eliminating understeer

[kousoku]

Alright I need some help from a track/sussy fiend.

Okay as I understand it to eliminate understeer in a Honda the best thing to do is

Have less resistance from your shocks at the front compared to the rear

Have a stiff supported rear end as compared to the front

Have tire pressure higher at the front then the rear.


Alright after understanding this I wonder about a few things.

In all aftermarket suspension set up the spring rates at the front of the car are stiffer then at the rear, this seems to the contrary to what I have read about eliminating understeer and creating a more balanced drive. Would this stem from the heavy loads at the front of the car caused by the engines placement resulting in effecting spring rates being softer at the front then the back?


Secondly, what is the importance of dampening rates compared to spring rates? The way I see it is that spring rates are crucial for the initial set up of the car in its stationary stance, and once set up it has little impact to under/over steering tendencys. Where as, dampening rates come into greater importance once cornering? Would I be correct in thinking this? That once on the track the best way to control the amount of under/over steer would be to adjust the dampening settings?

[Domokun SPL]

To reduce understeer you can do the following

- Better tyres
- 1 degree negative camber on the front
- Get some adjustable caster bushes and wind on more caster
- Bigger swaybars all around, but have the fronts a bit softer then the rears
- Have the front tyre pressures a bit higher then the rear, 2psi is a good difference

[joneblaze]

stripper's kick says:

wtf

stripper's kick says:

alright moron relpy number 1

stripper's kick says:

To reduce understeer you can do the following

- Better tyres

- 1 degree negative camber on the front

- Get some adjustable caster bushes and wind on more caster

- Bigger swaybars all around, but have the fronts a bit softer then the rears

- Have the front tyre pressures a bit higher then the rear, 2psi is a good difference





ROFL

[Chi]

I know how to gain massive over steer lol

this is from experience.

[bennjamin]

http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/Dampers.html

[kousoku]

lol chi do tell do tell. and can someone explain my question plzzzz!!!!

[aaronng]

Thicker rear sway, and once you are in the turn, just lift off the accelerator quickly for some accel-off oversteer. Haha. Serious... :)

[Chi]

to gain massive over steer u need the following

C pillar bar.
Rear strut bar
Rear sway bar and tie bar
Floor bar
stiff rear damper shocks and springs.
Federal tyres.
Carbing 3 point font strut.
Stock EK4 chasis brace.
36 psi on all tyres ( lol forgot to lower it hahaha)

[bennjamin]

how about just crappy rear tyres and "lift off"....oversteer in any car :)

[kousoku]

cheers ben good link mate.

always got the info i need

[joneblaze]

I know how to gain massive over steer lol

this is from experience.


ROFL.

[Chi]

or u can do incomings technique.

Semis @ the front.

Street tyres on the rear lol

[Domokun SPL]

Ok then, to reply directly to your questions

Think about this, have you ever driven a car with stiff front suspension? Stiffer front suspension will cause more rigidity in the front end, where this rigitity can and most probably will be transformed into understeer when going around a corner. This comes from the fact that if there is more stiffness, there is less ability in the suspension to "absorb" the "turning energy" of the car when turning a corner, where this extra energy will be kept as momentum, transfered to the wheels, causing understeer. Similar will apply is the rear is stiffer then the front, it will cause the rear to become more "solid" and therefore promote oversteer, but what is right depends on the balance of the car originally.

The problem with many aftermarket suspension kits is that they do not work on the damping as much as they do play with the spring rates. This is specially true for japanese coilover manufactuers who compensate for damping with higher springrates, where this just isnt a suitable solution. With springrates like, 8kg/6kg F/R you will find the difference will be considered an easy(easier) solution to holding the front end up.

Damping is a lot more complex and something that I myself am still learning, but just think of it as controlling of the spring. From what I know, like you said, damping is what comes into play around a corner most, if you go around a corner too quickly, you would think that the quick compression on the spring would have a rebound effect, but stiffer rebound on a spring will help to control that "bounce back". Similar with bound, if the tight is track, the spring will be compressing and decompressing a lot, meaning that you may want to have a lower bound allowing more damping of the spring, opposite for a larger track.

To be honest, there is not much the "at home" user can do in regards to engineering a suspension set up. You are best to get a suspension engineer to design a suspension kit that is suitable for your uses, then release it as a group buy. This is what is currently happening on skylines australia, with many people, including myself, being very happy with the bilstein/whiteline group buys.

[lerroy]

convert the teg to rear wheel drive :P

[incoming]

or u can do incomings technique.

Semis @ the front.

Street tyres on the rear lol

dorifto!!!

[tinkerbell]

cheers ben good link mate.

always got the info i need

PM me if you want some advice :thumbsup:

[saxman]

wow... lots of crap to sift through in here


adding a nice thick rear sway bar and/or removing the front bar will help bring on more oversteer.

If you have adjustable shocks, adjusting the dampening so the rear is stiffer than front will also help a lot.

[Steer^Gimic]

Ok then, to reply directly to your questions

Think about this, have you ever driven a car with stiff front suspension? Stiffer front suspension will cause more rigidity in the front end, where this rigitity can and most probably will be transformed into understeer when going around a corner. This comes from the fact that if there is more stiffness, there is less ability in the suspension to "absorb" the "turning energy" of the car when turning a corner, where this extra energy will be kept as momentum, transfered to the wheels, causing understeer. Similar will apply is the rear is stiffer then the front, it will cause the rear to become more "solid" and therefore promote oversteer, but what is right depends on the balance of the car originally.

The problem with many aftermarket suspension kits is that they do not work on the damping as much as they do play with the spring rates. This is specially true for japanese coilover manufactuers who compensate for damping with higher springrates, where this just isnt a suitable solution. With springrates like, 8kg/6kg F/R you will find the difference will be considered an easy(easier) solution to holding the front end up.

Damping is a lot more complex and something that I myself am still learning, but just think of it as controlling of the spring. From what I know, like you said, damping is what comes into play around a corner most, if you go around a corner too quickly, you would think that the quick compression on the spring would have a rebound effect, but stiffer rebound on a spring will help to control that "bounce back". Similar with bound, if the tight is track, the spring will be compressing and decompressing a lot, meaning that you may want to have a lower bound allowing more damping of the spring, opposite for a larger track.

To be honest, there is not much the "at home" user can do in regards to engineering a suspension set up. You are best to get a suspension engineer to design a suspension kit that is suitable for your uses, then release it as a group buy. This is what is currently happening on skylines australia, with many people, including myself, being very happy with the bilstein/whiteline group buys.

i actually understood that, thanks for the simplification :thumbsup:

and i dont understand why you 'mods' dont block half of the bullsh!t replies. i think there has been an overall of two or three decent comments in this thread.

[ctn]

Get a bigger swaybar or play with tyre pressures. On my tyre (gsd3), optimum pressure is ~36psi. Going less makes it slide more, going up in pressure makes it jumpy more. So better to go down than up.

Dont get oversteer by making the rear firmer, or you will get oversteer that is not controllable.

Im trying to dial out oversteer in my n15 sss.
Small settings I do changes it from oversteer -> understeer -> oversteer.

Very hard to get it to neutral with a touch of oversteer.

[iamhappy46]

Fit rear swaybar(or larger one), get adjustable castor rods to improve turn-in, convert all rubber bushes to polyurethane, 20~40mm lowered springs + shocks valved to suit = very stable honda

[aaronng]

Get a bigger swaybar or play with tyre pressures. On my tyre (gsd3), optimum pressure is ~36psi. Going less makes it slide more, going up in pressure makes it jumpy more. So better to go down than up.

Dont get oversteer by making the rear firmer, or you will get oversteer that is not controllable.

Im trying to dial out oversteer in my n15 sss.
Small settings I do changes it from oversteer -> understeer -> oversteer.

Very hard to get it to neutral with a touch of oversteer.
Increasing tyre pressures, and using a bigger swaybar is making the rear firmer. :p

[Limbo]

hehe hard compound tyres on the rear will promote oversteer. Also hard swaybar.
It all depends on how you wanna drive and how much understeer/oversteer you want.

But i recommend you get all the braces and get an adjustable rear swaybar and play with the rear adjustment. If you have adjustable shocks this will also help but you will need to track it heaps before you figure out what setup works for you.

[ctn]

Increasing tyre pressures, and using a bigger swaybar is making the rear firmer. :p

It's a different type of firmer :P.

Swaybar is more like changing the spring rate than damper firmness.
Tyre pressure is more about contact patch.

[Domokun SPL]

Well, its a funny thing about that.

Ive found higher tyre pressures improve handling greatly, specially when pressures drop back down to 33 area. I usually have about 36 rear and 38 front, but thats due to my cars weight distribution and I like a stiffer front end.

However, that contradicts the idea of a tyre "contact" area being greater with lower PSI's...you would think more contact, more hold etc. Well, youll find the tyre is rolling off the rim, or moving around alot (specially ones with crappy sidewalls) and creating a lot of unstability. Also, a firmer tyre will mean a firmer turn because of the "fake" increase in stiffness in the suspension. So really, its a pretty big balance you need to work out.

I suggest that you dont play with tyre pressures too much, work out a good set of pressures for yourself, then set up the rest of the suspension around that. Dont set up the suspension, then start screwing around with tyre pressures.

[saleeb]

I got front and rear sway bars, prelude already had both, but bigger and now the difference between them is greater than it used to be, rear is thicker. I used to get a fair bit of roll and under steer but now hardly any roll and i'm actually getting a little over steer now.

best mod for no draw back, ie getting oversteer by increasing rear grip rather than reduce front end grip and just as smooth to drive :)

[ctn]

ie getting oversteer by increasing rear grip rather than reduce front end grip

Oversteer is when the rear grips less than the front.

What you are saying is you got more understeer by increasing rear grip.

[saleeb]

sorry, easy to get confused, relatively ur increasing grip all round, but more so on the front