JDM B16A >> AFR Tuning ?

[VT3C]

OK ECU Tuning people - am not happy with my AFR Curve nor the patchyness of my torque curve. Note my ECU wasnt reset properly at the time of dyno run.

Mods Intake, cat back..

SOS !!

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/bede_dyno.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

[typsy]

Yeh get it tuned dude.. the curve will be much smoother. But bring it to someone who knows what their doing.

[SINISTR]

Bede - Id recommend investing in a VAFC2 and getting it tuned like Rods car :) you KNOW how good his car was after the VAFC and he had thesame mods as you!

:) Do it!

[VT3C]

Bede - Id recommend investing in a VAFC2 and getting it tuned like Rods car :) you KNOW how good his car was after the VAFC and he had thesame mods as you!

:) Do it!

yeah mike am looking into a couple of options but still not sure if I want to go with a band-aid solution or a complete package.. ie. ECU.

firstly I want to hear what the pros have to say as to what is happening in my graph and why.. I have my theories, but like i said, want to hear what others have to say apart from 'get it tuned' ;)

for example could my not-quite-fixed ELD issues be causing this ? why has the irratic idle come back but no eror codes ?? etc.

also I have the JDM cat from the donor car and it has a secondary 02 sensor in it.. but no codes.. but this cat is not installed nor is there any provision to wire this o2 sensor.

[ECU-MAN]

sorry dude, but im going to say, retune it. its in the mapping.

I have seen this several times, you have to tune it out. common to honda's

your ecu doesnt have to have an error code if its hunting at idle. there are so many reasons for it as well, from bad O2 sensor, EACV, vacuum leak, FICV ect

[ProECU]

OMG.

where to start?

BLUE LINE
The graph is suggesting you are running rich all the way to vtec. I would assume from this that the idle a/f is rich as well, causing your idle to fluctuate.
The ECU is reading rich voltage from the O2, and compensating. It's common.
Strange thing is that when vtec kicks, it leans out! This is not the way honda tuned these motors, so straight away I am wondering what tha? What ECU are you using?
Any piggybacks?

RED LINE:
This is 1 a/f point leaner all the way to vtec.
How can 1 run be soo different? What was done between runs? Again, what is going on with the ECU you're using?
Again, vtec is leaning out to levels which are leaning towards "un-safe" you will notice the red line makes less power at vtec x-over due to the bad a/f.
A/F at top end is still too rich.

There is no way about it, you need to get that thing tuned Bede!
I remember we spoke about my tune for the JDM B16. You need to try something, perhaps that is the answer.

[ProECU]

the difference between runs is also making me think you have a hardware issue.
perhaps a vac leak.

But i'd need to know what happened/changed between runs on those graphs

[SINISTR]

The RED line is the 1st Run, BLUE is the second run made consecutively within about 2-5mins.

[VT3C]

But i'd need to know what happened/changed between runs on those graphs

yeah we need to take this further - in the new year will hopefully have some extra $$.

Difference between the 2 runs ? what was done ? absolutely nothing was changed just standard shoot-out style do one run, then do the 2nd.

ECU is stock JDM P30.. came from the JDM Del-Sol donor car with the rest of my motor..

I cant understand how there is the difference between the 2 runs - if you look at the start of the red AFR curve it STARTS a full point leaner from idle :(

Is it possible the dyno operator dis not hold the Throttle at WOT thus not running in open loop ?

once again, the donor car's JDM cat had an 02 sensor in it.. but it is not installed/connected but there is no facility to connect, and wouldn't htere be a code if an 02 sensor was missing ? hrm..

car is running VERY rich - backfires like a slut on off-throttle..

I am worried tha nan ECU-tune may not fix the problem.. i mean if it's caused by a faulty sensor or a vac-leak it will still have the issues after a tune.

now you've explained it a bit to me I am looking at my printout and getting more worried HAHAHA I cant understand why running so lean unless my TRi intake is just letting in SOOO much extra air at VTEC ;)

i'll go check my IM and TB for any leaks this arvo.. sigh.

dangit !!

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP GUYS MUCH APPRECIATED AS ALWAYS !!

[ProECU]

do you have a torque graph you can post up?

[VT3C]

no tourque graph unfortunately.. i'll contact X-speed and ask if that data is available.

I just checked intake.. re-sealed intake tube silicon hoses.. looked past throttle body and was oily past the butterfly - smelt like fuel - but I cleaned the whole manifold just over 12 months ago..wasnt grotty, but was black-ish.. perhaps some vac blow-back ? all other vac hoses seem to be connected and fine.

i have a small filter on the valve-cover breather rather than having it re-route to the intake tube.. could this effect some vaccum ?

[VT3C]

also just thinking my Fuel filter is the ORIGINAL item now with almost 210,000Kms on it.. could this be effecting fuel delivery at high RPMS ?

[tinkerbell]

using the original fuel pump too i assume?

[VT3C]

hrm yes it's the original fuel pump..

I cant feel any hesitation etc akin to fuel starvation though..

[tinkerbell]

um, hesitation due to fuel starvation occurs when you run out of fuel (eg on high G corners on a race track with low tank)

but fuel filter could definitly be clogged/restricted, and reducing flow, but a genral tune up could not hurt...

eg fuel filter, dizzy cap, rotor button, check your leads, spark plugs etc etc...

and reset the ECU ;)

[ProECU]

Its not fuel starvation/restriction, the a/f goes RICH at top end of rpm range.

Change the fuel filter, its long overdue, but dont expect it to solve the problem

[Civic Type R]

Can I hihack this thread and ask for the same input on my A/F ratios ?

http://www.dohc-vtec.com.au/album/data/media/5/dyno-day.jpg

[ProECU]

same **** with yours. vtec x-over what tha?

Are you guys changing vtec engagement points?

[Civic Type R]

Im using a stock Australian Civic VTir ecu with this JDM B18cR engine

[VT3C]

Can I hihack this thread and ask for the same input on my A/F ratios ?


nope.. HAHAH well I dont mind but YOUR motor prob needs it's own thread.. dont want to get confused here.. mine is essentially a STOCK motor where yours well sure the heck aint stock !!

Leads and plugs are fine.. fuel filter will be replaced shortly.. but yeah i dont expect it to fix the problem.. Tink, I cant re-set the ECU properly casue it starts doing it's stoopid idle crap at about 1 min 30 secs every time.. then when driving it drops almost off the map and sometimes even stalls it revs so low.

am not changing VTEC point on mine - JDM P30 VTEC is at about 5800RPM.

[VT3C]

Its not fuel starvation/restriction, the a/f goes RICH at top end of rpm range.

erm are you sure - I thought that was rev-cut as it's just a spike.??

either way why the hell is it producing the 2 AFR curves with a full point away from each other but essentially the same line ?

also what are the 'safe' range of lean/rich ? 11.0 to 14.0 ?? Ideally should it remain at the same (ideal) AFR for the whole curve or at least change gradually ?

[SINISTR]

It seems to be getting better 'HP' when a whole point richer too.

Mine does thesame thing Bede.

Starts off in the 14s and riches up to 11st at 7200rpm & 180km/h.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/d/122696-2/3.jpg

[VT3C]

Air Fuel Ratios 101 (please correct me if i'm wrong)

well if out intakes are doing their jobs the engine should be able to suck in a lot more air (than stock) at higher RPM so theoretically more fuel would be needed.. If the ECU doesnt realise there's more air, or is not able to meet the supply and demand needs in relation to fuel - it will run lean and hence down on power. It should be noted that LEan cyllinder conditions can be made to make MORE power however this is sacrificing the heqalth of your cyllinder and pistons as more air will make it burn hotter within the combustion chamber. too much fuel and not enough air, the fuel needs air to burn and if it starves for air it will simply not burn and will not create the compression needed to return the stroke of the piston.. thus less power. That's why it should be at an optimum level throughout the rev range taking into consideration velocity of both the fuel, air and the piston's position relative to the combustion point.

again, what ideal fuel ratios should my B16A be running throughout the rev range as a ball-park point of reference ? 12.5:1 ?? I Dont know..

[SINISTR]

kewl... but did you Notice HOW MUCH all of the 'modified' cars were hurting the black smoke when at the top of their range? MAJOR overfueling... Yours, Adams, Simons and mine as well - Black Smoke filling the room everytime.

I heard Hanson saying to someone that between 13 & 14 is perfect for the car... so technically ALL of our cars need some tuning :)

[KB]

Can I hihack this thread and ask for the same input on my A/F ratios ?

Could of just as easialy started your own thread, but had to make sure everyone knows your car makes more power than Bedes right? :rolleyes:

Anyway...

Bede I thought that the golden ratio for Fuel/Air was 14.7:1

[shmivic]

kewl... but did you Notice HOW MUCH all of the 'modified' cars were hurting the black smoke when at the top of their range? MAJOR overfueling... Yours, Adams, Simons and mine as well - Black Smoke filling the room everytime.

I heard Hanson saying to someone that between 13 & 14 is perfect for the car... so technically ALL of our cars need some tuning :)

mine blew a little smoke not filled the room hahaha

at one point standing behind another car i remeber feeling chunks of crud hitting me lmfao!

[Civic Type R]

Could of just as easialy started your own thread, but had to make sure everyone knows your car makes more power than Bedes right? :rolleyes:


Kyle thats just a stupid immature thing to say :thumbdwn:
This thread is about A/F ratios not HP. So lets try to keep it on topic ok

[tinkerbell]

Bede I thought that the golden ratio for Fuel/Air was 14.7:1

no, that is the 'stoich' ratio, which is *best* for complete combustion of the A/F mixture for emmissions...

NA cars make good power around 12.5-13:1 AFR,

this is my graph, which is a "little rich" for maximum power:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~joannepulis/sparefiles/TodaRacingB20VTECdyno.jpg

(red line is immediatly after many dyno runs, blue line is after 20 minutes to let the engine cool down)

this was after a VAFC tune...

[tinkerbell]

Tink, I cant re-set the ECU properly casue it starts doing it's stoopid idle crap at about 1 min 30 secs every time..

you have a problem that needs to be rectified.

vacuum leak, incorrectly calibrated TPS, or something sensor related?

what codes is it showing?

[SINISTR]

Tinkerbell - that is a NICE Graph! Very Nicely Tuned!

Simon - sorry Bro... already had a headache after 5 cars on the dyno LOL.. apologies!

[ProECU]

I cant re-set the ECU properly casue it starts doing it's stoopid idle crap at about 1 min 30 secs every time.. then when driving it drops almost off the map and sometimes even stalls it revs so low.


Check the voltage of the TPS at closed and Wide open Throttle and revert back.

[VT3C]

you have a problem that needs to be rectified.

vacuum leak, incorrectly calibrated TPS, or something sensor related?

what codes is it showing?

cant think of any vac leak - have replaced all the gaskets etc..

ONLY code I ever get now is 23 - Knock sensor.

TPS should be fine though will get a volt-meter onto it on the weekend - what voltage should it be reading ?

[Civic Type R]

The thing is, and ive noticed it on all our dynos is that there is a high degree of similarity between all our engines A/F ratios. That is there is a spike around VTEC and then taper off. As for your second run Bede, yeah it may be possible for a leak or a sensor may have picked up something to change your second run but the big question is how? How could a leak suddenly appear when the car physically hasnt done anything and is strapped down in the dyno room.

When i did my conversion, i got a set of new sensors installed. Remember when I had so many VTEC and power issues in the early days ~ that was why. Sensors are so easily damaged with transplants !

[ProECU]

Honda would NOT tune target a/f to 14-1 after vtec x-over. PERIOD!

[VT3C]

Honda would NOT tune target a/f to 14-1 after vtec x-over. PERIOD!

I agree !! so WHY the hell is it doing this ? :confused: the fuel curve's shape is one thing but man why the hel lare there the 2 AFR curves (similar in shape) but 1 point apart (LEaner) on the red one ?????? the red power curve at no point makes more power than the blue so obviouslt lean = no good here.

all my sensor's are fine thanks for your concern adam ;) TPS may need to be re-set and will check voltage, but I've actiually replaced the TPS and the MAP sensor.. serviced IACV, replaced all gaskets in the intake manifold to TB..

Adam can u please post your observations in another thread cause this one is a discussion relative to MY motor and tuning. That's why I started my own thread.. I think just go start your own before this goes downhill PLEASE ?!?!?!

[ProECU]

Perhaps a a/f calibration error.

I also wonder if the ECU doing something wierd due to the missing knock sensor + CEL

[Civic Type R]

Bede, if you read my post you would see that i WAS referring to YOUR car.

[VT3C]

Perhaps a a/f calibration error.

I also wonder if the ECU doing something wierd due to the missing knock sensor + CEL

I wired in the 1k resistor for the Knock sensor as you recommended which makes the CEL go away, but it comes back and goes.. doesnt seem to effect running of the engine if anything it runs better when the CEL (code23) is ON.

As far as I could tell the CEL was off when the dyno test was done.

have re-set my ecu again - irratic idle still hindered it.. idle has gone a little after a few days driving but still comes back randomly.. but not quite as harsh (200RPM to 1500RPM vs 500RPM to 1000RPM)

perhaps if I reset my ecu when engine is cold it may not launch into the irratic idle - but will the ecu reset when started from cold ? all i've read says should be reset with engine at operating temp.

[VT3C]

interesting point.. we swapped my JDM P30 into KB's EJ8 with his OBD2>OBD1 convertor harness and that exact same irratic idle was present... hrm.. maybe it's that mysterious final wire on the ELD..

[ProECU]

is your ecu chipped & do you have an eprom writer?

[VT3C]

My ECU is bone-stock.. no chip or saddle :(

am trying to get my hands on a P28 or another P30 so I can send u my ECU for some work..

[ProECU]

I have one here with your name on it, ready and waiting.

PM me when you're ready

[VT3C]

actually I used to run a chipped P28 with M D16Y1.. but it was on loan from a mate.. I'll ask (beg) him to see if I can re-borrow that ECU.. then just need a chip right ?

pm sending hahaha..

[KB]

pm too!!!

[shmivic]

hey was thinkin!!!!

ur cat is gutted right?
well isnt the main purpose of the cat to remove extra fuel from the exh, and the sensor they put in the tip is half of how they read ur a/f ratio.... so with no cat guts that sensor will read incorrectly yes?

anyway ill bring my a/f meter over on friday

[KB]

cat isn't gutted, i bought him a 2.5" r34 one for his bday ;)

[tinkerbell]

hey was thinkin!!!!

ur cat is gutted right?
well isnt the main purpose of the cat to remove extra fuel from the exh,


no, it is not. :thumbdwn:

[shmivic]

mind explaining it then tinkerballs

[tinkerbell]

mind explaining it then tinkerballs

no, why dont you have a search on the internet or something?

here is a starter for you:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question66.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm

[shmivic]

[quote:howstuffworks]
To help reduce the emissions further, they have developed an interesting device called a catalytic converter, which treats the exhaust before it leaves the car and removes a lot of the pollution [quote:howstuffworks]

ie: collecting unburnt fuel

tinkerbell :thumbdwn:

[revNhevN]

[quote:howstuffworks]
To help reduce the emissions further, they have developed an interesting device called a catalytic converter, which treats the exhaust before it leaves the car and removes a lot of the pollution [quote:howstuffworks]

ie: collecting unburnt fuel

tinkerbell :thumbdwn:

no. where does it store the fuel?. it converts harmfull/damaging pollutants in the exhaust gasses into less harmful gasses. ie. cleaner emisions for the enviroment.

[shmivic]

it doesnt store fuel

all the pollutants are bi products of the cumbustion system and the only chemicals are the petrol amd oxygen
when they mix and combust they create carbon monoxside

so if a cat is gutted the carbon monoxside will not be collected

i swear most of you are slow

[KB]

mummy mummy! simon is home

[shmivic]

soup is hot sip it slowly

yes a "naked" cat will cause a spike in the fuel reading on the dyno.... for proof goto hybridtech/catalyst.com

[Civic Type R]

Simon, can you tune that spike out if you have a gutted cat ?

[tinkerbell]

it doesnt store fuel

all the pollutants are bi products of the cumbustion system and the only chemicals are the petrol amd oxygen
when they mix and combust they create carbon monoxside

so if a cat is gutted the carbon monoxside will not be collected

i swear most of you are slow

the cat "collects" carbon monoxide? what happens if it gets full? LOL!

you would be correct by stating that the cat converts the pollutants, such as nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide, via a catalyst that changes the 'bad' emmissions into 'less bad' emmissions...

but this is clearly not the same as "collecting unburnt fuel"

[shmivic]

not sure hey maybe tho

[shmivic]

by collecting i mean any small particles become gathered in the asbestos stuff and eventually evaporate

[tinkerbell]

evaporate? so they turn into a liquid then do they?

asbestos? man, that is sooo wrong!

THE POINT is that the bad pollutants are converted into less harmfull compounds.

look, have a read of this, then maybe keep discussing?
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter2.htm

[SINISTR]

hmmm.. doesn't a CAT do what you guys are saying - reduced the harmful engine gases that are made to get into the air right? if it reduces gases then it has to 'collect' them on the small pores, walls that are inside the CAT right? after eg: 13yrs of use the pores are blocking up, effecting the efficiency both of the CATS operation in reducing the amount of harmfull gas thats being stopped but also the efficiency of the motors operation due to blockage that occurs along the way.

So in a way you're BOTH correct... you just can't communicate it LOL

[tinkerbell]

hmmm.. doesn't a CAT do what you guys are saying - reduced the harmful engine gases that are made to get into the air right? if it reduces gases then it has to 'collect' them on the small pores, walls that are inside the CAT right?

NO NO NO NO!

the catalytic converter has s honeycomb structure inside it,

this honeycomb has two very precious metals coated over it, being palladium and platinum.

these two precious metals CONVERT the harmful gases into less harmful gases as teh exhaust passes through the catalytst.

it does not STORE them or COLLECT them anywhere :!:

it CONVERTS them...

sheeeesh!!!!!!!!

[tinkerbell]

Description: Closely resembling a muffler in appearance, the catalytic converter is located in the exhaust system and has an outer shell made of stainless steel. The similarity with a muffler ends there as catalytic converters contain a catalyst made from a noble metal such as platinum, palladium or rhodium. A catalyst is defined as anything that induces or accelerates a change. At least one catalytic converter has been used on cars since 1975; today, cars may have two or more depending on the engine configuration and manufacturer.


Purpose: Using its internal catalyst, a catalytic converter's job is to greatly reduce the level of harmful emissions in a car's exhaust. Namely, these are carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen. All of these emissions are serious health and environmental hazards, plus they contribute to the formation of photochemical smog. A catalytic converter changes these poisonous gases to harmless carbon dioxide, nitrogen, oxygen, and water. In a simplistic way, the catalytic converter can almost be thought of as an engine of its own. The converter uses fuel and oxygen to "light off" its internal catalyst, which consumes a large portion of the gases flowing through the converter. Although a converter greatly reduces emissions, it does not eliminate them altogether.

http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Exhaust/catalytic_converter.***ml


Most cars today are equipped with a three-way catalytic converter. The term Three-way refers to the three emissions it helps to reduce, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and NOx molecules. The converter uses two different types of catalysts, a reduction catalyst and an oxidization catalyst. Both types consist of a base structure coated with a catalyst such as platinum, rhodium and/or palladium. The scheme is to create a structure that exposes the maximum surface area of the catalyst to the exhaust flow, while also minimizing the amount of catalyst required.

The inside of the catalytic converter is a honeycomb set of passageways or small ceramic beads coated with catalysts. A chemical reaction takes place to make the pollutants less harmful. There are many passages for the exhaust gases to flow, to allow for the maximum amount of surface area for the hot gases to pass.

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a.htm


A device fitted to the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in order to reduce toxic emissions from the engine. It converts the harmful exhaust products that cause air pollution to relatively harmless ones.

It does this by passing them over a mixture of catalysts coated on a metal or ceramic honeycomb (a structure that increases the surface area and therefore the amount of active catalyst with which the exhaust gases will come into contact). Oxidation catalysts (small amounts of precious palladium and platinum metals) convert hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) and carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide and water, but do not affect nitrogen oxide emissions. Three-way catalysts (platinum and rhodium metals) also convert nitrogen oxide gases into nitrogen and oxygen.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0027062.html

[wynode]

I think you guys need to read a bit more :p

Like tinkerbell said......a cat is a catalyst. Just because it has a honeycomb like structure......people think it acts as a filter (like your fuel/air filter). This is not the case. A properly working cat does not 'collect' things.

[SINISTR]

agreed - understood...

Why does it get replaced then, not for the word its 'USED' but its 'BLOCKED'? do u know what i mean? Its been said many times that the CAT is blocked so its not letting good flow through.

Im just asking, as Im not an expert...

[tinkerbell]

verrry good question,

it (the catalyst) is ONLY is able to convert the 3 things (carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbons)

other chemical type stuff, like burn oil or burnt coolant, are not converted and can actually block or damage the catalyst...

another thing that ruins cat converters is too much fuel, it will clog up the honeycomb and also make it too cool to operate effectively...

[SINISTR]

:) thanks!

[revNhevN]

I think you guys need to read a bit more :p

Like tinkerbell said......a cat is a catalyst. Just because it has a honeycomb like structure......people think it acts as a filter (like your fuel/air filter). This is not the case. A properly working cat does not 'collect' things.

Yes - a cataylst is anything that speeds up a chemical reaction.

[VT3C]

'sake !@!$%&!! where's BENJAMIN when u need him ? this is pathetic guys and Tink not sure what you been blattin' but a cat convertor is made from a platinum-based/coated ceramic core. It's purpose is to remove particles from the exhaust gas so that the gasses are as 'clean' as possibble when they exit the exhaust.

The way it works is by the core heating up to a VERY hot temperature so that it will burn any un-burnt fuel and oil particles as they thravel through the cat.

it doesnt 'filter' anything or change anything - though gasses that pass through the extremely hot 'honeycomb' may have their atomic structure 'altered' as a reaction from the extreme temp of the cat.. but essentially the heat 'burns' any harmfull particle-based gasses etc.

now only the wide-band o2 sensor from the dyno operator will pick this up if u have a gutted cat as there is no 02 sensor after the cat that is connected to your stock ECU - except my JDM DelSol Cat ahs a secondary 02 sensor located in the cat but AFTER the honeycomb.

now jeebus mods.. keep an eye on other people's posts other than MINE !!

[SINISTR]

Bede - as I recall you said your second o2 sensor wasn't connected? the one after the CAT... would it be possibly the reason why your AF mixture is running the way it is?

- getting back the the 'initial' Question here..

[tinkerbell]

The way it works is by the core heating up to a VERY hot temperature so that it will burn any un-burnt fuel and oil particles as they thravel through the cat.

it doesnt 'filter' anything or change anything - though gasses that pass through the extremely hot 'honeycomb' may have their atomic structure 'altered' as a reaction from the extreme temp of the cat.. but essentially the heat 'burns' any harmfull particle-based gasses etc.


no, this is definitly not how it works, but you are free to keep believing that... :thumbsup:

sorry to interupt your thread... :(

[VT3C]

no, this is definitly not how it works, but you are free to keep believing that... :thumbsup:

sorry to interupt your thread... :(

LMFAO If you want to continue the discussion on Cat-convertors, start another thread :)


Bede - as I recall you said your second o2 sensor wasn't connected? the one after the CAT... would it be possibly the reason why your AF mixture is running the way it is?

yeah mike but there is no facility to wire up that sensor..ie. no missing ECU pinout.. no spare plugs.. not throwing any codes relative to this etc.. If I knew where to wire it up, I would.. would be interesting to get under Vic's CRX and see if there's any plugs spare and follow them to see where it goes...