0 litre 85mm build with the b18b! lol

[tinkerbell]

EGB16A - you cant use a B18B crank in a B16A anyway.

the block is 7mm shorter and would end up with the pistons out of the hole and halfway into the head.

bradb16a has no idea...

sifoo has the right idea, a B18B block with CTR pistons with PR3 ITR head makes more power than B18C7 engine...

[fly_vti]

get a b16b head

[Limbo]

a b16b head is the same as a b18cR head. The CTR is just a destroked ITR.
Also the CTR would be more expensive as the engines are rarer.

Get a b16A head it will be cheaper. All the frankenstien setups are on b16a head due to cheapness and that they are better heads that your B18 (VTIR) heads.
That is why the type R uses a touched up b16a head.
If the B18 head off a VTIR was better wouldn't they have used that in the ITR????

[barefootbonzai]

a b16b head is the same as a b18cR head. The CTR is just a destroked ITR.
Also the CTR would be more expensive as the engines are rarer.

Get a b16A head it will be cheaper. All the frankenstien setups are on b16a head due to cheapness and that they are better heads that your B18 (VTIR) heads.
That is why the type R uses a touched up b16a head.
If the B18 head off a VTIR was better wouldn't they have used that in the ITR????

This is wrong according to Tinkerbell

[tinkerbell]

no, not all of it is wrong!!!

the only thing that is 'wrong' is the assumption that the type R uses the PR3 head (B16A) because it is *better* than the P72 head(B18C2)

there are many other reasons why, one being cost, and other being time, as to why they used a PR3 head over the P72 head...

[Limbo]

O well that part is an assumption on my part ar you would think that building a car that had mandrel bent exhaust factory, which are stainless steel, port and polished heads, and hand assembled blocks are usually not doing it cheap.

Thus it would be my assumption that the B16 head is better than the b18 head, otherwise they could easily use the b18 head right?

I think the b16 head probably is more revvy, see the spoon b16b, now that's a car i would love to get my hands on!

[BlitZ]

sifoo has the right idea, a B18B block with CTR pistons with PR3 ITR head makes more power than B18C7 engine...

I am just after nmore info..

why would it be better?

[tinkerbell]

B18B with CTR pistons and PR3 head vs Integra Type R engine

higher capacity (1834cc vs 1797cc),

more torque (due to longer stroke 89mm vs 87.2mm),

higher compression ratio (11.97:1 vs 11.1:1)

[EG6_SiR]

Has anyone actually done the conversion of putting a b18b bottom end on a b16a head?????? And how much torque and power increase resulted from this. I would love to know, because I was thinking of doing it to my eg6... i thought adding the b18b bottom end, would increase torque, which in theory would help on track, so in the turns i could come out faster...????? So is this conversion worthwhile doing? thanks guys :wave:

[BlitZ]

Has anyone actually done the conversion of putting a b18b bottom end on a b16a head?????? And how much torque and power increase resulted from this. I would love to know, because I was thinking of doing it to my eg6... i thought adding the b18b bottom end, would increase torque, which in theory would help on track, so in the turns i could come out faster...????? So is this conversion worthwhile doing? thanks guys :wave:

charlie at GPC are known to do thsi conversion all the time..
My friend has this engine in his car...

he recently changed it to a b18c head running toda c's... response and power is great

[BlitZ]

B18B with CTR pistons and PR3 head vs Integra Type R engine

higher capacity (1834cc vs 1797cc),

more torque (due to longer stroke 89mm vs 87.2mm),

higher compression ratio (11.97:1 vs 11.1:1)

what crank would provide the longer stroke? b18b?

and what are the -'ves? i read somewhere about the water jackets are different.. and you also have to plum a oil line... is this correct?

[tinkerbell]

B18B = 89mm stoke... = more torque...

you need to run an oil line, yes.

EG6 SiR - no, i have not done it, i have only built hybrids with B20B bottom end and B16A head.

but these would probably be illegal in an EG6 due to engine capacity increase...

[EGB16A]

B18B = 89mm stoke... = more torque...

you need to run an oil line, yes.

EG6 SiR - no, i have not done it, i have only built hybrids with B20B bottom end and B16A head.

but these would probably be illegal in an EG6 due to engine capacity increase...

anyone know how much you can legaly increase engine capacity by? If the displacment of the engine goes past the legal limit, can it be engineered with better brakes etc?

[DomenEK]

EG6 SiR - no, i have not done it, i have only built hybrids with B20B bottom end and B16A head.
How do these go? I've heard the B20B bottoom ends aren't as tough as B18 bottom ends....


I'm still trying to work my head around all these hybrid options.

[tinkerbell]

EGB16A - it is 15% in NSW

DomenEK - i have not broken a B20B bottom ned, and IMO you only would break it if you reved over 8.6K or boosted it and u r detonating it...

[Zdster]

Wow, some really cool info. in this thread.

I just wanted to ask one question about reliability. With these hybrid engines are they as reliable as a stock block? Considering you are mating to pieces that come from different motors how do they hold up both long and short term? I have seen a number of mini-me swaps and was just curious compared to stock motors.

Oh yeah - plus PQ points :thumbsup:.

[tinkerbell]

Wow, some really cool info. in this thread.

I just wanted to ask one question about reliability. With these hybrid engines are they as reliable as a stock block?

only if you build it to specs with new seals/gaskets/o-rings...

then the engine will be as reliable as the person building it....




Considering you are mating to pieces that come from different motors how do they hold up both long and short term?

it is amazing how easy it is to hybrid Honda engines, it is truly as if Honda meant for the B20B to get a VTEC head... they are "B series" engines, so they are exactly the same to a large extent...

[DomenEK]

I'm starting to warm to this idea of a B20B bottom end, and a B16a head.....Obviously the B20b would give it more torque through the midrange, and the B16a head allows it to scream like a true vtec monster?

How do these hybrids compare to the b18c/B16a ones?

[barefootbonzai]

Very hard to answer a question like this. What exactly is it that you wanna know? The obvious would be the b20 one would have more torque.


Are you seriously gonna do it or just asking about it for now?

[DomenEK]

Asking about it for now. When I get a bit more financial, I'll be looking more seriously, but for now I'm just gathering ideas....

[dsp26]

man been searching on this topic for yonkers now so i thought i'd add some questions to this thread:

B16a Head + B18b Block
Displacement:
CR:
Avg Price of Block:

B16a Head + B18c Block
Displacement:
CR:
Avg Price of Block:

Rego/Engineering - If the displacement increase is less than 15% can it simply be blue slipped and engine numebrs changed with RTA?

What is the rule of thumb for B series CR. how many CR is 1mm off the head/hg worth?

Where can those CTR pistons be sourced?

[Perry]

man been searching on this topic for yonkers now so i thought i'd add some questions to this thread:

B16a Head + B18b Block
Displacement:
CR:
Avg Price of Block:

B16a Head + B18c Block
Displacement:
CR:
Avg Price of Block:

Rego/Engineering - If the displacement increase is less than 15% can it simply be blue slipped and engine numebrs changed with RTA?

What is the rule of thumb for B series CR. how many CR is 1mm off the head/hg worth?

Where can those CTR pistons be sourced?

you can source CTR pistons from trader HondaR

[dsp26]

^^hey mate, just checked.. no trader by that name

[tinkerbell]

man been searching on this topic for yonkers now so i thought i'd add some questions to this thread:

B16a Head + B18b Block
Displacement: 1834cc
CR: ~ 11.3:1
Avg Price of Block: $300-500

B16a Head + B18c Block
Displacement: 1797cc
CR: 11.1:1
Avg Price of Block: $500-$1000

Rego/Engineering - If the displacement increase is less than 15% can it simply be blue slipped and engine numebrs changed with RTA?

yes.

What is the rule of thumb for B series CR. how many CR is 1mm off the head/hg worth?

10 thou = 0.2 (verrrry approximate!)

Where can those CTR pistons be sourced?

anywhere you get performance honda parts.

B16a Head + B18b Block
Displacement: 1834cc
CR: ~ 9.5:1
Avg Price of Block: $300-500 + $250 (oil line etc)

B16a Head + B18b Block + B16B pistons
Displacement: 1834cc
CR: ~ 11.9:1
Avg Price of Block: $300-500 + $500 (pistons) + $250 (oil line etc)

B16a Head + B18c Block
Displacement: 1797cc
CR: 11.1:1
Avg Price of Block: $500-$1000


B18c Head + B18b Block + B16a pistons
Displacement:1834cc
CR: 11.5:1
Avg Price of Block: $300-500 + $250 (pistons) + $250 (oil line etc)


how much do ITR long blocks go for these days? $2500?

[tinkerbell]

calculations done via : http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

[tinkerbell]

^^hey mate, just checked.. no trader by that name

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/search.php

"ctr" + "pistons"

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38030&highlight=ctr+pistons

[dsp26]

^^^thanks for all that +rep for the straight answer!!! lol whats with the message you get thoguh hahahaha!!!

now i have experience opening engines but have never opened a Honda... would like to attempt it myself... 1 last question then... where do i tap for the oil line?

don't wanna get flamed though... been searching this and all motor thread for yonks for various info.. if i'm searching for the wrong things give me a hint.... i know how forums are with noobs.

***EDIT***
also just checked EG5's page.. good prices.

IF the b18b block required honing what would be the expected displacement for the B16b 0.25 oversized pistons if non oversized is already 1834cc?? will obviously put me over the 15% threshhold though...

[dsp26]

^^^never mind... thanks for the calc... will have a play with it. thanks!!!


***EDIT***
B16a Head + B18b Block + B16B pistons oversized (assuming 0.25 = mm)
Displacement: 1846cc
CR: ~ 12:1
Avg Price of Block: $300-500 + $500 (pistons) + $250 (oil line etc)

[tinkerbell]

hey mate,

try www.google.com

"ls/vtec"

but here is a start for you:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/lsvtec/lsvtec.php

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/b20vtec/b20vtec.php