Swap Complete Car Wont Start?!!

[krasyvy]

ok so swap and wiring all pretty much done


car wont start

i hear fuel pumping around the entire system so i knnow it's not fuel

could it be the injectors?

i disconnected one and turned the key twice - one of the pins on the injectors showed voltage with a test light, the other little pin didn't...

does that mean something?

what else could it be?

i was told if timing was off by anything it wont start?

compression seems fine. fuel (as i said) is fine.

spark plugs are in the right order..

pretty sure everything is grounded fine


all the points on my main relay are showing voltage with a test light except for the pin that goes to A7..

according to my diagram, A7 shows FPR. Can anyone confirm this?

What is FPR.....fuel pressure regulator?

ANy ideas?

[vtecbrad]

Hey what type of car do u have and what motor? any kill switches? does it have an alarm with immobiliser? how long have you had the car?

[Banana]

mayb throttle cable?

[krasyvy]

throttle cable affects startup??

eg dual carb converted to efi and a d15b engine

alarm has been removed

no kill switches...

[Slow96GSR]

Does it try to turn over at all? The Fuel Pressure Regulator shouldn't have any electrical connections. Yes if the timing is off by a little bit it will not start. The ECU will compensate for 16 degrees to 24 degrees off. Check all the sensors but mostly the crank position sensor. The wires to it can get caught and cut. If it’s not cranking at all check the starter and the grounds.

[krasyvy]

its cranking so the starter is fine

where is the crank position sensor?

should i remove it and test it with a test light?

when i tested the injectors it showed voltage with the test light. it's working fine isn't it?

[bennjamin]

its cranking so the starter is fine

where is the crank position sensor?

should i remove it and test it with a test light?

when i tested the injectors it showed voltage with the test light. it's working fine isn't it?

the CAS (crank angle sensor) is located inside the distributor on your sohc afaik ~

[krasyvy]

hmmm so i should disconnect the distributor plugs and check for 12v?


how would i check if that sensor is ok?

[Civic_Si]

the CAS (crank angle sensor) is located inside the distributor on your sohc afaik ~


That's one spot. Also one behind/next to the timming belt pulley at the crank. You can test it by taking off the alt. and checking at the grey clip by the alt. I'll get some pics here soon. If you have to pull the whole sensor out you have to take apart the timming belt pulley too.
Hope this help.
As for the injectors see if you can find a injector tester. If they have voltage it may not be enough to open up.

[krasyvy]

hmm how will i check the injectors...only with an injector tester?

yeh pics would be nice because i have no idea where this connector is.

[krasyvy]

i might check the timing belt first...

could be the problem.

[ECU-MAN]

start with the basics

- do you get spark
- did you bridge all thoes pins that had that missing cap on that loose connector from you other thread
- undo the fuel line, tuen the IGN on to pos II, does fuel piss out. if you can measure your fuel pressure.
- how sure are you about your firing order
- FLR, is a signal from the ecu to activate the main relay. the ecu will ground this pin

- does your ecu have any codes

[krasyvy]

ok

well definately getting fuel pissing out

how do i check for spark?

yes i bridged those points

firing order is fine

with the CEL - how do i connect it up?

wire one side to a light bulb and ground the other side?

should FLR show up with a test light?

[Weq]

check for spark by pulling a lead off a sparkplug and stick a screwdriver up it. then put the shaft of the driver really close to the valve cover. u should easily see a nice strong spark. if its faint or none at all, u can start ur trouble shooting.

[ECU-MAN]

to wire up the MIL
A13 of the ecu to a globe, then the other end of the globe goes to IGN power 12v

you can test the FLR signal with a test light, but its a ( - ) trigger. so you have to connect the aligator clip of your test light to +12v then the tip of your test light to the FLR.

[krasyvy]

ok well part of the reason is that my timing is off..

when my cam pulley is pointing upwards

the cover for the water pump isn't aligned with the notch on the crankshaft pulley

the notch is about 1-2 cm to the left of the pointer on the water pump cover..


i tried turning the engine over a few times....is there a chance my valves are damaged?

[krasyvy]

thanks for the tips guys i will also try the other things that have been mentioned.

[krasyvy]

another question - as soon as i wire my CEL; will it flash immediately with the code?

[bennjamin]

no. turn the ignition to 2nd click ON (which primes the fuel pump etc) - then the code will show

[krasyvy]

can it be anyb type of light bulb?

like a regular house bulb?

obviously it wont be permanent

cant find a small one at the moment

[krasyvy]

oh, and there is spark i just tested each of my plugs

thanks for the tip WEQ..

[crx_boy7]

if ur motor has not been running for a few months u may need some aerostart to help wake it up also u need a efi feul pump to run efi and u cannot use a carb pump as it has very low pressure
ignition timing at this stage is not important but if ur worried push it all the way back to optimise the timing for low revs making starting it easyer
cam timing is very important and should be set correctly but if its off by 1cm u prob dont hav to worrie
but try aerostart!!! or some feul in a spray pack and spray it through one of the spark plug holes then QUICKLY skerw the plug back in and cranck over

[krasyvy]

ok i will try that

yeh my timing is off by about 1 or 2 cm

how much off would it have to be for it to affect the starting up?

if timing isn't the issue i'm going to have to look into other problems


i know i'm definately getting spark and fuel flowing (yes i'm using efi pump).
My injectors are also fine AFAIK,

[Slow96GSR]

As I said earlier the ECU would start compensate for off timing at 16 to 24 degrees. Any more and it won't start.

[krasyvy]

well my timing is off (as far as i remember) by about 6-10 degrees

will that affect startup?

[ECU-MAN]

well before youplay with timming, confirm you have spark, otherwise forget about it

use WEQ's method,

if you do have spark, take out all your dizzy bolts, then while a freind is cranking yor engine you can try turning the dizzy, even beyond the normal limmits of its guide, as this will test for incorect type of dizzy. turn it both directions.

reson for this is if you have a dizzy from another type of engine the slot in the cam shaft that drives the dizzy may not line up with 0deg TDC for cyl #1 in the dizzy.

I have had this in the past, you would chase yoru tail all day and never know.

aslo your dizzy could be 180 out. eg fireing on # 4 intead of #1. so you leads could be set right but your still out of wack.

to test for this.

rotate the engine to TDC cyl #1 compression stroke, then make sure the rotor button is pointing to the lead for cyl#1, as you turn the crank counter clockwise, it should point to cyl 3, then cyl 4 finishing with cyl 2.

[krasyvy]

thanks for the help.

I have spark (tested it yesterday)

the dizzy is for d15b so should i still try your recomended pointers?

I will also try the last thing u mentioned.

Thanks again.


Also - not sure if this helps or means anything but at a certain point ( i think my leads were out of order ) the engine was not only cranking but it also made that noise where its just about to 'kick' over...like the engine jumped a bit..

But after fixing a few things here and there all it does it crank.

any reason for this?

[bennjamin]

its probably flooded by now too - take out the spark plugs/leads , disconnect the fuel pump/dizzy and turn it over a few times to spray out that fuel too.(mist will spray out of one or tow of the spark holes) (thanks to tinkerbell for that tip)
Then make sure everything is perfect and hook up again and try again...

[krasyvy]

thanks for the tip - i will definately try that

would give rep but cant give it twice

;)

[iamhappy46]

ECU-MAN: Just a tip for dizzy's out 180 degrees, I removed the circlip from the slotted bit that goes into the camshaft, removed the pin, rotated the slotted 'gear' 180 degrees and reassembled.

I am beginning to suspect that the timing belt is out by 1 tooth, which is also stuffing up the dizzy timing, see though the camshaft will be advanced/retarded one tooth and has moved the camshaft/dizzy in relation to the crankshaft.

Check that when the crankshaft pulley is lined up with its notch on the timing belt cover, that the camshaft gear(take top timing belt cover off) is in the right position still.

[Civic_Si]

Here are some pics. You will notice that the crank position sensor isn't on the block but I circled where it goes.

http://www.strathlan.com/TEK/images/sensormount.jpg

Here you can see the cable just a little. The cable is about 30cm long with a grey plug. This should put it near the alt. If you have to pull the sensor out you will have to pull off the crank pulley.

http://www.strathlan.com/TEK/images/sensorcable.jpg

Hope this will help...

[krasyvy]

its probably flooded by now too - take out the spark plugs/leads , disconnect the fuel pump/dizzy and turn it over a few times to spray out that fuel too.(mist will spray out of one or tow of the spark holes) (thanks to tinkerbell for that tip)
Then make sure everything is perfect and hook up again and try again...

hmm nothing sprayed at all

i only disconnected one of the dizzy plugs

will that matter?

i d/c the fuel pump also and the spark plugs were removed

[Slow96GSR]

All the plugs have to be connected for it to work! They all serve a purpose. There might be a empty plug used for diagnostic tools but you would not have taken anything out when you removed the old motor.

[krasyvy]

not sure what u mean by that?

the only reason i removed the plugs was because it might have been flooded...

what are u trying to say?

[krasyvy]

another odd thing - after removing and reinstalling the plugs/leads, I cranked the engine and it 'kicked' again, as if it was about to start.

that happened the first 3 times i tried to start it

then after that all it does is crank, doesn't 'kick' at all

why is it doing that?

EDIT:

my timing is off by half a tooth, if that. definately not one tooth.

[iamhappy46]

The Crankangle sensor is located in the Distributor on all OBD1 cars.

If all else fails, wire up the CEL and find out what fault codes you have. Easy to diagnose from there. Use any 12V automotive bulb to get the flashes. Earth ECU Pin D7 to extract the codes.

[Slow96GSR]

... i only disconnected one of the dizzy plugs

will that matter?

i d/c the fuel pump also and the spark plugs were removed

Read that and tell me what would be bad.... disconnecting one of the dist plugs??? YA!!! I hope you hooked em back up?!

[iamhappy46]

Slow96GSR: For the purpose of making sure the motor was not flooded??
Don't exactly want fuel coming out while your ignition leads are floating around trying to create a spark, huh?!?!

Bit hard to start the car without the spark plugs in and fuel pump off ;)

[Slow96GSR]

Well I was just making sure. I mean I've seen some stupid stuff in my days!!!! Is it story time?!!!

[crx_boy7]

there is so much extra crap in this forum!!!
to clear ur engine of flooding simply cranck with the exelarator on the floor(as advised in the civic instruction manual !!)no need for removing ur plugs (sorry WEQ)

ur dizzi only slots in one way so dont waste ur time removing it and spining it at 180degrees

if u have spark then stop messing around with the dizzi and to check the lead order search d15a and observ some pics of running engines

also follow ur wiring harness to make certain u didnt miss any sensors(this is very important)
then check ur vac lines are all conected in the right place, if ur not sure then follow the same steps as i recomended for the lead kit

to check if ur timing belt skewup did any damage get a compression tester and cranck the motor with the starter (any reading that is higher than 6:1 should start)
and if you havent set your timing belt perfectlly then your car is very likely not to start

BUY SOME AEROSTART this and various spirits is sometimes the only thing that will wake up a tired motor!!

you may also consider the ecu check as this will help you eliminate a possible problem
check ecu wiring and fuses too

[tinkerbell]

ok, you have done very well so far.

i really hope you have not got a valve that is slightly bent and not closing.

it sounds like it *could* start (as you say it is 'kicking' slightly)

now - get a NEW set of clean spark plugs (or borrow), and a FULLY charged battery.

put both in and give it a go.

i reckon it will fire...

[krasyvy]

thanks mate

when u say 'set your timing'

do u mean make sure the camshaft pulley and the crankshaft pulley are aligned before putting on the timing belt?

[crx_boy7]

ask yourself this dose the exhaust tip smell like feul after cranking the motor?? if NOT then buy AEROSTART!!!!!

btw how do you spell dose???

[krasyvy]

yeh spark plugs are brand new

i have a battery charger and i charged it over night...the machine said the battery had fully charged by the morning

it kills me that it 'kicks' like that

would could be the cause of that

[krasyvy]

or more like, what could be stopping it from actually turning over....?

maybe the aerostart will definately try that

[crx_boy7]

camshaft pulley has 2 lines which line up with ur valve cover left to right
and the cranck has three little lines on the rim these should be allianed with a marker or arrow on the block (top dead center)
and now you put ur timing belt on(skrew this up and ur shooting blanks)

[krasyvy]

hmm this might be the reason

i was told that u had to line it up with the single white line and not one of the 3 lines on the crankshaft pulley.

[ECU-MAN]

no dont earth pin D7
thats the DLC TX/RX
earth D4

[crx_boy7]

let me confirm that crank pulley will hav a mark somewhere on the side wittch is clocked to point at a mark whitch is usually a line on the plastic timing belt sheald or an arrow pressed on the block(im reaserching this now

[ECU-MAN]

you mean this


http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/tech/timming-notch.jpg

[crx_boy7]

the three lines should point straight up and there will be a mark ie plastic ridge to line it up perfecto! with the middle line

[ECU-MAN]

another pic of the CKP you dont have


http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/tech/CKP.jpg

[crx_boy7]

you mean this


that is the one!
just line up the three lines to the center of the mark and the cam gear to point horisontally and ur done :thumbsup:

[ECU-MAN]

you talking about valve timming or ignition timming

[crx_boy7]

note the mark on the timing belt sproket is the TDC and will also be shown on the crank pulley this should point straight up, at the mark on the plastic cover

[crx_boy7]

opps sorry , thas the ignt. timing i forgot how to find it but the mark on the sproket should be straight up for tdc

[ECU-MAN]

on the pulley
like you say there are a few marks

| | |......... |

red mark is the ignition timming mark. the single one on its own is TDC should be white

[crx_boy7]

i just had a quick look at a d seres crank which i hav ilying around and the key hole on the cranck is pointing directly to piston 1 TDC but unfortunatly iv lost my crank pulley(SH8t)that will require some money lol

[crx_boy7]

its all coming back to me the tdc is like an inch off from the three lines and from what i remember i lined it up to a mark on the block/not the plastic cover but under it

[krasyvy]

ok what i've done is i've set the single mark on it's own to line up with the notch on the plastic cover..

have i done the right thing here?

you guys are kinda confusin me atm

[krasyvy]

its all coming back to me the tdc is like an inch off from the three lines and from what i remember i lined it up to a mark on the block/not the plastic cover but under it

yep that's exactly what i've done

atleast i know i've got my timing done right

i will check for a CEL tomorrow

thanks guys

[iamhappy46]

Hey man,
Check the CEL, find out what code you have but also do the following.

Pull cyl 1 spark plug out and rotate the engine anti-clockwise until you see the crank pulley notch about to line up, use a torch to look down inside cyl 1 and you will see piston coming up towards you. Piston 1 will reach top of travel when crank pulley lines up with the notch.

Confirm that camshaft gear has the 2 horizontal spokes lining up with top of the head and that notch at 8o'clock position is lined up with pointer. If so, the crankshaft & camshaft are in synchronisation

Remove distributor cap at this point and confirm that rotor button metal face is facing towards the back of your car so that it will line up with cylinder 1 spark plug lead. IF it facing Cylinder 4, you will need to rotate the slotted gear 180 dgrees as previously discussed, so that the rotor button is facing cylinder 1. I have noticed some people re-assemble the distributor wrong when they pull them apart.

Once you have confirmed all this, I would suspect wiring, sensors or ECU. The pic of your TPS sensor you sent me is really bad and I doubt it would do you much good.

Hangon, I just realised what the problem is! I will be on MSN when you finish work man, so I can send some pics to you.

For everyone else, the Australian Si wiring harness is being used with the VTi(P28) ECU but on the Jap D15B VTEC motor... What ECU signal is missing that would prevent the motor from starting? Clue: VTi has 4 wires, the EG D15B VTEC has 1 wire...

[krasyvy]

hmm so the d16z6 has a 4 wire o2 sensor?

hmmm

and d15b only 1 wire.....

[tinkerbell]

engine will start without a o2 sensor attached...

[krasyvy]

oh ok

so it wouldn't even matter if my ecu is for an engine with a 4wire o2 sensor and my engine harness is for a 1 wire sensor?

[tinkerbell]

not, unless the engine wiring harness sent the wrong wires to the ECU as a result of this difference.

i do not have wiring diargrams for D15B so can't tell you for sure... but i would guess that they use the same ECU pin-outs on all EG Civics...

so i dotn think it would be a issue to start teh car.

YOU NEED to check the CEL - this is the best way to diagnose a fault with the engine (or ECU)...

[[[d a n n y]]]

maybe u hooked up your ECU wires wrong

[krasyvy]

yeh i definately - i'll do that as soon as i get home from work

so ground d4...

and with a small light bulb. feed 12v to one and and the CEL pin on the ecu?

[krasyvy]

]']maybe u hooked up your ECU wires wrong

could u be anymore specific?


i tested the necessities for startup.

ie. injectors getting voltage while cranking

relay feeding 12v out of all it's pins (bar 1 AFAIK)

pump getting 12v


it could be the tps - the plastic cover has broken but the inside still looks intact

the CEL should reveal all

[crx_boy7]

ok i found my pulley and from what u said u did it correct
the line that is in front of the three should be directly in the middle of the mark on the plastic cover for Top Dead Cented and the cam pulley horisontal to the valve cover

allways set ur cam timing this way and dont move it forward or backward
the teeth on the belt should slot in and fine tuning is not nessecary

[[[d a n n y]]]

how did u go about the fuel lines?
maybe they aint hooked up right.

[krasyvy]

read my previous posts man

fuel is fine

[tinkerbell]

yeah danny - constructive assistance is required, not random chatter...

we are waiting on MIL results,

and/or what iamhappy46 has got to say from post #62...

[[[d a n n y]]]

okay sorry didnt read that far back...
well when i did my coversion.
ididnt hook the fuel lines up properly and i was loosing pressure all the way.
so it didnt get enuff fuel to spark up
and also my distributor was gone.

[krasyvy]

hmm so i earthed pin D4 as ECU-MAN said...wired 1 side to a 12v source and the other end to pin A13 on the ecu

am i doing that right?

i get no flashing

[iamhappy46]

Pin D4 to earth, 12V source to one side of CEL bulb and other side of bulb connects to A13. Turn ignition switch to 'ON' position and bulb should begin flashing codes.

From memory the bulb will flash atleast twice or the ECU is the fault. Anyone confirm this?

Just been going over the wiring diagrams for the Si, the VTi and my own D15B VTEC wiring diagram.

Mike, can you confirm that A25 and B1 receive power when the key is in both the ON and START positions for me??

Can you confirm that D1 is getting 12V from a constant battery source? Your test light will light up in all 4 key positions(Off, Acc, ON & Start)

Make sure your TPS, MAP and IACV have 12V power on one wire

[ECU-MAN]

did you run a wire from the ecu loom to the Vtec wire ?????

also with out d4 grounded you light should come on when you 1st turn the ignition on to pos II

[iamhappy46]

I am talking to him on MSN, D1 was not connected to 12V constant, so no ECU codes can be recorded.

Hopefully, the ECU is OK and nothing serious has happened to it. Fingers crossed it is just a sensor or simple wiring error

[tinkerbell]

obviously wasnt good news then?

[iamhappy46]

I am sending krasyvy a complete listing of ECU plug voltages that should be expected to & from the P28 ECU.

[krasyvy]

ok so she starts. how? I dont know for sure.

I turned the dizzy all the way in one direction and it wouldn't 'kick' when cranking.

I turned it all the way in the other direction and it would kick everytime.

Then I bolted up my exhaust, did a few things here and there such as inserts the axles etc..and we thought we would try and give her another go, see if she starts.

Now it starts almost everytime we try but with severe cranking required.

It starts, runs for awhile with my foot on the throttle and then stalls, even with my foot on full throttle.

It wont start if i dont have my foot on the throttle.

What could this be?

Timing of some sort?

ECU problems?

What could this be?

[Slow96GSR]

Check all timing... belt and dist. You're getting closer.

[krasyvy]

would it be timing related rather than ecu related?

i am getting a solid cel

[Slow96GSR]

Timing can throw a light. Unless you have a diag. scanner I would recheck the timing. Then have someone check the light. Should blink as you turn the car on. Count how many times it flashes then check it with the code sheet. I'll find that and post it later or tell me what you come up with and I'll check.

[iamhappy46]

Get ready with a multimeter man, put the earth probe onto a good, clean earth.
IO = Ignition in ON position

All these are done with the car not started.

A1,2,3&5: IO = 11~14V
A4: IO = 0V
A7&8: IO = 0V~1V briefly when turned to ON position, then 11V~14V
A9: IO = 11~14V
A13: IO = 0~1V if CEL is ON, 11-14V if CEL is OFF
A16: Alternator, no reading given
A21/22: IO = 10V
A23/24: IO = 0V
A25/B1: IO = 11-14V
A26/B2: IO = 0V
B7: IO = 11~14V
B8: IO = 0~1V(steering wheel straight ahead)
B9: IO = 0V
D1: IO = 11~14V
D9: IO = 1.5V
D11: IO = 0.5V with throttle closed, 4.5V with throttle open
D13: IO = 3.4V with engine cold, 0.5V with engine warm
D15: IO = 3.5V at 15 degree ambient temp
D17: IO = 3V
D19: IO = 5V
D20: IO = 5V
D21: IO = 0V
D22: IO = 0V

Hope that helps

[krasyvy]

my radiator fan isn't running - should i be alarmed about this at all?
the car starts and runs without stalling - as far as i can see..

[krasyvy]

also - the car wont run when i close the throttle.

this obviously isn't normal is it?

what could that be due to?

[bennjamin]

i havent read all the way thru but TPS issue ? throttle body is gunk-free too?

[ECU-MAN]

I have to ask

is your distributor 100% from your engine. not one similar or one from a USDM blah blah blah

I think you should take all your dizzy bolts out and try turning it a little bit further in the direction of where it kicked

with a solid cel, id say you have a wiring problem, not related so much to sensor but to main system wiring to ecu.

when you say you get a solid cel, you mean your getting the engine check light stay always on when you bridge D4 on the ECU to ground. not just with it not grounded

[SiR JDM]

I was going to say (before john), isn't the Dizzy not from the original motor? just another D series one?

John would that be a problem? or are all the d series ones compatble?

[krasyvy]

TPS is damaged slightly - would that be the issue that's causing it to stall when i close the throttle?

it will run fine if the throttle is open.

dizzy is from d15b.

i had to adjust it for it to finally start
TB has been cleaned thoroughly.

[krasyvy]

what would cause it to stall when throttle is closed?

[ECU-MAN]

if you know your tps is damages you shouls change it

as in the last page, do the voltage test.

replace the TPS.

[iamhappy46]

For radiator fan, what is A12 and A15 connected to??

[krasyvy]

i will check for you

what should it be connected to?

[iamhappy46]

A12 is for your radiator fan
A15 is A/C clutch relay

If they are not connected to anything, let me know and I can let you know what needs to go where.

[krasyvy]

A15 is not connected yet

A12 there is no wire there...wtf?

[krasyvy]

B7 B10 and D7 are also unconnected wires.

[ECU-MAN]

D7 goes to the 3 pin DLC connector

B10 must go to you VSS

dont worry about D7, its only for Auto

[krasyvy]

any idea why my A12 is non-existant?

[ECU-MAN]

because the D15 ECU (P06 ) does not controll the AC

[krasyvy]

i have a p28 ecu with a d16y1 ( something d-series) ecu plug

[ECU-MAN]

so what was your loom from

[krasyvy]

interior loom was from a d-series engine

not 100% sure which engine

think it was d16y1 or d16a8

[ECU-MAN]

thats probably why A 12 is not connected

[krasyvy]

ok so will the radiator fan run?

[ECU-MAN]

bridge out the thermo switch and find out.

[krasyvy]

i'm sorry i dont understand what u mean by that...

[ECU-MAN]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36360&highlight=thermo+fan

[krasyvy]

ok so i unplug it and put a paperclip in each end of the plug to start the fan?

[iamhappy46]

A12 is the radiator fan relay on the EG VTi wiring diagram, it is able to short the regular temp switch to engage the radiator fan when the A/C is on or if the switch fails to open(safety measue in case switch dies)

The P08 ECU(D15B VTEC) does control A/C control, my ECU works perfectly controlling A/C idle up, A/C fan and pressure switch. The P28 VTi ECU also controls A/C so A15 is the A/C clutch relay.

[krasyvy]

just an update on whats happening

the motor is running

it wont run with butterfly on TB closed so I have it open just to run the engine in atm.

What could be causing this?

The fact that the throttle needs to be open in order for the car to idle...??

[iamhappy46]

Have you checked those voltages I listed. They will diagnose the problem much better. I suspect the TPS has wrong voltages but I need to confirm this.
Once I know which voltages are different, it will be easy to work out what is wrong